England U20s Six Nations

First topic message reminder :

Squad has been named for the Italy game.  


15 Ben Redshaw (Newcastle Falcons)
14 Toby Cousins (Northampton Saints) *
13 Ben Waghorn (Harlequins) *
12 Sean Kerr (Harlequins)
11 Alex Wills (Sale Sharks) *

10 Rory Taylor (Gloucester Rugby)
9 Archie McParland (Northampton Saints)

1 Asher Opoku-Fordjour (Sale Sharks) *
2 Craig Wright (Northampton Saints) *
3 Billy Sela (Bath Rugby)
4 Olamide Sodeke (Saracens)
5 Junior Kpoku (Racing 92)
6 Finn Carnduff (c) (Leicester Tigers) *
7 Henry Pollock (Northampton Saints)
8 Zach Carr (Harlequins) *


Replacements

16 Jacob Oliver (Newcastle Falcons)
17 Scott Kirk (Bath Rugby)
18 James Halliwell (Bristol Bears) *
19 Joe Bailey (Exeter Chiefs) *
20 Nathan Michelow (Saracens) *
21 Ben Douglas (Newcastle Falcons)
22 Josh Bellamy (Harlequins)
23 Ollie Spencer (Newcastle)

Some good players, the two starting props are beasts for this level, both exceptional in the loose.  There are quite a few other recognisable names in there (and ones I'm not too familiar with).  To be honest we could do with another strong generation.  The last couple of tournaments the performances have been pretty underwhelming.

Wham Bam, Thank You, Ma'am.

Geordie wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Tied up!

?

Not the girl, the Rugby. No longer tied up, though.

What a game! France some superb rugby but England never stopped fighting.

This particular team had a lot of resilience. Can't believe they were 21-5 down.

Player of the Match (again)  Henry Pollock.  

U20 Six Nations Champions.  Great show.

It is remarkable that they were within a whisker of winning the slam without ever benefiting from something as exotic as a backline...

Fair play young lads, a Six Nations title is not to be sniffed at.

Some cracking tries in there. France have some big lumps but they tire easily and once you turn them they don't seem to be able to recover. Junior kopoku looks like a machine along with our replacement second row.

To be honest I don't like to carp (I love it) France could and should have had at least another player in the bin during that.  THe French backs were electric, and looked so much better than their English counterparts.  On the other hand,  I thought that the English back dealt with the (I'm just going to say it) flabby French pack. For all the crowd reaction fot Tuilagi, I thought the white orcs dealt with him pretty well. My takeaway from this would be put down the pastry Francois...

Kpoku got better through the series. Sodeke played like a madman when he got on the pitch.

As for the backs at least it looks like we have another SH coming through

Aye, McParland looks like he'll be a quality wee player.

Pollock the pick of the lot from what I've seen.

Carnduff, Sodeke and Kpoku were also consistently impressive.

I'm hoping that Fasogbon can feature more in the U20 WC later this year. He'd add even more heft to the pack.

king_carlos wrote:Aye, McParland looks like he'll be a quality wee player.

Pollock the pick of the lot from what I've seen.

Carnduff, Sodeke and Kpoku were also consistently impressive.

I'm hoping that Fasogbon can feature more in the U20 WC later this year. He'd add even more heft to the pack.

Carnduff was the pick for me. Always seems to be in the right place and taking the right options. Fasogbon - I am just hoping he wasn't fully fit in his one outing as he did a lot of ruck inspecting. Does look very powerful though. England props at this level often seem to be massive

lostinwales wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Aye, McParland looks like he'll be a quality wee player.

Pollock the pick of the lot from what I've seen.

Carnduff, Sodeke and Kpoku were also consistently impressive.

I'm hoping that Fasogbon can feature more in the U20 WC later this year. He'd add even more heft to the pack.

Carnduff was the pick for me. Always seems to be in the right place and taking the right options. Fasogbon - I am just hoping he wasn't fully fit in his one outing as he did a lot of ruck inspecting. Does look very powerful though. England props at this level often seem to be massive

Really can't go wrong with any you guys listed.  A lot of the players in this team look like they have the goods.  And the character to deliver under massive pressure. Pollock is a repeat MOTM.

The pathway at Saints does seem to be picking up steam, and now with McParland and Pollock, Craig Wright, too, we are seeing the results of a lot of work to turn things around.  And at scrum half, 21 year old Jake Garside did fine in Saints exhibition match v. Sale on Friday.  Saints will have Garside along with Mitchell and McParland, and hopefully Tom James around as the old head to steady the ship when needed.

Carnduff MoM for me and Sodeke such an impact off bench.

French backs though show how it should be done!

Carnduff looks a huge prospect.  And very consistent.  

What impressed about Sodeke...was it his defensive line speed etc?

England and Ireland equal on games won, games drawn, points scored, tries scored.
Ireland conceded less with consequent higher Points Difference of +4. In old money, that would have seen Ireland as victors.

One bonus point ended up being the difference between the two teams. Some English rugby journalists in Times, Guardian and Telegraph were bemoaning this week the use of bonus points to determine titles in the Six Nations - wonder if they think differently now?

Pot Hale wrote:England and Ireland equal on games won, games drawn, points scored, tries scored.
Ireland conceded less with consequent higher Points Difference of +4.  In old money, that would have seen Ireland as victors.

One bonus point ended up being the difference between the two teams.  Some English rugby journalists in Times, Guardian and Telegraph were bemoaning this week the use of bonus points to determine titles in the Six Nations - wonder if they think differently now?

I think to be accurate, it was more the scenario if Ireland lost today ( I don't think they will) and England beat France (maybe), that you would be left with Ireland winning three games and England winning four but Ireland earning the Championship due to bonus points.....

Great result last night by the way. Some pretty impressive forwards.

The reality is I just don't care about bonus points in the Six Nations. By the same token, I never liked using points differential to decide things either. Just play the games and in the end it is OK if teams tie at the top of the table.

It is a bit weird that the Ireland under 20s are unbeaten but still lost the tournament. However, by the same token England are good value for the trophy too. Good tournament this year.

England and Ireland had good teams this year. It was certainly a good forward pack from England. Bit awkward how they are forcing Welsh players into signing contracts to play for England though.

mikey_dragon wrote:England and Ireland had good teams this year. It was certainly a good forward pack from England. Bit awkward how they are forcing Welsh players into signing contracts to play for England though.

Here we go again.

Who?

Also worth pointing out that playing for England U20's certainly doesn't stop players going to Wales when they are older.

lostinwales wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:England and Ireland had good teams this year. It was certainly a good forward pack from England. Bit awkward how they are forcing Welsh players into signing contracts to play for England though.

Here we go again.

Who?

Also worth pointing out that playing for England U20's certainly doesn't stop players going to Wales when they are older.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/huge-welsh-rugby-talent-plays-28439077.amp

There’s a few players listed here, some previous names you’ll recognise. There was another article on it and some U18s are switching - the article is more recent but I don’t have that right now.

Agree with your second point, but it’s still a risk we can’t really afford.

The article I referred to above, I'll post below. Apologies for posting so many links to that rag. It's unclear, but the reference to dual qualified players I assume means qualified for both England and Wales. Again, I'm not sure how all of them dual qualify; whether it's via a parent, birthplace, or another rule I'm unaware of when you go and play your uni/age grade rugby elsewhere. I'm not sure if playing for an England uni and club gives a former Wales player automatic qualification for England? Interestingly the WOL goes on about Ioan Jones a lot, but I'm pretty sure he has always been from Gloucester. You see a lot of Welsh around the West country and Liverpool anyway. Again, we see former England U20s 'come back' at senior level, which is good for us. The problems in Welsh Rugby run quite deep and if we're to improve our academies then we need to sort this issue too.

"It's difficult. When you go to an English academy, if you are dual-registered you have to sign a form which says if you get picked in an EPS squad (English Elite Player Squad) then you have to go with them," said Whiffin.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wru-challenge-tactic-being-used-28755925

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/warren-gatland-should-consider-dual-28877853

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/welsh-qualified-players-who-just-28841146

Well its easy.....dont play for England U20 if you want to play for Wales....

I seem to recall a kerfuffle 5 or 6 years ago over a dual-qualified Scot who found he was tied to Wales after playing for their U20s as they'd declared it to be their second representative team (because they'd already dropped their A team at that point)...

It's not unreasonable for a team that has developed a lot of players through its academies only to see them switch to a different team for senior rugby to want to put a cap on it. As Wales themselves decided some time ago.

Geordie wrote:Well its easy.....dont play for England U20 if you want to play for Wales....

It's not that simple a solution, if you read into it. Their schooling and academy contract is on the line. Admittedly, a number of people ballsed up with Feyi-Waboso whilst Borthwick seized a good opportunity, he played a blinder. However, at the senior level we need them to be committed and if not then we don't want them. What's OHC up to now?

Poorfour wrote:I seem to recall a kerfuffle 5 or 6 years ago over a dual-qualified Scot who found he was tied to Wales after playing for their U20s as they'd declared it to be their second representative team (because they'd already dropped their A team at that point)...

It's not unreasonable for a team that has developed a lot of players through its academies only to see them switch to a different team for senior rugby to want to put a cap on it. As Wales themselves decided some time ago.

Steve Shingler. Yes Andy Robinson was scouring the UK for qualified Scots, the WRU kindly pointed out this fact and they went nuts. I couldn't quite understand the reaction at the time, either way, Shingler wasn't good enough for Wales or Scotland and began to struggle at club level before disappearing - I know Gatland still persisted with trying but that's Gatland for you. We've dropped that now anyway, or World Rugby made everyone drop it.

Yes, particularly for England who do develop for themselves and other nations quite often. I highlighted previously that we're struggling at many levels and can't afford to lose players - I was called out so I just thought I'd back that up, hopefully without coming across as sticking the boot into England.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Geordie wrote:Well its easy.....dont play for England U20 if you want to play for Wales....

It's not that simple a solution, if you read into it. Their schooling and academy contract is on the line. Admittedly, a number of people ballsed up with Feyi-Waboso whilst Borthwick seized a good opportunity, he played a blinder. However, at the senior level we need them to be committed and if not then we don't want them. What's OHC up to now?

Yes they ballsed up massively with Waboso...
OHC...maybe practicing his Welsh accent...

it just irritates me...for example players like Ross Moriarty....was never gonna play for England ...hes Welsh through and through...but played for England U20s.... it makes it a bit of a farce.

Geordie wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Geordie wrote:Well its easy.....dont play for England U20 if you want to play for Wales....

It's not that simple a solution, if you read into it. Their schooling and academy contract is on the line. Admittedly, a number of people ballsed up with Feyi-Waboso whilst Borthwick seized a good opportunity, he played a blinder. However, at the senior level we need them to be committed and if not then we don't want them. What's OHC up to now?

Yes they ballsed up massively with Waboso...
OHC...maybe practicing his Welsh accent...

it just irritates me...for example players like Ross Moriarty....was never gonna play for England ...hes Welsh through and through...but played for England U20s.... it makes it a bit of a farce.

Yes that must be annoying from your perspective too, having invested in him and he went on to be a good international but not for England. Gloucester probably got their worth though. There are others like that too. I'm not unhappy about getting the extra players though...

mikey_dragon wrote:

Geordie wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Geordie wrote:Well its easy.....dont play for England U20 if you want to play for Wales....

It's not that simple a solution, if you read into it. Their schooling and academy contract is on the line. Admittedly, a number of people ballsed up with Feyi-Waboso whilst Borthwick seized a good opportunity, he played a blinder. However, at the senior level we need them to be committed and if not then we don't want them. What's OHC up to now?

Yes they ballsed up massively with Waboso...
OHC...maybe practicing his Welsh accent...

it just irritates me...for example players like Ross Moriarty....was never gonna play for England ...hes Welsh through and through...but played for England U20s.... it makes it a bit of a farce.

Yes that must be annoying from your perspective too, having invested in him and he went on to be a good international but not for England. Gloucester probably got their worth though. There are others like that too. I'm not unhappy about getting the extra players though...

I do understand it....we're in the British Isles....most people will have links to more than one country...(im Newcastle born, English Father, Scottish Mother, Rep of Ireland Grandad)

mikey_dragon wrote:

Geordie wrote:Well its easy.....dont play for England U20 if you want to play for Wales....

It's not that simple a solution, if you read into it. Their schooling and academy contract is on the line. Admittedly, a number of people ballsed up with Feyi-Waboso whilst Borthwick seized a good opportunity, he played a blinder. However, at the senior level we need them to be committed and if not then we don't want them. What's OHC up to now? :8)

Not sure that's true. A player who's good enough to be in an academy (and get a scholarship off the back of it) is still good enough if they decline an invitation to the U20 level; there are plenty of players who come through the academies and don't get representative call ups on the way.

But from a international pathway perspective it's pretty reasonable to ask players who are going to have England (rather than a club) invest in them commit to the whole pathway and not just the U20s bit. The RFU have recently started investing much more in the transition from age grade to international, because they've recognised that they need to get more players to make that move successfully. But that investment is wasted if the player can just go off and play for someone else.

Poorfour wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Geordie wrote:Well its easy.....dont play for England U20 if you want to play for Wales....

It's not that simple a solution, if you read into it. Their schooling and academy contract is on the line. Admittedly, a number of people ballsed up with Feyi-Waboso whilst Borthwick seized a good opportunity, he played a blinder. However, at the senior level we need them to be committed and if not then we don't want them. What's OHC up to now?

Not sure that's true. A player who's good enough to be in an academy (and get a scholarship off the back of it) is still good enough if they decline an invitation to the U20 level; there are plenty of players who come through the academies and don't get representative call ups on the way.

But from a international pathway perspective it's pretty reasonable to ask players who are going to have England (rather than a club) invest in them commit to the whole pathway and not just the U20s bit. The RFU have recently started investing much more in the transition from age grade to international, because they've recognised that they need to get more players to make that move successfully. But that investment is wasted if the player can just go off and play for someone else.

I'm not sure if it's true either, but Dick Whiffin among others seem to think it is. I guess they have a choice, and among the examples mentioned by WOL it seems to be a good career choice for them.

Poorfour wrote:I seem to recall a kerfuffle 5 or 6 years ago over a dual-qualified Scot who found he was tied to Wales after playing for their U20s as they'd declared it to be their second representative team (because they'd already dropped their A team at that point)...

It's not unreasonable for a team that has developed a lot of players through its academies only to see them switch to a different team for senior rugby to want to put a cap on it. As Wales themselves decided some time ago.

Wasn't the issue that he could play some U20 games without it tying him to Wales, against teams where they still had an A side (like England at the time) but was tied if he played for the U20s against another nation where their U20s were the second representative team?

dummy_half wrote:

Poorfour wrote:I seem to recall a kerfuffle 5 or 6 years ago over a dual-qualified Scot who found he was tied to Wales after playing for their U20s as they'd declared it to be their second representative team (because they'd already dropped their A team at that point)...

It's not unreasonable for a team that has developed a lot of players through its academies only to see them switch to a different team for senior rugby to want to put a cap on it. As Wales themselves decided some time ago.

Wasn't the issue that he could play some U20 games without it tying him to Wales, against teams where they still had an A side (like England at the time) but was tied if he played for the U20s against another nation where their U20s were the second representative team?

That was it, and I think at the time France U20 were one of those teams, who Shingler featured against.

Wales v England U18 was a good contest. The commentator sounds like he's watching the match on a feed in his bathroom but he is enthusiastic.

Carnduff makes his first Tigers start on Saturday. Having previously made a couple of appearances off the bench (including a game winning turnover Vs Falcons) he's in at 6 for the injured Liebenburg.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Carnduff makes his first Tigers start on Saturday. Having previously made a couple of appearances off the bench (including a game winning turnover Vs Falcons) he's in at 6 for the injured Liebenburg.

We should have a match winning penalty try long before that but we'll leave that one there

Geordie wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Carnduff makes his first Tigers start on Saturday. Having previously made a couple of appearances off the bench (including a game winning turnover Vs Falcons) he's in at 6 for the injured Liebenburg.

We should have a match winning penalty try long before that but we'll leave that one there

Carnduff seems such a good prospect, I am very interested to see how he fares today.

Geordie wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Carnduff makes his first Tigers start on Saturday. Having previously made a couple of appearances off the bench (including a game winning turnover Vs Falcons) he's in at 6 for the injured Liebenburg.

We should have a match winning penalty try long before that but we'll leave that one there

I don't think you ever got close enough. Your penalties were on or around the 22.

Ah there was a few closer than that Sam...

Geordie wrote:Ah there was a few closer than that Sam...

You got closer but all of those scrums you had were around the 22 as that's the advantage was.

Unfortunately for Falcons they couldn't create enough space to let loose any of their back three. Some awkward questions going the way of there attack coach thereafter.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Geordie wrote:Ah there was a few closer than that Sam...

You got closer but all of those scrums you had were around the 22 as that's the advantage was.

Unfortunately for Falcons they couldn't create enough space to let loose any of their back three. Some awkward questions going the way of there attack coach thereafter.

I think that's selective tigers memory Sam but I'll let you have it ..your correct though we should have won that game with our "make a wish budget" team...our efficiency in the 22 was...and has been for so long...awful.

Hopefully it's being worked on for Next season...

Geordie wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Geordie wrote:Ah there was a few closer than that Sam...

You got closer but all of those scrums you had were around the 22 as that's the advantage was.

Unfortunately for Falcons they couldn't create enough space to let loose any of their back three. Some awkward questions going the way of there attack coach thereafter.

I think that's selective tigers memory Sam but I'll let you have it   ..your correct though we should have won that game with our "make a wish budget" team...our efficiency in the 22 was...and has been for so long...awful.

Hopefully it's being worked on for Next season...

Not really because I remember saying the same thing to you at the time.

Anyway Carnduff was a rare bright spark for Tigers. Looked entirely at home at Prem level and put in some thumping hits.