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England - the build-up and winning the World Cup at a canter

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 24 Aug 2023, 6:58 am

First topic message reminder :

Smith in the back field worked nicely against Ireland. We could interchange him and Steward on defensive duty but keep both in the backfield to receive kicks. Ford dropping in it one or the other has chased a kick up field.

I'd like to see if given a go as the attack does need an injection of something and the AB tactic isn't a bad one. Ruck speed and security needs a big upgrade though as that is the main element killing our attack.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 26 Aug 2023, 3:28 pm

Looks wet.

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Post by Heaf Sat 26 Aug 2023, 3:29 pm

Tipping it down now - this isn't the light showers forecast

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Post by king_carlos Sat 26 Aug 2023, 3:30 pm

mountain man wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:It just occurred to me if all these England injuries and niggles had happened under Jones, there would probably have been a lot of media speculation about overtraining, and I probably would have thought there was something in the charge.
There were concerns about over training under EJ, especially during some of his unconventional sessions.  I don't recall who - still before breakfast - but didn't someone suffer a significant injury during some karate session?  Since Eddie was Borthwick's mentor, and there has apparently been a focus on fitness, seems to me suspicions of overtraining have some merit.

I mentioned this but KC seems to think this "myth" has been debunked but it seems to me more Eng players get injured in training than any other team.
I haven't checked stats on this so no idea if correct as I only properly follow England but it seems suspicious so many Eng players get serious enough injuries to rule them out.
I know that the often quoted stats from EJs time were debunked. It created that presumption that all injuries were due to ridiculous training regimes though.

Just looking at the current squad my immediate question would be if we know that these are training injuries though? Sinckler, Daly and Watson could well have picked up injuries against Ireland for instance. There seems a presumption that unless a player is stretchered off they aren't injured in the game. Players get knocks midgame, play on, then realise the extent the week after all the time. Hell, a player at my old club once played a half of rugby thinking he was winded after taking a big hit, turned out he'd cracked a rib which from my experience was an excruciating injury but he somehow played on!

Curry, Walker and Lawrence were training injuries early in the camps I know. Curry will be the only one not to return after todays final warmup.

Chessum got that nasty one in the Six Nations. As soon as that happened many Tigers fans seemed to presume it must have been some sort of ridiculous drill only England would consider. As the Inside Line video looking at Chessum's recovery showed it was just a run of the mill training game where he got tackled from behind and fell awkwardly.

I just feel there's a lot of perception that goes into things like that. As England are so dire right now folk are looking for things to criticise. Which is why RugbyFans post re how it would be commented on even more with Eddie at the helm was interesting to me.

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Post by lostinwales Sat 26 Aug 2023, 3:32 pm

So f'ing lucky to have Malins the defensive colossus marking his wing. Fiji will have no chance of making ground on that right wing.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 26 Aug 2023, 3:33 pm

Wow it is tipping it down! I only just got the stream up as finished work at 3pm. So I missed the penalty and May try.

Muntz is a really highly rated fly-half. I'm interested to see that partnership with Lomani inside Radrada and the underrated Nayaclevu.

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Post by mountain man Sat 26 Aug 2023, 3:34 pm

Bright start by Eng I reckon. Shame it's now piddling down.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 26 Aug 2023, 3:35 pm

Theo Dan's thighs must make up about 80% of his bodyweight  Laugh Laugh The bloke is square.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 26 Aug 2023, 3:38 pm

Hmm. Looked to me like the square hit Lomani around the neck as he went to ground there.

The conditions are so bad that even Fiji are joining England's kicking tactics. Lomani is doing a better job of landing them in the space between where two back field players are covering though. As opposed to Youngs and Care's fun tactic of shutting their eyes and hoping for the best.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 26 Aug 2023, 3:40 pm

Tuilagi hurt his shoulder in that last tackle I think.

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Post by Duty281 Sat 26 Aug 2023, 3:45 pm

After a good opening ten minutes, this has been utterly dreadful.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 26 Aug 2023, 3:46 pm

Chessum, Itoje and Lawes should be England's best defensive lineout by a distance. Three strong counter jumpers and maulers. It's one of the small areas that's shown improvement under Borthwick. Admittedly lineout defence isn't a sexy thing but it is important. The sort of thing that can be prominent in games you lose but rarely mentioned in ones you win.

This Fiji side has so many fun players but generally improved set-piece with the likes of Mawi and Matavesi. I've said it a lot of times but I just wish Api was available. Alongside the really impressive Mayanavanua they'd have a strong lock pairing there. Not to mention Peceli Yato to rotate with Botia at 7. Absentees like that for the RWC really hurt the game.

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Post by Heaf Sat 26 Aug 2023, 3:47 pm

Duty281 wrote:After a good opening ten minutes, this has been utterly dreadful.

Pretty much the same as the previous matches - reasonable start followed by dross ... downpour not helping though

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 26 Aug 2023, 3:49 pm

And we're losing.

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Post by Heaf Sat 26 Aug 2023, 3:49 pm

Check the last pass

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 26 Aug 2023, 3:50 pm

Probably is forward put of the hands.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 26 Aug 2023, 3:50 pm

God what a butcher that was.

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Post by Heaf Sat 26 Aug 2023, 3:51 pm

Let off for England

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Post by lostinwales Sat 26 Aug 2023, 3:56 pm

lostinwales wrote:So f'ing lucky to have Malins the defensive colossus marking his wing. Fiji will have no chance of making ground on that right wing.

I mean - look what he did to Radradra there. Might of slowed him by a whole 0.1s

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Post by king_carlos Sat 26 Aug 2023, 3:57 pm

Radrada is such a freak in contact.

Mawi is a very good and much improved player but that is a poor tackle.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 26 Aug 2023, 3:58 pm

Never get these rolling mauls. So easy to see where players flood in ahead of the ball carrier. Barely ever called.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 26 Aug 2023, 4:00 pm

Lol. England player asking if you can dove in on a player on the floor and the ref saying yes.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 26 Aug 2023, 4:03 pm

I'd argue you scrum there in the first place. Force them to bring a LH on and sub someone off. Easy to say now though. When you've just won multiple pens and seen a yellow at the previous maul it's reasonable to go again. Simply need better execution.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 26 Aug 2023, 4:03 pm

Thought if there was lightening players had to go off?

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 26 Aug 2023, 4:03 pm

Well, the first half warms the cockles of true English hearts.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 26 Aug 2023, 4:04 pm

doctor_grey wrote:Well, the first half warms the cockles of true English hearts.

Yup. 5 points up. Bet there are a few people looking at the empty seats now wishing they were there.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 26 Aug 2023, 4:12 pm

Well, as ugly as I'd expect from England currently in those conditions.

May not looking out of place is a positive given Watson and Daly's injuries. He's reportedly been clocking similar speeds in training which suggest the pace is there. Yet he's been anonymous to poor for Gloucester even in the current Prem's standards.

Malins is once again not looking like a winger though.

I think the Itoje, Chessum and Lawes combo could be good but others will disagree I'm sure. It feels like there's a good balance of skills across 4/5/6 between them.

Genge has been a bit busier as well.

I'm hoping Ludlam gets a decent number of minutes at 8. He was our best performer by a distance in the first warmup but hasn't featured since.

Lawrence and Marchant together in centres for a while too I hope.

Seeing Chessum and Ribbans in the second row together would be good to see.

At Tigers we would often see a second playmaker brought into the backs in the second half under Borthwick. Burns, Hegarty or latterly Atkinson at 15. Gopperth at 12. Borth seemed to like that extra playmaker in the later stages of game. Hence Smith at 15 felt interesting to me from a tactical perspective last week even if the performance as a whole was dross. I'd be happy to see Ford and Smith on at the same time again later in this game.

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Post by lostinwales Sat 26 Aug 2023, 4:14 pm

Malins makes a terrific speed bump though

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Post by Mr Bounce Sat 26 Aug 2023, 4:14 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:Well, the first half warms the cockles of true English hearts.

Yup. 5 points up. Bet there are a few people looking at the empty seats now wishing they were there.

I am here. Never seen it so empty. That's a combination of rail strikes and nobody wanting to watch rubbish tactics. The rain isn't helping, but the early quicker ball from Mitchell clearly made a difference...

Secretly dreading a Fiji backlash...

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Post by mountain man Sat 26 Aug 2023, 4:15 pm

Decent start spoilt by weather but I'd say progress from what was a very low point in previous matches
Need to score a few more though

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 26 Aug 2023, 4:19 pm

May had a major league fend for his try. To me, that is at least as important as his pace.

Malins heart heart heart showed his tackling ability is up there with the best. Great selection by Borthwick. He might be the difference between winning and losing.....

Genge and Lawes quite good - they stand out be comparison.

Oh stink - the second half has started and I need to self medicate again and again.

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Post by Heaf Sat 26 Aug 2023, 4:20 pm

How many times have we turned the ball over and given it straight back?

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Post by king_carlos Sat 26 Aug 2023, 4:20 pm

Jone Koroiduadua's mullet/mohawk crossbreed is a thing of utter beauty.

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Post by Rugby Fan Sat 26 Aug 2023, 4:21 pm

Steward's critics are getting some more ammunition today.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 26 Aug 2023, 4:22 pm

Ah. Now we're going behind.

Can't believe Fiji are even managing to live with us tbh.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 26 Aug 2023, 4:23 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:Steward's critics are getting some more ammunition today.
Yean, Steward and May botch easy tackles. At least be a speed bump. This is Ronan O'Gara level (the player, not the coach)....

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Post by king_carlos Sat 26 Aug 2023, 4:25 pm

Jonny May's critics with that too. Truly abysmal. Made even worse by Lawrence having the inside covered so he should just be pushing wide but because he turned his back on the inside defence too quickly he didn't know that.

England's back three weren't looking in good shape even before Watson and Daly's injuries.

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Post by Heaf Sat 26 Aug 2023, 4:25 pm

If we follow the script England will spend the 2nd half getting pinged off the pitch

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Post by sensisball Sat 26 Aug 2023, 4:26 pm

Brilliant defence from Johnny May, not.

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Post by Heaf Sat 26 Aug 2023, 4:29 pm

This is the problem - England can get possession and territory but can't score whereas Fiji look like they can score from nothing ...

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Post by mountain man Sat 26 Aug 2023, 4:30 pm

FFS! Ford kicks it away. Stupid.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 26 Aug 2023, 4:30 pm

I watched Saints pre-season friendly against Bedford and there was more skill there....

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 26 Aug 2023, 4:30 pm

Red incoming.

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Post by Yoda Sat 26 Aug 2023, 4:32 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:Steward's critics are getting some more ammunition today.

Yep he's been poor for a while.

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Post by Heaf Sat 26 Aug 2023, 4:32 pm

Here we go ...

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Post by Rugby Fan Sat 26 Aug 2023, 4:32 pm

You think the front row is our main problem, and our back three says "hold our beers".


Last edited by Rugby Fan on Sat 26 Aug 2023, 4:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 26 Aug 2023, 4:32 pm

Lol. Head on head when marler is stood up. Who is the tmo who is asleep?

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Post by Heaf Sat 26 Aug 2023, 4:34 pm

Obviously not Junker - but Fiji don't need any help

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Post by Duty281 Sat 26 Aug 2023, 4:34 pm

England's defence around the ruck has been poor all game. Fiji have finally taken advantage.

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Post by Heaf Sat 26 Aug 2023, 4:34 pm

That was shocking ruck defence

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 26 Aug 2023, 4:34 pm

Can't believe this. We've had the better territory. Percentages wise we can't keep on being this unlucky.

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