RWC 2023 Final - New Zealand v South Africa, 28 October

               
NEW ZEALAND v SOUTH AFRICA
28 October 2023
21:00 local time (CEST) (UTC+2)
Stade de France, Saint-Denis

Live on ITV/S4C

Referee: Wayne Barnes (England)
Touch judges: Karl Dickson, Matthew Carley
Television match official: Tom Foley

A. Head to Head

105 Played 105
62 Won 39
4 Drawn 4
39 Lost 62
2185 Points 1728

B. Recent Form

25 September 2021
North Queensland Stadium, Townsville
19–17 to New Zealand

2 October 2021
Robina Stadium, Gold Coast
29–31 to South Africa

6 August 2022
Mbombela Stadium, Mbombela
26–10 to South Africa

13 August 2022
Ellis Park, Johannesburg
23–35 to New Zealand

15 July 2023
Mount Smart Stadium, Auckland
35–20 to New Zealand

25 August 2023
Twickenham Stadium, London
35–7 to South Africa

C. Teams

NEW ZEALAND
B Barrett; Jordan, Ioane, J Barrett, Telea; Mo'unga, Smith; De Groot, Taylor, Lomax, Retallick, S Barrett, Frizell, Cane (capt), Savea.

Replacements: Liernert-Brown for Jordan (71), McKenzie for Mo'unga (75), Christie for Smith (66), Williams for de Groot (66), Taukeiaho for Taylor (66), Papali'i for Retallick (71).Not Used: Laulala, Whitelock.

SOUTH AFRICA
Willemse; Arendse, Kriel, De Allende, Kolbe; Pollard, De Klerk; Kitshoff, Mbonambi, Malherbe, Etzebeth, Mostert, Kolisi (capt), Du Toit, Vermeulen.

Replacements: Fourie for Nbonambi (4) Le Roux for Willemse (66), Nche for Kitshoff (52), Kleyn for Etzebeth (58), Snyman for Mostert (52), Wiese for Kolisi (73), Smith for Vermeulen (58).

Thanks for this.

My gutfeel tells me South Africa are out on their feet, its the last round of a fifteenround heavyweight bout and it is only willpower that are keeping them standing.

New Zealand are injury free, had a tough test the first week, then three practice runs, tough match vs Ireland, and yet another practice run last weekend. I am not saying this to begrudge them, it is just the reality.

It also means they have no injury issues and had the perfect opportunity to find form, confidence and now ultimately the belief they can win.

The Springboks on the other hand played Scotland, Ireland, a very physical Tonga, then France and England. I believe half the teason the Boks struggled last weekend is not being able to lift themselves for the Semi. They ultimately came through, but at what cost physically and mentally?

Selection for this weekend will be a huge debating point.

I don't think there can be too much debate on the forward pack, except I would expect Wiese to replace Vermeulen. Yes Vermeulen has experience, but his number of engagements per match (something Rassie values highly) has dropped significantly.

Iwould expect Libbok to make space for Pollard, Rassinaber has been working on the game plan of softening up the opposition in the first sixty minutes, then bringing in the bomb squad.

What if he uses De Klerk and Pollard to manage the game, build scoreboard pressure and be more conservative whilst he marinating proses is working, then bring on Grant Williams and Libbok on for the last 20?

I have a feeling Am mightget a shot, with Kriel potentially moving to wing for those high kicks and Willemse and Kopber assisiting.

The bench, probably 5-3 if he selects both Pollard and Libbok in the 23. If not likely a 6-2 split.

If the Boks can find a way to have another 80 minutes in them at the intensity they showed vs Ireland and France, they might have a shot, 75 min won't do.

I think the momentum is with the All Blacks, they have their full squad, they have form, had less fatigue and are super confident.

They go into this final heavily favoured in my view.

Think so for exactly the same reasons. ABs have got to expose the Boks staying power to steal the match in the last 20 minutes.
Boks showed in 2019 and even 2007 they can go three tough matches at knockout time.
Our formula is pretty simple. Stay with SA in the tight, push the big boys around all day, cut the mistakes, cut the poor discipline, maximise the counter and breakdown opportunities.
… easily said…

Old Man wrote:Thanks for this.

My gutfeel tells me South Africa are out on their feet, its the last round of a fifteenround heavyweight bout and it is only willpower that are keeping them standing.

New Zealand are injury free, had a tough test the first week, then three practice runs, tough match vs Ireland, and yet another practice run last weekend. I am not saying this to begrudge them, it is just the reality.

It also means they have no injury issues and had the perfect opportunity to find form, confidence and now ultimately the belief they can win.

The Springboks on the other hand played Scotland, Ireland, a very physical Tonga, then France and England. I believe half the teason the Boks struggled last weekend is not being able to lift themselves for the Semi. They ultimately came through, but at what cost physically and mentally?

Selection for this weekend will be a huge debating point.

I don't think there can be too much debate on the forward pack, except I would expect Wiese to replace Vermeulen. Yes Vermeulen has experience, but his number of engagements per match (something Rassie values highly) has dropped significantly.

Iwould expect Libbok to make space for Pollard, Rassinaber has been working on the game plan of softening up the opposition in the first sixty minutes, then bringing in the bomb squad.

What if he uses De Klerk and Pollard to manage the game, build scoreboard pressure and be more conservative whilst he marinating proses is working, then bring on Grant Williams and Libbok on for the last 20?

I have a feeling Am mightget a shot, with Kriel potentially moving to wing for those high kicks and Willemse and Kopber assisiting.

The bench, probably 5-3 if he selects both Pollard and Libbok in the 23. If not likely a 6-2 split.

If the Boks can find a way to have another 80 minutes in them at the intensity they showed vs Ireland and France, they might have a shot, 75 min won't do.

I think the momentum is with the All Blacks, they have their full squad, they have form, had less fatigue and are super confident.

They go into this final heavily favoured in my view.

Oh well predictable I guess. I am beginning to wonder if you actually support the Boks at all. Every post is so negative not even complimenting a win at all. Spend more time talking up the team that actually lost the match

England pounded SA without an attack.

Easy win for NZ

NZ might well win - they've been my tip for RWC - but I doubt very much be easy.

I think this could go the way of the previous SA vs NZ fixture (at Twickenham).

All depends on what is Rassie cookin'?

Not much in it I'd say. Happy to be in the final and looking forward to the weekend!

Old Man wrote:Thanks for this.

My gutfeel tells me South Africa are out on their feet, its the last round of a fifteenround heavyweight bout and it is only willpower that are keeping them standing.

New Zealand are injury free, had a tough test the first week, then three practice runs, tough match vs Ireland, and yet another practice run last weekend. I am not saying this to begrudge them, it is just the reality.

It also means they have no injury issues and had the perfect opportunity to find form, confidence and now ultimately the belief they can win.

The Springboks on the other hand played Scotland, Ireland, a very physical Tonga, then France and England. I believe half the teason the Boks struggled last weekend is not being able to lift themselves for the Semi. They ultimately came through, but at what cost physically and mentally?

Selection for this weekend will be a huge debating point.

I don't think there can be too much debate on the forward pack, except I would expect Wiese to replace Vermeulen. Yes Vermeulen has experience, but his number of engagements per match (something Rassie values highly) has dropped significantly.

Iwould expect Libbok to make space for Pollard, Rassinaber has been working on the game plan of softening up the opposition in the first sixty minutes, then bringing in the bomb squad.

What if he uses De Klerk and Pollard to manage the game, build scoreboard pressure and be more conservative whilst he marinating proses is working, then bring on Grant Williams and Libbok on for the last 20?

I have a feeling Am mightget a shot, with Kriel potentially moving to wing for those high kicks and Willemse and Kopber assisiting.

The bench, probably 5-3 if he selects both Pollard and Libbok in the 23. If not likely a 6-2 split.

If the Boks can find a way to have another 80 minutes in them at the intensity they showed vs Ireland and France, they might have a shot, 75 min won't do.

I think the momentum is with the All Blacks, they have their full squad, they have form, had less fatigue and are super confident.

They go into this final heavily favoured in my view.

Yes, the toll will be mental as much as physical. England showed what you can achieve if the difficulty level is gradually upped and you gain some momentum. It's clear that if South African win the whole tin cup, they will have earned it more than any other team I have ever seen.

I think it will be very close. I think that the penalty count will decide it.

protea438 wrote:

Old Man wrote:Thanks for this.

My gutfeel tells me South Africa are out on their feet, its the last round of a fifteenround heavyweight bout and it is only willpower that are keeping them standing.

New Zealand are injury free, had a tough test the first week, then three practice runs, tough match vs Ireland, and yet another practice run last weekend. I am not saying this to begrudge them, it is just the reality.

It also means they have no injury issues and had the perfect opportunity to find form, confidence and now ultimately the belief they can win.

The Springboks on the other hand played Scotland, Ireland, a very physical Tonga, then France and England. I believe half the teason the Boks struggled last weekend is not being able to lift themselves for the Semi. They ultimately came through, but at what cost physically and mentally?

Selection for this weekend will be a huge debating point.

I don't think there can be too much debate on the forward pack, except I would expect Wiese to replace Vermeulen. Yes Vermeulen has experience, but his number of engagements per match (something Rassie values highly) has dropped significantly.

Iwould expect Libbok to make space for Pollard, Rassinaber has been working on the game plan of softening up the opposition in the first sixty minutes, then bringing in the bomb squad.

What if he uses De Klerk and Pollard to manage the game, build scoreboard pressure and be more conservative whilst he marinating proses is working, then bring on Grant Williams and Libbok on for the last 20?

I have a feeling Am mightget a shot, with Kriel potentially moving to wing for those high kicks and Willemse and Kopber assisiting.

The bench, probably 5-3 if he selects both Pollard and Libbok in the 23. If not likely a 6-2 split.

If the Boks can find a way to have another 80 minutes in them at the intensity they showed vs Ireland and France, they might have a shot, 75 min won't do.

I think the momentum is with the All Blacks, they have their full squad, they have form, had less fatigue and are super confident.

They go into this final heavily favoured in my view.

Oh well predictable I guess. I am beginning to wonder if you actually support the Boks at all. Every post is so negative not even complimenting a win at all. Spend more time talking up the team that actually lost the match

Ah, the band wagon blindly follow the crowd like a sheep poster. If anything I say here can be construed as illogical, farcical or ignorant, you can argue I am negative.

Or maybe just consider my concerns are realistic. But then, that's not who you are.

Here is a stat for you.

South Africa will play all top six sides in this tournament
The imbalanced nature of the draw was well known, however, just how tough it could get was not immediately obvious. South Africa as the 1st ranked side in the world had to play Ireland (3rd) and Scotland (6th) in the pool stages, then knock out France (4th) and England (5th) in the quarter and semi. This leaves only New Zealand (now 2nd) in their way. In contrast to England’s semi final run, the rankings of teams they played were 7th, 12th, 23rd, 15th and 10th before meeting South Africa.

If SA do win and I do have the All Blacks as clearly favourites, then boy will they deserve it.

I can't recall any side having such a tough run to the final as they have had.

Gréât work GC! NZ by 14

Rare we see NZ with a light run at this stage of the comp. Normally we are down to our forth 10, have no first line kicker and injuries galore. Now we have a fresh side that looks ready to start its campaign, not finish it. A couple of tough matches but we navigated those and they were spread out. Can’t say we aren’t ready.

Bok team for final

Springbok team: 15 Damian Willemse, 14 Kurt-Lee Arendse, 13 Jesse Kriel, 12 Damian de Allende, 11 Cheslin Kolbe, 10 Handre Pollard, 9 Faf de Klerk 8 Duane Vermeulen, 7 Pieter-Steph du Toit, 6 Siya Kolisi (captain), 5 Franco Mostert, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Frans Malherbe, 2 Bongi Mbonambi, 1 Steven Kitshoff.

Replacements: 16 Deon Fourie, 17 Ox Nche, 18 Trevor Nyakane, 19, Jean Kleyn 20 RG Snyman, 21 Kwagga Smith, 22 Jasper Wiese , 23 Willie le Roux.

I had a feeling Boks would do it again. Who’s covering 9 and 10?

7:1 again

It worked last time but still a massive risk I think. All Bkacks will know what to expect as well, they look a different team to last time.

Very intruiging all the same.

mikey_dragon wrote:I had a feeling Boks would do it again. Who’s covering 9 and 10?

Willemse can play FH, Le Roux as well at a pinch.

The big risk is an early injury to Faf, he is the one it seems hard to cover!

I guess Kwagga Smith can play scrum-half too.

mikey_dragon wrote:I had a feeling Boks would do it again. Who’s covering 9 and 10?

Kolbe I think has covered 9 for the Boks before. Willemse can play flyhalf with le Roux going to fullback in his place if required.

mikey_dragon wrote:I guess Kwagga Smith can play scrum-half too.

In the Mauro Bergemasco tradition!

formerly known as Sam wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I had a feeling Boks would do it again. Who’s covering 9 and 10?

Kolbe I think has covered 9 for the Boks before. Willemse can play flyhalf with le Roux going to fullback in his place if required.

I guess he would be the obvious choice and he would likely be able to get the ball away well enough and has a decent enough break!

It is the specialised kicking of the SH that would be a lot harder for him to replicate.

BigGee wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I had a feeling Boks would do it again. Who’s covering 9 and 10?

Kolbe I think has covered 9 for the Boks before. Willemse can play flyhalf with le Roux going to fullback in his place if required.

I guess he would be the obvious choice and he would likely be able to get the ball away well enough and has a decent enough break!

It is the specialised kicking of the SH that would be a lot harder for him to replicate.

I suspect Kolbe will go to 9, Kriel to wing and Kwagga anywhere else

In 1995, most neutrals seemed to slightly favour the South Africa, as New Zealand looked unstoppable, so the Boks were seen as underdogs.

That's not really the case now. I'm never sure whether to support the side whcih beat my team, so I can say we lost to the eventual champions, or hold a grudge that they beat us, and hope they suffer defeat too.

Probably going to see how the game goes, and maybe get behind the team which most looks under the cosh.

(Definitely won't be making any decision based on supporters on social media. It's not fair on any team to be judged by the obnoxiousness of their loudest loudmouths.)

Rugby Fan wrote:In 1995, most neutrals seemed to slightly favour the South Africa, as New Zealand looked unstoppable, so the Boks were seen as underdogs.

That's not really the case now. I'm never sure whether to support the side whcih beat my team, so I can say we lost to the eventual champions, or hold a grudge that they beat us, and hope they suffer defeat too.

Probably going to see how the game goes, and maybe get behind the team which most looks under the cosh.

(Definitely won't be making any decision based on supporters on social media. It's not fair on any team to be judged by the obnoxiousness of their loudest loudmouths.)

Realistically Boks are underdogs, NZ has had an easier run, have looked a million dollars and no injuries.

It will be really tough for the Boks to ppick themselves up again enough for the purpose they need ro beat the All Blacks.

Old Man wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:In 1995, most neutrals seemed to slightly favour the South Africa, as New Zealand looked unstoppable, so the Boks were seen as underdogs.

That's not really the case now. I'm never sure whether to support the side whcih beat my team, so I can say we lost to the eventual champions, or hold a grudge that they beat us, and hope they suffer defeat too.

Probably going to see how the game goes, and maybe get behind the team which most looks under the cosh.

(Definitely won't be making any decision based on supporters on social media. It's not fair on any team to be judged by the obnoxiousness of their loudest loudmouths.)

Realistically Boks are underdogs, NZ has had an easier run, have looked a million dollars and no injuries.

It will be really tough for the Boks to ppick themselves up again enough for the purpose they need ro beat the All Blacks.

True, but if any side has won through three unlikely knockouts the Boks are it.
Apparently this is the most experienced Bok side ever?
The win factors are very different for both sides. Boks drawing on grit, staying power, massive experience, ABs on some sort of recent rejuvenation since the French loss when things were looking glum. They’re a far more cohesive unit now than they’ve been for two to three years.
Looks like ‘key moments’ are going to win the day.
All the best Old man! I’m just glad somehow we’re even playing this.

Taylorman wrote:

Old Man wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:In 1995, most neutrals seemed to slightly favour the South Africa, as New Zealand looked unstoppable, so the Boks were seen as underdogs.

That's not really the case now. I'm never sure whether to support the side whcih beat my team, so I can say we lost to the eventual champions, or hold a grudge that they beat us, and hope they suffer defeat too.

Probably going to see how the game goes, and maybe get behind the team which most looks under the cosh.

(Definitely won't be making any decision based on supporters on social media. It's not fair on any team to be judged by the obnoxiousness of their loudest loudmouths.)

Realistically Boks are underdogs, NZ has had an easier run, have looked a million dollars and no injuries.

It will be really tough for the Boks to ppick themselves up again enough for the purpose they need ro beat the All Blacks.

True, but if any side has won through three unlikely knockouts the Boks are it.
Apparently this is the most experienced Bok side ever?
The win factors are very different for both sides. Boks drawing on grit, staying power, massive experience, ABs on some sort of recent rejuvenation since the French loss when things were looking glum. They’re a far more cohesive unit now than they’ve been for two to three years.
Looks like ‘key moments’ are going to win the day.
All the best Old man! I’m just glad somehow we’re even playing this.

Yes the All Black resurgence is real, it seems adding Joe Schmidt and co last year is bearing fruits.

The thing with experience is sometimes you take the requirement for experience too far, Vermeulen case in point, haven't seen a great match from him in years. Marx will be missed.

It is the dream final though, isn't it?

What All Blacks resurgence? If they were winning all their games then I'd agree. They were soundly beaten by SA and France quite recently. They're as good as they have been for the last 3 years... The assistant coaches were hung out to dry early in Foster's reign, it should have been him to go.

Who are New Zealand's next host of locks? If they don't find more depth there I also think Robertson could struggle.

Resurgence as in this RWC. Also, they beat us soundly at Mount Smart earlier this year.

Old Man wrote:Resurgence as in this RWC. Also, they beat us soundly at Mount Smart earlier this year.

Personally I feel South Africa are a better side and if all things were even they would beat NZ at least two in every three games as their pack is much better in my view.

However, NZ's draw has been a bit of a leveler for them in this tournament and SA having had their hardest ever run to the final may just be creaking a bit too much.

I definitely wouldn't describe it as my dream final as I think Ireland and France are still marginally better than the ABs even if the ABs are in the final on merit.

I see the Boks have gone with a 7:1 bench, if that doesn't make the ABs a little nervous nothing will. However, in my view it is a mistake given how much of a toll the world cup has had on their players.

I believe that whatever the result Ireland will climb from 3rd to 2nd in the world after the final with either SA or NZ dropping to third.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Old Man wrote:Resurgence as in this RWC. Also, they beat us soundly at Mount Smart earlier this year.

Personally I feel South Africa are a better side and if all things were even they would beat NZ at least two in every three games as their pack is much better in my view.

However, NZ's draw has been a bit of a leveler for them in this tournament and SA having had their hardest ever run to the final may just be creaking a bit too much.

I definitely wouldn't describe it as my dream final as I think Ireland and France are still marginally better than the ABs even if the ABs are in the final on merit.

I see the Boks have gone with a 7:1 bench, if that doesn't make the ABs a little nervous nothing will. However, in my view it is a mistake given how much of a toll the world cup has had on their players.

I think Nienaber is throwing all his eggs in ons basket, he knows his players have had a harder run at the final, and to keep NZ under pressure he needs to ensure his forwards have enough energy left for 80 minutes. High risk no doubt, but no risk nomreward.

I think you are right

mikey_dragon wrote:What All Blacks resurgence? If they were winning all their games then I'd agree. They were soundly beaten by SA and France quite recently. They're as good as they have been for the last 3 years... The assistant coaches were hung out to dry early in Foster's reign, it should have been him to go.

Who are New Zealand's next host of locks? If they don't find more depth there I also think Robertson could struggle.

Mini resurgence then. Since the French loss the ABs with presumably the help this time of the lesser pool games has allowed a mini run of some sustained continuity of good rugby for a few hundred minutes since France. Settling in with solid performances against lesser sides allowed them to take on Ireland, and dominate Argentina. The post France performance is by far the best in terms of consistency in Fozzies tenure. Not because of the lighter opposition, but because of the consistency of team and individual performance. That in pool continued into the knockouts.

Razor has it all uphill. He’ll be facing selecting sides from a pool of players that is not the best any longer. With the Saders he entered a strong culture and made it stronger.
With the AB exits his challenge is massive and it will test him to the max.

Mini resurgence is fair, and it was an impressive Rugby Championship win from the boys in black.

NZ for the last 30 years could cope with player drains very well, I don’t think they could cope that well now though. The big teams have exposed them often up front, something always unheard of when facing the All Blacks. I think Razor is probably the man to do it though, excellent coach.

Old Man wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Old Man wrote:Resurgence as in this RWC. Also, they beat us soundly at Mount Smart earlier this year.

I see the Boks have gone with a 7:1 bench, if that doesn't make the ABs a little nervous nothing will. However, in my view it is a mistake given how much of a toll the world cup has had on their players.

I think Nienaber is throwing all his eggs in ons basket, he knows his players have had a harder run at the final, and to keep NZ under pressure he needs to ensure his forwards have enough energy left for 80 minutes. High risk no doubt, but no risk nomreward.

The 7-1 bench will not only maintain the bok physicality it will absorb the impact of the ABs tiring the forwards out. It just makes sense based on their approach.
Our so called ‘Bomb squad’ response has evolved into the ‘Easy Company’ outfit- as uneasy a war metaphor in sport might gaul, a bench of finishers and playmaker to’diffuse’ the bombs.

… just another game of rugby really…

mikey_dragon wrote:Mini resurgence is fair, and it was an impressive Rugby Championship win from the boys in black.

NZ for the last 30 years could cope with player drains very well, I don’t think they could cope that well now though. The big teams have exposed them often up front, something always unheard of when facing the All Blacks. I think Razor is probably the man to do it though, excellent coach.

We haven’t coped since 2015. Only with Frizell lately have we found anything near resembling Kainos presence. Jordies 12 form has only made the grade very recently. Savea is a bonus but isn’t an 8.
We haven’t got near replacing Ritchie though Cane has been an ok response with the Ireland effort. We’re using the same half, locks, and Mou’aga is probably our best newbie since 2015, along with Reiko, whose defence is limited, and Ardie.
Ok at hooker, a lot of work needed at prop.

Boks to shade this one for me. NZ were excellent against Ireland but couldn't handle the maul and despite winning penalties in the scrum I thought they were going backwards. South Africa are far superior to Ireland in both of these facets.

In case anyone wants some content

Squidge preview (Welsh):



Springboks & All Blacks legends preview:



Keo & Zels Show (South African)



Left Wing Podcast Preview (Irish)



The Breakdown Preview (NZ)



Rugby Analyst (English)

I like the Koe and Zels show, they are hilarious

Rugby Fan wrote:In case anyone wants some content

Coooool, thanks

Old Man wrote:

It is the dream final though, isn't it?

Sure is, historically the clash of the world 1 and 2 for a century. Amazing its only a second time, and this partly because of some skewed pool results.

Despite Razors potential I fear we will be dropping out of the top 3 on a more permanent basis going forward. SA will get stronger because of their much larger player pool thats starting to dominate the side since the 90's. Europe is finally starting to stand up on their own, and Oz and NZ for different reasons will continue to send its best players overseas while theyre still attractive.

We no longer have a competitive edge.

Graham Henry (he starts talking at the four minute mark):

This is potentially like England losing Sinckler four years ago.

Means a yellow, and potential red, for NZ's Frizell.

Looked like a cheap shot to me!

BigGee wrote:Looked like a cheap shot to me!

It looks bad from the angle shown. I’d like to see the reverse angle (though I doubt we will be shown it) to see if Frizzell enters legally and slips (his right arm is on Mbonambi’s shoulder), or if he’s always illegal.

I also wouldn’t be surprised if he’s adjudged “not English” by the bunker and it stays at yellow - but I imagine he will be sweating on the bench.

Well I was neutral for this game but I’m behind the blacks now after blatant cheating from South Africa. Unbelievable they can get away with that

You mean the 'tactical' sub?

Card stays as YC

Bet Frizzell breathing easier now, that could easily have gone Red

We knew it was never going to be red though ...

Frizzell has indeed been adjudged “not English”, biut Faf milks a second penalty so hard that it moos.