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England's Summer of Cricket 2023, Featuring The Ashes

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Post by king_carlos Sun 02 Jul 2023, 11:24 pm

First topic message reminder :

If Pope can't play I'd probably prefer Foakes coming in, taking the gloves, myself. Maybe:

1.Crawley 2.Duckett 3.Brook 4.Root 5.Bairstow 6.Stokes (c) 7.Foakes (wk)

It means a rejigging of the order but gets better players in the XI than Lawrence at 3 IMO. Particularly when I'm not that convinced by Lawrence against higher pace. Given the 15 man squad that isn't on the cards though.

If Wood is genuinely fit I'd like his pace in the attack but would probably ere towards the seam heavy attack again if the 4  below are good to go:

8.Woakes 9.Broad 10.Wood 11.Tongue

If Wood isn't fit then:

8.Moeen 9.Woakes 10.Broad 11.Tongue

Which does have a lot of batting depth on the upside.

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Post by alfie Wed 19 Jul 2023, 4:15 pm

Been off watching Le Tour... But I see I've missed Broad's 600th . Bounced Head out , did he ?

Good start to the session thumbsup

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Post by Duty281 Wed 19 Jul 2023, 4:16 pm

203/5. I'd like to see pace at both ends, rather than Moeen, at this juncture. Building up to be one of those special spells from Broad, whatever England do.

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Post by JDizzle Wed 19 Jul 2023, 4:25 pm

Duty281 wrote:600 for Broad! And the most wickets against Australia by an Englishman, surpassing Botham. clap clap clap

Plus a vital wicket in the context of this game. Nice catch in the deep.

Broad's the 5th man to reach 600 test wickets. Will there be a 6th, I wonder?

The fact Botham had the most vs Australia but Broad had the most in the Ashes caused me an argument in a pub quiz recently - so thankfully that ambiguity is removed!

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Post by alfie Wed 19 Jul 2023, 4:27 pm

Marsh looking dangerous again. Off to a solid start. Agree with Duty about pace both ends ; although Moeen has troubled Green previously.

217/5. Couple of quick wickets now would make that scoreboard look pretty good ! But got to get them first...

This is a very deep batting list.

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Post by GSC Wed 19 Jul 2023, 4:32 pm

Marsh threatening to take the game away quickly
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Post by Duty281 Wed 19 Jul 2023, 4:34 pm

Moeen being given too long. You've got to use Moeen like a part-timer. Yes, he might get the odd wicket, but bowl him too long and he'll probably get smashed.

Marsh building himself toward another counter-attack. He's into the 30s, and every time against England that he has got into the 30s he has gone on to make a ton.

Broad unfortunate to only get one wicket in his spell so far. Beaten the bat a few times, got a couple edges, found prodigious swing, but no further wickets.

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Post by GSC Wed 19 Jul 2023, 4:35 pm

Wood popping up for a spell
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Wed 19 Jul 2023, 4:37 pm

I can't do Mitch Marsh runs again I just can't
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Post by Duty281 Wed 19 Jul 2023, 4:40 pm

Really good over from Mark Wood. Stokes fumbling a possible run-out chance.

Moeen 6-0-32-0 in this evening session. But looks as though that'll be his lot for now.

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Post by alfie Wed 19 Jul 2023, 4:54 pm

245/5 now. Frustrating for England today : can't get any double breaks. Every time they get a wicket , another solid partnership forms. This is a pretty good surface for batting . Going to be hard to get the result they want I think , given we are unlikely to see 450 overs in the match.

Marsh loves batting against England , doesn't he ?

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Post by king_carlos Wed 19 Jul 2023, 4:57 pm

England and the Marsh brothers. F***ing exasperating. Bloke averages 27 from a long go in Test cricket and he plays these innings against England.

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Post by alfie Wed 19 Jul 2023, 4:57 pm

And fifty for Marsh clap

Was a timely injury for Green to let him into the side , from Australia's viewpoint. Doubt we'd have seen him in the series otherwise.

England need a wicket from somewhere...again. Woakes time...

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Post by alfie Wed 19 Jul 2023, 5:00 pm

And yes he's got one ! Pending review...

No bat... Yes ! Umpires call goes England's way and Green is gone...

Close , but looked good enough live. Lots of lbw today !

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Post by Duty281 Wed 19 Jul 2023, 5:00 pm

Vital slice of fortune that goes England's way. An umpire's call lands in their favour. Always loved that Joel Wilson chap.

Green never did look right in that innings.

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Post by Duty281 Wed 19 Jul 2023, 5:04 pm

What a catch by Bairstow! What a day for Woakes, again.

Mitchell Marsh is out! Shocked

Was just about to point out that Marsh's test average v non-English opponents is just 20.75. Never mind that now, England have gone back-to-back.

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Post by alfie Wed 19 Jul 2023, 5:05 pm

Wow ! Woakes finds Marsh's edge and Jonny takes a worldie !

Two quick wickets , eh ? Woakes is on fire

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Post by king_carlos Wed 19 Jul 2023, 5:08 pm

Bang bang. Guildford's adage strikes.

That grab should do YJBs confidence the world of good.

Re that stat on Marsh, Duty. It's not just the runs but how fluently he gets them against England that is bizarre. There was the dire drop from Root at Headingley but his ball striking after that was astonishing. He again looked so fluent today.

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Post by alfie Wed 19 Jul 2023, 5:09 pm

That ought to give YJB a bit of confidence. Was a ripper ! In truth his main problem has been taking chances on the leg side ; but just the same that's one he might well have missed last week.

Woakes has bowled brilliantly today. Need Wood to come to the party now with just Carey and the bowlers left - though a couple of them can bat Wink

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Post by Duty281 Wed 19 Jul 2023, 5:10 pm

Curious to see Carey wanting to keep the strike. No faith in Starc, it seems.

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Post by king_carlos Wed 19 Jul 2023, 5:13 pm

Duty281 wrote:Curious to see Carey wanting to keep the strike. No faith in Starc, it seems.
Odd IMO. I can only presume that's due to Wood's pace. Starc is a decent lower order batter though. 10 Test half centuries and an average comfortably over 20 for a reason.

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Post by alfie Wed 19 Jul 2023, 5:24 pm

Does seem strange. Starc can score quickly so maybe he just wants to protect him until they can see Wood off and then let him loose ?

Some batting order , this , with Cummins in at ten !

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Post by king_carlos Wed 19 Jul 2023, 5:26 pm

I find Woakes coming round the wicket to Carey a bit odd. Carey is worse against right-arm seamers over the wicket and I often think Woakes looks more dangerous from over the wicket. He's bowled brilliantly today so hopefully it pays off but just seems an odd switch at this time.

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Post by alfie Wed 19 Jul 2023, 5:34 pm

Couple of unusually loose ones from Jimmy then and Starc cashed in. Now Moeen back with the two left handers at the crease... Probably worth a try ?

New ball in 11.

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Post by Duty281 Wed 19 Jul 2023, 5:38 pm

Hopefully they'll be bowled out before the new ball; it will be a problem if they aren't.

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Post by king_carlos Wed 19 Jul 2023, 5:49 pm

Australia will presumably declare for a few overs before close if it comes to that.

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Post by GSC Wed 19 Jul 2023, 6:08 pm

Surprised they haven't been a bit more aggressive batting out until the new ball
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Post by alfie Wed 19 Jul 2023, 6:18 pm

The merits of a deep batting order...these two have frustrated England after they'd removed the dangerous pair of Marsh and Green. Nothing too reckless , just sensible batting on a good pitch. Going to have a few overs with the new ball now so maybe another one can be prised out tonight ?

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Post by Duty281 Wed 19 Jul 2023, 6:22 pm

New ball does the job, another one for Woakes. Pick him every time in England, but never pick him outside of England!

Can England get these last two tonight? Even if they do it's looking an uphill task to win this.

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Post by alfie Wed 19 Jul 2023, 6:24 pm

That's a yes then Wink

Woakes continues to impress ...Carey edges behind and it's 294/8. New ball does the trick thumbsup

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Post by alfie Wed 19 Jul 2023, 6:28 pm

For a moment I thought he wasn't going to give it out... Was just a little inside edge but enough. Two more needed and unlikely to manage that tonight : but not a bad days work getting eight out on this pitch ...might have wished for a few less runs scored.

As you say , Duty : won't be easy to get a result from here but they've not been batted out of it.

One more over ?

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Post by GSC Wed 19 Jul 2023, 6:36 pm

Pretty even day. England maybe a little unfortunate to not get much reward for some very good spells, but Australia have rather thrown away the chance to bat England out of the game/series with most of the top/middle order getting a start
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Wed 19 Jul 2023, 6:37 pm

GSC wrote:Surprised they haven't been a bit more aggressive batting out until the new ball

Agree with this - thought Carey and Starc would’ve taken to Moeen more than they did. Missed a chance to put some pressure on before the new ball and get over 300 imo.

Even day for me, pitch is more Edgbaston than Headingley for sure
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Post by Duty281 Wed 19 Jul 2023, 6:45 pm

I'd say Australia's day, just about. But emphatically Australia's day when you consider the weather forecast and that England need to win.

Scorecard is strange because looking at it you'd think it's a potential minefield, the sort where you're never in, because of the number of batsmen making starts and not kicking on to big scores, but it hasn't been like that.

England will be frustrated because they bowled well enough to take all ten wickets today, but fortune largely didn't favour them.

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Post by KP_fan Wed 19 Jul 2023, 6:49 pm

When watching the game in first session I would have pronounced 300-8 as Eng's day......I am not sure anymore.
The pitch has something in it.....
Every English bowler got something out of the pitch with the exception of Anderson.
Swing & Wobble for Woakes (outstanding in last two innings)
Nibble for Broad, Spin for Ali, Bursting Pace for Wood....NOTHING for Anderson
Will they turn his home-ground game into his last or give Anderson an announced farewell in T5  England's Summer of Cricket 2023, Featuring The Ashes - Page 19 2753

Given the pitch I believe the par is ~300ish or thereabout.
And so if Eng get them for 310ish they would done OK....didn't let Aus get away.

If Nos 9.10 and 11 can work their way to 340...Aus would have done well...given all 3 tests have been close.

From Aussie POV they played  positively......did not go in a shell and except Khawaja, EVERYONE got runs.
They will have atleast  par runs on the board to bowl at Eng with in the worst case.
Read of Runes shows another very close test in the offing
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Post by GSC Wed 19 Jul 2023, 6:51 pm

Seems harsh on Jimmy, routinely beating the edge but never quite finding it with the new ball. Can't really offer much more than control when it gets older though. I would guess the send off won't be too far away at this point sadly
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Post by Duty281 Wed 19 Jul 2023, 6:52 pm

Anderson got the ball moving both ways, beat the bat numerous times and found the edge on a few occasions. Certainly not NOTHING.

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Post by JDizzle Wed 19 Jul 2023, 7:02 pm

CricViz, take with a pinch of salt, have Anderson’s expected wickets at 1.7 - exactly the same as Woakes - in 2 less overs. Only been following online, but the stats suggest Jimmy a tad unlucky and Woakes a tad lucky today.

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Post by Duty281 Wed 19 Jul 2023, 7:07 pm

Seems a bit harsh on Woakes, but about right for Anderson.

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Post by VTR Wed 19 Jul 2023, 7:34 pm

I didn't watch it, so I won't attempt to analyse the play based on the scorecard

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Post by Duty281 Wed 19 Jul 2023, 7:43 pm

VTR wrote:I didn't watch it, so I won't attempt to analyse the play based on the scorecard

Just say Head got out to a defensive prod and you're well on the way.

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Post by msp83 Wed 19 Jul 2023, 7:58 pm

Anderson did get the ball to move a bit in that early spell. But with the oldish ball he neveer seemed likely to get a wicket. The thing with Woakes is that on an average, he has been a couple MPH faster than Anderson. That can make a difference... Woakes bowled well and deserved his success. Broad probably, particularly early on, wasn't at his very best, yet could make a proper impact.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Wed 19 Jul 2023, 9:59 pm

Duty281 wrote:Anderson got the ball moving both ways, beat the bat numerous times and found the edge on a few occasions. Certainly not NOTHING.

Yeah been critical of Jimmy this series, but today was just bad luck (summed up by the edge from Starc falling literally like what, half a foot in front of slip?) and an inside edge a few balls later somehow missing the stumps, in those final few overs of the day.

Does need to remedy it with some wickets in the 2nd innings though - he's on the verge of taking 3 wickets across 5 innings so far in the series, no matter your luck England need those returns to improve sharply, and in the 2nd dig of this game.
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Post by JDizzle Wed 19 Jul 2023, 10:15 pm

I will be heading to Old Trafford tomorrow - and I’ve never seen England win a day of Test cricket in person so I apologise in advance for the 50-5 start that is to come. Just want to see Wood bowl a few overs a 95 tomorrow morning though…

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Post by Duty281 Wed 19 Jul 2023, 10:38 pm

You might see the Bazballiest declaration ever tomorrow.

Just looking at the forecast and Saturday/Sunday still looks a washout, and there's even a chance of some rain on Friday morning just to make things worse.

So I wouldn't be surprised if England do something crazy such as declare on 200-250 at around tea or just after tomorrow; with the aim of bowling Australia out for under 200 in the third innings; and aiming to chase down the sub-300 target in the afternoon and evening of Friday, thereby making it 2-2 as the rain soaks Manchester over the weekend.

It would be the Bazballiest Bazballing win to have ever Bazballed if England pulled it off.

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Post by alfie Thu 20 Jul 2023, 8:53 am

The previous Test took just 240 overs so a Friday finish is theoretically possible for these teams Smile

This pitch looks more bat friendly though. Task for England this day is clearly to wrap up the Aussie innings sharpish (something they do about half the time) and then score very quickly - something they do almost always. Have to beware of overcommitting and treating JD to that collapse , of course !

If (IF !) they could score fast and bat the day I don't see any need for a crazy declaration. Surely can't be locking in a total washout of two days in a row - even in Manchester ; so better to shoot for a decent lead and pressure Australia in a third innings. But the way this series has gone , anything is possible...

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Post by KP_fan Thu 20 Jul 2023, 9:05 am

msp83 wrote:Anderson did get the ball to move a bit in that early spell. But with the oldish ball he neveer seemed likely to get a wicket. The thing with Woakes is that on an average, he has been a couple MPH faster than Anderson. That can make a difference... Woakes bowled well and deserved his success. Broad probably, particularly early on, wasn't at his very best, yet could make a proper impact.

In these English conditions any Ranji / FC bowler even at 78mph will beat the edges with new ball.
And Anderson has not dropped from 100 directly down to ZERO...so sure he too will beat the edge some times.
What is required to convert to wickets is..
half a yard faster
quarter yard fuller
4 inches closer to off-stump
the physical energy & mental focus to do it ball, after ball and over after over and further energy to slip in a a few effort short ones to push batsman back..get one inswinger spot on after a beating twice on the outside edge and so on

That  England's Summer of Cricket 2023, Featuring The Ashes - Page 19 1f446 sustained effort translates to wickets .....beating the edges only gets you dumped and pushes you into retirement  England's Summer of Cricket 2023, Featuring The Ashes - Page 19 1f601
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Post by KP_fan Thu 20 Jul 2023, 9:08 am

Duty281 wrote:You might see the Bazballiest declaration ever tomorrow.

Just looking at the forecast and Saturday/Sunday still looks a washout, and there's even a chance of some rain on Friday morning just to make things worse.

So I wouldn't be surprised if England do something crazy such as declare on 200-250 at around tea or just after tomorrow; with the aim of bowling Australia out for under 200 in the third innings; and aiming to chase down the sub-300 target in the afternoon and evening of Friday, thereby making it 2-2 as the rain soaks Manchester over the weekend.

It would be the Bazballiest Bazballing win to have ever Bazballed if England pulled it off.

OK stuff that M.M.O are made up off England's Summer of Cricket 2023, Featuring The Ashes - Page 19 1f601
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 20 Jul 2023, 9:11 am

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/66113910

If you're at a loose end for a half hour, then try this! Very difficult some of them. I ended up with 187/234

Spoiler:
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Post by GSC Thu 20 Jul 2023, 11:04 am

Jimmy up front!
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Post by alfie Thu 20 Jul 2023, 11:04 am

Well Jimmy had no luck yesterday : but that first ball this morning evened up a bit Wink

The start England wanted ... Nearly cleaned up Hazlewood first ball too.

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