Who should play fly-half for Ireland against Australia?

First topic message reminder :

My vote is for Sexto.

For what it's worth as an "outsider", my opinion is that Sexton has to be the starter.

He has everything Ireland need to open up opportunities in attack, has a reasonable defense and a solid startegic boot when it comes to getting out of jail.

However, when and if Ireland find themselves with a one score or less lead going into the last quarter, you would struggle to find a better man than ROG in test rugby for taking the game to the bank.

The real issue is getting that lead in the first place.

I believe Ireland can top their group but that will ultimately be a question of faith and the rub of the green - both are overdue as far as I'm concerned.

Sexton is our No.1 10. He has what it takes, to help shift Ireland up a notch. But ROG is essential for the RWC. Sexton cant afford to drop his level an iota. And I'd rather ROG to replace Sexton, than any other 10 in the NH. Just sayin. Lets be happy with that.
I reckon if we are ahead vs Oz, with 20 mins to go, he'll be brought on. Who better to finish off a game?

And get rid of the other 2 options man. That's either a bad WUM or a severe lack of knowledge.

P.S. Will Wallace even travel?

Gibson wrote:Sexton is our No.1 10. He has what it takes, to help shift Ireland up a notch. But ROG is essential for the RWC. Sexton cant afford to drop his level an iota. And I'd rather ROG to replace Sexton, than any other 10 in the NH. Just sayin. Lets be happy with that.
I reckon if we are ahead vs Oz, with 20 mins to go, he'll be brought on. Who better to finish off a game?

And get rid of the other 2 options man. That's either a bad WUM or a severe lack of knowledge.

P.S. Will Wallace even travel?

I agree with that actually. ROG is a great player to be able to bring on if we have to close out a game or if Sexton is having a stinker. Other than that I think Sexton offers far more with the ball in hand. As has been pointed out ROG is more than capable of playing a varied game and his distribution is top class. His tactical kicking is peerless.

However he does not have the natural attacking instinct that Sexton does not is he able to pull around and open defences the was Sexton is. As Notch says Sexton is much better suited to the open game we are trying to play.

I think this is harsh on Humphreys actually. It seems his reputation precedes him. Over the past couple of seasons he has produced some of the best performances by an Irish fly half and has probably won more motm awards than any one else. Of course he will not get selected but he is a super talented player who has yet to be given a chance by Ireland.

Wallace too has been a great servant to Irish rugby and has put in some cracking displays, albeit at 12, which seem to go unnoticed by most Irish fans who only seem to remember things he has done wrong. He is not a 10 though.

Morning all,

Many of you know the author of this article from the old 606.
In fact many of you have labelled him an Englishman and wum posting on Irish pages.
This individual has an obsession with hatrerd when it comes to ROG.

So my question is why do you think that is?

Well, Tayto, if I had to guess it might have somethingn to do with ROG usurping a certain Humph senior's position. The hilarious thing about that is that David H made ROG look like Butch James in the tackling stakes.

And Whatever about ROG not have a breaking ability, his distribution and passing skills have unlocked many a defence. IS Sexton better? Yes, more all round skills and defo better attacking the gainline himself as well as being faster. However, Sexton has forced ROG to play a more attacking game and vary what he does and ROG has made more breaks this season and more succesful breaks at that than when he was 24.

However, one area of the game still has him ahead of Sexton and that is tactical kicking. To suggest Sexton (or pretty much any other outhalf you care to mention for that matter) is better than ROG is literally laughable.

Gibson wrote:Sexton is our No.1 10. He has what it takes, to help shift Ireland up a notch. But ROG is essential for the RWC. Sexton cant afford to drop his level an iota. And I'd rather ROG to replace Sexton, than any other 10 in the NH. Just sayin. Lets be happy with that.
I reckon if we are ahead vs Oz, with 20 mins to go, he'll be brought on. Who better to finish off a game?

And get rid of the other 2 options man. That's either a bad WUM or a severe lack of knowledge.

P.S. Will Wallace even travel?

Agree with all points.

Tayto wrote:Morning all,

Many of you know the author of this article from the old 606.
In fact many of you have labelled him an Englishman and wum posting on Irish pages.
This individual has an obsession with hatrerd when it comes to ROG.

So my question is why do you think that is?

hard to say. but reason doesn't seem to come into the equation

Most of you are basing your selection on 'potential' (i.e., 70 mins at home in Lansdowne against England) 'hopefully' Ireland will be able to replicate that again. It should be remembered that Toby Flood & Youngs were playing great rugby up to leaving Twickers and Sexton has won one international game away from home that he has started (against Italy).

Not many of you seem to be confident in Sexton's abilities - if you were, you wouldn't be making comments like 'ROG is the player you need to bring on to close out a game/or if things are not going well'.

I don't really care who starts - but one thing is for sure, I'd be more nervous of our chances in the world cup if O'Gara got injured prior to it than if Sexton did.

Rodders - iHumphs has been playing very well recently, but he is just far too flaky. His recent good form may have a lot to do with playing with Ruan Pienaar than himself. Sticking him in with Boss/Reddan/O'Leary/Stringer might not result with a similar standard of play in the same way that Eoin Reddan's good and very consistent form went downhill when Dallaglio retired.

Sin é wrote:
Rodders - iHumphs has been playing very well recently, but he is just far too flaky. His recent good form may have a lot to do with playing with Ruan Pienaar than himself. Sticking him in with Boss/Reddan/O'Leary/Stringer might not result with a similar standard of play in the same way that Eoin Reddan's good and very consistent form went downhill when Dallaglio retired.

Sorry Sin I don't agree. How many times does a player have to deliver in big games before he stops being "flaky"? I think that is harsh and is a bit of an urban myth, a bit like saying ROG is just a kicking fly half.

Pienaar has helped Humph for sure but he also put in some super performance alongside Boss last season. Credit were credit's due you can't give ruan credit for everything Humphreys does.

n.b. I am not suggesting Humphreys should get selected ahead off Sexton or ROG.

Id have to say Sexton would be my choice for sure, but having said that Rog has given Ireland some of our greatest and most exciting rugby moments for over a decade and I'am delighted, as a leinster and Irish fan, that we still have him.

Feagh McHugh wrote:Id have to say Sexton would be my choice for sure, but having said that Rog has given Ireland some of our greatest and most exciting rugby moments for over a decade and I'am delighted, as a leinster and Irish fan, that we still have him.

Some sense at last

Sin é - You touch on an interesting point in relation to Sexton playing at home and away from home. I haven't seen the stats, which away games did he start in so far?

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Rodders - iHumphs has been playing very well recently, but he is just far too flaky. His recent good form may have a lot to do with playing with Ruan Pienaar than himself. Sticking him in with Boss/Reddan/O'Leary/Stringer might not result with a similar standard of play in the same way that Eoin Reddan's good and very consistent form went downhill when Dallaglio retired.

Sorry Sin I don't agree. How many times does a player have to deliver in big games before he stops being "flaky"? I think that is harsh and is a bit of an urban myth, a bit like saying ROG is just a kicking fly half.

Pienaar has helped Humph for sure but he also put in some super performance alongside Boss last season. Credit were credit's due you can't give ruan credit for everything Humphreys does.

n.b. I am not suggesting Humphreys should get selected ahead off Sexton or ROG.

Maybe 'flaky' isn't the correct word. Inconsistent is probably a better word. I still wonder which Humphreys will turn up when Ulster play, (he is 30 years old) especially if Pienaar is not playing (which hasn't been often since he arrived at Ulster). By the way, I don't see Ulster progressing a whole lot unless they get a more controlling outhalf. Paddy Jackson looks like he could be that player (even though he hasn't had a great world cup - but he is still very young).

I think we have done this to death what concerns me is, who is going to be back up to sexton after the RWC. As much as ROG has been a great servant fot Irish Rugby he will be tailing off in the next couple of years. And we need to be thinking about who is going to be back up. We have been lucky in that ROG had no injuries, but WHAT IF the inevatble happens?
We need to be prepared and I don't think we are.

Humphreys has been neither flaky or inconsistant this year. In the past yes, this year no.

He should go (as 3rd 10) but won't.
I'd leave Wallace behind and take McFadden as 12 cover.
Again won't happen and I suspect "jack of all trades, master of none" Fitzgerald will go instead of McFadden.

Baiscally I expect Wallace and Fitzgerald on the plane but I think it should be Humphreys and McFadden.

I agree Geoff. I'm surprised Keatley hasn't had a mention though.

I don't think Wallace can do a job at fly half, he was pretty poor anytime he's played there recently. He's had a pretty good season at 12 but I'd rather have McFadded or even Spence as cover at centre.

I wouldn't take Fitzgerald at all. He's lost the gas to be as effective out wide as he was and he doesn't have the skills to play elsewhere. McFadden can cover centre and wing and we can take an extra 10.

What odds on Ian Humphreys to finish career uncapped? Keatley and Sexton to share the spoils at 10.

I can see Keatley and Humphreys being passed by some of the younger generation - Jackson etc

Sexton for the next few years by which time these lads could be ready.

Who should be back up fly half post WC though? My own feeling is that it should be Humpreys or Keatley if they are playing well enough.

ROG is 34 and we need to prepare for the future. I think ROG might still have a role around the squad but I'd like to see him phased out of the squad really after the WC.

Tayto wrote:Morning all,

Many of you know the author of this article from the old 606.
In fact many of you have labelled him an Englishman and wum posting on Irish pages.
This individual has an obsession with hatrerd when it comes to ROG.

So my question is why do you think that is?

Dont worry- he WUMs about other things too irish related- not just ROG. He is an English wind up merchant. But I understand why he prefers to talk about irish rugby...

Funny how he never comes back when he is outed eh.

red_stag wrote:What odds on Ian Humphreys to finish career uncapped? Keatley and Sexton to share the spoils at 10.

Probably will, yes. Unless there is a major injury to one of ROG or Sexton, in which case he should go ahead of Keatley. Keatley hasn't done anything this season really.

Very simply we can't afford to give the Aussies front or quick ball foot ball. If Healy looses out in a scrum and an Aussie backrow runs over rog (who may somehow make the tackle) the space the Aussies will get will be frightening. For all your examples of rog defending well sin, there are far more where he has not. See YouTube. Also note that the tackles rog makes do tend to concede ground and quick ball.

On top of that, regardless of how this Irish team plays the Aussies need to be starved of ball. They are not as mentally tough as otherteams and will become frustrated without the ball. Sin you have mentioned times where rog has thrown dummies or made a break or used cross field kicks. These are moments of magic however there are far more examples or rog sitting to deep not threatening the line and the ball being played sideways across the park. The obvious exception being the magners final but the more common/telling example can be seen in the majority of the 10/11 season.

To win the game Ireland need to keep the ball in close off set piece tying up pocock in a set formation where two Irish players will know to get to the break down at the same time as his negating his influence in the second ruck. Due to the Irish knowing where the first attack will focus they should be able outnumber pocock. The ball needs to be played quickly to sexton feeding a strong direct runner to attack cooper who will be drifting out and calling for men. This should suck in more defenders. Leaving sexton to use men out wide or kick behind the wingers who now would have to join the line.

The key is to hold onto the ball.

In defense the economy of rucking is crucial. The fewer players Ireland need to put into rucks to slow Aussie ball the better while Denying the quick ball as much as possible. Pillars need to watch ginea and blind side wingers. Shooters should be used but sparingly and only by clever defenders ie.darcy,bod,heaslip,Wallace. If this plan is used too often, wide Aussie players will cut inside, inside Aussie players will get deeper and try and play in Beale coming at pace, chip kicks will be employed, or the bend in the banana defence will be exploited. The Aussie attack will adapt quickly so the shooter defense must be used not randomly but sparingly.

Sin you say you never said rog should start and you are right you haven't and he really shouldn't. This game does not suit his skill set, s.Africa, pumas and England are teams where he would be more effective. We all know
Rog is a great athlete and an even better sports 'thinker' so please stop defending him if you don't think he should start.

He did brilliantly against Leinster but not throughout the Course of 10/11 in the hcup or ML

I agree with a lot of that Pete. I think your assessment of ROG is a tad harsh, I think he played very well for a lot of last season, but generally you are spot on there.

Ah Pete, he can defend him and also think he shouldn't start the match. Some of the stuff written about ROG (indeed, insert player x's name here) is way OTT. He has 100+ caps, three time Lions Tourist, 2 HC medals, a Grand Slam and 1000+ International points and 16 tries too, which if memory serves is the second most number of tries for any 1000+ points scorer, only Carter is ahead of him. he is palpably nowhere near as effective a defender as Wilko or James or Carter but he never shirks a tackle or his defensive responsibilty.

He arguably has the best tactical kicking game in the world never mind this island so any words to the contray need to be debunked; same goes for suggesting that Sexton cant do it either.

I voted for Sexton to start said match, he is the best all round 10 and offers more in attack and defence given the type of game we are trying to play. But anyone suggesting any other IQ outhalf, be it iHumph, Keatley or PWallace is, imho, WAY off the mark.

You saw the England game, Sexton ran the show, helped build the lead and then when England were chasing the game, two sexy kicks by ROG had them pinne din the 22. And as Sexton said himself that day, the MoM award he won was for both of them. That's where we are now, two excellent and contrasting players one with youth and talent the other with f*ck loads of experience in knowing how to win and both really enjoying their rugby.

I believe we are actually the envy of Int Rugby in terms of depth and options at 10. Take NZ, they have carter arguably the best of all time and his back up is Stephen Donald, who a bit like Charlie Hodgeson for Engalnd, has never made the step up to Int Rugby from S15.

Oz have the mercurial Cooper, who when hot is white hot and audacious and perfect for unleashing his outrgeously talented outside backs, but when off form is, to say the least, a liability. His back up is then either Giteau who is a thinking and kicking 12 that can play 10 not the other way around or Berrick Barnes, who while effective in the position is suffering from migrane and could well be out of the RWC.

England are closest to us in terms of balance with Flood having had a good season (and he'll have learend a boat load in Lansdowne in march) and Wilko in his best form post 2003.

France, well, if Trnh Duc is there then they'll have direction and some flair, but with Lievermont I am not making any predictions. There are a number of talented French 10's but can anyone say what their best combo is? Im actually asking that for real.

Wales. I dont know what Gatland is thinking in the sense that have they defo settled on Jones as starter and Hook as alt with A.N Other coming off the bench to fill a diffeent outside back positon?!

Scotland, Jackson could be good but he is probably a few games shy for this RWC (watch now as he sets the whole comp alight and wins games by hiself) Dan parks, nuch maligned and a lot of it is fair but he has a tactical brain at least and that is uber important in cup rugby.

South Africa; Steyn can and will kick anything, knows how to exploit his huge pack and is generally sound in all areas. But who backs him up? Is it James (who was sinbinned AGAIn for another savage tackle at the weekend) or the likes or a returning Pinaar (or will he only be seen as a SH)

So all in all, from where we were a couple of seasons ago, we are now arguably the best placed team in that position in world rugby. *

*Injuries notwithstanding. Is praying to the Injury & Form Gods that 6 key Irish players remain fit til end November 2011 (at least!) Sexton, ROG, BOD, POC, Ross & Earls. We'll be hard pushed to get anywhere without any of those 6 players.

debaters1 wrote:
I voted for Sexton to start said match, he is the best all round 10 and offers more in attack and defence given the type of game we are trying to play. But anyone suggesting any other IQ outhalf, be it iHumph, Keatley or PWallace is, imho, WAY off the mark.

To be fair debators I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting any of the above should start ahead of Sexton or ROG. The votes might suggest otherwise but I doubt that is anyone's serious view. A lot of the stuff written about ROG is nonsence but I think the overwhelming view seems to be that people see Sexton as the man to start at 10.

"England are closest to us in terms of balance with Flood having had a good season (and he'll have learend a boat load in Lansdowne in march) and Wilko in his best form post 2003."

Flood had an absolutely shocking second half to the season, I would say he's had a poor season, as has his partner Ben Youngs.

Is Danny Care and Jonny Wilkinson arguably better halfback pairing?

I would suggest it is, I would usually take Care over Youngs anyway, much of Youngs place is down to his partnership with Flood at Tigers. Flood is in poor form so despite his limited game plan I might take Wilkinson over Flood. Would definately be taking Care over Young despite Youngs relationship with Flood.

Fair enough, but I dont think Youngs & Flood can have that poor a post xmas season given that Leicester made the Jeff Final and England were aiming for a Grand Slam. Yes, Flood had a bad game in Dublin and Youngs wasn't much better but England didn't lose that match due to a poor perfrormance by their 10, they lost the game as their pack was dominated in pretty much every facet of the game.

I confess i did NOT see the Jeff Final, but from what i have gathered Saracens won it rather than Leicester (or Flood) losing it because of his missed missed kicks. Doubtless people will argue that point all day long.

Some of the posts here are just daft. ROG has outplayed Sexton twice in the last 2 months when they have gone head to head. Sexton will play and rightly so but some of the ignorant comments here are befitting of Irish rugby supporters.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Sin é - You touch on an interesting point in relation to Sexton playing at home and away from home. I haven't seen the stats, which away games did he start in so far?

Twickenham (not a good day for him - ROG rescued the match)
Australia (Brisbane)
Italy (Rome)
He also started against the Maori in NZ (Ireland lost).

He didn't start too many games. Started 12, Sub 4. = 16 games. 5 were away from home. Subbed away were: 4 (France, New Zealand, Scotland & Wales).

Compare his experience to Toby Flood's - about 10 caps at centre and 30 caps at FH for England.

I heard Sexton also played a bad game under 12s once... and wait for this..... it was sunny that day!

Is it sunny in Nz in Sept?

Feagh McHugh wrote:I heard Sexton also played a bad game under 12s once... and wait for this..... it was sunny that day!

Is it sunny in Nz in Sept?

As for halfback-pairings... Sexton and Reddan have put Youngs and Flood in their place - twice this season. In the 6-N and in the HC. I think that particular "debate" is over. For now.

I'd also alter a previous posters' comment, that Care with Flood(and not JW), would offer England more. Care is a more natural and aggressive SH than Youngs and would improve Flood's ability to control a game, no-end. He would have more time and space to do so, imo.