England - the build-up and winning the World Cup at a canter

First topic message reminder :

Smith in the back field worked nicely against Ireland. We could interchange him and Steward on defensive duty but keep both in the backfield to receive kicks. Ford dropping in it one or the other has chased a kick up field.

I'd like to see if given a go as the attack does need an injection of something and the AB tactic isn't a bad one. Ruck speed and security needs a big upgrade though as that is the main element killing our attack.

Mr Bounce wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:And here is the knock on effect of the injuries:  Steward, who is locked in at 15 for the RWC has to play in a meaningless game, with the attendant injury risk to himself, simply because everyone else is hurt.  And if he takes a knock?  

MALINS IS A 15 MR BORTHWICK!!!

"Freddie shows up well in training so it helps continuity". FFS.

To be fair, I don't really rate Malins . But to play Steward, who is locked in at 15 in a meaningless game makes zero sense. Give Malins his run at 15, and we may learn something, maybe even something good. And if Steward gets injured in this meanigless game, then we learn England are amateur hour.

Just thinking ahead to the World Cup… can Farrell play full back?

mikey_dragon wrote:Just thinking ahead to the World Cup… can Farrell play full back?

This is a good question (as long as he doesn't have to tackle???????).  It really is and there is a precedent:  The Springboks played the 100 year old Morné Steyn against the B&I Lions, who came in at full back as a reserve - if my faltering memory has it right.  OK, I think he was 36 or 37.  His legs were shot but he could always kick.  And they won.  

I think playing Marcus Smith there is a quick way to get him killed.

mountain man wrote:It was always under Jones tenure that a lot of players picked up injuries in Eng camp, seems he's left his training notes for Borthwick to use.

I believe this was debunked. From memory an article was released showing that statistics proved that players missed more weeks of rugby per hour of training with England than when training with clubs. It was following the horrendous injury to Sam Jones though that ended his career. He was still technically on Wasps books though so missed something like 2 years of rugby.

Once you removed huge outliers such as that from international and club stats the rate of injury in England camp only came out slightly higher than club training. Which is in line with other nations. That makes sense given international camps generally have more sessions and more strenuous ones because there purpose is to prep players for a big jump in physicality.

It's one of those tropes that stuck though. A Leicester fan that's great with stats on the Tigers unoffy did another, smaller scale comparison after Chessum got injured in training earlier this season. Tigers fans were whining about too many training injuries with England. He listed training and warmup injuries at Tigers to show that there are plenty there too. For instance I was sat in line with Tigers warmup a few years back when Hanro Liebenberg's knee got ruined in a routine drill. It's a contact sport, s**t happens.

Once ideas such as this get stuck they don't tend to go away though. To again use Tigers as an example, you still here fans talk about how the brutal training regime will change new signings. Those contact sessions that were basically brawls with some amateur mauling thrown in ended well over a decade ago though. The reason being that Cockerill, as forwards coach before his DOR promotion, realised that having his forward fighting wasn't actually improving their fortunes on the pitch. That perception is still there though. Despite it being a hangover from players who retired around the time Arundell was born.

On the selection.

I think Mitchell and Ford could work well. Itoje and Chessum seemed to complement each other well during the Six Nations so I'm happy to see them again.

Manu and Lawrence offers plenty of carrying of course but not much balance. The back three is very meh indeed.

With how abysmal the standout Prem 8s in Billy and Dombrandt have looked I actually think Earl or Ludlam could be our best options there this tournament. If Curry doesn't make it for R1 that could be the back row against Argentina. Hardly inspiring but I'd probably prefer that to Billy or Dombrandt trying to catch with their hands on backwards and mincing about the pitch looking about as athletic as that recent divorcee who's only joined a gym to creep on women 2 decades younger than them.

I'd have probably kept getting minutes in Stuart's legs at tighthead.

king_carlos wrote:On the selection.

Manu and Lawrence offers plenty of carrying of course but not much balance. The back three is very meh indeed.

Yea this worries me too. Manu and Lawrence is so uninspring

A few days ago I wnt back and watched a replay of France-Fiji.  Not quite the best France side, but near to it, and Fiji played France fairly close.  Fiji should not be considered a gimmee for England, and to be fair, I don't think anyone here said so and not many people anywhere.  Hopefully no one in England camp.  

I don't understand bringing Mitchell into camp unless he is simply next man up on someone's list.  If he is not allowed to play something somewhat resembling his game why waste everyone's time?  He won't get England moving if he is not allowed to.  And a Mitchell-Smith combinaton which looks like a dynamic halfback pairing on paper will do no better than Youngs-Farrell.  

Anyone who reads the papers can see an article mentioing the unsuccessful tactics almost every day.  Saw this comment in Andy Bull's column in yesterday's Guardian:  
Borthwick is a good man, and thorough, but watching his team hobble through these warm-ups it is hard not to have flashbacks to his days as England’s captain, which were characterised by a very earnest and effortful hangdog ineffectiveness.

Unless we see evidence to the contrary, this unfortunately is England for now.  The only hope is that considering the experience in the squad, they pull off an upset simply based on muscle memory and experience.  Veteran teams which are underperforming can do that from time to time.  But clearly not a strategy.

yappysnap wrote:

king_carlos wrote:On the selection.

Manu and Lawrence offers plenty of carrying of course but not much balance. The back three is very meh indeed.

Yea this worries me too. Manu and Lawrence is so uninspring

Depends how they are used and work with the back three. Whilst it could be stodgy if we get quick enough ball from the rucks to allow Ford to play really flat to the gain line then those two powering onto his short passes will hold the defence and create a lot of space for the back three or they'll run a lot of metres through the Fiji defence.

Hearing conflicting things about Daly. Not officially ruled out but doesn't sound good for him.

Shame for Watson. Is May past it, or still reasonably quick?

doctor_grey wrote:Unless we see evidence to the contrary, this unfortunately is England for now. The only hope is that considering the experience in the squad, they pull off an upset simply based on muscle memory and experience. Veteran teams which are underperforming can do that from time to time. But clearly not a strategy.

This is the nub of it, too many players in squad past best. Those who aren't are just not playing very well or at least not as good as opposition.

Other teams seem to have moved on, England haven't. Poor tactics which are unwavering even if yielding no results such as endless box kicking and spiral bombs.
Stats show team who kicks most wins apparently, that was always something Jones liked to quote. However, only works if done right and in right area of pitch.

England tactics will be kicking and on rare occasion they don't they will try and use Manu to bludgeon over gain line. Great 10 years ago, not so much now.
Other teams defences completely at ease with this and these days some have bigger and stronger 12s. If Manu can't bust his way through he isn't offering a lot else unfortunately nowadays.

Back 3 don't exactly fill me with confidence they will set world alight. Steward great under high ball, strong carrying but that's it. May lost pace and I thought confidence last several games. Malins hasn't yet convinced in Eng shirt on wing. SHould be tried at 15.

Why is Itoje starting? Doesn't need minutes on pitch and he'll be key for RWC. If he picks up a knock then really in trouble.

Earl fine as 8 but better 7. Who else though. Bit less celebrating winning a scrum from a knock on wouldn't go amiss either.

Oakdene wrote:Will be interesting to how the Fijian pack go up against your pack.

I've heard that they scrummaged very well against France. Which isn't good news for that first pool game!

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Oakdene wrote:Will be interesting to how the Fijian pack go up against your pack.

I've heard that they scrummaged very well against France.

A bit off and on at the scrums, but so was France. Fiji certainly looked like they belonged on the pitch with France and played pretty well. To me, they seemd a bit disjointed with some of thier play, but seemed to me they just need a bit more time together in training.

Kyle Sinckler has a chest issue, which is why he wasn't considered for Fiji.

[This is fine meme]

So..

JVP, Watson out

Daly, Curry, Sinckler, Martin, Arundell all carrying knocks

Farrell and Billy banned

Walker and Chessum just back from long term injuries

That about it?

lostinwales wrote:So..

JVP, Watson out

Daly, Curry, Sinckler, Martin, Arundell all carrying knocks

Farrell and Billy banned

Walker and Chessum just back from long term injuries

That about it?

Manu, Itoje, May, Care, Youngs, Cole all nowhere near as good as in past.

Interesting article in the guardian about SA approach to tackling. Lessons for England?


https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/aug/24/weve-trained-it-over-and-over-kolisi-explains-south-africas-tackling-success

TJ wrote:Interesting article in the guardian about SA approach to tackling.  Lessons for England?


https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/aug/24/weve-trained-it-over-and-over-kolisi-explains-south-africas-tackling-success

Hold your horses!  Are you implying tackling needs practice???  I thought they were just like scrums…

mountain man wrote:

lostinwales wrote:So..

JVP, Watson out

Daly, Curry, Sinckler, Martin, Arundell all carrying knocks

Farrell and Billy banned

Walker and Chessum just back from long term injuries

That about it?

Manu, Itoje, May, Care, Youngs, Cole all nowhere near as good as in past.

To be fair Cole is there in case of injury emergency and to be a mentor to the younger tightheads (particularly Stuart). May is not the player he was but he's still quicker than most, solid under the high ball and our second highest try scorer so isn't a bad player to have around. Scrum half is a problem position whilst Itoje and Manu have not looked decent in the Prem.

The number of injuries is a real concern for Borthwick. He's going to be struggling for a match for squad at this rate and considering the other issues stacking up it's the last thing he needs.

Problem with assessing itoje and Manu is that by ordinary human standards they are still actually very good, just really not at the level they have been in the past

formerly known as Sam wrote:

mountain man wrote:

lostinwales wrote:So..

JVP, Watson out

Daly, Curry, Sinckler, Martin, Arundell all carrying knocks

Farrell and Billy banned

Walker and Chessum just back from long term injuries

That about it?

Manu, Itoje, May, Care, Youngs, Cole all nowhere near as good as in past.

To be fair Cole is there in case of injury emergency and to be a mentor to the younger tightheads (particularly Stuart). May is not the player he was but he's still quicker than most, solid under the high ball and our second highest try scorer so isn't a bad player to have around. Scrum half is a problem position whilst Itoje and Manu have not looked decent in the Prem.

The number of injuries is a real concern for Borthwick. He's going to be struggling for a match for squad at this rate and considering the other issues stacking up it's the last thing he needs.

Yes I appreciate all that, I was just joining in with the entirely justifiable downbeat vibe.

mountain man wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

mountain man wrote:

lostinwales wrote:So..

JVP, Watson out

Daly, Curry, Sinckler, Martin, Arundell all carrying knocks

Farrell and Billy banned

Walker and Chessum just back from long term injuries

That about it?

Manu, Itoje, May, Care, Youngs, Cole all nowhere near as good as in past.

To be fair Cole is there in case of injury emergency and to be a mentor to the younger tightheads (particularly Stuart). May is not the player he was but he's still quicker than most, solid under the high ball and our second highest try scorer so isn't a bad player to have around. Scrum half is a problem position whilst Itoje and Manu have not looked decent in the Prem.

The number of injuries is a real concern for Borthwick. He's going to be struggling for a match for squad at this rate and considering the other issues stacking up it's the last thing he needs.

Yes I appreciate all that, I was just joining in with the entirely justifiable downbeat vibe.

Downbeat?  I thought you were fairly optimistic only listing 6 players not at their best.  

As Sam says, Cole has a role which seems very logical the way he explained it.  Youngs is at the end and is too slow for the international game as it is played almost everywhere (except maybe England).  Tuilagi and May can see the finish line but are not quite there yet (unless Tuilagi gets hurt again).  Care still has a bit of juice in the tank, but I doubt he has 80 minutes at International level.  That leaves Itoje, whom I suspect has played too much Rugby and needs quality time away.  He is such a good player and clearly wants to be out there, so coaches disregard his workload.  Unfortunately, coaches are supposed to manage workload and prevent players for overuse.  But EJ didn't.

That leaves Itoje, whom I suspect has played too much Rugby and needs quality time away. He is such a good player and clearly wants to be out there, so coaches disregard his workload. Unfortunately, coaches are supposed to manage workload and prevent players for overuse. But EJ didn't.

Seems plausible. He certainly has not hit the heights we know he can

Wow. Lancaster the favourite to replace Borthwick now. Then O'Gara.

Can't believe they hav even found a set of people not supporting the rfu approach.

We're seeing the huge improvement that this coaching group has brought to the side....just can't believe that people questioning the provable tactics.

Warren Gatland is still in the mix too, and he’s not signed on after the World Cup for Wales yet.

No 7&1/2 wrote:
We're seeing the huge improvement that this coaching group has brought to the side....just can't believe that people questioning the provable tactics.

Still having fun with this?

mikey_dragon wrote:Warren Gatland is still in the mix too, and he’s not signed on after the World Cup for Wales yet.

Wow. Out of the gentle searing browning ahead of a wonderful golden Leicester based summer into a horrible selection Wales biased vision.

TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:
We're seeing the huge improvement that this coaching group has brought to the side....just can't believe that people questioning the provable tactics.

Still having fun with this?

Timing. Nota clue what you mean. But will assurme you mean the development of this England team I end promised so yes!

No 7&1/2 wrote:

TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:
We're seeing the huge improvement that this coaching group has brought to the side....just can't believe that people questioning the provable tactics.

Still having fun with this?

Timing. Nota clue what you mean. But will assurme you mean the development of this England team I end promised so yes!

Good stuff, would’ve hated to think you might’ve backed yourself into a corner you couldn’t get out of, but delighted to hear that’s not the case. You crack on

No corner encountered indeed. Just on this roller-coaster of enjoyment.

Thankfully after the New Zealand v South Africa game we will all have something to discuss - Scott Barrett's two yellow cards, the one on Malcom Marx being referred to the TMO Bunker and New Zealand taking 'one hell of a beating'.  Not feeling quite so confident about my bet earlier today on New Zealand to win the world cup at 5/2!

It just occurred to me if all these England injuries and niggles had happened under Jones, there would probably have been a lot of media speculation about overtraining, and I probably would have thought there was something in the charge.

Rugby Fan wrote:It just occurred to me if all these England injuries and niggles had happened under Jones, there would probably have been a lot of media speculation about overtraining, and I probably would have thought there was something in the charge.

There were concerns about over training under EJ, especially during some of his unconventional sessions.  I don't recall who - still before breakfast - but didn't someone suffer a significant injury during some karate session?  Since Eddie was Borthwick's mentor, and there has apparently been a focus on fitness, seems to me suspicions of overtraining have some merit.

doctor_grey wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:It just occurred to me if all these England injuries and niggles had happened under Jones, there would probably have been a lot of media speculation about overtraining, and I probably would have thought there was something in the charge.

There were concerns about over training under EJ, especially during some of his unconventional sessions.  I don't recall who - still before breakfast - but didn't someone suffer a significant injury during some karate session?  Since Eddie was Borthwick's mentor, and there has apparently been a focus on fitness, seems to me suspicions of overtraining have some merit.

Quite a few seem to have been picked up in game or at least attributed to in game. If the suspicions over a late tapering are accurate that might play a part though you'd have thought Walters knew what he was doing as he got it very right with the Boks four years ago.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:It just occurred to me if all these England injuries and niggles had happened under Jones, there would probably have been a lot of media speculation about overtraining, and I probably would have thought there was something in the charge.

There were concerns about over training under EJ, especially during some of his unconventional sessions.  I don't recall who - still before breakfast - but didn't someone suffer a significant injury during some karate session?  Since Eddie was Borthwick's mentor, and there has apparently been a focus on fitness, seems to me suspicions of overtraining have some merit.

Quite a few seem to have been picked up in game or at least attributed to in game. If the suspicions over a late tapering are accurate that might play a part though you'd have thought Walters knew what he was doing as he got it very right with the Boks four years ago.

If Borthwick was right about Engand's fitness during the Six Nations (i.e. not a match for the gameplan he wants the team to follow) then the coaches might have had to roll the dice on preparation, and hope the squad could take it.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:It just occurred to me if all these England injuries and niggles had happened under Jones, there would probably have been a lot of media speculation about overtraining, and I probably would have thought there was something in the charge.

There were concerns about over training under EJ, especially during some of his unconventional sessions.  I don't recall who - still before breakfast - but didn't someone suffer a significant injury during some karate session?  Since Eddie was Borthwick's mentor, and there has apparently been a focus on fitness, seems to me suspicions of overtraining have some merit.

Quite a few seem to have been picked up in game or at least attributed to in game. If the suspicions over a late tapering are accurate that might play a part though you'd have thought Walters knew what he was doing as he got it very right with the Boks four years ago.

Training is such a difficult thing to get right, especially as new approaches are developed and older ones discarded.  And methods which can be right for one group might not be optimal for an other.  This is the place where real expertise comes in, and going forward is where Walters must make his impact.  

A number of NFL teams have modified their fitness training to include a lot of pool work and other methods to take stress of joints and injuries which are healing.  Other sports are still just dipping their toes into this, but some NFL teams have really embraced it.  It will be very interesting to see injury rates this season and, most especially non-contact injuries.  

Interestingly, due to injury concerns, borne out by injury stats, the NY Giants have changed the grass and artificial turf at their training complex and  at their stadium.  The old artificial turf would hurt my knees to run on and I have felt the improvement this summer.  Most of the players have commented as well, and they are the ones who really need to feel it.

doctor_grey wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:It just occurred to me if all these England injuries and niggles had happened under Jones, there would probably have been a lot of media speculation about overtraining, and I probably would have thought there was something in the charge.

There were concerns about over training under EJ, especially during some of his unconventional sessions.  I don't recall who - still before breakfast - but didn't someone suffer a significant injury during some karate session?  Since Eddie was Borthwick's mentor, and there has apparently been a focus on fitness, seems to me suspicions of overtraining have some merit.

I mentioned this but KC seems to think this "myth" has been debunked but it seems to me more Eng players get injured in training than any other team.
I haven't checked stats on this so no idea if correct as I only properly follow England but it seems suspicious so many Eng players get serious enough injuries to rule them out.

doctor_grey wrote:...That leaves Itoje, whom I suspect has played too much Rugby and needs quality time away.  He is such a good player and clearly wants to be out there, so coaches disregard his workload.  Unfortunately, coaches are supposed to manage workload and prevent players for overuse.  But EJ didn't.

It's interesting, to me at least, that some of the players ditched by EJ (like Care and Cole) had improved club form when the demands of playing non-stop rugby for the best part of 10 years stopped. It's arguable that in addition to Itoje guys like Youngs and Farrell might be playing a bit better if between club, country and Lions the English system was better at ensuring players got the needed down time

Big wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:...That leaves Itoje, whom I suspect has played too much Rugby and needs quality time away.  He is such a good player and clearly wants to be out there, so coaches disregard his workload.  Unfortunately, coaches are supposed to manage workload and prevent players for overuse.  But EJ didn't.

It's interesting, to me at least, that some of the players ditched by EJ (like Care and Cole) had improved club form when the demands of playing non-stop rugby for the best part of 10 years stopped.  It's arguable that in addition to Itoje guys like Youngs and Farrell might be playing a bit better if between club, country and Lions the English system was better at ensuring players got the needed down time

I couldn't agree more and I think it is far past arguable. It's gospel.

doctor_grey wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:It just occurred to me if all these England injuries and niggles had happened under Jones, there would probably have been a lot of media speculation about overtraining, and I probably would have thought there was something in the charge.

There were concerns about over training under EJ, especially during some of his unconventional sessions.  I don't recall who - still before breakfast - but didn't someone suffer a significant injury during some karate session?  Since Eddie was Borthwick's mentor, and there has apparently been a focus on fitness, seems to me suspicions of overtraining have some merit.

Sam Jones judo session with Itoje.

What's the betting on another red then? I'm going for an old fashioned taking someone out in the air and them landing on their head. 23rd min.

I'll take 29th minute ...

Don't think I've ever seen Twickers so empty for an England game.

Looks like we're going to be ignoring crooked line-outs today then ...

Oh - only when England do it then ...

Tuilagi and Lawrence look like they'll be making metres with every run.

A....back....has .....scored. what.

England back scores a try - that must be worth an extra bank holiday surely

A winger went on the outside?

Now I have to go out for 15 mins - don't mess it up now ....

Ah reprieve for half an hour - can hold off for half time