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England 2023 - Post 6N and beyond - Prep for WC

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TAFKA The Oracle
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Post by Sgt_Pooly Fri 30 Jun 2023, 12:38 pm

First topic message reminder :

Continued.....

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Post by doctor_grey Sun 06 Aug 2023, 11:36 am

Odd that the best attacking threat was Marchant, whom many thought of as almost an afterthought.

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Post by TJ Sun 06 Aug 2023, 11:38 am

thinking about the tactics a bit and listening to you guys it seems to me there was a plan and the team did stick to it. The problem is the plan is very low risk with low rewards.

also a lack of plan B if plan A is not working

I sort of get if your team is playing poorly as England have been for a couple of years then simplify and return to basics is a reasonable option. However the team did not actually execute the plan well. Forwards making little ground, Wales slowing ball well.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 06 Aug 2023, 11:41 am

There's more than 1 way to skin a cat mm. Not sure there'll be many people who weren't entertained by the match yesterday, a few will be just upset that a team so dominant in the first half didn't put more points on the board. Sarge is probably right on reflection that the tactics were spot on but just not quite the players. Imagine when we get to the team proper aligned with this new approach. You've got to be a little excited where the next 5 years can take us. Maybe a bit too early to say back to back WC s due to the players we have now but I'm sure we'll be within the top 3 favourites in 4 years. Hoping we can pretty much start to dominate the 6ns though. Always difficult at the moment re slams as we have Ireland and France away alternatively but we're back in the race for certain.

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Post by TJ Sun 06 Aug 2023, 11:48 am

Can I have some of what you have been smoking 7.5? Whistle Hug

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Post by mountain man Sun 06 Aug 2023, 11:49 am

Looking at France and even Scotland yesterday they are miles ahead of England. France B team looked fantastic, playing with width, energy and ambition. Imagine what they will be like when DuPont and co get in.

England are one dimensional and a poor one at that.

Sorry but I can see zero positives from yesterday and if plan is to run into contact then hope to get a shot at 3 points is limit of ambition then we are in for a depressing RWC.

I said before that I was not looking at 2023 RWC but next cycle towards 2027. From a rugby point of view it can't come quick enough.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Sun 06 Aug 2023, 11:50 am

My thoughts for what they are worth. As has been said by a lot of people on here, Joe C, Malins, Porter, Dombrandt, Hill, Stuart on their way home. I would also let Care go, he was slower than Youngs has been yesterday.

It looks like we will need cover for Steward, so bring in Tommy Freeman, he cannot be worse than any of the others and covers wing and fullback to a high standard, plus he is the nearest thing we have to Joe C in terms of size on the wing.

I am not sure who is fit, but Mitchell can and does put pace into the game; I think he and JvP are the two standouts in English rugby, Care ahead of him to me make no sense.

As far as yesterday went, I don't want to comment, I can see the point being made about the structure and way that SB wants us to play, but it was abject. The ball is slippery all through the winter, we don't make that many errors then, so why yesterday?

The only players that can hold there heads up are Genge, Ludlam, Marchant and Steward. Pearson and Smith were okay.

Dombrandt needs to be dropped for good, still meandering about with no urgency, there was one ruck, where he got up, stood facing his own posts, went off at a slow walk of 10m to his position, not even looking at the play. By the time he got there the ball was out and heading in the opposite direction, he is simply a waste of space. Ludlam is a 6/8 but is far superior in just about every facet of the no. 8 game.

I am not sure I want to watch next week, but I suspect the masochist in me will persuade me to.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sun 06 Aug 2023, 11:56 am

Interesting that Carl Fearns had a little pop at Dombrandt before the game yesterday.

Something along the lines of Tom Willis is the closest thing to Billy V and should be selected over players that like to dip in and out of games and choose when to get involved. Perhaps questioning Dombrandt's work rate?

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Post by mountain man Sun 06 Aug 2023, 11:58 am

Perhaps I got it wrong but I thought Stuart was OK in 1st half? Not great but not awful.

Happy to be corrected.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 06 Aug 2023, 12:05 pm

You guys are miles to pessimistic. What honestly wasn't to like. Yes the result just fell the wrong way but clearly we're on the right path.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sun 06 Aug 2023, 12:10 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:You guys are miles to pessimistic. What honestly wasn't to like.  Yes the result just fell the wrong way but clearly we're on the right path.

Are you having fun 7.5?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 06 Aug 2023, 12:15 pm

Watching a pretty weird Netflix film that I'm not particularly enjoying but I'm too far into it now to stop.

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Post by mountain man Sun 06 Aug 2023, 12:21 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:You guys are miles to pessimistic. What honestly wasn't to like.  Yes the result just fell the wrong way but clearly we're on the right path.

Are you having fun 7.5?

Like I said earlier about 7.5 ;

OK, I'm convinced. You are taking the p*ss.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 06 Aug 2023, 12:27 pm

I'm mean the twist at the end is this gangster is actually possessed. Very weird. Don't trust the top 10 list guys.

You've just got to see where we can go with this mm. I know we're bought in that he's the right man in the medium term but starting to think this WC hasn't come too soon.


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Post by carpet baboon Sun 06 Aug 2023, 12:36 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm mean the twist at the end is this gangster is actually possessed. Very weird. Don't trust the top 10 list guys.

You've just got to see where we can go with this mm. I know we're bought in that he's the right man in the medium term but starting to think this WC hasn't come too soon.


Bull. I quite liked it

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 06 Aug 2023, 12:38 pm

carpet baboon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm mean the twist at the end is this gangster is actually possessed. Very weird. Don't trust the top 10 list guys.

You've just got to see where we can go with this mm. I know we're bought in that he's the right man in the medium term but starting to think this WC hasn't come too soon.


Bull. I quite liked it

Spoilers.

Yes! Really? I'm thinking back and wondering why the guy whose hand he chopped off was having a cosy talk about football and not noticing his pitch black eyes. Did they get to the end and think so how do we say he got out the caravan? Meh, deal with the devil.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 06 Aug 2023, 2:35 pm

Can't see the full article in the torygraph but slade may and cokanasiga not going to be included in the squad. Arundell and marchant are. Malins was great at chasing the high kicks yesterday so deserve to be in.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 06 Aug 2023, 2:36 pm

Oh. Ben Earl too and Vunipola going to be the only 8.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 06 Aug 2023, 2:41 pm

Since 2020 slade has the most starts for us at both 12 and 13.

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Post by doctor_grey Sun 06 Aug 2023, 3:32 pm

The Telegraph's selections for the RWC squad based on whatever they know (if anything). For whatever it's worth (if anything):

Forwards
Ellis Genge, Joe Marler, Bevan Rodd, Jamie George, Jack Walker, Theo Dan, Kyle Sinckler, Dan Cole, Will Stuart, Maro Itoje, Ollie Chessum, George Martin, David Ribbans, Courtney Lawes, Lewis Ludlam, Tom Curry, Jack Willis, Ben Earl, Billy Vunipola.

Backs
Ben Youngs, Danny Care, Jack van Poortvliet, Owen Farrell, George Ford, Marcus Smith, Manu Tuilagi, Ollie Lawrence, Joe Marchant, Anthony Watson, Elliot Daly, Max Malins, Henry Arundell, Freddie Steward

Great gobs of meh

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 06 Aug 2023, 3:41 pm

Gotta trust the process. I take back my comments on Dan as Borthwick has said set piece is a prime requirement for England it must have been the dodgy pitch for scrums and Hill who was causing the libeout issues. Full confidence that Earl will be able to replicate the hard carrying from 8. Onwards and upwards.

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Post by hugehandoff Sun 06 Aug 2023, 3:46 pm

Luckily yesterday I had to drive my family all day whilst on holiday in Florida. To conclude a long and boring day we treated ourselves to the cinema whereupon my wife fell over resulting in 15 stitches to a leg wound and 4 hours in hospital.......but this was apparently much in preference to watching England!

Very depressing to read all your comments and I truly wonder about my sanity when I attend the Argentina game in Marseille. We desperately need a decent bounce back this weekend to restore morale. I am not counting on it.

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Post by doctor_grey Sun 06 Aug 2023, 3:53 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Gotta trust the process. I take back my comments on Dan as Borthwick has said set piece is a prime requirement for England it must have been the dodgy pitch for scrums and Hill who was causing the libeout issues. Full confidence that Earl will be able to replicate the hard carrying from 8. Onwards and upwards.
I think whatever was in your breakfast this morning is likely illegal in most civilised countries. But you are cracking me up....

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 06 Aug 2023, 3:53 pm

Oh no. Hope she's OK

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Post by mountain man Sun 06 Aug 2023, 4:43 pm

Given what happened yesterday and knowing likes of Mitchell not in wider squad that Telegraph squad not unsurprising
I'd say Sinckler Care Rodd and Malins lucky to be there.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 06 Aug 2023, 5:09 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Gotta trust the process. I take back my comments on Dan as Borthwick has said set piece is a prime requirement for England it must have been the dodgy pitch for scrums and Hill who was causing the libeout issues. Full confidence that Earl will be able to replicate the hard carrying from 8. Onwards and upwards.
I think whatever was in your breakfast this morning is likely illegal in most civilised countries.  But you are cracking me up....
 

Lol. Could be from yesterday. Was supposed to be out to meet a friend but as I've turned 40 this year I've stood up during the week hurt my back and self medicated.

But I'm all aboard BorthwickBall.

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Post by doctor_grey Sun 06 Aug 2023, 5:29 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Gotta trust the process. I take back my comments on Dan as Borthwick has said set piece is a prime requirement for England it must have been the dodgy pitch for scrums and Hill who was causing the libeout issues. Full confidence that Earl will be able to replicate the hard carrying from 8. Onwards and upwards.
I think whatever was in your breakfast this morning is likely illegal in most civilised countries.  But you are cracking me up....
 

Lol. Could be from yesterday. Was supposed to be out to meet a friend but as I've turned 40 this year I've stood up during the week hurt my back and self medicated.

But I'm all aboard BorthwickBall.
I think you hit your head when you stood up. And, like magic, a true believer. Never thought I would see the day.

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Post by Yoda Sun 06 Aug 2023, 5:39 pm

Perhaps 7&1/2 has been brainwashed by borthwick and is in some sort of trance. Come back into the light!

Troubling times I feel, reminds me of the time SB was captaining England and we only just managed to beat Italy. Well at least that has killed of any hope of a decent revival on fortune. It's time to get realistic and dig deep, sport doldrums can only be combatted by a stoic attitude augmented by copious amounts of alcohol. Still looking forward to the world cup and will be supporting the underdogs and those who play positive rugby.


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Post by mountain man Sun 06 Aug 2023, 5:47 pm

Yep I'll be supporting the underdog England. Win lose or draw I support team.
I'll moan about dreadful performances of course but still support them.

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Post by king_carlos Sun 06 Aug 2023, 5:58 pm

If the Torygraph are correct then:

1.Genge, Marler, Rodd
2.George, Walker, Dan
3.Sinckler, Stuart, Cole
4.Itoje, Martin
5.Chessum, Ribbans
6.Lawes, Ludlam
7.Curry, Willis
8.Vunipola, Earl

9.JvP, Youngs, Care
10.Ford, Smith

11.Daly, Arundell
12.Farrell, Tuilagi
13.Lawrence, Marchant
14.Watson, Malins
15.Steward

They've clearly had sources in the England camp for a long time now as they frequently get things correct.

Marchant ahead of Slade would be the unexpected call there. I thought they may sway towards leaving out Martin or a back row to get a 18-15 forwards-backs split as opposed to the 19-14 split in that squad. Turns out that leaving Slade out could be preferred to get the extra forward.

Dan ahead of Blamire would be a shock after the Wales game for sure. Blamire didn't exactly demand selection either though.

I'd guess that squad means Farrell is being considered as an option at 12. Since seeing the attacking structure in the Six Nations that has felt likely.

I'd take Pearson ahead of Earl for the formers power. I do rate the Earl highly as well. I just don't feel he's brought it to the international game yet. He's absolutely rapid and his support play for Sarries can be incredible at times.

Many won't approve of picking only one specialist number 8 but with the tournament coming too early for Tom Willis and Dombrandt so poor at international level I'd take Ludlam as 8 cover to get the extra flanker. It's just that flanker would be Pearson for me.

Torygraph wrote:No 8 Alex Dombrandt and wing Joe Cokanasiga appear to have missed out while Tom Willis will be on the standby list.

That would suggest they have heard that Willis is ahead of Dombrandt as injury cover as well.

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Post by mountain man Sun 06 Aug 2023, 6:38 pm

Marchant was good yesterday, one of only 3 who were so reasonable he's in. Slade never really convinced for Eng, looks good but when chips down rarely delivers.

Rest of squad assuming its correct is about right with usual caveat about those who should be in wider squad but weren't.

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Post by Geordie Sun 06 Aug 2023, 7:48 pm

Earl and Daly...how many mins have they played for England over the last few years?

And Malins? Surely it's Daly OR Malins...

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Post by king_carlos Sun 06 Aug 2023, 8:15 pm

I don't mind Malins as reserve fullback. I think he might be the best option there after Steward. Joe Carpenter is really talented but a bit raw. I wouldn't use Malins as a wing though.

If Daly can get close to his early season form before injury then he was very close to his best again. That player could add a lot to England. He was fantastic for Sarries across 13, wing and fullback before injury. I'd like to see him on the wing in the warmups.

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Post by Geordie Sun 06 Aug 2023, 8:31 pm

I would happily see Daly on the wing aswell KC.

The thing about Daly is he can be the outside playmaker..but he has the pace of a winger.

Malins is like a floundering Salmon...just can't warm to him at this level...club level very different of course.

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Post by Yoda Sun 06 Aug 2023, 8:31 pm

Just rewatched the match, 16 ridiculous handling errors and four absolute shockers when in the 22 turned promising attacks into embarrassing turnovers. The three tries (I'm including lrz) we conceded all came from kicks through or over albeit some great hands by Williams and their no8. We can't defend this apparently and are very vulnerable to this tactic. This was also the case against France in the six nations. Is Freddie stewards lack of acceleration hindering the defence of shorter kicks? Does he get pulled out of alignment to easily and not fast enough to recover when ball is kicked over the line?

Other defensive patterns were ok. Some players played better than I initially thought. George Martin, is bigger and more physical than I thought. Pearson was a menace at the breakdown and was busier than I first thought. Tom Willis actually looked like a ball carrier when coming on and put in some good hits. Joe marchant looked like the only back who was international quality in a white shirt.

Definite disappointments were dominant (looked slow and ponderous), Care, Smith (just doesn't control the play enough), porter (has he actually played 12?) Big Joe, Jamie blamire (non existent in the carry). Malins is not a wing!!!! But maybe a 15 and a good one?


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Post by Mr Bounce Sun 06 Aug 2023, 10:20 pm

Malins is a really talented rugby player. But he's more of a full back than a wing. He's just being played there because Steward and Goode won't be dropped in his favour. He should be at 15 for Bears next season so it will be interesting to see how he goes in his more favoured position.

I know he's played 10 at U20s level. Will his skillset, could he be a playmaker 12?

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Post by nlpnlp Sun 06 Aug 2023, 11:21 pm

Malins hasn't got the size/strength to play 12. But agree that he is a really talented player - more pace than Steward, better kicker and whilst not as flashy when catching high balls, must have a similar success percentage (Steward catches 7 or 8 dominanly and drops 2 or 3 easy ones). Plus I think Yoda is bang on with Steward getting pulled out of alignment too easily and not having the pace of a Dulin to cover kicks. I would rather have Steward at 12 and Malins at 15.

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Post by mikey_dragon Mon 07 Aug 2023, 12:24 am

RiscaGame wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Presumably we see a fair few changes next week. Think it will probably be

Marler George sinckler
Itoje Hill
Lawes Willis
Vunipola (if fit dombrandt if not)
Youngs Ford may farrell tuilagi Watson Steward.

He may start farrell at 10 and go tuilagi Lawrence.

I'd hope Hill will be released from the squad by next week's game.

To much to hope we get Ford/Manu/Lawrence isn't it.

I was buzzing when Hill came on today. He’s garbage internationally. Just in a steady Exeter pack and built a reputation from there. Weak as pee really. Sure he’ll look good next week at HQ mind, but really you must have better locks than him.

Yeah they had Ribbans and Rowlands who have always been better than Hill. Will Rowlands played well again didn’t he, bring on the abuse Wink

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Post by Rugby Fan Mon 07 Aug 2023, 1:43 am

Whatever the final squad selection, it's harder than usual to feel anyone will be wronged by exclusion.

Slade is allegedly a high profile casualty. While he's a talented footballer, the occasions when he has shone for England are few. There's nothing in his Test record like that long touchfinder for Exeter, which led to a matchwinning score against Saracens.

There are also a lot of uncapped, or rarely capped, players who might be the real deal. However, we have frequently got excited about club form, only to see it fail to translate. Maybe the likes of Pearson, Mitchell, Mercer, Murley, Freeman etc are exactly what England need. On the other hand, they could be no better than anyone else in the squad. The jaded response (and there are many jaded England supporters) is to assume the latter.

In the end, we are mainly hoping Borthwick and his coaching team can find the secret sauce to make an England team better than the sum of its parts, so the debate over individual parts seems less important than before.

This next tournament feels like it could either be a repeat of 2007, when a misfiring team finally found it's mojo, or 2011, when a misfiring team had one of the best possible routes to the final but couldn't get out of second gear.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 07 Aug 2023, 6:49 am

10 am announcement then. Its like waking up in Christmas not quite sure what you're going to get!

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Post by mountain man Mon 07 Aug 2023, 8:33 am

I'm working on likely hood it's the squad as announced by Telegraph above so that's it.
As expected really.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 07 Aug 2023, 8:36 am

Well think we're the second team to announce, so loads of time for the players to gel even more.

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Post by mountain man Mon 07 Aug 2023, 8:42 am

Maybe some hand gel as well to get ball to stick ...

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 07 Aug 2023, 8:46 am

Slippy ball in the principality so a bit of a fluke. I doubt you'll be seeing Martin slipping off tackles or dropping the ball in world cup. Probably the 1 slight error made in the game by the coaches to be fair was for playing a bit too loose in the first half. Handling improve loads in the 2nd. Incremental improvements and all that.

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Post by mountain man Mon 07 Aug 2023, 8:49 am

Yep closed roof causes issues but Wales coped ok.
You expect pro team to anticipate and practice under those conditions.
Anyway onwards and upwards. Maybe.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Mon 07 Aug 2023, 8:52 am

Is the ball not the same type of slippy in wet weather or on a wet pitch?
WELL-PAST-IT
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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 07 Aug 2023, 9:00 am

It's like that Hong Kong Lions match. Just different.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 07 Aug 2023, 9:04 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well think we're the second team to announce, so loads of time for the players to gel even more.

Boo. NZ are second. They've named the most experienced squad in the history of the comp, probably due to the additional squad numbers. Just reinforces that Borthwick is right to go with experience over promise.

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Post by Geordie Mon 07 Aug 2023, 10:03 am

The predicted squad has been confirmed.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 07 Aug 2023, 10:04 am

Great squad that. As suggested by the Torygraph.Completely the right idea to have a flanker cover 8 for the tournament, allows Billy to get the run of 80 mins he needs for fitness consistently, but then we have the likes of Earl or Curry adding their carrying from the base as required. Initially surprised by Dan's inclusion but as Borthwick said we need to get back to traditional strengths and I think although we lost a few lineouts etc he's best placed in this squad. Exciting times.

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Post by Mr Bounce Mon 07 Aug 2023, 10:05 am

I can rest easy. No Mako.

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