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England - the build-up and winning the World Cup at a canter

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 24 Aug 2023, 6:58 am

Smith in the back field worked nicely against Ireland. We could interchange him and Steward on defensive duty but keep both in the backfield to receive kicks. Ford dropping in it one or the other has chased a kick up field.

I'd like to see if given a go as the attack does need an injection of something and the AB tactic isn't a bad one. Ruck speed and security needs a big upgrade though as that is the main element killing our attack.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 24 Aug 2023, 7:29 am

As long as it is only the plan b extreme option. I can't see it needed to much to be honest with the control and territory we're getting.

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Post by Geordie Thu 24 Aug 2023, 8:03 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Man Smith to full back is really radical left field thinking from Borthwick; I love it! I was a bit concerned that Borthwick would move too far away from ideas that were clearing working with Jones but pleased he's trying the exact same things as 9 just under a year ago. And I agree if the players somehow throw this away the fault lies with them, they've been given the absolute best prep available. They just need to go out and enjoy it now. England expects!

Is there a reason your continuing to be such a d*7k?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 24 Aug 2023, 8:16 am

Wow. Can't we just enjoy the rugby. You may not want to let yourself get caught up in the excitement but this is the pinnacle of some.pf these lads careers. The fact they're obviously enjoying their rugby doesn't mean that they're not absolutely ready.

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Post by Poorfour Thu 24 Aug 2023, 8:22 am

Eggs and baskets… having Smith and Ford on the pitch at the same time might put a bit of spark in England’s attack, but it also means that both of the available fly halves with any appreciable international experience are on the pitch at the same time against a team not known for their gentle approach to the game.

But hey. We’ll be going into the Argentina game without a No 8, so why not roll the dice some more?
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Post by Geordie Thu 24 Aug 2023, 8:27 am

Poorfour wrote:Eggs and baskets… having Smith and Ford on the pitch at the same time might put a bit of spark in England’s attack, but it also means that both of the available fly halves with any appreciable international experience are on the pitch at the same time against a team not known for their gentle approach to the game.

But hey. We’ll be going into the Argentina game without a No 8, so why not roll the dice some more?

Without a first choice tighthead
Without an established lock pairing
Without our first choice 7
Without a first chocie 9
With doubt over who to play at 10
Without an established 12
Without an established wing pairing

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Post by mountain man Thu 24 Aug 2023, 8:38 am

Has Smith at 15 been a serious suggestion from Borthwick?
I want to see a more attacking 15 so he would be that but given the physicality of Fiji I'm not sure he'll stop them. He's a good tackler, brave and makes his tackles despite what some clowns think but he's not biggest guy.

I'd try Arundell at 15 for Fiji.

I also think Fiji have a very good chance of win which doesn't fill me with joy. Great for them of course but dire for Eng.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 24 Aug 2023, 8:45 am

I don't think Fiji will be within 10 points of England.

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Post by Oakdene Thu 24 Aug 2023, 8:57 am

I think it will all depend on Fiji's discipline 7.5. If they can avoid yellows, I think they are really in with a chance.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 24 Aug 2023, 9:11 am

Not against this team Oak. Seen enough in the 6Ns and these warm ups to know we'll just strangle the life put of them. They'll need to be scoring length of the field tries if we put anything like our first team out there.

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Post by mountain man Thu 24 Aug 2023, 9:24 am

Which Fiji are capable of doing. Eng struggling to score a 5m try.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 24 Aug 2023, 9:30 am

They can't do it consistently through a match though mm. We'll control possession again starve them of the ball. We've been unlucky so far and that's unlikely to continue. Plus these are meaningless matches anyway.

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Post by Big Thu 24 Aug 2023, 9:37 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't think Fiji will be within 10 points of England.


I think what you're saying is true, I don't think it will be within 10, I'm just genuinely not sure which way. I don't know why, but my gut instinct is that England are finally going to click into gear and get a good win. However, if they continue to do lots of aimless kicking with no pressure on the receiver then they are going to pay for it.

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Post by mountain man Thu 24 Aug 2023, 9:51 am

Warm up matches in grand context of RWC are meaningless but the perception of media, supporters and even players must be swayed by performances and results in them.

England have been truly dire, as bad as I can remember. If they suddenly click and play brilliant WINNNG rugby in RWC then great and I'll take it but I honestly have my doubts they can turn it around that much. They might get through group and scrape through to SF even but it's all been pretty depressing so far.

Teams sometimes need to click for it all to come together but usually in that case several individuals have been really good but whole hasn't quite come off. With England the individuals have mostly been poor to terrible and collectively awful.

So many are way off their best I find it hard to believe it's all going to come good and it's just Borthwick and co keeping the grand scheme under wraps.

I'd love to be proved wrong though.

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Post by Mr Bounce Thu 24 Aug 2023, 10:59 am

Weather forecast is light rain on Saturday. I am guessing that England will be dropping a few balls...

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Post by mountain man Thu 24 Aug 2023, 11:06 am

Mr Bounce wrote:Weather forecast is light rain on Saturday. I am guessing that England will be dropping a few balls...

Well in fairness they have been practising doing that.

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Post by Heaf Thu 24 Aug 2023, 11:22 am

mountain man wrote:
Mr Bounce wrote:Weather forecast is light rain on Saturday. I am guessing that England will be dropping a few balls...

Well in fairness they have been practising doing that.

In fact they've been world class at that ...

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Post by Poorfour Thu 24 Aug 2023, 12:59 pm

Teams up:
15 Steward
14 Malins
13 Lawrence
12 Tuilagi
11 May
10 Ford
9 Mitchell
1 Genge
2 Dan
3 Sinckler
4 Itoje
5 Chessum
6 Lawes (c)
7 Willis
8 Earl

16 Walker
17 Marler
18 Stuart
19 Ribbans
20 Ludlam
21 Care
22 Smith
23 Marchant

Under the circumstances, that's a sensible looking side. Worried that there's no sign of Curry, and I am not convinced by Earl at 8. We need to see if Tuilagi / Lawrence can gel as a midfield - I'd expect them to swap around a fair bit - and the bench could be interesting if they are given enough time to actually change the game.
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Post by lostinwales Thu 24 Aug 2023, 1:08 pm

I wonder if Arundell is carrying a niggle or if Borthwick is just being obstinate assuming Steward is going to play every last minute England manage to stay in the RWC.

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Post by Poorfour Thu 24 Aug 2023, 1:11 pm

lostinwales wrote:I wonder if Arundell is carrying a niggle or if Borthwick is just being obstinate assuming Steward is going to play every last minute England manage to stay in the RWC.
...apart from when he is carded.
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Post by hugehandoff Thu 24 Aug 2023, 1:12 pm

Amazing how out of favour Sinckler appears to be. Surely he needs some game time unless carrying another injury? Interesting to see Manu and Lawrence together especially against a big hitting Fiji side. I would have loved to have seen Malins at 15 and Steward rested. And great to see how Willis and Earl operate together. But a huge shame that Curry is still not fit.


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Post by carpet baboon Thu 24 Aug 2023, 1:13 pm

Glad to see Borthwick experimenting in the backs.
Same fullback and 2 13s in the centers.
With May on the wing to remind us all he's not as quick as he was

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Post by hugehandoff Thu 24 Aug 2023, 1:16 pm

breaking news....apparently Watson is out of the World Cup. That is a real blow and a real shame for a player who has suffered more than his fair share of injuries.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 24 Aug 2023, 1:17 pm

Great to see our best 2 kick chasing wingers get a game. Think Borthwick is realising his mistake after seeing Arundell not get close to contesting anything. Hopefully we can still see plan a even with the b team. Excited for this one even more than normal.

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Post by carpet baboon Thu 24 Aug 2023, 1:18 pm

hugehandoff wrote:breaking news....apparently Watson is out of the World Cup. That is a real blow and a real shame for a player who has suffered more than his fair share of injuries.

Man that sucks for Watson.

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Post by mountain man Thu 24 Aug 2023, 1:19 pm

hugehandoff wrote:Amazing how out of favour Sinckler appears to be. Surely he needs some game time unless carrying another injury? Interesting to see Manu and Lawrence together especially against a big hitting Fiji side. I would have loved to have seen Malins at 15 and Steward rested. And great to see how Willis and Earl operate together. But a huge shame that Curry is still not fit.


Because Sinckler been pretty poor for some time now.

Steward at 15, again. Yes he'll be there in RWC but for goodness sake give someone else a go. Arundell not even in 23.

Mitchell at 9 is a plus point.

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Post by Poorfour Thu 24 Aug 2023, 1:20 pm

hugehandoff wrote:Amazing how out of favour Sinckler appears to be. Surely he needs some game time unless carrying another injury? Interesting to see Manu and Lawrence together especially against a big hitting Fiji side. I would have loved to have seen Malins at 15 and Steward rested. And great to see how Willis and Earl operate together. But a huge shame that Curry is still not fit.


When it comes to front rows, these days it's a lot about combinations. If Sinckler is going better with Marler and Walker in training (not implausible given they are all graduates of the Adam Jones school of scrummaging) then they may want to keep them as a unit.

If Watson is out, who will be called up? Does May stay with the squad, or will Murley get a chance.
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Post by lostinwales Thu 24 Aug 2023, 1:21 pm

hugehandoff wrote:breaking news....apparently Watson is out of the World Cup. That is a real blow and a real shame for a player who has suffered more than his fair share of injuries.

Apparently the Heil is claiming Daly is out.

horrible news

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Post by hugehandoff Thu 24 Aug 2023, 1:22 pm



If Watson is out, who will be called up? Does May stay with the squad, or will Murley get a chance. [/quote]

According to Telegraph it is May being called up. Should be Murley of course.

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Post by hugehandoff Thu 24 Aug 2023, 1:25 pm

lostinwales wrote:
hugehandoff wrote:breaking news....apparently Watson is out of the World Cup. That is a real blow and a real shame for a player who has suffered more than his fair share of injuries.

Apparently the Heil is claiming Daly is out.

horrible news

Telegraph say Watson out and Daly an injury doubt/concern at this point along with Curry.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 24 Aug 2023, 1:25 pm

What so Watson and daly out of the world cup? Not great news.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 24 Aug 2023, 1:54 pm

Oh. May and Cokanasiga in the 33 according to chris foy.

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Post by mountain man Thu 24 Aug 2023, 1:56 pm

So team for Arg will include Youngs, Cole, Manu, May, Marler.

Back to the future....

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 24 Aug 2023, 2:00 pm

Borthwick has always said that experience will be the way he goes.

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Post by carpet baboon Thu 24 Aug 2023, 2:00 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Oh. May and Cokanasiga in the 33 according to chris foy.

Is that filing anyone with joy?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 24 Aug 2023, 2:01 pm

carpet baboon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Oh. May and Cokanasiga in the 33 according to chris foy.

Is that filing anyone with joy?

May is still a very good kick chaser so yeah. We saw how bad Arundell was at it.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 24 Aug 2023, 2:11 pm

Confirmed from England that Watson is out.

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Post by Poorfour Thu 24 Aug 2023, 2:12 pm

I can understand Borthwick wanting to go with experience - the RWC is not really the time or place to give someone their first cap - but Cokanasiga has not managed to translate his club form to England despite a fair number of tries. I'd have thought that if there were doubts about some of the wings, Fiji would have been a good game to try Murley and see if he can make the step up.

Still, too late now.
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Post by lostinwales Thu 24 Aug 2023, 2:30 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Confirmed from England that Watson is out.

calf injury
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/66608039

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Post by hugehandoff Thu 24 Aug 2023, 2:32 pm

Raiwalui names an exciting squad for the England match
Home > Newsroom > Raiwalui names an exciting squad for the England match
FIJI Water Flying Fijians captain Waisea Nayacalevu and Semi Radradra will for the first time pair up in the midfield as Head Coach Simon Raiwalui named his match day 23-member squad for the match against England.

This is the first time in this campaign the duo will feature together forming one of the lethal midfield pairs in the Flying Fijians backline.

Raiwalui said “We have been rotating players and testing combinations so this is the right time to test these two experienced players this weekend. They are leaders in the team and also role models to our players and I’m confident that they will form the best combination on the day.”

Frank Lomani and Caleb Muntz combination at the halves continues while Selesitino Ravutaumada comes in at right wing and Vinaya Habosi is at left. Ilaisa Droasese starts at fullback.

In the front row, Eroni Mawi continues to impress the coaches with his form and gets another start at Loosehead Prop together with Sam Matavesi at hooker and Luke Tagi at Tighthead Prop.

Isoa Nasilasila and Te Ahiwaru Cirikidaveta form the locks pair while Lekima Tagitagivalu returns on the flanks with Albert Tuisue. Viliame Mata is at number eight.

Raiwalui said they are playing a very quality team in a beautiful stadium and it’s the home of rugby in England so they are looking forward to playing in front of a big crowd and hope for a good performance.

“It’s another big physical battle and I think they will try and use their pack to the limit we have been working on ours and I think they will be very tactical with their kicking. It is going to be a different challenge this weekend” said Raiwalui.

FIJI Water Flying Fijians plays England at 2.15am FJT on Sunday.


FIJI Water Flying Fijians vs England match day 23-member squad is as follows:

Eroni Mawi
Sam Matavesi
Luke Tagi
Isoa Nasilasila
Te Ahiwaru Cirikidveta
Albert Tuisue
Lekima Tagitagivalu
Viliame Mata
Frank Lomani
Caleb Muntz
Vinaya Habosi
Semi Radradra
Waisea Nayacalevu {c}
Selesitino Ravutaumada
Ilaisa Droasese
Reserves

Zuriel Togiatama
Jone Koroiduadua
Samu Tawake
Temo Mayanavanua
Vilive Miramira
Simione Kuruvoli
Teti Tela
Kalaveti Ravouvou

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Post by lostinwales Thu 24 Aug 2023, 2:46 pm

Hmmm

England expect Elliot Daly (knee) and Henry Arundell (back) to make the RWC.

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Post by Mr Bounce Thu 24 Aug 2023, 3:02 pm

This from the BBC:

"Meanwhile, utility back Elliot Daly has a knee injury and is unavailable for this weekend but is expected to be fit for the World Cup and wing Henry Arundell is recovering from a back spasm."

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Post by Geordie Thu 24 Aug 2023, 3:05 pm

Is Daly out of the world cup aswell?

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Post by Geordie Thu 24 Aug 2023, 3:09 pm

Mr Bounce wrote:This from the BBC:

"Meanwhile, utility back Elliot Daly has a knee injury and is unavailable for this weekend but is expected to be fit for the World Cup and wing Henry Arundell is recovering from a back spasm."

Been squatting 220kg again?

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Post by Geordie Thu 24 Aug 2023, 4:07 pm

England to get humped on Sunday...

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Post by doctor_grey Thu 24 Aug 2023, 4:17 pm

So....in training camp one of the main points of emphasis was fitness.  
And somehow the England squad now have a lot of injuries.  

My only question is very basic:  wtf are they doing?


Last edited by doctor_grey on Thu 24 Aug 2023, 4:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by mountain man Thu 24 Aug 2023, 4:20 pm

It was always under Jones tenure that a lot of players picked up injuries in Eng camp, seems he's left his training notes for Borthwick to use.

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England - the build-up and winning the World Cup at a canter Empty Re: England - the build-up and winning the World Cup at a canter

Post by doctor_grey Thu 24 Aug 2023, 4:41 pm

And here is the knock on effect of the injuries: Steward, who is locked in at 15 for the RWC has to play in a meaningless game, with the attendant injury risk to himself, simply because everyone else is hurt. And if he takes a knock?

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England - the build-up and winning the World Cup at a canter Empty Re: England - the build-up and winning the World Cup at a canter

Post by Mr Bounce Thu 24 Aug 2023, 4:44 pm

I presume that Bevan Rodd will be the equivalent of Dorian West in 03. A squad man, but not really required.

Is Borthwick just waiting til he can recall Mako?

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England - the build-up and winning the World Cup at a canter Empty Re: England - the build-up and winning the World Cup at a canter

Post by Mr Bounce Thu 24 Aug 2023, 4:44 pm

doctor_grey wrote:And here is the knock on effect of the injuries:  Steward, who is locked in at 15 for the RWC has to play in a meaningless game, with the attendant injury risk to himself, simply because everyone else is hurt.  And if he takes a knock?  

MALINS IS A 15 MR BORTHWICK!!!

"Freddie shows up well in training so it helps continuity". FFS.

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