Academy Efficiency

Following the nightmare against the Baby Blacks I thought I'd take a look at the players selected for the squad by Gatland who've made it into the initial 45 man squad.

I've only taken those who are actual academy products, not players who were around before the regions came into existance, and it makes for interesting reading.

Blues......................5 players
Dragons..................4 players
Ospreys..................8 players
Scarlets..................8 players

The regions and their academies were set up in 2003, and so far have produced only 25 players who Warren Gatland deems worthy of a call up. The academies are costing both the WRU and the regions a lot of money to run, but as yet are hardly setting the world alight with the overall quality produced, or even the quantity.
Joe Lydon, who has been in position now for over a year, seems to have let things drift, and then to compound matters BLAMED the regions for not giving youngsters enough of a chance, wrongly citing the example of the Baby Blacks.
In an ideal world I would expect to see 40/50 players capable of stepping into the squad who had come through the academies, but we all know that isn't the case.

Is anyone to blame? Do other countries do it better?

Or is it that we're just not as good at this game of rugby as we'd like to think we are?

Ireland are doing a good job at the minute but still could do better. Musnter can't produce props or centres, Leinster can't do locks or hookers etc.

Overall though its doing a top job.

It's because they have nowhere to play. It's one thing playing in the welsh prem and another thing entirely playing in the JWC. The academy are obviously producing talented players but talent without direction is a waste.

I like the idea of the regions having A teams. I don't understand why this hasn't been brought in yet as all of the regions could put out an A team which the welsh prem could feed into. this would mean a regular supply of talented, match fit players who are hungry and striving to break into the first team.

It worrying to me as a Blues fan how slowly the youngster are being introduced, although it does have benefits, as only 1/2 academy players are introduced into the proper 1st/2nd team every year they have plenty of time to learn from those around them and train - which is why they usually become very good players -J.Robert, L.Halfpenny, B.Davies, S.Warburton etc.

Although, a bit of good news for once,

http://www.cardiffblues.com/news/5183.php

wales606
I understand your frustration, but have to point out the Halfpenny was an Ospreys product.
Also I can't accept that "protecting" players makes them better. The Ospreys have been down this road and it's not working. Follow the Scarlets example, they find them, coach them and then sink or swim them, if they are good enough they'll make Gatlands squad. That they are means that the Scarlets blueprint works.
Clearly neither the blues or the Ospreys are.

ospreylian,

I know he was an Ospreys academy player (who was kicked out for being to small - I hope whoever decided that was fired by Shane ) - but he then went to the Blues academy and was brought through in the same way,

Ospreys cant take all the credit - after all, he would just be warming the bench for Tommy Bowe now otherwise - and that would only be if Walker and Fussell were injured!

Just sayin....

wales606

OK let's leave it there then

The purpose of this thread is to debate the failings of our academies, yes there have been some notable successes, but in a desert of medoicrity that's always going to be the case, I'm looking for more.
As an Ospreys supporter I'm not at all happy, are you as a Blues fan happy that your team produced 4/5?

No not really, but to be fair, they have been improving year on year,

For some reason the Blues academy player usually make up the bulk of the U20s team (and the captain always seem to be a Blue), but few make it through to the senior side.

Still I am optimistic (even though there are no talented 10s coming through, still!)

Next year look out for,

Owen Williams (centre to take Shanks place in the squad)

Harry Robinson (18 and already 4/5th choice winger and likely to get a lot of gametime next season - already has played in the ML)

McCauley Cook - (With Davies away and Tito and Jones ageing I expect that Dai will be looking for someone to bring in, although he may stick with Griffiths for another year)

There will probably be another SH and Backrow to come in from somewhere too, probably the Ponty SH who has signed to the academy.

That will probably be this years set of U20s that get some ML gametime this year.

I thought the academies started in 2005, 2 years after the regions? I'm pretty sure they didn't start at the same time. If it was 2005 then players who have had a full academy experience I.e. From 16 will only be 22 now. We're perhaps only seeing the first wave coming through now, and at 22 it's probably only backs who are mature enough physically to impact the national teams. Forwards tend to come through in their mid to late 20s, unless you're a freak like Faletau! I think the academies therefore need just a few more years til we see the next wave to compliment this wave of youngsters and the squad depth increases.

At least the south have a proper acadamey, damn RGC falling into debt and making a hash out of it, at u16 they have lost about 5 potential acadamey players to Widness rugby league and 2 to leciester.

Sorry welshy824 not aware of the happenings at RGC1404, it all went quiet down this way on them, what is the story there?
Griff........you may be right about your region but the Ospreys started their academy right at the start, hence players like Halfpenny, AWJ and Hook have all Still doesn't hide the fact that the regions are generally performing quite poorly.

I have to agree with Griff here, the accademys are starting to churn out players and there are still some Lions Class players in the national setup from pre-regional days who are simply amongst hte best in the NH in their positon, so you can't expect accademy boys to set up and take their shirts.

rgc last i heard after a bit of research have been taken over by the WRU and have been renamed to something else, apart from that i dont know, its gone quite up here aswel

Maybe they had their own but this link suggests that it was from 2005 that WRU essentially took ownership. Players who were 18 would have entered but I think we're still only seeing the first wave coming through who've had the full WRU treatment (sounds painful!) in terms of national, standardised conditioning programmes, nutrition, etc. from 16.

http://www.wru.co.uk/13679.php

And here's a link to the Ospreys in 2005 announcing the 4 regional academies and advertising for coaches:

http://www.ospreysrugby.com/news/1321.php

And here, but it is the western fail!

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2007/11/25/welsh-academies-hooking-new-talent-91466-20156588/

ScarletSpiderman wrote:there are still some Lions Class players in the national setup from pre-regional days who are simply amongst hte best in the NH in their positon, so you can't expect accademy boys to set up and take their shirts.

To be honest thats what they need to do. The academy boys need to do it. Look at Felix Jones or Fergus McFadden or Sean O'Brien bursting onto the scene. In fact look at the Welsh young guns. They are more than capable of doing it.

They will and they are. Faletau may have taken the 8 shirt from Ryan Jones, Hook may have taken over from Stephen Jones, Warburton from Martyn Williams, etc. All academy players all ousting Lions.

Stag - I appreciate that you can do that in some positons, like Warburton taking over the reigns instead of Williams. But it is not always possible, after all in Ireland who forcing BOD (realistically?), after all he is still the first name on the team sheet. The same as in Wales we do have Mitchel, Andrews and Gardener all progressing nicely at tighthead but they won't realistically displace Adam Jones.

If you really want to see a full 22/23 man match day squad full of accademy players watch the junior world cup.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Stag - I appreciate that you can do that in some positons, like Warburton taking over the reigns instead of Williams. But it is not always possible, after all in Ireland who forcing BOD (realistically?), after all he is still the first name on the team sheet. The same as in Wales we do have Mitchel, Andrews and Gardener all progressing nicely at tighthead but they won't realistically displace Adam Jones.

If you really want to see a full 22/23 man match day squad full of accademy players watch the junior world cup.

Oh of course but in reality Wales is doing fine. Lots of young players in the team.

I'm going to approach this from the other side of the argument.
Iv'e seen players at the Ospreys in recent years pushed too hard too soon and seen them suffer as a result.
Dan Biggar is only 21 yes people forget that as he's been around for 3 seasons. He first got capped in 2008. Bringing players on has nothing to do with age. Robert Howley for example didn't really do much until he was 25 and didn't win his first Welsh cap until he was 26, yet despite this he went on several Lions tours, won 59 caps and was a Welsh captain.
The worst thing you can do is expose players to early to rugby because a players body can only last so long and the earlier you play them to quicker they wear out.
Neil Jenkins and Scott Gibbs were both capped at 19 yet by 30 years of age both players bodies were in pieces, and both retires very early.
Scott Quinell was another who came in at 21 and by 30 he was worn out!
A normal player will last 8-10 years if your lucky, so capping them between 22-26 is generally the best way to go.
Besides giving players to much, too soon can result in them thinking they have made it and they stop working hard. How often do we see a young player come through then drift away to obscurity because they haven't worked hard enough to reach the skill levels required.

Secondly there is nothing wrong with what Welsh regions are doing, there are probably 2 teams worth of young Welsh players across the regions behind developed at the moment. I posted a list of young players on another thread, here you can see who is being brought into first team rugby at the regions.


Ospreys:
Ryan Bevington / Prop / 22
Rhys Webb / Scrum Half / 22
Dan Biggar / Fly Half / 21
Matthew Morgan / Fly Half / 19
Gareth Owen / Utility Back / 22
Kristian Phillips / Wing / 20
Tom Prydie / Wing / 19
Morgan Allen / No8 / 21
Justin Tipuric / Openside / 20
Hanno Dirksen / Wing / 19

Cardiff:
Scott Andrews / Prop / 21
Sam Warburton / Openside / 22
Leigh Halfpenny / Wing / 22
Josh Navidi / Flanker / 20
Dan Fish / Full Back / 20
Jamie roberts / Centre / 23
Lloyd Williams / Scrum Half / 21
Reuben Tucker / Flanker / 18
Harry Robinson / Wing / 18
Maucaley Cook / Lock / 19

Scarlets:
Lou Reed / Lock / Scarlets / 23
Scott Williams / Centre / 20
Josh Turnbull / Flanker / 23
Rhys Priestland / Fly Hlaf / Full Back / 23
Tavis Knoyle / Scrum Half / 23
George North / Wing, Centre / 19
Jonathan Davies / Centre / 23
Steven Shingler / Fly Half / 19

Dragons:
Toby Faletau / Back Row / 20
Dan Lydiate / Blindside / 22
Steffan Jones / Fly Half, Full Back / 20
Jason Tovey / Fly Half / 22
James Leadbeater / Scrum Half / 22

IMO the likes of Jenkins, Quinnell and Gibbs are completely irrelevant. Player Welfare was non existent back then.

red_stag wrote:IMO the likes of Jenkins, Quinnell and Gibbs are completely irrelevant. Player Welfare was non existent back then.

Quinell and Gibbs played professionally in Rugby League so were looked after and knew how to look after themselves far better than many of the amateur players they played with when Union went professional, they had an advantage.

At the Scarlets the likes of Simon Gardener, Nick Reynolds, Aaron Shingler and Rhodri Jones have had a fair bit of full team action this past season.

Yes but they still would have not had the same levels of medical advice and union run player systems that are in place. I don't know Alyn things the condition of players from 20 years ago isn't something I would see as a major factor.

"Reuben Tucker / Flanker / 18"

Really? I hadnt heard of him - Ill have to look out next season. Thanks/

red_stag wrote:Yes but they still would have not had the same levels of medical advice and union run player systems that are in place. I don't know Alyn things the condition of players from 20 years ago isn't something I would see as a major factor.

Surely that's my argument?
Modern players are bigger, stronger, faster and more physical than a few years ago, the muscles may be bigger but the bones still take the damage!
Remember these players bodies need to last 90 years not just for their playing careers!

wales606 wrote:"Reuben Tucker / Flanker / 18"

Really? I hadnt heard of him - Ill have to look out next season. Thanks/

I've been told they have high hopes for him, someone to keep an eye on. You might see him next season as Martyn williams and Sam Warburton will be at the World Cup. By all accounts he's played 20+ games for Glamorgan Wanderers this season, and done brilliantly.

Alyn as I read it your argument is that players who come onto the scene early as less likely to stay fit. You give Quinnell, Jenkins and Gibbs as examples. I say that modern Unions are more health conscious that in the past and the players are likely to received more rotation and better medical care.

looking at the welsh squad you do forgot how young some of these players are. i mean yes people get on Biggars back but he has so much time to grow, in reality the current welsh squad is a good blend of youth and expereince