2nd RWC 2023 semi-final England v South Africa

First topic message reminder :

Having just watched that awesome match with France and seeing the SA players, with family, parade around the ground I can't help feeling that our main hope of not being thrashed lies in their complacency. They will go in as massive favourites and rightly so. England will be fighting for their very lives to avoid humiliation and this often brings out the best in teams. I don't think it will be enough, but it might help keep the score to below 45.

Realistically do we have a prayer?

Geordie wrote:I'm still trying to work out the Le roux 'mark' call being given aswell...

Yeah ridiculous. It’s gone from calling it in the air to calling it after a few steps and realising the run isn’t on.

Geordie wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:As I said months ago.
Steward should have been moved to 12 and Ludlam should have always been in the 23.

Why on earth would you move Steward to 12 when he's so dominant in the air, complete waste of his strengths.

Agreed..once we start working properly on our attack Steward is a huge asset there.

For all the talk about Steward having limitations in attack and his main strength being in the air, last night no one beat more defenders than him (4, de Allende and Earl both beat 3 as next best) and no one ran for more metres than he did.

Steward has a lot to offer outside of just defusing the opposition kicking game.

England have only themselves to blame. Absolutely toothless in attack.

The first half reminded me of beached whales lying all over the place. England were permanently offside that half

Geordie wrote:Well I hope the Kiwis smash them all over

Oh dear Boks will be absolutely devastated on hearing this. Enjoy the bronze play-off

protea438 wrote:England have only themselves to blame. Absolutely toothless in attack.

The first half reminded me of beached whales lying all over the place. England were permanently offside that half

Geordie wrote:Well I hope the Kiwis smash them all over

Oh dear Boks will be absolutely devastated on hearing this. Enjoy the bronze play-off

Fortunately we know we have no attack yet...but even with that you only just got past us...

Rebuilding takes time..and we've just started. See you next Autumn....

Is it 5 months that england have been together now?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Is it 5 months that england have been together now?

For RWC? Yes near enough, they got together in June.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Geordie wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:As I said months ago.
Steward should have been moved to 12 and Ludlam should have always been in the 23.

Why on earth would you move Steward to 12 when he's so dominant in the air, complete waste of his strengths.

Agreed..once we start working properly on our attack Steward is a huge asset there.

For all the talk about Steward having limitations in attack and his main strength being in the air, last night no one beat more defenders than him (4, de Allende and Earl both beat 3 as next best) and no one ran for more metres than he did.

Steward has a lot to offer outside of just defusing the opposition kicking game.

TBF it says a lot about that game that these are the stats...

Any team's fullback should always have the highest meters run and defenders beaten as they have the most space out of any players all game, and are generally running back kicks against a fractured defense.

Beauden Barret made 20m more than Steward but played 25 minutes less

Stats need viewed in context, and in this instance the context is that England's offered very little in attack. Those stats ain't anything to write home about. Not saying he can't be an attacking 15, but he really wasn't in that game

No 7&1/2 wrote:Is it 5 months that england have been together now?

And gradually been lots of improvements. Many more to come...future looks rosey

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Is it 5 months that england have been together now?

And gradually been lots of improvements. Many more to come...future looks rosey

Not seen many so far.53% win ratio. But there's always hope. Reckon we'll see a first debut under Borthwick vs Italy?

Something like this may suit the tactics?
Genge George Cole
Itoje Chessum
Lawes curry
Willis
vP Farrell
Roebuck tuilagi Lawrence o Flaherty steward

Vunipola lcd sinckler Martin Earl warr Ford daly.


Watson probably comes straight back in thinking about it.

Billy won't be there. Not sure if manu will either and I suspect Cole will retire....

There'll be changes...

RDW wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Geordie wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:As I said months ago.
Steward should have been moved to 12 and Ludlam should have always been in the 23.

Why on earth would you move Steward to 12 when he's so dominant in the air, complete waste of his strengths.

Agreed..once we start working properly on our attack Steward is a huge asset there.

For all the talk about Steward having limitations in attack and his main strength being in the air, last night no one beat more defenders than him (4, de Allende and Earl both beat 3 as next best) and no one ran for more metres than he did.

Steward has a lot to offer outside of just defusing the opposition kicking game.

TBF it says a lot about that game that these are the stats...

Any team's fullback should always have the highest meters run and defenders beaten as they have the most space out of any players all game, and are generally running back kicks against a fractured defense.

Beauden Barret made 20m more than Steward but played 25 minutes less

Stats need viewed in context, and in this instance the context is that England's offered very little in attack. Those stats ain't anything to write home about. Not saying he can't be an attacking 15, but he really wasn't in that game

Yeah the context was provided within the game. Comparing games is very difficult particularly when you are comparing one close contest to another where it was decidedly one sided.

The Bok defence doesn't ordinarily allow much kick return, it's somewhat famous for it. For more relatable context, Tomas Ramos who is very much an attacking fullback ran only two metres more for France last weekend and only beat the one defender to Steward's four. Ramos had one additional carry as well. If you look further back it's more metres made Vs SA than Kinghorn made for Scotland and more defenders beaten. Albeit Kinghorn had less carries. For a better result from a fullback against SA you'd have to look at Keenan who ran for six more metres and beat one more defender.

The England attack being somewhat average should only highlight my point about Steward being more than just a solid pair of hands at the back further.

Couple of things.
To be clear I think steward is an excellent fullback, but I also think he could do a Jordie Barrett and make an excellent 12, something England is in desperate need of, and I generally meant within this squad for this tournament it would have been worth giving it a go. But I'm not borthwick and he clearly doesn't agree with me.

Farrell. Anyone else get a feeling from his post match Interview (which I thought was very good by the way) that he may be thinking of hanging up his international boots?

Farrell seemed on the verge of tears, to me. Very emotional, voice nearly cracking. Maybe just due to the close and late loss and the intensity of the game. But perhaps an inkling that he was thinking of retiring now?

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:Farrell seemed on the verge of tears, to me. Very emotional, voice nearly cracking. Maybe just due to the close and late loss and the intensity of the game. But perhaps an inkling that he was thinking of retiring now?

It was his up and under that lead to the winning penalty, he played very well though.

carpet baboon wrote:Couple of things.
To be clear I think steward is an excellent fullback, but I also think he could do a Jordie Barrett and make an excellent 12, something England is in desperate need of, and I generally meant within this squad for this tournament it would have been worth giving it a go. But I'm not borthwick and he clearly doesn't agree with me.

England do need a new 12 but there are some promising young options within the Prem. Seb Atkinson at Glaws has looked to the manor born since Wuss folded and Glaws picked him up. At 21 he's got 30 senior games under his belt and he'll increase that significantly this season with Glaws.

Dan Kelly at 22 has more than 60 games for Tigers and is already capped by England. He'll be donning the 12 shirt at Steward's club.

Either or both could come into the squad for the 6N.

I think where we really need to progress is at tighthead and loosehead. We need good scrummagers, not just loose play specialists.

Cole and Marler will be gone. Who fills their oversized boots? TH is more of a concern with both Sinckler and Stuart being someway off their best.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67185493

Disappointing to read about, if true. No room for racism in the game.

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:Farrell seemed on the verge of tears, to me. Very emotional, voice nearly cracking. Maybe just due to the close and late loss and the intensity of the game. But perhaps an inkling that he was thinking of retiring now?

Almost certainly his last shot at a World Cup, so can understand him being emotional.

Duty281 wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67185493

Disappointing to read about, if true. No room for racism in the game.

Yeah, and considering Bongi’s team mates are also white it is quite odd. Hope they make an official complaint before the deadline.

Also quite surprising to read the words "white c***" in the guardian

Mr Bounce wrote:I think where we really need to progress is at tighthead and loosehead. We need good scrummagers, not just loose play specialists.

Cole and Marler will be gone. Who fills their oversized boots? TH is more of a concern with both Sinckler and Stuart being someway off their best.

Sinckler and Stuart may be off their best but they are also both young enough to make the next world cup. Heyes at Tigers has been steadily improving over a period of time and is still under 25. Painter looked good last weekend and there's a possibility a move away from Saints may have rejuvenated him. Painter is a seriously big unit, decent at the scrum and still only 25.

Loosehead is possibly more of a concern. Genge is the obvious stand out there but Rodd is the only other who's really been capped. Marler is young enough to maybe do another season or so if he wants to with England. Might help bring the next generation though.

Duty281 wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67185493

Disappointing to read about, if true. No room for racism in the game.

The Afrikaans word for "side" is "kant" and it is pronounced in exactly the same way as c**t. Given that England play in white, Bongi could quite easily have been referring to the 'white side'. It is also quite probable that he was code switching ( mixing languages together - it's common for South African polyglots to do that) so he could well have said 'white kant'.

Furthermore, c**t would be quite a rare swear word to use in SA...I'd be surprised if that was Bongi's go to word if he was trying to insult Curry.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Is it 5 months that england have been together now?

And gradually been lots of improvements. Many more to come...future looks rosey

Not seen many so far.53% win ratio. But there's always hope. Reckon we'll see a first debut under Borthwick vs Italy?

Something like this may suit the tactics?
Genge George Cole
Itoje Chessum
Lawes curry
Willis
vP Farrell
Roebuck tuilagi Lawrence o Flaherty steward

Vunipola lcd sinckler Martin Earl warr Ford daly.


Watson probably comes straight back in thinking about it.

I thought Roebuck is going to Scotland?

Mr Fishpaste wrote:

Duty281 wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67185493

Disappointing to read about, if true. No room for racism in the game.

The Afrikaans word for "side" is "kant" and it is pronounced in exactly the same way as c**t. Given that England play in white, Bongi could quite easily have been referring to the 'white side'. It is also quite probable that he was code switching ( mixing languages together - it's common for South African polyglots to do that) so he could well have said 'white kant'.

Furthermore, c**t would be quite a rare swear word to use in SA...I'd be surprised if that was Bongi's go to word if he was trying to insult Curry.

Also who cares?

Mr Fishpaste wrote:

Duty281 wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67185493

Disappointing to read about, if true. No room for racism in the game.

The Afrikaans word for "side" is "kant" and it is pronounced in exactly the same way as c**t. Given that England play in white, Bongi could quite easily have been referring to the 'white side'. It is also quite probable that he was code switching ( mixing languages together - it's common for South African polyglots to do that) so he could well have said 'white kant'.

Furthermore, c**t would be quite a rare swear word to use in SA...I'd be surprised if that was Bongi's go to word if he was trying to insult Curry.

Well SA are doing their own investigation on it.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Mr Fishpaste wrote:

Duty281 wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67185493

Disappointing to read about, if true. No room for racism in the game.

The Afrikaans word for "side" is "kant" and it is pronounced in exactly the same way as c**t. Given that England play in white, Bongi could quite easily have been referring to the 'white side'. It is also quite probable that he was code switching ( mixing languages together - it's common for South African polyglots to do that) so he could well have said 'white kant'.

Furthermore, c**t would be quite a rare swear word to use in SA...I'd be surprised if that was Bongi's go to word if he was trying to insult Curry.

Also who cares?

People who don't like racism on rugby pitches?

lostinwales wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Is it 5 months that england have been together now?

And gradually been lots of improvements. Many more to come...future looks rosey

Not seen many so far.53% win ratio. But there's always hope. Reckon we'll see a first debut under Borthwick vs Italy?

Something like this may suit the tactics?
Genge George Cole
Itoje Chessum
Lawes curry
Willis
vP Farrell
Roebuck tuilagi Lawrence o Flaherty steward

Vunipola lcd sinckler Martin Earl warr Ford daly.


Watson probably comes straight back in thinking about it.

I thought Roebuck is going to Scotland?

I know they were after him but thought england were too but I'd not heard he'd decided on Scotland. I've just picked out 2 of the best of not the best kick chasers around.

That game was a surreal watch. Rugby boiled down to kick-fumble-scrum-lineout-penalty. Pretty dire tbf. All the great NH hopes choked this RWC and weren’t up to it when it mattered.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Mr Fishpaste wrote:

Duty281 wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67185493

Disappointing to read about, if true. No room for racism in the game.

The Afrikaans word for "side" is "kant" and it is pronounced in exactly the same way as c**t. Given that England play in white, Bongi could quite easily have been referring to the 'white side'. It is also quite probable that he was code switching ( mixing languages together - it's common for South African polyglots to do that) so he could well have said 'white kant'.

Furthermore, c**t would be quite a rare swear word to use in SA...I'd be surprised if that was Bongi's go to word if he was trying to insult Curry.

Also who cares?

People who don't like racism on rugby pitches?

If you think a guy whose coaches and most of his team mates are white, is racist, then fair play to you. .

ebop wrote:That game was a surreal watch. Rugby boiled down to kick-fumble-scrum-lineout-penalty. Pretty dire tbf. All the great NH hopes choked this RWC and weren’t up to it when it mattered.

This is sadly the sort of ungracious attitude I have come to expect from some Kiwi fans. Pretty sad really. The ABs win by the tiniest margin v Ireland and some fans default to arrogant dim wits immediately after. If the ABs had as tough a run of games as SA or Ireland Id be confident they would be at home now too.

ebop wrote:That game was a surreal watch. Rugby boiled down to kick-fumble-scrum-lineout-penalty. Pretty dire tbf. All the great NH hopes choked this RWC and weren’t up to it when it mattered.

I don't know of a single NH team that choked at this RWC.

Are you another one who incorrectly thinks that losing = choking?

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Mr Fishpaste wrote:

Duty281 wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67185493

Disappointing to read about, if true. No room for racism in the game.

The Afrikaans word for "side" is "kant" and it is pronounced in exactly the same way as c**t. Given that England play in white, Bongi could quite easily have been referring to the 'white side'. It is also quite probable that he was code switching ( mixing languages together - it's common for South African polyglots to do that) so he could well have said 'white kant'.

Furthermore, c**t would be quite a rare swear word to use in SA...I'd be surprised if that was Bongi's go to word if he was trying to insult Curry.

Also who cares?

People who don't like racism on rugby pitches?

If you think a guy whose coaches and most of his team mates are white, is racist, then fair play to you. .

The old 'I have black friends' argument but in reverse. No place for any such language being used.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

lostinwales wrote:I thought Roebuck is going to Scotland?

I know they were after him but thought england were too but I'd not heard he'd decided on Scotland. I've just picked out 2 of the best of not the best kick chasers around.

He's been in England squads but not Scotland ones. Reportedly he was contacted by Scotland and England coaches over the summer when training squads were being selected then didn't feature in either squads. Some rumours that Townsend wanted him in the training squad for Scotland but he held out for England. Apparently Borthwick rates him though.

I would be happy with them looking at Roebuck and Freeman as bigger wings on one side, then Murley and Arundell as rapid ones.

Watson getting/staying fit is the other factor. The good thing about Watson is that when he's got fit recently he tends to find form almost immediately. Similar to Lawes. Both seem to have developed that ability with experience. They don't take lots of minutes to reach their best. So if fit I'd certainly have Watson in the squad. He's our best winger.

I wouldn't be surprised if Daly is looked at as a 13 option. He's probably the nearest like for like to replace the role that Marchant has done well in.

Collapse2005 wrote:

ebop wrote:That game was a surreal watch. Rugby boiled down to kick-fumble-scrum-lineout-penalty. Pretty dire tbf. All the great NH hopes choked this RWC and weren’t up to it when it mattered.

This is sadly the sort of ungracious attitude I have come to expect from some Kiwi fans. Pretty sad really. The ABs win by the tiniest margin v Ireland and some fans default to arrogant dim wits immediately after. If the ABs had as tough a run of games as SA or Ireland Id be confident they would be at home now too.

ABs fans, pundits and players are struggling with the fact their "aura" is completely gone and teams are now going into games expecting to beat them. That's why you get ridiculous comments like above and players acting out like Ioane. It's gonna take time for them to accept this new reality, that they are now just another rugby team.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

ebop wrote:That game was a surreal watch. Rugby boiled down to kick-fumble-scrum-lineout-penalty. Pretty dire tbf. All the great NH hopes choked this RWC and weren’t up to it when it mattered.

This is sadly the sort of ungracious attitude I have come to expect from some Kiwi fans. Pretty sad really. The ABs win by the tiniest margin v Ireland and some fans default to arrogant dim wits immediately after. If the ABs had as tough a run of games as SA or Ireland Id be confident they would be at home now too.

ABs fans, pundits and players are struggling with the fact their "aura" is completely gone and teams are now going into games expecting to beat them. That's why you get ridiculous comments like above and players acting out like Ioane. It's gonna take time for them to accept this new reality, that they are now just another rugby team.

So true, I honestly hadnt realised how much the Irish side was well and truely camped in Kiwi heads until I saw the reaction of some of the AB players, pundits and in particular Kiwi fans online after their win. The ABs famous "no aholes" policy is obviously for PR purposes only. I think some Kiwis were actually a bit hurt that Ireland were confident going into that game.

Soul Requiem wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Mr Fishpaste wrote:

Duty281 wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67185493

Disappointing to read about, if true. No room for racism in the game.

The Afrikaans word for "side" is "kant" and it is pronounced in exactly the same way as c**t. Given that England play in white, Bongi could quite easily have been referring to the 'white side'. It is also quite probable that he was code switching ( mixing languages together - it's common for South African polyglots to do that) so he could well have said 'white kant'.

Furthermore, c**t would be quite a rare swear word to use in SA...I'd be surprised if that was Bongi's go to word if he was trying to insult Curry.

Also who cares?

People who don't like racism on rugby pitches?

If you think a guy whose coaches and most of his team mates are white, is racist, then fair play to you. .

The old 'I have black friends' argument but in reverse. No place for any such language being used.

And of course it can't be racist if it is something said about white English people

Sorry I do appreciate this whole issue of words is in serious danger of hijacking this thread, and people can support who they like, especially ABE if they chose, but sometimes the language used can be problematic

Collapse2005 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

ebop wrote:That game was a surreal watch. Rugby boiled down to kick-fumble-scrum-lineout-penalty. Pretty dire tbf. All the great NH hopes choked this RWC and weren’t up to it when it mattered.

This is sadly the sort of ungracious attitude I have come to expect from some Kiwi fans. Pretty sad really. The ABs win by the tiniest margin v Ireland and some fans default to arrogant dim wits immediately after. If the ABs had as tough a run of games as SA or Ireland Id be confident they would be at home now too.

ABs fans, pundits and players are struggling with the fact their "aura" is completely gone and teams are now going into games expecting to beat them. That's why you get ridiculous comments like above and players acting out like Ioane. It's gonna take time for them to accept this new reality, that they are now just another rugby team.

So true, I honestly hadnt realised how much the Irish side was well and truely camped in Kiwi heads until I saw the reaction of some of the AB players, pundits and in particular Kiwi fans online after their win. The ABs famous "no aholes" policy is obviously for PR purposes only. I think some Kiwis were actually a bit hurt that Ireland were confident going into that game.

The fact Ireland were favourites going into that would've killed them all right. NZ winning isn't the worst thing from rugby's pov, given how support for the game is collapsing over there.

Just watching the Harlequins Exeter game and it strikes me how even the latter are playing a much more open and attacking game this season. Probably not ideal for Borthwick when he's selecting anyone new.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

ebop wrote:That game was a surreal watch. Rugby boiled down to kick-fumble-scrum-lineout-penalty. Pretty dire tbf. All the great NH hopes choked this RWC and weren’t up to it when it mattered.

This is sadly the sort of ungracious attitude I have come to expect from some Kiwi fans. Pretty sad really. The ABs win by the tiniest margin v Ireland and some fans default to arrogant dim wits immediately after. If the ABs had as tough a run of games as SA or Ireland Id be confident they would be at home now too.

ABs fans, pundits and players are struggling with the fact their "aura" is completely gone and teams are now going into games expecting to beat them. That's why you get ridiculous comments like above and players acting out like Ioane. It's gonna take time for them to accept this new reality, that they are now just another rugby team.

So true, I honestly hadnt realised how much the Irish side was well and truely camped in Kiwi heads until I saw the reaction of some of the AB players, pundits and in particular Kiwi fans online after their win. The ABs famous "no aholes" policy is obviously for PR purposes only. I think some Kiwis were actually a bit hurt that Ireland were confident going into that game.

The fact Ireland were favourites going into that would've killed them all right. NZ winning isn't the worst thing from rugby's pov, given how support for the game is collapsing over there.

Ireland were favourites, but choked on the big stage, again

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

ebop wrote:That game was a surreal watch. Rugby boiled down to kick-fumble-scrum-lineout-penalty. Pretty dire tbf. All the great NH hopes choked this RWC and weren’t up to it when it mattered.

This is sadly the sort of ungracious attitude I have come to expect from some Kiwi fans. Pretty sad really. The ABs win by the tiniest margin v Ireland and some fans default to arrogant dim wits immediately after. If the ABs had as tough a run of games as SA or Ireland Id be confident they would be at home now too.

ABs fans, pundits and players are struggling with the fact their "aura" is completely gone and teams are now going into games expecting to beat them. That's why you get ridiculous comments like above and players acting out like Ioane. It's gonna take time for them to accept this new reality, that they are now just another rugby team.

So true, I honestly hadnt realised how much the Irish side was well and truely camped in Kiwi heads until I saw the reaction of some of the AB players, pundits and in particular Kiwi fans online after their win. The ABs famous "no aholes" policy is obviously for PR purposes only. I think some Kiwis were actually a bit hurt that Ireland were confident going into that game.

The fact Ireland were favourites going into that would've killed them all right. NZ winning isn't the worst thing from rugby's pov, given how support for the game is collapsing over there.

I wanted France or Ireland to win because both teams would have been worthy winners and so there would be a new name on the trophy. Only 4 teams have won it and only one winner has come from the NH. Post group stage SA and NZ have been fantastic, but the end result is very much the same old story. Some of the games in this RWC have really highlighted how fantastic this game can be, but I can't help feeling concerned that it is in danger of going backwards.

ebop wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

ebop wrote:That game was a surreal watch. Rugby boiled down to kick-fumble-scrum-lineout-penalty. Pretty dire tbf. All the great NH hopes choked this RWC and weren’t up to it when it mattered.

This is sadly the sort of ungracious attitude I have come to expect from some Kiwi fans. Pretty sad really. The ABs win by the tiniest margin v Ireland and some fans default to arrogant dim wits immediately after. If the ABs had as tough a run of games as SA or Ireland Id be confident they would be at home now too.

ABs fans, pundits and players are struggling with the fact their "aura" is completely gone and teams are now going into games expecting to beat them. That's why you get ridiculous comments like above and players acting out like Ioane. It's gonna take time for them to accept this new reality, that they are now just another rugby team.

So true, I honestly hadnt realised how much the Irish side was well and truely camped in Kiwi heads until I saw the reaction of some of the AB players, pundits and in particular Kiwi fans online after their win. The ABs famous "no aholes" policy is obviously for PR purposes only. I think some Kiwis were actually a bit hurt that Ireland were confident going into that game.

The fact Ireland were favourites going into that would've killed them all right. NZ winning isn't the worst thing from rugby's pov, given how support for the game is collapsing over there.

Ireland were favourites, but choked on the big stage, again

Yeah maybe but the game is as healthy as its ever been, the future is secure. Let's see how those super rugby attendances are next season.

We get the Irish fans are annoyed that NZ have a chance to win the world Cup. We get NZ fans are annoyed Ireland have the better team.

Lol, and England damn near got to the final when more fancied NH teams failed. Yeah, I admit, and apologies for it, I implied the game today was formulaic. It was interesting.

Wayne Barnes, the most experienced referee in the history of Test rugby, is set to take charge of the World Cup final between New Zealand and South Africa, Telegraph Sport understands.

Happy for Wayne Barnes. Apparently the only other time an Englishman has refereed the World Cup final was in 1995, which was of course also between New Zealand and South Africa.

Loved the contribution from Billy Bunter – ambles on for 1st half cameo, loses his 1st touch in contact, jogs off. Finally gets on at ~70 mins – at the 5M defensive LO, screws up his tackle, 5 seconds later SA score. Takes the ball at 80 mins, knocks it on in contact, game over. What a guy. It’s not possible that there’s not a better no 8 in England, as a rice pudding would be more effective. Mind you, he didn’t lose it for England, in the end that was the 2 replacement props.

Still, the rest of the team were pretty good.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Loved the contribution from Billy Bunter – ambles on for 1st half cameo, loses his 1st touch in contact, jogs off. Finally gets on at ~70 mins – at the 5M defensive LO, screws up his tackle, 5 seconds later SA score. Takes the ball at 80 mins, knocks it on in contact, game over. What a guy. It’s not possible that there’s not a better no 8 in England, as a rice pudding would be more effective. Mind you, he didn’t lose it for England, in the end that was the 2 replacement props.

Still, the rest of the team were pretty good.

You forgot to add that he looked like he genuinely couldn't be bothered. It looked like when he came on the first half that he looked like he'd been disturbed from a nap. I was so disappointed that he was picked over Mercer and Tom Willis. Even Dombrandt. He added nothing apart from a food bill.

Hopefully SB will choose between Barbeary, Mercer and Willis next season. They have much more to offer.

king_carlos wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

lostinwales wrote:I thought Roebuck is going to Scotland?

I know they were after him but thought england were too but I'd not heard he'd decided on Scotland. I've just picked out 2 of the best of not the best kick chasers around.

He's been in England squads but not Scotland ones. Reportedly he was contacted by Scotland and England coaches over the summer when training squads were being selected then didn't feature in either squads. Some rumours that Townsend wanted him in the training squad for Scotland but he held out for England. Apparently Borthwick rates him though.

I would be happy with them looking at Roebuck and Freeman as bigger wings on one side, then Murley and Arundell as rapid ones.

Watson getting/staying fit is the other factor. The good thing about Watson is that when he's got fit recently he tends to find form almost immediately. Similar to Lawes. Both seem to have developed that ability with experience. They don't take lots of minutes to reach their best. So if fit I'd certainly have Watson in the squad. He's our best winger.

I wouldn't be surprised if Daly is looked at as a 13 option. He's probably the nearest like for like to replace the role that Marchant has done well in.

I think it will depend who is showing up so far this season and onward.

Seb Atkinson and Kelly may be fighting out for a 12 spot...which may mean Lawrence can make that 13 spot his. Will Joseph has been in the squads so they'll be watching him.

I genuinely think the next squad naming will be fascinating...as he lose quite a number of his squad.

i wonder if SB will do all he can to keep Cole on for the 6n at least....

You'll be so happy when we line up Farrell Tuilagi and Slade.

Who will?

Everyone. It's the dream.