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England's Summer of Cricket 2023, Featuring The Ashes

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Post by Duty281 Mon Jun 19, 2023 7:10 pm

First topic message reminder :

Well done to Scott Boland, a very tidy job and added precious runs.

Another fantastic day in a fantastic test in a fantastic rivalry in a fantastic sport. Fantastic.

And just as the pattern has been throughout, when one team looked to be taking control, it just got yanked back. And it was Broad yanking it back with a brilliant spell. Labuschagne is the new Warner, as far as Broad's concerned.

174 to get. Seven wickets left. Still favouring Australia, but it'll be interesting to see how the bowling conditions are after the expected rain tomorrow. If they're anything close to what England's top order had to face yesterday, it could be curtains for Australia, but I'm not anticipating it to be that bad.

Will almost certainly be a delayed start. Hopefully the BBC's more pessimistic forecast doesn't come to fruition.

It'll probably go to the wire, that's the way the whole test has been shaping up. Might even be a tied test...

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Post by No name Bertie Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:42 am

The rain has stopped for now. Actually very light drizzle.
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Post by Duty281 Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:47 am

The draw is starting to come into view. The outfield will have taken a lot of water.

While we wait, I recently discovered this channel on YouTube. It has recorded highlight programmes of some England games from the 60s/70s/80s/90s, including the 1997 Ashes. The uploader is currently in the process, it seems, of uploading highlights from the 1998 series v South Africa. So, if you ever need to pass the time, the link is below.

https://www.youtube.com/@dmmordecai7984/playlists

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Post by alfie Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:54 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
dummy_half wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:We can discuss Moeen, Dawson, Ahmed, your offie down your local cricket club...it's not really going to make much difference who's picked - none of them are going to rip through the Aussies, none of them are going to control things, they're going to go for runs and pickup a few wickets in between.
We all know we don't have ample backup to Leach. It's rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic type discussion. We're not leaving out Shane Warne to pick Ian Salisbury here.

Undoubtedly true - if England are going to win the series it is going to be based on the runs scored and the seam bowling. The spinner debate is more a question of someone likely to chip in with a couple of wickets per innings but liable to go at 4 or 5 an over, against a guy who might get 1 but go at 2.5. There really isn't a perfect solution (and Leach wasn't it even before his injury, he was just the least worst option). The question of why we've not had a really good spin bowler since Swann (and before that you have to go a long way back = Underwood?) is one for the ECB to ponder.

Don't think we even have a guy that will go at 2.5 an over do we?
People seem to just be assuming that is what Dawson is, but he's never played a test match (for good reason, he's not very good) and the limited international cricket he has played in the white ball stuff he looks distinctly like a county pro who the top guys get after easily. Even in limited county stuff I've seen when Hampshire have played Surrey at the Oval, bats have got after him...I'd highly highly doubt he can come in and just "hold up an end" even if that is what they wanted.

Should perhaps point out that Dawson has actually played three Tests. One fifty against India . But just 7 wickets at 42 isn't exactly encouraging.

He'd be a possible - but , I think , fair to say a bit of a "pick and hope" selection.

Later , as guildford says. Let's get this one done. Weather permitting !

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:57 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:As usual, I'll wait for this Test to be finished before deciding who might miss out and come in for the next.

Just to add - IF (yes, big IF, I accept) England should win with Moeen taking 3, the BBC cricket thread - if not the whole internet - is going to break down with proposed remedies for a blistered finger!

I've literally just been reading that Graeme Swann used to p1ss on his hands to help with this?! What? I have literally never heard this being a thing before and it's blown my mind Shocked

I regularly get the missus to do this and I haven't had a blister for years.....

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Post by GSC Tue Jun 20, 2023 12:01 pm

Duty281 wrote:The draw is starting to come into view. The outfield will have taken a lot of water.

While we wait, I recently discovered this channel on YouTube. It has recorded highlight programmes of some England games from the 60s/70s/80s/90s, including the 1997 Ashes. The uploader is currently in the process, it seems, of uploading highlights from the 1998 series v South Africa. So, if you ever need to pass the time, the link is below.

https://www.youtube.com/@dmmordecai7984/playlists

Good thing stokes declared early to have more time at Australia *runs*
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Post by alfie Tue Jun 20, 2023 12:03 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:As usual, I'll wait for this Test to be finished before deciding who might miss out and come in for the next.

Just to add - IF (yes, big IF, I accept) England should win with Moeen taking 3, the BBC cricket thread - if not the whole internet - is going to break down with proposed remedies for a blistered finger!

I've literally just been reading that Graeme Swann used to p1ss on his hands to help with this?! What? I have literally never heard this being a thing before and it's blown my mind Shocked

I regularly get the missus to do this and I haven't had a blister for years.....

Very Happy

This is starting to look like an offshoot of that Morning Tea monkey house...

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Post by guildfordbat Tue Jun 20, 2023 12:05 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:As usual, I'll wait for this Test to be finished before deciding who might miss out and come in for the next.

Just to add - IF (yes, big IF, I accept) England should win with Moeen taking 3, the BBC cricket thread - if not the whole internet - is going to break down with proposed remedies for a blistered finger!

I've literally just been reading that Graeme Swann used to p1ss on his hands to help with this?! What? I have literally never heard this being a thing before and it's blown my mind Shocked

I regularly get the missus to do this and I haven't had a blister for years.....

Yes, she posted that on the BBC cricket thread a few minutes ago ...

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Post by KP_fan Tue Jun 20, 2023 12:06 pm

70 overs possible if full play
If further reduced to about 50 overs or so....then only one team can loose scenario arises
Play plays out 35 overs for 100 odd conserving wickets

and makes a dash in last 15....with the option to shut shop if too many wickets fell
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Post by Duty281 Tue Jun 20, 2023 12:07 pm

Good thing the players will take lunch soon. They must be exhausted.

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Post by alfie Tue Jun 20, 2023 12:13 pm

Listen this is worse for those of us in the upside down part of the world : with the prospect of play going on around 4-5 am , but not knowing whether 'tis safe to take a couple of hours kip ahead of the vigil. I managed to miss the end of that blooming Hanse Cronje Test by making assumptions about the weather...

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Post by king_carlos Tue Jun 20, 2023 12:16 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:As usual, I'll wait for this Test to be finished before deciding who might miss out and come in for the next.

Just to add - IF (yes, big IF, I accept) England should win with Moeen taking 3, the BBC cricket thread - if not the whole internet - is going to break down with proposed remedies for a blistered finger!

I've literally just been reading that Graeme Swann used to p1ss on his hands to help with this?! What? I have literally never heard this being a thing before and it's blown my mind Shocked
Yep, rock climbers used to do that too. Baseball pitchers too. Many assert it prevented blisters. Whether it does that by actually toughening or perversely by softening (by that I guess they mean it has more give...?) the skin is a matter of debate. I've seen athletes from all three sports claim it does one or the other.

Another fun skin care (ish) fact about cricket. Starting in the late 80s and 90s to present many cricketers have put the same product used to harden horses hooves on their nails. Depending on who you ask this is either to prevent injury or to assist with ball tampering. Plenty of stories of players using this stuff to basically turn their nails into metal then cutting them in, erm, creative ways to assist with digging into the ball.

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Post by GSC Tue Jun 20, 2023 12:19 pm

Think this will probably take quite a while yet. Be worried we're gonna miss the best of the conditions while it dries out
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Post by VTR Tue Jun 20, 2023 12:19 pm

alfie wrote:Listen this is worse for those of us in the upside down part of the world : with the prospect of play going on around 4-5 am , but not knowing whether 'tis safe to take a couple of hours kip ahead of the vigil. I managed to miss the end of that blooming Hanse Cronje Test by making assumptions about the weather...
Well with hindsight that's hardly a bad thing. Exciting at the time, but completely tainted nowadays. Further upside is you missed Darren Maddy batting

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Post by Duty281 Tue Jun 20, 2023 12:23 pm

GSC wrote:Think this will probably take quite a while yet. Be worried we're gonna miss the best of the conditions while it dries out

That was my concern as well, because it's likely to be light cloud with some sunshine in the late afternoon/early evening.

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Post by king_carlos Tue Jun 20, 2023 12:30 pm

Zaltz on TMS wrote:I have looked at Tests which could be classed as a close finish. So those which have been won by three wickets or fewer chasing, or by 50 runs when defending. Since 1980 Australia have won 14 out of 36 matches. If you look specifically at Ashes matches, since 1926, there have been 10 games which have been close finishes - 25 runs or fewer in this instance - and England have won all 10 of them.

Zaltz really is terrific on TMS. That great balance of being entertaining yet informative. Finding stats that are great fun but also ones that are illuminating.

Replacing the much loved and missed Bill Frindall was always going to be impossible. In Zaltzman they have a fantastic addition though. I loved Andrew Samson too, he's undoubtedly one of the most influential cricket statisticians ever. But the background in comedy Zaltzman has combined with his incredible love and knowledge of cricket are a cracking combination.

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Post by Duty281 Tue Jun 20, 2023 12:37 pm

It's interesting that England tend to win the closer games v Australia, when you consider that Australia are generally mentally tougher than England.

Covers coming off.

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Post by Soul Requiem Tue Jun 20, 2023 12:42 pm

Three of those recent close games have been because Australia got themselves back into games that looked done and dusted, all of these games should have been won far easier by England;

Edgbaston 2005
Trent Bridge 2005
Trent Bridge 2013

Headingley 2019 is such a freak result we can basically ignore it.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Tue Jun 20, 2023 12:43 pm

My takeaway from those stats

England = have that dawg in them
Aussies = chokers
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Post by VTR Tue Jun 20, 2023 12:47 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:Three of those recent close games have been because Australia got themselves back into games that looked done and dusted, all of these games should have been won far easier by England;

Edgbaston 2005
Trent Bridge 2005
Trent Bridge 2013

Headingley 2019 is such a freak result we can basically ignore it.
Agree that none of those three should even have been close, unless you truly rate the batting talents of the likes of Kasprowizc and Siddle. All this talk of creating entertainment, they've been doing it for years

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Tue Jun 20, 2023 12:50 pm

Just be glad it's not in Manchester....Been called off already.

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Post by Duty281 Tue Jun 20, 2023 12:54 pm

Inspection at 13:20.

So perhaps looking at a 15:00/15:30 start? Think they're only allowed to schedule overs up until a 19:00 close, although (because it's the last day) play can go on as long as possible after 19:00 to get those overs in. So, with a 20 minute tea break, might be looking at a maximum of 55 overs?

Which would be enough time.

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Post by Pal Joey Tue Jun 20, 2023 1:00 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:Three of those recent close games have been because Australia got themselves back into games that looked done and dusted, all of these games should have been won far easier by England;

Edgbaston 2005
Trent Bridge 2005
Trent Bridge 2013

Headingley 2019 is such a freak result we can basically ignore it.

Interesting to know Australia performs far better in England, than vice-versa. From our point of view you've had quite a few very lucky escapes.

In England: England 53-51
In Australia: Australia 99-57... damn that last draw in Sydney! Wink

150-110 in favour of the little antipodean continent.

Overall: Australia leads the Ashes Series 34-32, which suggests we're not getting proper value for all of those 150 wins and England tends to win a few more of the closer series at home.

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Post by Duty281 Tue Jun 20, 2023 1:33 pm

I say, bit earlier than I anticipated. Play to start at 14:15. Sounds like blue sky conditions as well, which the Aussies will love.

Afternoon session: 14:15-16:30
Tea: 16:30-16:50
Evening session: 16:50-19:00

67 overs to be bowled, so a result is a near certainty.

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Post by GSC Tue Jun 20, 2023 1:42 pm

Should still be muggy I think, ball might nip around a bit still. Early wickets a necessity I think
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Post by No name Bertie Tue Jun 20, 2023 1:43 pm

I suppose England will have to rely on Broad and Robinson for the wickets. Stoke not fit enough and Moeen with a skinless finger.
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Post by Soul Requiem Tue Jun 20, 2023 1:44 pm

GSC wrote:Should still be muggy I think, ball might nip around a bit still. Early wickets a necessity I think

Reverse comes into play if it is muggy.

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Post by alfie Tue Jun 20, 2023 1:48 pm

67 overs indeed would be plenty. That's if the light and weather allow : forecast doesn't seem quite definite.

England would probably be disappointed if the clouds just roll away. Had doubtless been hoping for more of Sunday afternoon's gloom.

Coffee time I guess...

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Post by Duty281 Tue Jun 20, 2023 1:55 pm

I know Guildford doesn't like night watchmen, but Boland can be a huge menace to England in this chase. He should just go out with a license to play shots, and if he can add a few boundaries it'll be a massive frustration for England in a small chase.

Khawaja and Head are the key. Khawaja's the glue that held it together in the first innings and got Australia close; he can perform a similar role here and let the stroke-players score from the other end. Whereas Head can make the target vanish in no time at all. Green and Carey are the understudies, respectively, to Khawaja and Head in those roles, and mustn't be underestimated.

Broad was on fire last night and England need him to transfer that into his opening spell, but they also need some back up from elsewhere. Wonder if Stokes feels he has a decisive role to play in another thrilling Ashes test?

Some cloud cover now coming over Edgbaston, apparently.

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Post by alfie Tue Jun 20, 2023 1:57 pm

Pal Joey wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:Three of those recent close games have been because Australia got themselves back into games that looked done and dusted, all of these games should have been won far easier by England;

Edgbaston 2005
Trent Bridge 2005
Trent Bridge 2013

Headingley 2019 is such a freak result we can basically ignore it.

Interesting to know Australia performs far better in England, than vice-versa. From our point of view you've had quite a few very lucky escapes.

In England: England 53-51
In Australia: Australia 99-57... damn that last draw in Sydney! Wink

150-110 in favour of the little antipodean continent.

Overall: Australia leads the Ashes Series 34-32, which suggests we're not getting proper value for all of those 150 wins and England tends to win a few more of the closer series at home.

Couple of reasons for that , I think. Very few draws in Australia ; and once any touring team gets behind in Australia they tend (with a very few honourable exceptions) to get completely crushed. Fair to say Australia (quite apart from often being just very good) are extremely ruthless front runners.

One of the reasons I guess many England fans panic at the prospect of losing the first Test of a series.

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Post by GSC Tue Jun 20, 2023 2:06 pm

Fair amount of cloud cover still around. Might be the game in this opening hour
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Post by Pal Joey Tue Jun 20, 2023 2:09 pm

alfie wrote:67 overs indeed would be plenty.  That's if the light and weather allow : forecast doesn't seem quite definite.

England would probably be disappointed if the clouds just roll away. Had doubtless been hoping for more of Sunday afternoon's gloom.

Coffee time I guess...

Yeah, coffee time.

The huge clouds have gone north but still looks as though it will be overcast or cloud cover... until about 9pm.

Tubby was going on about the wet outfield and the affect that might have on the ball but if there's still high humidity and some cloud overhead, it won't be easy for Australia. 67 overs seems enough time-wise and the run rate required is about 2.6. For only 60 overs, it's about 2.9 or 3.

However, a few wickets and the resultant slower run scoring in survival mode could see that RRR blow out to 3-4 rpo or more. Think they have to attack, take a couple of leaves from the England pattern book (not quite BB) and not go into their shell if they lose a couple early on. Surely they'll realise that they've got to keep the scoreboard moving at around 3s for this session and get the numbers of runs required for the final session under 80-90... or even less. Have a feeling there's going to be some drama and we'll all be on a knife edge... Wink

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Post by GSC Tue Jun 20, 2023 2:14 pm

TMS don't think Mo fancies it much based on his warm ups
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Post by Duty281 Tue Jun 20, 2023 2:15 pm

England can't ask for much more from the overhead conditions.

Jimmy to partner Broad for the opening burst, it seems...

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Post by alfie Tue Jun 20, 2023 2:25 pm

Bit surprised WINVIZ has England fairly clear favourites ? I reckon it's pretty much 50/50 at the moment ; though a couple of early wickets would change that.

Boland the nighthawk has a very useful 16 already. He seems to want to confound the likes of Guildford Wink

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Post by Duty281 Tue Jun 20, 2023 2:25 pm

Not an awful lot for England in those first couple of overs; of course, the damp outfield isn't helping. Looks a little more than damp, to be honest.

Interesting discrepancy for Khawaja on around v over the wicket, but England seemingly content to go around the wicket to him.

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Post by GSC Tue Jun 20, 2023 2:42 pm

Might need Stokes to get revved up here
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Tue Jun 20, 2023 2:42 pm

No breakthrough yet - but England have kept it tight so far. Boland looking fairly comfy
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Post by alfie Tue Jun 20, 2023 2:42 pm

No real dramas first few overs. Khawaja patient as ever ; Boland continuing to do a solid job...looked a total rabbit first innings but has been playing rather soundly so far and making useful runs with deflections.

Will have soothed a few Australian nerves already I think.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Tue Jun 20, 2023 2:46 pm

I'd get Robinson on for Anderson - Jimmy again, just not quite on it
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Post by Duty281 Tue Jun 20, 2023 2:47 pm

Australia won't mind about the scoreboard too much. This is the hardest time for batting and absorption will do the job. Soon, Broad and Anderson will be out of the attack and Australia will have a change bowler from one end, either Stokes/Moeen/Root, to attack. Safe to say England haven't generated the swing they were hoping for, but the old ball + damp outfield = a dead phase.

Khawaja very positive in defence and Boland looking quite classy.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Tue Jun 20, 2023 2:50 pm

The old double bluff does for Boland - 20 handy runs added, but a good wicket for Broad and England.

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Post by Duty281 Tue Jun 20, 2023 2:51 pm

Broad strikes! Boland not looking classy anymore, but how vital could that 20 be in the final equation?

Gives England a lift and brings a new batsman in. Those are the perils of a night watchman..erm..so I'm told!

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Post by GSC Tue Jun 20, 2023 2:51 pm

Broad! Nighthawk gets nighthawk and now the big duo are in
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Post by alfie Tue Jun 20, 2023 2:52 pm

Broad strikes...Boland did a good job. Bit surprised they waited so long to get the close catchers in...seemed to mess him up immediately.

Big moment now. Head the most "dangerous" bat here , you'd think. Get him early - advantage England. But if he gets going...

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Post by GSC Tue Jun 20, 2023 2:55 pm

Khawaja happy for Boland to take the strike but sending Head back?
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Post by king_carlos Tue Jun 20, 2023 2:58 pm

That much needed first break!

Bairstow after a relatively poor time with the gloves in this match now has 4, albeit regulation, catches from 4 wickets to fall.

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Post by alfie Tue Jun 20, 2023 2:59 pm

Robinson into the attack. Good move . Jimmy tight enough but not too threatening. His role today may be more to bowl several tight spells to build pressure. But Robinson might just relish this opportunity at the new batsman.

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Post by Duty281 Tue Jun 20, 2023 3:00 pm

Pretty gentle start from Robinson, but holding a good line, as the sun starts to come out. Head not yet off the mark.

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Post by GSC Tue Jun 20, 2023 3:00 pm

An hour of Travis Head will sort out the run rate but Australia do need to be a bit careful of being squeezed if more rain comes back
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Post by Duty281 Tue Jun 20, 2023 3:09 pm

Aussies clearly batting for a draw. Very Happy

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