England still winning the RWC at a canter - The quarter finals and beyond

First topic message reminder :

Carried on..............

carpet baboon wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:I see Andy Goode is saying he has.it on good authority that Arundel isn't getting picked because he had a "scrap" with Farrell in training

I doubt it. More like Goode has it on hearsay and is reporting it as fact because his media career needs a boost.

Are you saying mr Goode would intentionally say something to grab some attention?
Something sensational just so people pay attention to him??

I find that incredibly credible

I used to like Goode, especially during his playing career. I find him more and more a bit of an egotistical prat these days though.....seems to think his opinion is the final word on a multitude of topics.

My biggest issue with him is some of the more sensational things he says, I don't think even he believes them and it's just all for attention.

Have met him a couple of times when he's been the after dinner speaker, and he he seems a different person to his twitter/pod cast persona

Yep met him once at an England dinner and he was perfectly nice - went off him a bit when he stitched up London Irish by not joining at the last minute and leaving us without a FH, then popped up at Falcons ... don't like him as a pundit at all ...

Not defending Goode but I guess there are a lot of ex players now doing stuff on YouTube and articles etc so I assume he's trying to stand out by making himself heard etc.

mountain man wrote:Not defending Goode but I guess there are a lot of ex players now doing stuff on YouTube and articles etc so I assume he's trying to stand out by making himself heard etc.

If his plan is to come across as an utter prat, he's doing a great job.

Maybe. He was quite amusing as a player, and a decent 10. He had some good interactions with Barnes.

Maybe I underestimate how different things are these days, but 'Rugby players have a scrap in training' doesn't really strike me as sensational news, or even as news.

I call it a croc of sh1t.....

Farrell isnt that petty, and i think he would respect a youngster not backing down from him (if it happened at all)

When the RugbyPod kicked off it felt like something fresh. Hamilton was a fairly dire pundit back then but Goode had some decent insights. Hamilton has improved so much though. Some of the mini-doc type things he's done with RugbyPass (without Goode...) have been great, his punditry is incomparably more insightful and he just generally seems to have taken a more professional view to the job. As such he's now breaking into bigger gigs such as the Six Nations and RWC.

Goode, and with it the pod, have just sat still. Both feel stagnant. Do a generic impression of someone northern when talking about either Farrell, Ford or Shaun Edwards. Talk about the size of a former teammates k**b or pubes. Goode goes on a rant about his latest pet hate being s**t at everything. Rinse and repeat. Same w**k, different week. It's a shame as the pod was once a decent listen.

That difference in how Goode and Hamilton have progressed as pundits is likely why Goode still has the pod as his main outlet whilst he mills around doing after dinner stuff. Whilst the pod must increasingly be a secondary thing for big Jim as his career has grown.

All that said I wouldn't be surprised if there's been a training ground scrap. As 7.5 says they happen a lot in contact sports. I doubt it's anything to do with selection though. More that Arundell hasn't looked that comfortable on the wing against good opposition. He's an insane talent but only started 5 games for LI last season due to injuries and those were at FB. Simply a pundit with a tendency to make mountains out of molehills doing just that.

On Arundell. That temporary move to Racing might help his development I think. Looking at their squad it just feels like a good place for him to be on a short-term move.

Max Spring is a another very talented young fullback so Arundell may get more time on the wing. Which I think would be a good thing for his all-round development. Or if Arundell is staring at FB ahead Spring he'll have to have really shone there. Which would be great in its own way, obviously. Whilst regardless he will get exposure to what is now by a distance the best domestic league in the world.

Their wing options are Habosi (electric), Imhoff (quality player and Racing stalwart but he is 35 now), Taofifenau (pocket rocket), Wama Naituvi (Fijian from Pro D2 with 3 tries in 3 rounds this season) and Wade (still there). They have plenty of good options but ones that someone with Arundell's raw talent could get past for game time if he performs.

https://www.606v2.com/t71249-3rd-qf-england-v-fiji-stade-de-marseille

Rugby Fan's match thread for the QF there. Thanks, RF!

Looks like England did a great bit of business in sacking Jones and bringing in Borthwick now. What a mess he has left in RA. Brace yourself Japan.

Collapse2005 wrote:Looks like England did a great bit of business in sacking Jones and bringing in Borthwick now. What a mess he has left in RA. Brace yourself Japan.

Australia were playing at the RWC like England did under Jones

lostinwales wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Looks like England did a great bit of business in sacking Jones and bringing in Borthwick now. What a mess he has left in RA. Brace yourself Japan.

Australia were playing at the RWC like England did under Jones

He clearly has a vision of how he sees the future of attack in rugby, but hasn't found the personnel to implement it. I could see him getting it working in Japan, who've responded well his vision in the past (and performed well above expectations as a result). But the trail of contractual devastation he seems to be leaving behind him must be causing a lot of regret in the boardrooms of the unions he's left behind.

The penny may have dropped for Jones that at international level fans and management want each game treated as important as the last and the next and explaining every loss as part of some future master plan is not acceptable. Australia 100% would have been in the quarter finals if Rennie was still in charge and there is a good chance England wouldnt be if Jones was still with England in my view.

ARU don’t come out of this looking good… Wonder if there’ll be change there. EJ actually made Aus worse. A few Australians seem to think that Rennie had them building towards something.

And Borthwick has made England worse, so swings and roundabouts.

No 7&1/2 wrote:And Borthwick has made England worse, so swings and roundabouts.

I don't think you'll find many that agree. Now, whether he has made them significantly better is a different question, and whether Borthwick is the right coach going on after the RWC is still to be seen. But the last months of Eddie were a desparate time for England.

I've got mixed views on both of those.

I think Eddie had a plan for the RWC that was actually quite exciting, but it was too complicated to implement quickly with the resources he had, and he lost the support of the RFU leaving behind a very confused squad.

Borthwick has taken an ultra pragmatic approach to the RWC. He's relying on experience ahead of future talent, and he's focusing on fitness and basics ahead of a creative attacking plan. Both of those are pretty reasonable calls when you inherit a team in poor shape that close to world rugby's major tournament.

He's made a few bolder calls. Bringing in Sinfield was one, and Aled Walters was another. I know not everyone agrees with my analysis of what he's doing on fitness, but we will see on Sunday. The boldest yet would be playing Smith at 15 in a knockout match, as is widely rumoured.

So far, I think that most of what he's done has been sensible (with hindsight), but given the draw for this RWC a QF was near certain.

A good win against Fiji and then a good performance in the semi-final would indicate a degree of progress. I suspect his deal with the RFU will make it hard to sack him before the 6N, whatever happens, so the real test of whether he's right for the job will be the squad he builds for the 6N and how they perform. Given where England will be in rebuilding relative to Ireland and France, you wouldn't expect them to be challenging for the title but good performances while bringing through some new players and establishing an attacking style would be what I would look for.

No 7&1/2 wrote:And Borthwick has made England worse, so swings and roundabouts.

How?

Even more aimless kicking. Lack of ambition and bravery. Worse coaching staff. I didn't think it possible towards the end of Jones reign but he's managed it.

Jones time was up. End of.
Australia has shown his erratic and illogical selections has done for them as it did for England. I can't say I'm at all thrilled so far with Borthwick but I have no regrets about Jones going

Is Eddie being castigated for doing what many wanted Steve to do?
Mainly picking for the next World Cup, especially as it's a home one.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Even more aimless kicking. Lack of ambition and bravery. Worse coaching staff. I didn't think it possible towards the end of Jones reign but he's managed it.

broadlandboy wrote:Is Eddie being castigated for doing what many wanted Steve to do?
Mainly picking for the next World Cup, especially as it's a home one.

Very possibly...but surely you dont drop certain players...Hooper is a talisman. Was he injured ? I think leaving him was huge.

Borthwick elected to go for the old guard, but he will have no option but to change quite a bit post world cup.

The irony is many of us would like Borthwick to do what Jones did and ditch an icon, in the form of Farrell.

lostinwales wrote:The irony is many of us would like Borthwick to do what Jones did and ditch an icon,  in the form of Farrell.

Id rather have hooper in my side than Farrell....

Geordie wrote:

lostinwales wrote:The irony is many of us would like Borthwick to do what Jones did and ditch an icon,  in the form of Farrell.

Id rather have hooper in my side than Farrell....

Oh absolutely. Just made me think about how Farrell might be perceived by other countries and about how Hooper is such a big name in Australian rugby that there is a danger he overshadows the rest of the team too much.

Geordie wrote:

lostinwales wrote:The irony is many of us would like Borthwick to do what Jones did and ditch an icon,  in the form of Farrell.

I'd rather have Hooper in my side than Farrell....

Not for discipline, though. Hooper picked up nine yellow cards in his Test career, which may still be the record for any player.

He pushes the boundaries and has been in a woeful team.

Geordie wrote:He pushes the boundaries and has been in a woeful team.

Which one?

lostinwales wrote:

Geordie wrote:He pushes the boundaries and has been in a woeful team.

Which one?

Theyve both been in poor teams but only one has stood out every time carry his side.

Geordie wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Geordie wrote:He pushes the boundaries and has been in a woeful team.

Which one?

Theyve both been in poor teams but only one has stood out every time carry his side.

Hooper is a game changer.

The Boks on Saturday it is then. It was going to be a huge challenge either way. A repeat of the 2019 final.

England somehow won that AI clash in 2021 by a point. SA won the 2022 fixture easily to end Eddie's tenure.

I don't honestly have massive hopes. England have got further than many were saying they would though. It gives the guys who were also there in 2019 a chance to go again.

king_carlos wrote:The Boks on Saturday it is then. It was going to be a huge challenge either way. A repeat of the 2019 final.

England somehow won that AI clash in 2021 by a point. SA won the 2022 fixture easily to end Eddie's tenure.

I don't honestly have massive hopes. England have got further than many were saying they would though. It gives the guys who were also there in 2019 a chance to go again.

Yeah its a real big one on Saturday KC. We can go in with nothing to lose now. And Borthwick will have us set up best he can for this game.

I do think its a step too far for this particular set of players though...BUT...you just never know. They're just becoming hard to beat.

At least everyone can hold their hands up and say wow SB is definitely turning things around and imagine when we start developing the attack....we're going to be quite a side...

Boks barely beat us and we haven't got an attack yet...

Well I agree that SA beat us and we haven't got a good attack.

https://archive.ph/r8LH3

An interesting read (borrowed from elsewhere) and pretty much along the lines of what I think will happen...with a few exceptions...the defence Coach for example.

I was expecting Felix Jones to be working with attack and defence. He's very well rated as a coach. AFAIK he's done a bit of both with the Boks. His official title with them is something weird like, "European coaching consultant". He's been with them for a while and is very well regarded though. When Nienaber, a defence coach by trade, became head coach I believe Jones started doing more defence work to free him up. Whether as a transition coach or outright defence coach he's a really good coup. The Boks defence is probably the hardest to play against in the sport currently.

I was interested to hear in a Squidge video that Wigglesworth's job title is apparently, "kicking strategy coach", as well. I'd just seen him referred to as "assistant coach" up until then. It seemed he was a skills coach working across the backs and kicking.

Head coach - Borthwick
Defence - Jones
Attack/backs - ???
Kicking - Wigglesworth
S&C - Walters
Scrum - Harrison

I was expecting Jones to slot into the attack/backs role whilst also working with defence with Sinfield staying. If Sinfield is moving on with Jones as outright defence coach then I wonder if another attack coach might be lined up though? That could be anyone at this stage. Post RWC is a point where coaches often move. For instance, outgoing Portugal head coach Patrice Lagisquet's stock will now be at a high having stepped away for a while after leaving the France setup in 2015.

Interesting article from telegraph, thanks for posting Georgie. I did wonder what will happen over the next few months about squad changes and who should stay and who should go. Worryingly for me it says Billy might be retained for mentoring. I think his type of rugby is long since gone. Earl showed what we need from an 8 at international level. SB has bought some time so must use it wisely to develop another string to this squads bow.....an attack that scores tries.

Well Lawes is gone.

I'd not heard any rumours of Sinfoled leaving bar this article. Sounds like we may be getting a Jones approach and constant flux of coaches if true. That's not a bad thing in itself Alex Ferguson always did it to keep the ideas fresh and moving. I think we should try it with the head coach after the WC is done.
Wigglesworth...whether it be attack coach or kicking strategy coach is stealing a living.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well Lawes is gone.

Yeah thought that maybe the case

Been superb for England over his career, shame couldn't have gone out on ultimate high but not for want of his trying.
First of several to go post RWC I'd think.

Yeah i think there'll be a number of retirements...Ben young, Billy V etc all to follow.

Sinfield is a curious one (if this happens) as it says mutual agreement. Does that mean he was only ever going to do the 6n and World Cup. Seems alot of money outlay for such a short time. And odd when the defence seems to be improving nicely now. Any way a very proven coach coming in to replace him.

Attack will be the interesting one. That needs to start developing now.

As to the next squad...well until we know who is definately retiring and ineligible (due to France) difficult to say.

Props are the key though...wonder if SB will be talking to the clubs to get all the EQ props on scrummaging plans.

Lawes is the first of what I expect to be many post world cup retirements. His international career started off a bit iffy, notably when he was picked at 7 but over the past 8 years or so has been a mainstay in the side and his overall work rate will be hard to replace. I'm hoping he'll be remembered for his all round excellence rather than just the big hits, he seemed to have a particular liking for French half backs.

Geordie wrote:https://archive.ph/r8LH3

An interesting read (borrowed from elsewhere) and pretty much along the lines of what I think will happen...with a few exceptions...the defence Coach for example.

4 more years of complaining about how Farrell is strangling our attack. Can't wait.

Its not all set in stone...

To be fair him Farrells play was generally excellent but if he stays, id move him away from the captaincy...

Ideally another 10 will really put his hand up for the spot.

Lawes is a massive player who will not be replaced for a long time. Thank you Mr Lawes, have a lovely retirement you have been brilliant.

Losing a backrow with 100plus caps and an incredible engine who can also go up in the lineout is problematic for the six nations. Ludlum, Martin from current squad. SB could reunite curry and Underhill. Who are people's favourite to come in?

Kenningham?

Underhill is such a good player but the concussion issue will always raise question marks over his future career. There are other options. Pearson of course and Kenningham was a name being mentioned not that long ago. No idea how well Ewan Richards is doing now but he was another promising U20 player.
Ilione is another much mentioned prospect.

Kenningham scored this weekend and played well.

I notice Ehren Painter is also starting for Chiefs and scored. I wonder if Baxter is doing a rejuvenation job n the Tight head...that would be very good. 25, 6'4 and 21 stone...