England - the build-up and winning the World Cup at a canter

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Smith in the back field worked nicely against Ireland. We could interchange him and Steward on defensive duty but keep both in the backfield to receive kicks. Ford dropping in it one or the other has chased a kick up field.

I'd like to see if given a go as the attack does need an injection of something and the AB tactic isn't a bad one. Ruck speed and security needs a big upgrade though as that is the main element killing our attack.

ENGLAND'S TEAM TO FACE ARGENTINA
15. Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers, 26 caps)
14. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 73 caps)
13. Joe Marchant (Stade Francais, 19 caps)
12. Manu Tuilagi (Sale Sharks, 53 caps)
11. Elliot Daly (Saracens, 59 caps)
10. George Ford – vice-captain (Sale Sharks, 85 caps)
9. Alex Mitchell (Northampton Saints, 6 caps)
1. Ellis Genge – vice-captain (Bristol Bears, 52 caps)
2. Jamie George (Saracens, 79 caps)
3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 102 caps)
4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 70 caps)
5. Ollie Chessum (Leicester Tigers, 11 caps)
6. Courtney Lawes – captain (Northampton Saints, 100 caps)
7. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 45 caps)
8. Ben Earl (Saracens, 18 caps)

Replacements

16. Theo Dan (Saracens, 3 caps)
17. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 82 caps)
18. Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 29 caps)
19. George Martin (Leicester Tigers, 3 caps)
20. Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 21 caps)
21. Danny Care (Harlequins, 90 caps)
22. Marcus Smith (Harlequins, 24 caps)
23. Ollie Lawrence (Bath Rugby, 14 caps)

https://twitter.com/lospumas/status/1699775780895805766?s=20

So 2 starters who weren't in the original RWC squad?

Strong Argentinian team for sure. On form England will struggle, but if you believe and hope for better things then maybe the fitness work/tapering etc will pay off and we will see an improvement. Underwhelmed with Cole starting for sure and a big ask for Curry against an awesome Argie back row.

The way they play is more important than the actual players picked.

Oakdene wrote:So 2 starters who weren't in the original RWC squad?

very much an admission he got some selections wrong. There are others of course...Mercer etc.

1.Gallo 2.Montoya 3.Kodela 4.Alemanno 5.Lavanini 6.Matera 7.Kremer 8.Gonzalez
9.Bertranou 10.Carreras 11.Carreras 12.Chocobares 13.Cinti 14.Bofelli 15.Malia

16.Creevy 17.Sclavi 18.Bello 19.Petti 20.Rubiolo 21.Bruni 22.Bazan 23.Moroni

Oakdene wrote:So 2 starters who weren't in the original RWC squad?

They replaced players who would have also started though suggesting more that he knew what type of players he wanted to make up the squad.

There's still some injury concerns loitering around though.

king_carlos wrote:1.Gallo 2.Montoya 3.Kodela 4.Alemanno 5.Lavanini 6.Matera 7.Kremer 8.Gonzalez
9.Bertranou 10.Carreras 11.Carreras 12.Chocobares 13.Cinti 14.Bofelli 15.Malia

16.Creevy 17.Sclavi 18.Bello 19.Petti 20.Rubiolo 21.Bruni 22.Bazan 23.Moroni

The props don't impress like they used to but that's still a very good squad. Big physical pack, skillful backs. Only 30 caps for the midfield pairing and it's a young midfield as well. Hopefully we can exploit that a bit with Ford/Manu/Marchant.

Thoughts on the Argentina 23:

- 6/2 bench split and no Petti starting. They've gone for their two out and out locks to start with two more mobile locks who can play flanker on the bench. Kremer at blindside adds the genuine lineout option in the back row that they need with Lavanini starting. It's a big pack with more to come on the bench.

- Malia as fly-half cover. He's played there for Toulouse and is a brilliant player but isn't experienced as a standoff.

- In the centres the experienced and very rounded pair of de la Fuente and Moroni missing out to the powerful Chocobares and faster Cinti respectively. Matias Orlando was formerly their option when they wanted more carrying in the midfield. I'd guess that will now be Chocobares. That and the 6/2 bench split suggests they might be expecting a tight game.

- Their outside backs are lightning and very solid. Carreras is a star who I expect will be a fans favourite at this RWC. Malia is a cracking fullback.

- As is widely commented upon, their props are no longer the same standout strength. Kodela is a solid TH but makes Cole look young. Sclavi is a TH that occasionally covers LH but he's on the bench here as Chaparro in particular but also Calles are injured. The other squad LH is Gloucester's Mayco Vivas who's been overlooked. Bello was very much a squad player at Saries. As posted yesterday I find Gallo interesting as he's a shorter, lighter but technically skilled LH that's come through as props get more and more gigantic. He's generally been a bench player for Treviso as well though.

- Montoya. The guys a freak who is brilliant in the carry and over the ball. He's also a very strong scrummaging hooker which will help their props. If there is one relative weakness in his game it's his darts though. They aren't poor, just slightly weaker than the rest of his world class game. England have 3 genuine jumpers, whilst Argentina have two by going with Lavanini ahead of Petti. Maybe something to target.

I'd certainly have Argentina as slight favourites after England's dismal warmups. The Carreras not brothers have added so much spark to an already dangerous backline. The pace in those outside backs is nuts. Their pack is rammed with ball carriers and physicality from both their starters and the bench.

England's fringe defence will have their hands full stopping those carriers get over the gain line. Whilst Marchant in particular will have the unenviable modern 13s job of trying to keep the defence of the outside channels knitted together against lightning outside backs.

What's word on Arundell, is he still injured or just deemed not good enough? Can't say May Daly and Steward inspire try scoring confidence.

hugehandoff wrote:

Oakdene wrote:So 2 starters who weren't in the original RWC squad?

very much an admission he got some selections wrong. There are others of course...Mercer etc.

I think Mitchell is in the squad, and starting, only due to the near universal condemnation of the style and quality of Rugby England has been playing.  Paired with Ford there is at least hope they can inject some energy, quickness, and variation to the England squad.  However, if they are required to slavishly adhere to the overly conservative game plan, then the hope goes away and would be a waste of both of their talents.  And then Mitchell (not a love child) will get benched for most of the rest of the RWC.

mountain man wrote:What's word on Arundell, is he still injured or just deemed not good enough? Can't say May Daly and Steward inspire try scoring confidence.

May has a scoring rate of one in two for England and scored three tries in his last three tries at the end of the last season ( Vs Tigers, Sale and Bristol). He might be past his best a bit but he's one of England's best ever finishers.

Daly was 9 tries in 18 games last season (16 starts). He averages one try in three for England.

Steward is slightly better than one in four for England. Not the biggest try scorer but he does pitch in with a few.

Those wingers are probably the most reliable try scorers we have fit and available.

mountain man wrote:What's word on Arundell, is he still injured or just deemed not good enough? Can't say May Daly and Steward inspire try scoring confidence.

Erm... May scored England's first backs try since the start of the 6 Nations, Daly was probably the most consistent performer in the back division across the warmups, and while Steward doesn't score many tries, he definitely ties up defenders.

Arundell is exciting but he's not the finished article yet. And I'd rather have any of them than Malins.

So no one actually answered question, just told me what I already know about players selected.

mountain man wrote:So no one actually answered question, just told me what I already know about players selected.

The last report I saw on Arundell was that he still had a back spasm, but I suspect May and Daly would have been selected anyway for a game of this importance. I don't think Borthwick has elucidated us on the rationale of his selection policy.

Poorfour wrote:

mountain man wrote:So no one actually answered question, just told me what I already know about players selected.

The last report I saw on Arundell was that he still had a back spasm, but I suspect May and Daly would have been selected anyway for a game of this importance. I don't think Borthwick has elucidated us on the rationale of his selection policy.

Back spasm for how long now?

doctor_grey wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

mountain man wrote:So no one actually answered question, just told me what I already know about players selected.

The last report I saw on Arundell was that he still had a back spasm, but I suspect May and Daly would have been selected anyway for a game of this importance. I don't think Borthwick has elucidated us on the rationale of his selection policy.

Back spasm for how long now?  

Back spasm was midweek before the Fiji game I believe. He also had a hammy strain earlier in the camp. He ruptured a hammy (not sure if the same one) in 2021, 6 months out with surgery. Also had foot surgery this season. So he's had a few knocks this season. Hopefully he can get and stay fit as the kid is a freak.

He hasn't looked at as home on the wing as I hoped given his rounded skills. To be fair though the only wingers to have really looked at home recently have been two experienced Lions in Watson and Daly. Malins doesn't look like a winger, OHC struggled in the Six Nations, May had a mixed game against Fiji. I'm hoping we can see Arundell challenging at fullback after the RWC.

Matteo Carreras hattrick....star player...and our defence is awful

On paper England is actually a very good side...but we haven't seem them play well together st all. Guess we shall see. But I don't expect much.

mountain man wrote:So no one actually answered question, just told me what I already know about players selected.

Arundell plainly not good enough at his kick chase. He got a yellow didn't really compete as well as the other guys; understandable. I got told I'm at risk of redundancy yesterday so it's a good job the rugby starts today and then the big show tomorrow to cheer me up!

Arundell hardly got a pass! That's why if fit he should have been given opportunity against Fiji. Maybe wasn't fit but sticking with Steward who I think is an excellent 15 is limiting England attack
Obviously this comment will go down like a lead balloon but it's true in my opinion.

You're crazy mm. I'm with Itoje and Marler. The pre season is done, now it's good winning rugby. Make sure to watch tonights though to cheer yourself up how far ahead we are!

mountain man wrote:Arundell hardly got a pass! That's why if fit he should have been given opportunity against Fiji. Maybe wasn't fit but sticking with Steward who I think is an excellent 15 is limiting England attack
Obviously this comment will go down like a lead balloon but it's true in my opinion.

He was due a late fitness test before this game which probably means he was injured for the Fiji game.

He didn't get much in the way of opportunity Vs Wales but he didn't do his basics well either. Looking shaky under the high ball and then over chasing and being forced to concede the yellow card to stop a break.

He's young and there's some easier games coming up though so hopefully get some more chances and experience in those.

mountain man wrote:Arundell hardly got a pass! That's why if fit he should have been given opportunity against Fiji. Maybe wasn't fit but sticking with Steward who I think is an excellent 15 is limiting England attack
Obviously this comment will go down like a lead balloon but it's true in my opinion.

I was one of the earlier voices saying that Arundell could be a challenger for Steward's shirt last season (and getting roundly shouted down by most). I would like to see Arundell playing full back before too long, if only to see if the trade off between losing a bit of physicality but gaining a lot of agility is worth it.

Poorfour wrote:

mountain man wrote:Arundell hardly got a pass! That's why if fit he should have been given opportunity against Fiji. Maybe wasn't fit but sticking with Steward who I think is an excellent 15 is limiting England attack
Obviously this comment will go down like a lead balloon but it's true in my opinion.

I was one of the earlier voices saying that Arundell could be a challenger for Steward's shirt last season (and getting roundly shouted down by most). I would like to see Arundell playing full back before too long, if only to see if the trade off between losing a bit of physicality but gaining a lot of agility is worth it.

You'd gain a lot more explosive attack but lose a lot of the stability at the back I think England fans have all started to take for granted.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

mountain man wrote:Arundell hardly got a pass! That's why if fit he should have been given opportunity against Fiji. Maybe wasn't fit but sticking with Steward who I think is an excellent 15 is limiting England attack
Obviously this comment will go down like a lead balloon but it's true in my opinion.

I was one of the earlier voices saying that Arundell could be a challenger for Steward's shirt last season (and getting roundly shouted down by most). I would like to see Arundell playing full back before too long, if only to see if the trade off between losing a bit of physicality but gaining a lot of agility is worth it.

You'd gain a lot more explosive attack but lose a lot of the stability at the back I think England fans have all started to take for granted.

In stability, I guess you mean catching.....because its certainly not defence. Steward offers very little, even less of late bar 2 or 3 catches a game. He's a passenger in this side currently and doesn't deserve his WC spot imo.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mountain man wrote:So no one actually answered question, just told me what I already know about players selected.

Arundell plainly not good enough at his kick chase. He got a yellow didn't really compete as well as the other guys; understandable. I got told I'm at risk of redundancy yesterday so it's a good job the rugby starts today and then the big show tomorrow to cheer me up!

Beer. Not just for breakfast anymore....

PJ is running an in-house prediction competition for the world cup if anyone's interested:

https://www.606v2.com/t71211-2023-rugby-world-cup-tipping-competition

Thanks Galted.

I'd just like to add...

Forget the back spasms, poor defending and awesome attack. It's not that important. What we all do know is that England thoroughly has the right to progress towards the Final. That's for certain!  

It'd be nice to see some of you top quality England posters (or those sharing partial genetic material with English bloodlines) join us on the 2023 RWC tipping competition. I think 2023 really is England's chance to shine on the World Rugby Stage... again!

We really need some more intelligent and enlightened rugby minds to reach new heights when it comes to speculating outcomes for such important matches. As I can see from the never-ending pages of posts... you guys really do know what you're talking about. Always a great read.  

https://www.606v2.com/t71211-2023-rugby-world-cup-tipping-competition

Hope to see some of you on there. Just whack down the first round of matches (copy Galted's post below)... and simply change his silly predictions to something more likely and sensible.

Hope to see you all soon! Love you all!


Galted's Predictions:

Pool A
France v NZ - Fra C
Italy v Namibia - Ita T

Pool B
Ireland v Romania - Ire T
South Africa v Scotland - SA C

Pool C
Australia v Georgia - Aus T
Wales v Fiji - Wal E

Pool D
England v Argentina - D (this ain't football... we don't do draws. Come on England!)
Japan v Chile - Jap T

We really need some more intelligent and enlightened rugby minds to reach new heights

I think you've took a wrong turn Joey.....if only beshocked was still active.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

We really need some more intelligent and enlightened rugby minds to reach new heights

I think you've took a wrong turn Joey.....if only beshocked was still active.

AHH good old beshocked.
Did he ever recover from sarries being found guilty?
And did he ever tell anyone what Owen Farrell had done to him that made him dislike him souch?

After watching the glacial pace of yesterday’s game, I sure am looking forward to watching us show the world how it’s done

BamBam wrote:After watching the glacial pace of yesterday’s game, I sure am looking forward to watching us show the world how it’s done

Well the first half yesterday wasn't much to write home about. However, I'd very much take a 9-8 victory at full time.

We have Mathiew Reynal and Marios junker in combo tonight. Well that's us screwed then!

In terms of the bonus point maybe. Still a win byv14 or more though. Can't wait.

Here we go Jonker gets his first opportunity to screw England

Jonker screws us. No doubt.

Yeah, that's going to be a red. Probably is by the letter of the law, but it's a nonsense because it's just an accidental clash of heads in a tightly contested area.

How can that not be considered a change in height ...

Has to be said I'm really impressed with the discipline the lads have now with Borthwick and Sinfield. Was a real issue with Jones but you barely see pens given away now let alone red or yellows. Another plus point from this coaching team. Starting to worry they may get poached if the rfu really are worried about money.

Ouch.

Who's the foul play review officer - he's on overtime tonight

Heaf wrote:Who's the foul play review officer - he's on overtime tonight

Interesting question as to how quickly or rushed they feel now.

Any chance of any rugby getting played?

That's possibly a red. Still not a fan of the bunker system. Just sort it out there and then, rather than keeping players in the dark.

What utter horse dung.

Can't believe that. Odd that player who wasn't rushed back and with a team with such discipline can be deemed as a red.

First red of the tournament. Surprised it took so long.

Only thing that can save England now is the Argie player also getting red carded.

Well this is b*llocks ... if the Argentina one isn't red too then it's even more crap as that was far more reckless.

I guess my prediction of another red for England was correct then.

Love watching this team. Properly excited to have my England back! God knows what we would have done without a coach who knew the players and was able to hit the ground running.

Heaf wrote:Well this is b*llocks ... if the Argentina one isn't red too then it's even more crap as that was far more reckless.

I guess my prediction of another red for England was correct then.

It's clearly om the cusp. I would probably say it will remain as a yellow for me.