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England's Summer of Cricket 2023, Featuring The Ashes

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Post by Duty281 Mon 19 Jun 2023, 7:10 pm

Well done to Scott Boland, a very tidy job and added precious runs.

Another fantastic day in a fantastic test in a fantastic rivalry in a fantastic sport. Fantastic.

And just as the pattern has been throughout, when one team looked to be taking control, it just got yanked back. And it was Broad yanking it back with a brilliant spell. Labuschagne is the new Warner, as far as Broad's concerned.

174 to get. Seven wickets left. Still favouring Australia, but it'll be interesting to see how the bowling conditions are after the expected rain tomorrow. If they're anything close to what England's top order had to face yesterday, it could be curtains for Australia, but I'm not anticipating it to be that bad.

Will almost certainly be a delayed start. Hopefully the BBC's more pessimistic forecast doesn't come to fruition.

It'll probably go to the wire, that's the way the whole test has been shaping up. Might even be a tied test...

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Post by guildfordbat Mon 19 Jun 2023, 7:28 pm

alfie wrote:Guildford ...I fear we've been undone this time by that blessed night watchman. 13 off 19 he's looking a threat !

Lively last hour , eh ?

Analysis can wait to the real morning I think. And perhaps KP_fan will have the probabilities for us in a few hours...

Alfie - lets cut back on the worry gutting, eh? Hug We should still get Boland early in the morning to give the bowlers an extra lift and increase the chances of a decent batsman being left stranded when the 10th wicket fails.

Failing that, just count Boland's runs and the extra points he's chalking up for us in Joey's comp! Wink

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Post by KP_fan Mon 19 Jun 2023, 10:04 pm

Eng should have gotten more but not surprised how they batted and have decent runs on board. Trying to bat differently might have seen them getting even less.

Eng were 55-45 ahead at the start of 4th inning.
Opening stand got Aus 55-45 ahead.
Broad's double strike got Eng 55-45 ahead
And that Boland 13* and 20 run partnership are pure bonus runs and put Aus 55-45 ahead again.

Aus would so dearly wish Boland stays with Khawaja until target comes down below 150

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Post by Duty281 Tue 20 Jun 2023, 12:01 am

Just checking the weather again for tomorrow. Met Office reckoning rain, with some heavy rain, from about 04:00 until 11:00/12:00. Afterwards, dry, mostly light cloud with some sunshine, until 19:00, when there could be some thunderstorms. BBC Weather saying the same for the early part, with the rain easing off around 13:00. However the BBC reckon there's a constant, but low, threat of rain throughout the day, with some dark cloud and some sunshine. But it'll change again when I check tomorrow morning.

Weather forecasting...it's barely more advanced than reading my horoscope! I think it's fair to say we can't entirely rule out the rain causing a draw, but it looks likely there'll be enough time for a result.

At the current pace of the innings, Australia need only around 50 overs to win the game. Maybe even less than that if Head and/or Carey get in and start scoring fluently. So that's the timeframe England have got to take the seven wickets.

Personally, unless they get assistance from overhead like Australia did on Day Three, I don't think England will be able to take seven wickets in that time. Khawaja is in the form of his life, 175 runs and counting so far. Head's also in quality form, scoring a century v India and getting a 50 in the first innings. And Carey, also, going fine, with a 50 v India and a 66 in the first innings here. Plus the Aussies have got Green, a useful batsman, and Cummins can certainly ping a few into the stands.

I can't say England's bowlers have showed comparable form in this test. Broad, obviously, has been magnificent, getting the ball to move both ways and taking five of England's 13 wickets thus far. But he is just one bowler, and I don't think his teammates are backing him up. Anderson, as we've all noted, has been very poor in this test, and even his fabled control has disappeared in this innings (economy 4.57); while Robinson has been mostly ineffectual, although he is always capable of producing magic from nowhere, as he showed when he got Warner.

The main issue, however, is the spin. It's a turning track. It's the sort of wicket where, in the fourth innings, the fielding side should be looking to their spinner to take 4+ wickets and bowl their side to victory. Lyon picked up 8 of England's 20, sorry 18, wickets, more than any other Australian. England by contrast have got Moeen, who's taken 2/171 on a helpful surface, is very expensive, and appears to be struggling to actually bowl with his finger issue. Otherwise, it's Root. Big error of Stokes and McCullum to pick Moeen, when better options were available. And it may just cost England dearly.

We also have to consider the old ball. It's 30 overs old. England probably won't be getting a second one and, even if they do, Australia will be so close to victory it probably won't be worth it. We can actually draw a parallel between the first and second innings. In the first Australian innings, they were three down after 30 overs, just as they are now; and the three dismissed were Warner, Labuschagne and Smith, the same as now. And from overs 30-80 in the first innings, Australia racked up 186/2, as England struggled to make any inroads, with Robinson banging in 78mph bouncers a particular low point. So England will need to be significantly better from overs 30-80 in the second innings if they are to win.

65/35 in Australia's favour for me (ignoring the draw), but that'll come down if they're taking to the field tomorrow under dark, menacing clouds.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue 20 Jun 2023, 6:57 am

Duty281 wrote:Just checking the weather again for tomorrow. Met Office reckoning rain, with some heavy rain, from about 04:00 until 11:00/12:00. Afterwards, dry, mostly light cloud with some sunshine, until 19:00, when there could be some thunderstorms. BBC Weather saying the same for the early part, with the rain easing off around 13:00. However the BBC reckon there's a constant, but low, threat of rain throughout the day, with some dark cloud and some sunshine. But it'll change again when I check tomorrow morning.

Weather forecasting...it's barely more advanced than reading my horoscope! I think it's fair to say we can't entirely rule out the rain causing a draw, but it looks likely there'll be enough time for a result.

At the current pace of the innings, Australia need only around 50 overs to win the game. Maybe even less than that if Head and/or Carey get in and start scoring fluently. So that's the timeframe England have got to take the seven wickets.

Personally, unless they get assistance from overhead like Australia did on Day Three, I don't think England will be able to take seven wickets in that time. Khawaja is in the form of his life, 175 runs and counting so far. Head's also in quality form, scoring a century v India and getting a 50 in the first innings. And Carey, also, going fine, with a 50 v India and a 66 in the first innings here. Plus the Aussies have got Green, a useful batsman, and Cummins can certainly ping a few into the stands.

I can't say England's bowlers have showed comparable form in this test. Broad, obviously, has been magnificent, getting the ball to move both ways and taking five of England's 13 wickets thus far. But he is just one bowler, and I don't think his teammates are backing him up. Anderson, as we've all noted, has been very poor in this test, and even his fabled control has disappeared in this innings (economy 4.57); while Robinson has been mostly ineffectual, although he is always capable of producing magic from nowhere, as he showed when he got Warner.

The main issue, however, is the spin. It's a turning track. It's the sort of wicket where, in the fourth innings, the fielding side should be looking to their spinner to take 4+ wickets and bowl their side to victory. Lyon picked up 8 of England's 20, sorry 18, wickets, more than any other Australian. England by contrast have got Moeen, who's taken 2/171 on a helpful surface, is very expensive, and appears to be struggling to actually bowl with his finger issue. Otherwise, it's Root. Big error of Stokes and McCullum to pick Moeen, when better options were available. And it may just cost England dearly.

We also have to consider the old ball. It's 30 overs old. England probably won't be getting a second one and, even if they do, Australia will be so close to victory it probably won't be worth it. We can actually draw a parallel between the first and second innings. In the first Australian innings, they were three down after 30 overs, just as they are now; and the three dismissed were Warner, Labuschagne and Smith, the same as now. And from overs 30-80 in the first innings, Australia racked up 186/2, as England struggled to make any inroads, with Robinson banging in 78mph bouncers a particular low point. So England will need to be significantly better from overs 30-80 in the second innings if they are to win.

65/35 in Australia's favour for me (ignoring the draw), but that'll come down if they're taking to the field tomorrow under dark, menacing clouds.

It's almost like you had that sentence ready to go before the game Duty!

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Post by alfie Tue 20 Jun 2023, 6:57 am

guildfordbat wrote:
alfie wrote:Guildford ...I fear we've been undone this time by that blessed night watchman. 13 off 19 he's looking a threat !

Lively last hour , eh ?

Analysis can wait to the real morning I think. And perhaps KP_fan will have the probabilities for us in a few hours...

Alfie - lets cut back on the worry gutting, eh? Hug We should still get Boland early in the morning to give the bowlers an extra lift and increase the chances of a decent batsman being left stranded when the 10th wicket fails.

Failing that, just count Boland's runs and the extra points he's chalking up for us in Joey's comp! Wink

Hey I didn't mean I was hugely worried about Boland as a potential destroyer (though if he gets fifty it would be a bit of a blow !).

But our whole "night watchman , bah !" Shtick is undermined when a number 11 gets double figures . So he has to go quickly in the morning , eh ?

Good point about the PJ comp Wink

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Post by KP_fan Tue 20 Jun 2023, 7:02 am

Duty281 wrote:

The main issue, however, is the spin. It's a turning track. It's the sort of wicket where, in the fourth innings, the fielding side should be looking to their spinner to take 4+ wickets and bowl their side to victory. Lyon picked up 8 of England's 20, sorry 18, wickets, more than any other Australian. England by contrast have got Moeen, who's taken 2/171 on a helpful surface, is very expensive, and appears to be struggling to actually bowl with his finger issue.  

All of Eng relying on Moeen with an injured finger to win them the Ashes first test

It's Moeen's responsibility to match the most successful off spinner in Aus glorious history with 500 wickets and that too with a bleeding hole in his finger to bowl Eng to a win and justify his inclusion.
The bar is quite reasonably set for Moeen  England's Summer of Cricket 2023, Featuring The Ashes 1f601

On a serious note....Moeen is a 3 to 4 wkts / test match bowler and he was doing OK in the first inning until he aggravated the blister
He might still chip in with a couple of wickets.

The real let down has been Anderson and even Robinson inspite of his wickets has not troubled the batters.
He needs a bit more in the pitch to be effective..


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Post by alfie Tue 20 Jun 2023, 7:22 am

Well that was another day of ups and downs was it not ?  Not sure I totally agree with all KP_fan's 10% swings of power , but certainly there were times both sides appeared on the brink of reaching an unassailable position : neither has yet done so.

I had Australia slightly ahead start of day : England racing away when Root and Brook were in full flight - and on the brink of defeat when Stokes got out. But the tail end runs got it back to even (just about) ; and despite a very good opening stand from Warner and Khawaja it hasn't moved too far from that position. I make it very much 50/50 now (with a fair chance rain could trump either, of course)

Conditions on Tuesday might have a big say. Will we see a lot of uneven bounce ? As Duty says , the spin factor can be discounted with Moeen unlikely to bowl much due to his injury. If it is overcast and the ball moves - a very different picture to most of this match. And if a lot of time is lost to rain , how will that impact the way both sides adjust their tactics ?

You'd generally think a side with seven in hand would quite fancy another 170 odd on a basically good pitch. But nerves play a huge part in these chases as there is always the feeling that a couple of errors could cause a meltdown. Sometimes even gets worse with relatively small targets. What was that stat : only two successful Edgbaston chases over 200 ? From quite a big sample !

Will be interesting to see how Stokes approaches this. All out attack or a bit of a mix ? Part of me says just go for the throat ; but on the other hand I reckon the longer Australia have to spend moving the requirement down the more chance those nerves will cause fatal mistakes. Going to require a balance , no ? Like maybe not too many full tosses with the field all up...

Loath to make a prediction : but while for most of the last three days I've felt Australia were likely to prevail (tortoise bagging hare at the tape) I am actually the most optimistic for England I've been since day one. Stuart Broad to take a five-for and a win by somewhere between 35 and 3 runs ?

Nah , just kidding - I really haven't got a clue Smile

Keeping the bottle of scotch handy for tonight though...

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Post by sirfredperry Tue 20 Jun 2023, 7:49 am

It might be argued that England can take heart from the fact that most of the narrowest of Ashes victories over the years have gone to....England.

England won by one wicket in the famous Jessop match at The Oval in 1902 and also triumphed with their last pair together at Melbourne in 1907-08.

England also finished on top by three runs at Melbourne in 1982-83, by two runs at Edgbaston in 2005 and by one wicket at Leeds in 2019.

At least Australia can point to the 1882 match at the Oval (a victory by seven runs which sparked the famous Ashes obit notice) and there was an 11-run win at Adelaide in 1924-25.

Other close finishes include an England win by 12 runs at Adelaide in 1928-29, an England win by 18 runs at Leeds in 1981 and an Australian win by 28 runs at Melbourne in 1950-51.

I've probably missed some other close encounters. May be today we'll get the first Ashes tie.




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Post by mountain man Tue 20 Jun 2023, 7:50 am

To borrow a phrase :

"Test cricket, bloody hell!"

Problem going to come on 1st July when TdF starts for 3 weeks. I'll be watching racing with TMS on.

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Post by VTR Tue 20 Jun 2023, 7:56 am

It's minging I'm The Midlands today. Going to be a bowling day if ever there was one. Damp to liven up the pitch and not likely to see much sun. This is England's chance, it shouldn't even be remotely reliant on Moeen today

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Post by VTR Tue 20 Jun 2023, 8:05 am

To add to close finishes, England won a Test by about 15 runs in the 98/99 series. Also the first Test in 2013 was won by something like 20 runs, though arguably should never have been close.

Trent Bridge 2005 was 3 wickets, with an entire hutch of Warne's bunnies waiting to come in

I would caveat that England have often made heavy weather of getting over the line, whereas Australia have thrashed England many, many times

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Post by No name Bertie Tue 20 Jun 2023, 8:08 am

Which side will be most disappointed if it ends in a draw from here (let's say not enough overs due to weather) and which side is most likely to make changes for test 2? It seems to me Moeen needs to be replaced and maybe one of the seamers.
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Post by mountain man Tue 20 Jun 2023, 8:25 am

England would be. They have stated the so called "Bazball" is all about winning. They have been by far most positive on both sides, Australia curiously defensive for them as usually they are the aggressors.


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Post by alfie Tue 20 Jun 2023, 8:35 am

No name Bertie wrote:Which side will be most disappointed if it ends in a draw from here (let's say not enough overs due to weather) and which side is most likely to make changes for test 2?  It seems to me Moeen needs to be replaced and maybe one of the seamers.

Guess that would depend on the situation when time ran out ? If Australia were 250/5 they'd be seriously peeved. Likewise 198/8 and England would be cursing...

Think we can leave second match selection until the dust clears and the medical team's reports are in.

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Post by eirebilly_01 Tue 20 Jun 2023, 8:50 am

So far this test has taught me that my initial gut feelings (although a huge Moeen fan) that Moeen is simply not up to the task due to lack of red ball cricket and the strains contained with it. He needs to be dropped.
Broad is still England's best bowler in the Ashes, it really is a joy watching him.
Bairstow, as good a batter as he is, is just not a test wicket keeper.
Crawley has probably had his one good innings per series so could be a liability now.
Root, is simply brilliant and the rock of the team.

Boland as good and as tight he is, was always going to be found out by the English batters on their own soil.
I had expected more from Warner and thought he would do well but he is again pretty average.
Smith/Marnus, never expected such low scores from them but the have been contained well.

Going into next test, I would replace Moeen with Rehan/Dawson. Either select Bairstow as a batsman for Pope (harsh on Pope) or replace him with Foakes. Foakes scores runs as well. Crawley still worries me but I would give one more test.

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Post by sirfredperry Tue 20 Jun 2023, 8:58 am

VTR wrote:To add to close finishes, England won a Test by about 15 runs in the 98/99 series. Also the first Test in 2013 was won by something like 20 runs, though arguably should never have been close.

Trent Bridge 2005 was 3 wickets, with an entire hutch of Warne's bunnies waiting to come in

I would caveat that England have often made heavy weather of getting over the line, whereas Australia have thrashed England many, many times

Yeah, forgot these. Eng won by 12 runs at Melbourne in 98/99 and by 14 runs at Nottingham in 2013. In the second of the Botham Miracle Trio of matches in 1981 England won by 29 runs at Birmingham.

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Post by VTR Tue 20 Jun 2023, 9:08 am

What if Moeen takes a five for with Bairstow pulling off a series of increasingly agile catches and stumpings? OK, there's more chance of Ravi Bopara being recalled to the side, but it is that old adage of pick the side for the next match after the current one has finished

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Post by No name Bertie Tue 20 Jun 2023, 9:18 am

At the start of day five and as someone who would prefer England to win I would take a draw without a further ball being played.   I don't know much about this "bazball" thing but reading mountain man's comment convinces me he is right - if this bazball is all about positive striving for the win (win or lose) then England would be most disappointed in not getting that opportunity for this final day.   So on my part I will stop my rain dance and hope for a reasonable period of dry weather so that play is possible.  

Taking a quick look at this bazball style of play it seems that Jack Leach was an integral part of it - a spinner with control able to stop up one end while giving seamers a rest.   It seems that maybe Moeen's lack of Test play in recent years has softened his skin.


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Post by eirebilly_01 Tue 20 Jun 2023, 9:20 am

VTR wrote:What if Moeen takes a five for with Bairstow pulling off a series of increasingly agile catches and stumpings? OK, there's more chance of Ravi Bopara being recalled to the side, but it is that old adage of pick the side for the next match after the current one has finished

To be honest VTR, even after 4 days its pretty clear to me. Win Lose or Draw this match, my mind is made up. Not that it matters Sweet FA Very Happy

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Tue 20 Jun 2023, 9:28 am

VTR wrote:What if Moeen takes a five for with Bairstow pulling off a series of increasingly agile catches and stumpings? OK, there's more chance of Ravi Bopara being recalled to the side, but it is that old adage of pick the side for the next match after the current one has finished

Also plenty of time for folk to get injured between tests, or pull up lame after this one. Not worth discussing till a week from now really
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Post by Duty281 Tue 20 Jun 2023, 9:38 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Just checking the weather again for tomorrow. Met Office reckoning rain, with some heavy rain, from about 04:00 until 11:00/12:00. Afterwards, dry, mostly light cloud with some sunshine, until 19:00, when there could be some thunderstorms. BBC Weather saying the same for the early part, with the rain easing off around 13:00. However the BBC reckon there's a constant, but low, threat of rain throughout the day, with some dark cloud and some sunshine. But it'll change again when I check tomorrow morning.

Weather forecasting...it's barely more advanced than reading my horoscope! I think it's fair to say we can't entirely rule out the rain causing a draw, but it looks likely there'll be enough time for a result.

At the current pace of the innings, Australia need only around 50 overs to win the game. Maybe even less than that if Head and/or Carey get in and start scoring fluently. So that's the timeframe England have got to take the seven wickets.

Personally, unless they get assistance from overhead like Australia did on Day Three, I don't think England will be able to take seven wickets in that time. Khawaja is in the form of his life, 175 runs and counting so far. Head's also in quality form, scoring a century v India and getting a 50 in the first innings. And Carey, also, going fine, with a 50 v India and a 66 in the first innings here. Plus the Aussies have got Green, a useful batsman, and Cummins can certainly ping a few into the stands.

I can't say England's bowlers have showed comparable form in this test. Broad, obviously, has been magnificent, getting the ball to move both ways and taking five of England's 13 wickets thus far. But he is just one bowler, and I don't think his teammates are backing him up. Anderson, as we've all noted, has been very poor in this test, and even his fabled control has disappeared in this innings (economy 4.57); while Robinson has been mostly ineffectual, although he is always capable of producing magic from nowhere, as he showed when he got Warner.

The main issue, however, is the spin. It's a turning track. It's the sort of wicket where, in the fourth innings, the fielding side should be looking to their spinner to take 4+ wickets and bowl their side to victory. Lyon picked up 8 of England's 20, sorry 18, wickets, more than any other Australian. England by contrast have got Moeen, who's taken 2/171 on a helpful surface, is very expensive, and appears to be struggling to actually bowl with his finger issue. Otherwise, it's Root. Big error of Stokes and McCullum to pick Moeen, when better options were available. And it may just cost England dearly.

We also have to consider the old ball. It's 30 overs old. England probably won't be getting a second one and, even if they do, Australia will be so close to victory it probably won't be worth it. We can actually draw a parallel between the first and second innings. In the first Australian innings, they were three down after 30 overs, just as they are now; and the three dismissed were Warner, Labuschagne and Smith, the same as now. And from overs 30-80 in the first innings, Australia racked up 186/2, as England struggled to make any inroads, with Robinson banging in 78mph bouncers a particular low point. So England will need to be significantly better from overs 30-80 in the second innings if they are to win.

65/35 in Australia's favour for me (ignoring the draw), but that'll come down if they're taking to the field tomorrow under dark, menacing clouds.

It's almost like you had that sentence ready to go before the game Duty!

Well, Moeen had a chance to prove me wrong, but sadly he's underlined my, and others, doubts about him.

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Post by Duty281 Tue 20 Jun 2023, 9:40 am

KP_fan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:

The main issue, however, is the spin. It's a turning track. It's the sort of wicket where, in the fourth innings, the fielding side should be looking to their spinner to take 4+ wickets and bowl their side to victory. Lyon picked up 8 of England's 20, sorry 18, wickets, more than any other Australian. England by contrast have got Moeen, who's taken 2/171 on a helpful surface, is very expensive, and appears to be struggling to actually bowl with his finger issue.  

All of Eng relying on Moeen with an injured finger to win them the Ashes first test

It's Moeen's responsibility to match the most successful off spinner in Aus glorious history with 500 wickets and that too with a bleeding hole in his finger to bowl Eng to a win and justify his inclusion.
The bar is quite reasonably set for Moeen  England's Summer of Cricket 2023, Featuring The Ashes 1f601

On a serious note....Moeen is a 3 to 4 wkts / test match bowler and he was doing OK in the first inning until he aggravated the blister
He might still chip in with a couple of wickets.

The real let down has been Anderson and even Robinson inspite of his wickets has not troubled the batters.
He needs a bit more in the pitch to be effective..

The bar is indeed set quite reasonably for Moeen. Take four+ wickets in this innings. It's a turning surface, very receptive to spin, and I'd expect any test spinner to do the same, whether that's Leach, or Dawson, or Ahmed. But Moeen simply isn't good enough, as his figures underline with an average of near 80, and two underwhelming contributions with the bat.

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Post by Duty281 Tue 20 Jun 2023, 9:43 am

No name Bertie wrote:Which side will be most disappointed if it ends in a draw from here (let's say not enough overs due to weather) and which side is most likely to make changes for test 2?  It seems to me Moeen needs to be replaced and maybe one of the seamers.

My changes would involve getting Foakes in and Moeen out, but the selectors are highly unlikely to do either. Wood will almost certainly come in, but I'm not sure for who. Broad was likely to be rotated out initially, but after this performance he shouldn't be, which could leave Anderson or Robinson on the chopping block.

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Post by Marky Tue 20 Jun 2023, 9:48 am

Duty281 wrote:
No name Bertie wrote:Which side will be most disappointed if it ends in a draw from here (let's say not enough overs due to weather) and which side is most likely to make changes for test 2?  It seems to me Moeen needs to be replaced and maybe one of the seamers.

My changes would involve getting Foakes in and Moeen out, but the selectors are highly unlikely to do either. Wood will almost certainly come in, but I'm not sure for who. Broad was likely to be rotated out initially, but after this performance he shouldn't be, which could leave Anderson or Robinson on the chopping block.

Wood for Anderson would make sense based on this test

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Post by Duty281 Tue 20 Jun 2023, 9:52 am

Absolutely lashed down in Edgbaston this morning, and is still lashing down now. But the rain might have passed by around 11, leaving the way clear for an early afternoon start. Hopefully no real problems with the outfield.

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Post by dummy_half Tue 20 Jun 2023, 9:53 am

Hopefully the wicket for the next match will offer a bit more life for the seamers - I think we've missed Wood's extra pace here, arguably more than we will on a faster and bouncier track (as Robinson and Broad would be more effective on a quicker surface, without necessarily being as fast from the hand as Wood) - then again, Aus will be ruing selecting Boland ahead of Starc, as he's been taken apart a bit by Bazball..

If England fail to win (unless it's mainly due to the weather), they'll definitely be looking back at the missed chances in the first innings (Green stumping in particular) and the nick from Khawaja early yesterday. The chances have been there.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 20 Jun 2023, 10:05 am

It's been hosing it down at Edgbaston as expected but folk at the ground seem to think they'll get play around lunch time. So one session down but potentially some dark cloud and lots of moisture which was the recipe for that mini session where Cummins and Boland looked unplayable.

Even with more favourable conditions England's seamers other than Broad will need to bowl far better though.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 20 Jun 2023, 10:17 am

Duty281 wrote:The bar is indeed set quite reasonably for Moeen. Take four+ wickets in this innings. It's a turning surface, very receptive to spin, and I'd expect any test spinner to do the same, whether that's Leach, or Dawson, or Ahmed. But Moeen simply isn't good enough, as his figures underline with an average of near 80, and two underwhelming contributions with the bat.
At home at this stage of his development I honestly I think Rehan would be even less consistent. Huge talent but this isn't the time IMO.

Dawson is an underrated cricketer but being realistic is a SLA that doesn't put many revs on the ball. Bowling to an Australia side with multiple lefties and one of the best players of spin about in Smith isn't a great matchup for a left-arm holding spinner.

As said pregame I think I'd have narrowly taken Dawson over Mo at this stage but I really don't think Dawson would've taking significant wickets even with the turn and bounce. He just isn't that type of bowler. Limited side spin and limited over spin don't get the ball spitting and bouncing regardless of the pitch.

I'd also add that my view of picking a holding spinner in Dawson was based on the seamers bowling more attacking lines, hence being threatening whilst going for runs. So I thought a holding spinner might complement things more. Given how they've bowled thus far that might not have worked out so well!

Prior to the finger injury Mo was going at a lower economy than Lyon did and took two vital, partnership breaking wickets in Head and Carey. Basically, that's the sort of performance I was expecting going in. He tends to get wickets with the odd cracker but go for runs.

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Post by dummy_half Tue 20 Jun 2023, 10:22 am

Dawson would be a better option on a wicket offering more to the seamers, where just holding an end at 2 an over is helpful, whereas Mo has always been a more attacking bowler - maybe he buys his wickets a bit at times, but also is capable of bowling real danger balls that simply aren't in Dawson's repertoire. So on a wicket that is offering a bit of turn he probably is the better choice overall. The batting on the other hand...

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Tue 20 Jun 2023, 10:22 am

We can discuss Moeen, Dawson, Ahmed, your offie down your local cricket club...it's not really going to make much difference who's picked - none of them are going to rip through the Aussies, none of them are going to control things, they're going to go for runs and pickup a few wickets in between.
We all know we don't have ample backup to Leach. It's rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic type discussion. We're not leaving out Shane Warne to pick Ian Salisbury here.
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Post by dummy_half Tue 20 Jun 2023, 10:37 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:We can discuss Moeen, Dawson, Ahmed, your offie down your local cricket club...it's not really going to make much difference who's picked - none of them are going to rip through the Aussies, none of them are going to control things, they're going to go for runs and pickup a few wickets in between.
We all know we don't have ample backup to Leach. It's rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic type discussion. We're not leaving out Shane Warne to pick Ian Salisbury here.

Undoubtedly true - if England are going to win the series it is going to be based on the runs scored and the seam bowling. The spinner debate is more a question of someone likely to chip in with a couple of wickets per innings but liable to go at 4 or 5 an over, against a guy who might get 1 but go at 2.5. There really isn't a perfect solution (and Leach wasn't it even before his injury, he was just the least worst option). The question of why we've not had a really good spin bowler since Swann (and before that you have to go a long way back = Underwood?) is one for the ECB to ponder.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue 20 Jun 2023, 10:44 am

Rather than Ali being at fault for all things currently wrong in the world, I tend to agree with you Olly.

Leach is hardly Shane Warne is he and blaming Ali takes away from some of the other failings (Seamers, keeping etc). He's just an easy scapegoat.

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Post by VTR Tue 20 Jun 2023, 10:46 am

Could the answer be to recall Dawson but retain Moeen, then tell Moeen he's the second spinner. That allegedly worked for one Test against South Africa once, though maybe best not to talk about the one after that

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Post by GSC Tue 20 Jun 2023, 10:48 am

Honestly don't think Mo bowled badly. Pretty much used as bait for Head in the first innings in the hope he would get himself out on a pretty dead pitch. He ain't Lyon sure, but as others have reflected, England don't have any options near that standard, including a fit Leach. (Also think England rather gave it away against Lyon as opposed to him ripping through the middle order)
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Post by Duty281 Tue 20 Jun 2023, 10:53 am

king_carlos wrote:
Duty281 wrote:The bar is indeed set quite reasonably for Moeen. Take four+ wickets in this innings. It's a turning surface, very receptive to spin, and I'd expect any test spinner to do the same, whether that's Leach, or Dawson, or Ahmed. But Moeen simply isn't good enough, as his figures underline with an average of near 80, and two underwhelming contributions with the bat.
At home at this stage of his development I honestly I think Rehan would be even less consistent. Huge talent but this isn't the time IMO.

Dawson is an underrated cricketer but being realistic is a SLA that doesn't put many revs on the ball. Bowling to an Australia side with multiple lefties and one of the best players of spin about in Smith isn't a great matchup for a left-arm holding spinner.

As said pregame I think I'd have narrowly taken Dawson over Mo at this stage but I really don't think Dawson would've taking significant wickets even with the turn and bounce. He just isn't that type of bowler. Limited side spin and limited over spin don't get the ball spitting and bouncing regardless of the pitch.

I'd also add that my view of picking a holding spinner in Dawson was based on the seamers bowling more attacking lines, hence being threatening whilst going for runs. So I thought a holding spinner might complement things more. Given how they've bowled thus far that might not have worked out so well!

Prior to the finger injury Mo was going at a lower economy than Lyon did and took two vital, partnership breaking wickets in Head and Carey. Basically, that's the sort of performance I was expecting going in. He tends to get wickets with the odd cracker but go for runs.

Dawson is just a better cricketer than Moeen in every facet at the moment. I'm not expecting Dawson to rip through a side like Warne, Murali or Chase, but he carries more threat than Moeen, while offering more in other areas.

I'm not surprised about the economy, because England bat more aggressively than Australia. I mean, in the first innings Lyon went for 5.13 and the England run rate was 5.03, and in Australia's first innings Moeen went at 4.45 with the team run rate being 3.32.

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Post by Soul Requiem Tue 20 Jun 2023, 10:55 am

To be fair Jack Leach did take 12 wickets at 25 during the last home ashes series, going at a shade over 3 runs an over, that is a significant improvement on what Mo is capable of.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Tue 20 Jun 2023, 10:56 am

dummy_half wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:We can discuss Moeen, Dawson, Ahmed, your offie down your local cricket club...it's not really going to make much difference who's picked - none of them are going to rip through the Aussies, none of them are going to control things, they're going to go for runs and pickup a few wickets in between.
We all know we don't have ample backup to Leach. It's rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic type discussion. We're not leaving out Shane Warne to pick Ian Salisbury here.

Undoubtedly true - if England are going to win the series it is going to be based on the runs scored and the seam bowling. The spinner debate is more a question of someone likely to chip in with a couple of wickets per innings but liable to go at 4 or 5 an over, against a guy who might get 1 but go at 2.5. There really isn't a perfect solution (and Leach wasn't it even before his injury, he was just the least worst option). The question of why we've not had a really good spin bowler since Swann (and before that you have to go a long way back = Underwood?) is one for the ECB to ponder.

Don't think we even have a guy that will go at 2.5 an over do we?
People seem to just be assuming that is what Dawson is, but he's never played a test match (for good reason, he's not very good) and the limited international cricket he has played in the white ball stuff he looks distinctly like a county pro who the top guys get after easily. Even in limited county stuff I've seen when Hampshire have played Surrey at the Oval, bats have got after him...I'd highly highly doubt he can come in and just "hold up an end" even if that is what they wanted.
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Tue 20 Jun 2023, 10:58 am

Onto the actual cricket...no play before lunch and an early lunch taken. So that means no play before 1:10pm
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Post by Duty281 Tue 20 Jun 2023, 10:59 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Rather than Ali being at fault for all things currently wrong in the world, I tend to agree with you Olly.

Leach is hardly Shane Warne is he and blaming Ali takes away from some of the other failings (Seamers, keeping etc). He's just an easy scapegoat.

The main thing is that criticism I've made of Anderson and Robinson, plus Bairstow's keeping in this test, is largely agreed with and not disputed. Valid criticism of Moeen brings out the defenders. 'Don't criticise a guy who takes 2/171 on a turning wicket and scores fewer runs with the bat than Robinson,' they say.

Moeen is a special case, in the eyes of many, impervious to logic and reason. Picked because it's believed he's the same player as 2016/2017, lauded as indispensable, and then given a myriad of excuses when things don't turn out well.

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Post by Duty281 Tue 20 Jun 2023, 11:05 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
dummy_half wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:We can discuss Moeen, Dawson, Ahmed, your offie down your local cricket club...it's not really going to make much difference who's picked - none of them are going to rip through the Aussies, none of them are going to control things, they're going to go for runs and pickup a few wickets in between.
We all know we don't have ample backup to Leach. It's rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic type discussion. We're not leaving out Shane Warne to pick Ian Salisbury here.

Undoubtedly true - if England are going to win the series it is going to be based on the runs scored and the seam bowling. The spinner debate is more a question of someone likely to chip in with a couple of wickets per innings but liable to go at 4 or 5 an over, against a guy who might get 1 but go at 2.5. There really isn't a perfect solution (and Leach wasn't it even before his injury, he was just the least worst option). The question of why we've not had a really good spin bowler since Swann (and before that you have to go a long way back = Underwood?) is one for the ECB to ponder.

Don't think we even have a guy that will go at 2.5 an over do we?
People seem to just be assuming that is what Dawson is, but he's never played a test match (for good reason, he's not very good) and the limited international cricket he has played in the white ball stuff he looks distinctly like a county pro who the top guys get after easily. Even in limited county stuff I've seen when Hampshire have played Surrey at the Oval, bats have got after him...I'd highly highly doubt he can come in and just "hold up an end" even if that is what they wanted.

I don't assume he is, I just think he's a greater wicket taking threat than Moeen, who would also offer more control. Since 2021 in the County Championship, Dawson has 52 wickets @ 29.53, economy 2.59.

Even if he doesn't work out, like Kerrigan didn't work out, I'd at least like to see England try something new, rather than go back to a continual failure in Moeen where we all know what's going to happen.

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Post by eirebilly_01 Tue 20 Jun 2023, 11:13 am

Duty281 wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Rather than Ali being at fault for all things currently wrong in the world, I tend to agree with you Olly.

Leach is hardly Shane Warne is he and blaming Ali takes away from some of the other failings (Seamers, keeping etc). He's just an easy scapegoat.

The main thing is that criticism I've made of Anderson and Robinson, plus Bairstow's keeping in this test, is largely agreed with and not disputed. Valid criticism of Moeen brings out the defenders. 'Don't criticise a guy who takes 2/171 on a turning wicket and scores fewer runs with the bat than Robinson,' they say.

Moeen is a special case, in the eyes of many, impervious to logic and reason. Picked because it's believed he's the same player as 2016/2017, lauded as indispensable, and then given a myriad of excuses when things don't turn out well.

Ah here now Duty, I did not think we would agree on anything regarding Moeen Ali but I full agree here.

his selection was primarily based on his attacking batting but that has again not really come to pass.

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Post by No name Bertie Tue 20 Jun 2023, 11:14 am

KP_fan wrote:
alfie wrote:..... Admire your optimism re Moeen's powers of recovery. Didn't look at all good to me....
... his finger  .... Not a wound or bleeding cut.....just peeled skin.  He should be in a workable shape with a skin colored tape on.  If I was him.....I would be practicing now the feel of ball thru a tape
Not sure if this has already been replied to but commentators on guerilla cricket broadcasting said that no tape is allowed for bowlers as that could interfere with the ball in an illegal manner.  I think it was mentioned that Smith when fielding had his fingers or something taped up but apparently that was allowed.
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Post by guildfordbat Tue 20 Jun 2023, 11:25 am

As usual, I'll wait for this Test to be finished before deciding who might miss out and come in for the next.

Just to add - IF (yes, big IF, I accept) England should win with Moeen taking 3, the BBC cricket thread - if not the whole internet - is going to break down with proposed remedies for a blistered finger!

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Tue 20 Jun 2023, 11:26 am

guildfordbat wrote:As usual, I'll wait for this Test to be finished before deciding who might miss out and come in for the next.

Just to add - IF (yes, big IF, I accept) England should win with Moeen taking 3, the BBC cricket thread - if not the whole internet - is going to break down with proposed remedies for a blistered finger!

I've literally just been reading that Graeme Swann used to p1ss on his hands to help with this?! What? I have literally never heard this being a thing before and it's blown my mind Shocked
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Post by eirebilly_01 Tue 20 Jun 2023, 11:36 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:As usual, I'll wait for this Test to be finished before deciding who might miss out and come in for the next.

Just to add - IF (yes, big IF, I accept) England should win with Moeen taking 3, the BBC cricket thread - if not the whole internet - is going to break down with proposed remedies for a blistered finger!

I've literally just been reading that Graeme Swann used to p1ss on his hands to help with this?! What? I have literally never heard this being a thing before and it's blown my mind Shocked

Ye have never heard of pishing blisters? That's a very old remedy...

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Post by GSC Tue 20 Jun 2023, 11:38 am

I appreciate we're using the rain delay to cover the spinner debate so we have time later for the main event of England's declaration Very Happy
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Post by dummy_half Tue 20 Jun 2023, 11:40 am

BTW, I just watched back the dismissals of Labuschegne and Smith -
Marnus just played down the wrong line of a ball that didn't really do much - perhaps was exoecting it to duck in a bit from the wide angle Broad delivered from whereas if it did anything it went very slightly out, but mainly a batting error.

Smith's one is more weird - the ball actually swings in quite significantly (not as much as the one Cummins got Pope with, which was pretty close to perfect), and yet he managed to get an outside edge on a loose drive. Really not a very Steve Smith type of dismissal.

Suggests there are nerves in the Aussie camp as well.
If we don't win the Test when we keep the world's top 2 Test batsmen to a combined 35 runs, it could be a long summer.

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Post by Duty281 Tue 20 Jun 2023, 11:40 am

GSC wrote:I appreciate we're using the rain delay to cover the spinner debate so we have time later for the main event of England's declaration Very Happy

England's declaration has meant that Khawaja will have batted on all five days of the test. A rare accolade.

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Post by Pal Joey Tue 20 Jun 2023, 11:42 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:As usual, I'll wait for this Test to be finished before deciding who might miss out and come in for the next.

Just to add - IF (yes, big IF, I accept) England should win with Moeen taking 3, the BBC cricket thread - if not the whole internet - is going to break down with proposed remedies for a blistered finger!

I've literally just been reading that Graeme Swann used to p1ss on his hands to help with this?! What? I have literally never heard this being a thing before and it's blown my mind Shocked

I knew this method was used in bygone days with workers in tanneries... to make the leather more malleable to work with and remove all the hair.

But they aimed for the dead animal's skin; not their own hands.

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