England U20s Six Nations

First topic message reminder :

Squad has been named for the Italy game.  


15 Ben Redshaw (Newcastle Falcons)
14 Toby Cousins (Northampton Saints) *
13 Ben Waghorn (Harlequins) *
12 Sean Kerr (Harlequins)
11 Alex Wills (Sale Sharks) *

10 Rory Taylor (Gloucester Rugby)
9 Archie McParland (Northampton Saints)

1 Asher Opoku-Fordjour (Sale Sharks) *
2 Craig Wright (Northampton Saints) *
3 Billy Sela (Bath Rugby)
4 Olamide Sodeke (Saracens)
5 Junior Kpoku (Racing 92)
6 Finn Carnduff (c) (Leicester Tigers) *
7 Henry Pollock (Northampton Saints)
8 Zach Carr (Harlequins) *


Replacements

16 Jacob Oliver (Newcastle Falcons)
17 Scott Kirk (Bath Rugby)
18 James Halliwell (Bristol Bears) *
19 Joe Bailey (Exeter Chiefs) *
20 Nathan Michelow (Saracens) *
21 Ben Douglas (Newcastle Falcons)
22 Josh Bellamy (Harlequins)
23 Ollie Spencer (Newcastle)

Some good players, the two starting props are beasts for this level, both exceptional in the loose.  There are quite a few other recognisable names in there (and ones I'm not too familiar with).  To be honest we could do with another strong generation.  The last couple of tournaments the performances have been pretty underwhelming.

Given the crap line-out - brave or stupid call?

Heaf wrote:Given the crap line-out - brave or stupid call?

Stupid and lucky...

Well taken try

Collapse2005 wrote:

Geordie wrote:Irelands technical skills level looks way higher than Englands in general...and they've coped with the supposed  size / physicality difference...which has been barely noticeable...

Well the size/power has kept England in the game.

To a degree....but Irelands lads look strong and physical. At this stage in their career...I would say they look better prepared adapting to the seniors than many of these England lads....

Still time to f*ck it up ...

Super kick too. Very good game in the end, two very different sides.

I don't think there is a lot in the size stakes, I don't think England are that much bigger.

What's the advantage for?

Longest advantage ever

On the reffing, I find that generally speaking the refs at U20s are more lenient when it comes to cards for things other than foul play. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it's partly in agreement with the coaches. At the end of the day, it's a development pathway more than anything at this level. From experience coaching at age grade, it's generally very hard to glean much if a team goes down to 14 men. Younger players just don't adapt to it as well.

The Irish coaching pathways are so efficient now. The funnelling of the best talent into those elite schools where the coaching levels are so professional. Stephen Aboud did an exceptional job in that "Head of Technical Direction" role. I think Mark McCall is well suited to the similar role he now holds at the RFU. He's got a ton of experience from club and international level, plus McCall was integral in getting the academies developed early in his coaching career. Ideally, I was hoping that Aboud would get that job at the RFU though.

Tigers bias, blah blah, but Finn Carduff has really impressed me again from what I've seen here since getting the stream up in the second half.

mountain man wrote:Longest advantage ever

There were about four penalty advantages

Great draw, probably a fair result

Those were subsequent to initial which he took back for.

Collapse2005 wrote:

mountain man wrote:Longest advantage ever

There were about four penalty advantages

Yeah but he first one went on for ages and they got to within a few yards of the line before losing the ball - looked like an advantage to me ... ref pretty lenient overall

Exactly.

The Ireland under 20s havent lost a 6N games since July 2021 so good result for England.

Anyway I'd take that score tomorrow.

The basic lack of skills from England during that was awful. Once the initial attack broke down there was no organisation and was a kncok on waiting to happen. I reckon we'd have done better if the reserve ten had started. I don't want to be harsh on a young lad, but the starting ten was awful.

mountain man wrote:Anyway I'd take that score tomorrow.

England win tomorrow...my bet says so...

One with Wales and Italy wins...

Collapse2005 wrote:The Ireland under 20s havent lost a 6N games since July 2021 so good result for England.

Have they got into a semi final of a JWC?

Have to say for all the hype about Pollock he was outplayed by Ward.
Great game. England with a lot of power, but much like the senior team silly mistakes cost them.
Ireland showed some great skill and didn't take a step back.
Another excellent U20s match

Heaf wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

mountain man wrote:Longest advantage ever

There were about four penalty advantages

Yeah but he first one went on for ages and they got to within a few yards of the line before losing the ball - looked like an advantage to me ... ref pretty lenient overall

Englands first try was a double movement, you can count yourselves lucky on that one.

king_carlos wrote:
Tigers bias, blah blah, but Finn Carduff has really impressed me again from what I've seen here since getting the stream up in the second half.

Martin Corry rebooted....

Cumbrian wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:The Ireland under 20s havent lost a 6N games since July 2021 so good result for England.

Have they got into a semi final of a JWC?

They were in the final of the last one.

I do worry that Pollock is an U20 superstar. I know I've said it before, but I'm reminded of Alex Gray, he was brilliant at this level but ended up playing backward silly point in the NFL after years of doing nothing at senior level. Was more interested in Carnduff to be honest.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:The Ireland under 20s havent lost a 6N games since July 2021 so good result for England.

Have they got into a semi final of a JWC?

They were in the final of the last one.

Very good, but have they won it?

If some of these big England boys can learn some subtle skills...then they'll be quite some proposition...

The backs though..need to calm a little..too rushed all the time..trying to get the pass away, trying to do whatever...

But this is all about development and learning...

Cumbrian wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:The Ireland under 20s havent lost a 6N games since July 2021 so good result for England.

Have they got into a semi final of a JWC?

They were in the final of the last one.

Very good, but have they won it?

Runner up twice.

To be fair we've been gash for about three years, so I'm not sure why I'm throwing shade...

Collapse2005 wrote:

Heaf wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

mountain man wrote:Longest advantage ever

There were about four penalty advantages

Yeah but he first one went on for ages and they got to within a few yards of the line before losing the ball - looked like an advantage to me ... ref pretty lenient overall

Englands first try was a double movement, you can count yourselves lucky on that one.

Nah - ball was grounded before the 2nd movement ... anyway Ireland scored after the most crooked of crooked line-outs and should have had a man in the bin earlier ...

But good game and agree draw was probably the fair result - Ireland far more clinical ...

Cumbrian wrote:I do worry that Pollock is an U20 superstar.  I know I've said it before, but I'm reminded of Alex Gray, he was brilliant at this level but ended up playing backward silly point in the NFL after years of doing nothing at senior level. Was more interested in Carnduff to be honest.

Having seen Pollock look really impressive on his Prem debut when he got 30 minutes off the bench, I reckon he'll make it. Whether the U20s stars go onto long England careers is a different story. I think it will take massive injury misfortune to prevent Pollock having a very good pro career though.

Cumbrian wrote:To be fair we've been gash for about three years, so I'm not sure why I'm throwing shade...

Because you can,,,, because you can

king_carlos wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:I do worry that Pollock is an U20 superstar.  I know I've said it before, but I'm reminded of Alex Gray, he was brilliant at this level but ended up playing backward silly point in the NFL after years of doing nothing at senior level. Was more interested in Carnduff to be honest.

Having seen Pollock look really impressive on his Prem debut when he got 30 minutes off the bench, I reckon he'll make it. Whether the U20s stars go onto long England careers is a different story. I think it will take massive injury misfortune to prevent Pollock having a very good pro career though.

Well he's in a position for England that's got some decent players who arent old yet and the likes of Pepper just ahead of him supposedly moving to Bath in the summer. ...so he's got a battle on his hands.

Irelands development path looks really good...impressed withbthevskill level of those tonight.

I hope England take this on board.

king_carlos wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:I do worry that Pollock is an U20 superstar.  I know I've said it before, but I'm reminded of Alex Gray, he was brilliant at this level but ended up playing backward silly point in the NFL after years of doing nothing at senior level. Was more interested in Carnduff to be honest.

Having seen Pollock look really impressive on his Prem debut when he got 30 minutes off the bench, I reckon he'll make it. Whether the U20s stars go onto long England careers is a different story. I think it will take massive injury misfortune to prevent Pollock having a very good pro career though.

I really hope you're right, I suppose I've been burned too many times before. From this generation, I will be satisfied if we can find some good props to to proceed with. I'm tentatively hoping we've turned the corner in this respect: Brantingham, AOF, Sela, Fasogbon and Rodd give me hope that we'll have a decent front row in the the next 2-3 years.

Geordie wrote:If some of these big England boys can learn some subtle skills...then they'll be quite some proposition...

The backs though..need to calm a little..too rushed all the time..trying to get the pass away, trying to do whatever...

But this is all about development and learning...

You mean like catching and positioning?

Cumbrian wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:I do worry that Pollock is an U20 superstar.  I know I've said it before, but I'm reminded of Alex Gray, he was brilliant at this level but ended up playing backward silly point in the NFL after years of doing nothing at senior level. Was more interested in Carnduff to be honest.

Having seen Pollock look really impressive on his Prem debut when he got 30 minutes off the bench, I reckon he'll make it. Whether the U20s stars go onto long England careers is a different story. I think it will take massive injury misfortune to prevent Pollock having a very good pro career though.

I really hope you're right, I suppose I've been burned too many times before.  From this generation, I will be satisfied if we can find some good props to to proceed with.   I'm tentatively hoping we've turned the corner in this respect: Brantingham, AOF, Sela,  Fasogbon and Rodd give me hope that we'll have a decent front row in the the next 2-3 years.

I was there until I saw Rodd...lol. can we move away from these non scrummaging props now please.

To be honest the reserve front row tonight looked better that lh from Bristol...kirk was it...and the sub tighthead..

Carnduff...looked good..

Carnduff is very highly rated at Tigers. Came off the bench to play lock Vs Quins about a month ago, looked right at home at Prem level. He'll naturally bulk out a bit more and the conversation will be whether he's better at lock or 6. I'm hoping 6 personally, long term successor to Liebenburg and Tigers do have other young locks.

Pollock is quick and he's skillful. He's looked decent so far at Saints. It's normally the guys that get by on their physicality that struggle to make the step up. Was Gray's issue, he was quick for his position and had decent hands but couldn't take his physicality up a few notches to mix it with the big boys unfortunately. Pollock does need to beef up a bit but he's only just turned 19 so that will come, he's got another year at this level.

Harlequins seem to have some good U20s players, but I refuse to google ‘big blonde hooker ‘ again, once is enough.

Cumbrian wrote:Harlequins seem to have some good  U20s players, but I refuse to google ‘big blonde hooker ‘ again, once  is enough.

That's the excuse you gave the other half was it.

That's a second draw in a row against Ireland after the Junior World Cup last year.

Cumbrian wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:The Ireland under 20s havent lost a 6N games since July 2021 so good result for England.

Have they got into a semi final of a JWC?

They were in the final of the last one.

Very good, but have they won it?

Not the U20 version, although as mentioned they were runners up last year and have probably been the next best side to France at this level in the post-Covid period. I vaguely recall them winning a junior World tournament around the turn of the century though.

king_carlos wrote:On the reffing, I find that generally speaking the refs at U20s are more lenient when it comes to cards for things other than foul play. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it's partly in agreement with the coaches. At the end of the day, it's a development pathway more than anything at this level. From experience coaching at age grade, it's generally very hard to glean much if a team goes down to 14 men. Younger players just don't adapt to it as well.

The Irish coaching pathways are so efficient now. The funnelling of the best talent into those elite schools where the coaching levels are so professional. Stephen Aboud did an exceptional job in that "Head of Technical Direction" role. I think Mark McCall is well suited to the similar role he now holds at the RFU. He's got a ton of experience from club and international level, plus McCall was integral in getting the academies developed early in his coaching career. Ideally, I was hoping that Aboud would get that job at the RFU though.

Tigers bias, blah blah, but Finn Carduff has really impressed me again from what I've seen here since getting the stream up in the second half.

Did you mean Conor O'Shea rather than McCall?

Cumbrian wrote:Lineout has been a massive weakness, lost more than they've won.  Really difficult to win games like that.

Missed Craig Wright, lineout had been solid with him in the first three games. Hopefully he'll be back for the summer.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Pollock is quick and he's skillful. He's looked decent so far at Saints. It's normally the guys that get by on their physicality that struggle to make the step up. Was Gray's issue, he was quick for his position and had decent hands but couldn't take his physicality up a few notches to mix it with the big boys unfortunately. Pollock does need to beef up a bit but he's only just turned 19 so that will come, he's got another year at this level.

He's no Guy Pepper Sam....

[quote="Flintoff05"
Did you mean Conor O'Shea rather than McCall? .[/quote]

I think he might have meant Mark Mapletoft (who helped COS set up the academy system, then joined him at Quins and is now U20s head coach)

Why is handling so poor by England players? Exact same issues as senior side, unforced errors costing them.
It has to be the emphasis on purely the physical size and bulk at expense of passing and catching a ball.

Look at NZ sides for bench mark, if a player drops ball it's a surprise. Unfortunately with England it's almost expected at times.

Poorfour wrote:

Flintoff05 wrote:
Did you mean Conor O'Shea rather than McCall?  .

I think he might have meant Mark Mapletoft (who helped COS set up the academy system, then joined him at Quins and is now U20s head coach)

I meant O'Shea, sorry.

COS is currently performance director and meant to be repairing the pathways. He was director of the academies in the Noughties before coaching Quins. Then he was with Italy of course.

Stephen Aboud was integral in building the IRFU's pathway during nearly 3 decades with them, finishing as Head of Technical Direction. Then he did a similar role with Italy, who's pathways improved immeasurably under Aboud's guidance.

My post was saying that I don't think COS is a bad hire for the role but ideally I hoped Aboud would be the former IRF employee that they hired for that role.

Then I typed McCall for reasons I'm unsure of!

king_carlos wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

Flintoff05 wrote:
Did you mean Conor O'Shea rather than McCall?  .

I think he might have meant Mark Mapletoft (who helped COS set up the academy system, then joined him at Quins and is now U20s head coach)

I meant O'Shea, sorry.

COS is currently performance director and meant to be repairing the pathways. He was director of the academies in the Noughties before coaching Quins. Then he was with Italy of course.

Stephen Aboud was integral in building the IRFU's pathway during nearly 3 decades with them, finishing as Head of Technical Direction. Then he did a similar role with Italy, who's pathways improved immeasurably under Aboud's guidance.

My post was saying that I don't think COS is a bad hire for the role but ideally I hoped Aboud would be the former IRF employee that they hired for that role.

Then I typed McCall for reasons I'm unsure of!

Because he's The Equaliser who you call when you have a problem?

France having a stormer so far, some brilliant tries.

I see Ben Redshaw scored a cracker...how long till he's linked with another club...meh.

Tied up!

doctor_grey wrote:Tied up!

?