England Squad Update (Players released)

First topic message reminder :

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/sports/other/126508508.html

It has been announced that the following players have been released:

Joe Worsley, George Chuter, Thomas Waldron, David Strettle and James Simpson-Daniel.

So the picture becomes a bit clearer. The three hookers going will be Steve Thompson, Dylan Hartley and Lee Mears.

You missed "nationality" from that list, otherwise, agree fully.

propdavid london why do you and others drone on about experience when youngsters like Sharples and Tuilagi are picked. These two have had one good season in the AP. You talk rubbish sorry. Alex Goode has been in two AP finals and won one.

You don't hear about journeyman like Fourie,Waldrom or Hape needing experience to be fast tracked into the England squad despite very little AP experience.

Robbo the foreign journeyman has had one average season. Not deemed good enough to start in the big matches.

All the players I mention like Goode,Brown,Abendanon, Allen and Barritt have had at least two good seasons in the AP. It makes all the difference.

Hammerofthunor no you wouldn't if you just pick in a logical manner.

Brad Barritt has had two good seasons actually with no recognition for his efforts whereas 19 year olds and foreign journeyman are lauded as English heroes.

Funny that people always talk about Saracens players needing experience despite them being involved in two AP finals, winning one.

Whereas Manu's experience in big matches consists of being blown away by a 21 year old Irishman and clotheslining Ashton then punching him 3 times. Getting a ban for the AP final and making sure his team lacked a potential cutting edge.


If you disagree fair enough. With so many England fans praising mediocre players it is no surprise England will continue to be mediocre.


Let's be honest England had an easy ride in the 6 nations. Played quite well against Wales but the matches at home were foregone conclusions.

TheGreyGhost wrote:You missed "nationality" from that list, otherwise, agree fully.

No I didn't. I assumed that we were talking about eligible players. Any England selector who picks players based on his own definitions of 'English' should be sacked. That road leads to bigotry. I'd rather leave it up the internationally decided criteria.

I agree with hammerofthunor. If the "foreigners" are actually the best in their position they should be picked. E.g. Flutey in 2009, not 2011!

Unfortunately none are any good. All hugely overrated by 606ers,MJ and his cronies.

The likes of Payne,Shaw and Worsley are past their sell by date too despite being actually English.

Armitage should be given the boot too but he has the so called experience that MJ and 606ers love!

Personally would have picked Borthwick instead of Botha as he actually has the experience and form. People's double standards are funny.

beshocked wrote:

Whereas Manu's experience in big matches consists of being blown away by a 21 year old Irishman and clotheslining Ashton then punching him 3 times. Getting a ban for the AP final and making sure his team lacked a potential cutting edge.

Fair enough with the Ashton comment, but when was he blown away by a 21 year old irishman?

I think what put himself out there as a potential england player was his performance against Leinster when he was not overwhelmed by BOD and put in a good performance.

He's talking about the Saxons against the Wolfhound and the Irish INSIDE centre.

He also still doesn't seemed to have grasped the point squad selection isn't simple and just because one player is selected for reasons x, y and z doesn't mean those reasons apply to another player (in another position).

Manu's boxing coach I am referring to this.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/irish/9383810.stm

Nevin Spence is the 21 year old Irishman I am talking about. He was 20 at the time of the match.

Hammerofthunor I think it is really simple actually.

You don't pick two woefully out of form players who haven't rediscovered their 2009 form. Would prefer Brown or Goode over Armitage and Barritt or Allen over Flutey.

3 of the England players picked have had bans fairly recently. No prizes for guessing their names.

If Foden is injured we have to rely on a woefully out of form full back or hope Cueto can cover sufficiently.

What has Flutey done in the last 2 years to warrant selection?

Strangely enough I like Manu Tuilagi and Charlie Sharples but just get really frustated when a certain team's brightest England prospects get overlooked for various ludicrous reasons like not experienced enough, not in good enough form, not being able to cover more than one position, too young.

It would be in England's interest to pick them. Really frustating as I want England to do well but if they don't pick these players how can I actually get behind England and MJ?

Squad consistency is important. Johnson obviously feels the return will be better by getting Flutey into form than it will be to install a new face (Barritt) into the England set-up, introduce him to all the guys, teach them to play how he wants his inside centre to play and teach the players around him what to expect from Barritt.

For players like Waldrom, Tuilagi and Sharples, who have been brought in to the England squad at this late stage, Martin Johnson has obviously seen a spark of something, something that can improve the England team. Waldrom offered us a different type of player at 8 (where we only have one option in Easter) and a potentially fierce impact sub, Tuilagi offers us a potential cutting edge at 13 (another position where we have only one option in Tindall and another potentially fierce impact sub) and Sharples (who I haven't seen much of, truth be told) is a potent finisher with lightning pace.

Personally, I feel Flutey of 2009 is a better player and offers more than I have ever seen from Barritt, and if Martin Johnson can get Flutey back into that form, he'll slot straight back in between Flood and Tindall (as he played in 2009). However, this time that midfield will be surrounded by a stronger team.

robbo277 it's 2011! How many times do I need to say it? 2009 Flutey is not around, sorry to say. The overrated 2011 Flutey is around though. A player who has been plying his trade for two sides in appalling form whilst also being injured.

There is no guarantee Flutey will rediscover his from. I really hate it when players are undeservedly brought back or fast tracked into the England squad.

True Waldrom and Tuilagi are Tigers so fair play.

Would you pick Matthew Tait at outside centre?

Shame the overrated Flutey will be in the England squad because I would have relished seeing Barritt smash the overrated Flutey into the turf at the doubleheader.

Barritt easily outplayed the overrated Hape in their latest encounter too.

2011 Flutey would be taken apart by Brad Barritt.

Okay, you've just said yourself, Flutey has spent the last two years injured and playing for two sides in appalling form...

But the last time he was fully fit he was brilliant. He was the best England inside centre since Greenwood. He got called up to the Lions tour. Then injuries went against him, he came back into rubbish sides playing poor rugby, he was shunted to 10, etc.

What Martin Johnson will be thinking is if Flutey is physically fit, Johnson can get him back into form. Johnson can give him better coaching than he got at Brive or Wasps, he can play with better players than he was with at Brive or Wasps and he can look to get back to that form. It is a gamble by Johnson, but no bigger a gamble than bringing in an unproven inside centre.

As I said, I'd hedge. I'd have Hape (the consistent selection) and then hedge my bets. Bring in Flutey and Allen, a tried-and-tested option and a form option. One of the three would have dropped out of the squad now and I'd look at giving two of them game time. Martin Johnson's mistake in my opinion wasn't picking Hape and Flutey, it was picking just 2 dedicated inside centres.

Would I pick Mathew Tait at outside centre? No. I don't think it's his strongest position. Not sure what that has to do with this debate though.

beshocked wrote:robbo277 it's 2011! How many times do I need to say it? 2009 Flutey is not around, sorry to say. The overrated 2011 Flutey is around though. A player who has been plying his trade for two sides in appalling form whilst also being injured.

There is no guarantee Flutey will rediscover his from. I really hate it when players are undeservedly brought back or fast tracked into the England squad.

True Waldrom and Tuilagi are Tigers so fair play.

Would you pick Matthew Tait at outside centre?

Shame the overrated Flutey will be in the England squad because I would have relished seeing Barritt smash the overrated Flutey into the turf at the doubleheader.

Barritt easily outplayed the overrated Hape in their latest encounter too.

2011 Flutey would be taken apart by Brad Barritt.

But neither Barritt or Flutey have played at this level in 2011? So either of them could be rudey poo, or either off them could be brilliant. There both unproven in 2011 (at this level) except Flutey has been in the environment before so i don't think it's a straight cut decision as your making it out to be.

So, No mention of Shaw being dropped from the squad.

I do hope that Johnso on is not relying on Tindall this week , not after that party any way.

I would of liked to have seen Goode and Barrit get a chance in these warm up games.

But i do have faith in MJ to pick the best team possible for these 3 warm up games.

I don't really buy into this 'form' argument. It's been around 3/4 months since the end of the AP - I'm not entirely sure any form would be translated to these internationals.

Perhaps some players will have more confidence coming off the back of a successful AP, but that's why we have two easy fixtures against Wales - to boost players confidence.

Heres a good article about it, Sharples sounds very very promising. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/8675984/Rugby-World-Cup-2011-England-manager-Martin-Johnson-impressed-by-rookies-Manu-Tuilagi-and-Charlie-Sharples.html

Can you blame MJ for releasing any of those players? Waldron looks as unlike an international number 8 as I have seen for a long time. He looks like he works in Pizza Hut and takes his work home with him.
That said, i am envious of England's depth at wing if JS-D can be deemed unnecessary

MJ is in a long training camp with the players. He will pick the final 30 based on a combination of previous achievements, balance of the squad and current (e.g. the form they've shown in training and in the up-coming games). Overall the squad isn't bad, and MJ as the man in charge has the right to make some selection calls (based on much better information than anyone here has).

I think Sharples is a very exciting prospect - he's a potentially top class fullback, and in the meantime will surely replace Cueto after the WC. Tuilagi is at least as exciting, and they had one important advantage over Saracens backs which is they play for sides who give them the opportunity to show what they can do in attack. Barritt has shown very little for example, where-as if Flutey is playing well (and we'll see over the next few weeks) then he's potentially a player who can transform England into a genuinely good side.

Armitage is fortunate to be in the squad, but at his best he is the second best FB available and I doubt he will let anyone down if he has to start at FB for England this autumn. No.8 remains a problem position, but hopefully Fearns will make a case and Haskell will specialise there in future. Maybe even Jackson Wray will get some game time.

screamingaddabs wrote:I keep hearing Brown mentioned every now and then. I hear he went to Margot Wells to learn to not be a slow sack of sh1$*. Is he actually vaguely fast enough for international level now? Previously I thought he was way too slow to ever make it at the highest level.

He's improved a lot, got a good step now and spent all of last season running the ball back, beating at least one defender most of the time. His left boot is huge, tackling has been solid, and he's been brilliant on the floor, making plenty of important turnovers.

That said, I still wouldn't have picked him in the WC squad. Autumn internationals maybe, but not WC. You can look good in the AP by doing all aspects of your position to a good level, but you need to do something exceptionally well to make an impact in internationals.

screamingaddabs wrote:I keep hearing Brown mentioned every now and then. I hear he went to Margot Wells to learn to not be a slow sack of sh1$*. Is he actually vaguely fast enough for international level now? Previously I thought he was way too slow to ever make it at the highest level.

Have you even watched him this season?!! In my opinion he was the form fullback in the premiership, and, yes, he DEFINITELY is fast enough. Pretty much guaranteed to beat at least the first defender and shows a lot of pace when given half a chance. Don't know what his stats were this year, but they have to be up there.

He's also super safe under the high ball and defends confidently and aggressively. Immeasurably better than Armitage, and should at least have been included in the preliminary squad in his stead. Having said that, despite his admirable commitment last season to controling his anger management issues, I have heard that he is a rather unlikeable individual (may be totally untrue), and this may have damaged his chances.

I think Johnson (like Woodward before him) puts a lot of stock in character. You don't want "a bad egg" in the group, especially when going on a long tour. NZ 2008 may have blotted his copybook as well.

Whereas Manu's experience in big matches consists of being blown away by a 21 year old Irishman and clotheslining Ashton then punching him 3 times. Getting a ban for the AP final and making sure his team lacked a potential cutting edge.

How is a Saxons 6N game a 'big match'? It was a run out for each countries promising youngsters and on a miserable day a Ravenhill the English didn't front up and were collectively beaten. In the big matches Manu has played in he has flourished including scoring from the half way line for an internationally diminished Tigers team against the eventual leage winners. Outshining BOD in Dublin and smashing holes in the Saints defence before 30 seconds of maddness that was blown out of preportion by the media.

I keep hearing Brown mentioned every now and then. I hear he went to Margot Wells to learn to not be a slow sack of sh1$*. Is he actually vaguely fast enough for international level now? Previously I thought he was way too slow to ever make it at the highest level.

Has probabley got just enough speed to make it, retains the howitzer of a left boot but his strength means he is hard to bring down and a real road block in defence.

Yes robbo that's my point. By your logic we should pick Matthew Tait at outside centre for the same reasons! If Gavin Henson was English I presume you would pick him too. Don't you remember his incredible tackle on an 18 year old?! Oh sorry I forgot that kick too. If you wouldn't you are a bit of a hypocrite.

Nathan how can Barritt play at international level if he is constantly overlooked? He needs to be given the opportunity to show what he can do yet MJ is reluctant to do so. Flutey has barely played any rugby for 2 years. Barritt has helped his side win the AP THIS YEAR.

You might say playing Barritt is a risk but is it anymore than picking a 19 year old at outside centre and 21 year old on the wing whilst both have only had one good season in the AP? No. I would pick them all.

I personally think picking Flutey is a huge gamble which none of you seem to be understanding. Is it bigger than bringing in an in form centre? Yes. You keep saying if Flutey regains his form he'll be amazing etc. What's the guarantee he will? None. MJ is flipping a coin - if he is doing that he might as well go for a younger more English option.

It doesn't help matters that Riki Flutey is a 31 year old New Zealander with no English family. You might say Barritt isn't English but he has an English mother so that's good enough for me.


DaveM have you ever watched Saracens play? You and others seem to believe attack is the most important thing. If it was then Saracens wouldn't have won the AP.

Tacklebag. That's a load of rubbish. The likes of Youngs,Cole,Foden,Ashton all got picked because of their AP form.

I personally think it is stupid to pick someone based on their form 2 years ago. Evidently many of you don't agree. Will MJ's gamble succeed? We'll have to wait and see.

Robbo you mean "a bad egg" like Armitage,Cueto and Tuilagi who have all picked up bans recently?

Strettle and JSD have been dropped despite being in excellent form. I feel sympathy for them. The rest deserved the chop.

Why are some players allowed to skip the queue whereas others have to work much harder to get called up for England?

I actually hope Flutey crashes and burns. He doesn't deserve his call up so I can't get behind him personally.

Countnefarious wrote:

screamingaddabs wrote:I keep hearing Brown mentioned every now and then. I hear he went to Margot Wells to learn to not be a slow sack of sh1$*. Is he actually vaguely fast enough for international level now? Previously I thought he was way too slow to ever make it at the highest level.

Have you even watched him this season?!! In my opinion he was the form fullback in the premiership, and, yes, he DEFINITELY is fast enough. Pretty much guaranteed to beat at least the first defender and shows a lot of pace when given half a chance. Don't know what his stats were this year, but they have to be up there.

He's also super safe under the high ball and defends confidently and aggressively. Immeasurably better than Armitage, and should at least have been included in the preliminary squad in his stead. Having said that, despite his admirable commitment last season to controling his anger management issues, I have heard that he is a rather unlikeable individual (may be totally untrue), and this may have damaged his chances.

(All adding of bold text mine)

Have I even watched him this season? No. Hence my questioning whether he was any better. Note the word previously also. I did NOT say he was slow now, I asked if he had become any better, because when I last paid him any attention (when he got called up for England) he was painfully slow. Having heard the rumour that he went to see Margot Wells about this then I was wondering if he had improved.

[quote="formerly known as Sam"]

Whereas Manu's experience in big matches consists of being blown away by a 21 year old Irishman and clotheslining Ashton then punching him 3 times. Getting a ban for the AP final and making sure his team lacked a potential cutting edge.

How is a Saxons 6N game a 'big match'? It was a run out for each countries promising youngsters and on a miserable day a Ravenhill the English didn't front up and were collectively beaten. In the big matches Manu has played in he has flourished including scoring from the half way line for an internationally diminished Tigers team against the eventual leage winners. Outshining BOD in Dublin and smashing holes in the Saints defence before 30 seconds of maddness that was blown out of preportion by the media.

I think Manu Tuilagi is a good player and deserves his call up. I have already said that. He is only 19 so I can understand that he isn't the finished article. Sam you can't just brush away Manu's flaws.

The big matches you mention you lost. Ok you didn't lose the one against Saints but if justice had been done? Who knows?

How was the boxing incident blown out of proportion?

It is a big deal for numerous reasons

1.This was a high profile game - an AP semi final. A packed out crowd.

2.A midlands derby - two big rivals

3. The players involved - Manu - rising star known for his power and attack, Chris Ashton, a star of England's recent 6 nations. It was as if Manu went for one of Saints's most high profile players.

4.The severity of Manu's actions - he clotheslined Ashton then proceeded to punch him 3 times despite no provocation. It's a big deal!

5.Manu wasn't given a straight red on the spot.

Manu is only 19 so plenty of time for more incidents like that! Honestly I don't think he'll do it again though.

Right, I say that I understand why Flutey is being picked an all of a sudden I'm picking Tait and Henson?

I don't think Tait's strongest position is at 13. I don't think Tait did all that well playing for England at 13 either, certainly never showed the same kind of form that Flutey did. Tait at 13 also doesn't fit in with the game-plan I would look to play. For all those reasons I wouldn't play Tait at 13. That doesn't make me a hypocrite. You have to weigh up every decision on its own merit, not just apply one blanket policy.

And why say that "no-one understands that Flutey is a gamble", when I readily admitted that it was a gamble. I just said I only feel it is as big a gamble as picking a new face. And if Johnson believes he can play Flutey back into form, then he is definitely the best option.

By a bad egg I mean someone who is going to cause trouble in the camp. As far as I'm aware, Cueto and Armitage have never caused trouble on an England tour, something that Mike Brown has. Brown is also reportedly unlikeable. The 2003 squad had the "Would you go to war with him?" mantra, and I think if Johnson applied that to brown the answer would be no, so he hasn't picked him. It may also be worth noting that Barritt went on tour to Australia and hasn't got a look in since, maybe there is something about Barritt that rubs Johnson the wrong way.

I hope whoever Johnson picks the team succeeds and does well, regardless of my thoughts on the team selection.

Robbo I know why MJ picked him. I simply think it is the wrong choice.

I hope Flutey fails. He doesn't deserve his spot in my opinion. I will never back certain players and he is one of them now. It does grate on me that he isn't even English.

Would you pick Henson? I think the Welsh are just as idiotic for picking Henson so don't think I am just being critical of English selection.

True Barritt must have rubbed up Johnson the wrong way by beating his beloved club side 3 times in one season including the big one.

he clotheslined Ashton

It was tackle, watch the replay, the arm makes contact with the chest of Ashton. It's a quickly taken penalty and Castro and Manu come up in defence. Ashton hits and angle and Manu throughs a leading arm across his chest and then leans in with a shoulder. Had Ashton got the ball it would have been an important tackle. However, Castro got to the ball first and managed to knock it on. Therefor it becomes a tackle off the ball. A game that been simmering from the opening minute (I know I was there) following several cheap shots on Tigers players and a punch from Flood on Hartley then exploded. Ashton uses his knee to make contact with the back of Manu's head (per official report) and then Manu over reacts. Somehow punches thrown under pressure when losing your temper (completely wrong but lets face it, it happens in rugby) are worse than the pre meditated head butt of a certain Gloucester hooker or the cheap shot by a certain England full back on a prone Saints fly half.

He is among several rugby players to have a temper, and? The English captain (Moody) is the only English player ever to receive a red card at Twickers. I'm more concerned about who will be marshalling the English defensive line as Hape lacks the leadership and Manu lacks the experience.

beshocked wrote:Robbo I know why MJ picked him. I simply think it is the wrong choice.

I hope Flutey fails. He doesn't deserve his spot in my opinion. I will never back certain players and he is one of them now. It does grate on me that he isn't even English.

Would you pick Henson? I think the Welsh are just as idiotic for picking Henson so don't think I am just being critical of English selection.

True Barritt must have rubbed up Johnson the wrong way by beating his beloved club side 3 times in one season including the big one.

Flutey was making Ashton look good in the early stages of the 3N. Watch the Italy game again and note the work that Flutey does in setting up the tries that he runs in/dots down. It's all Flutey. All of it.

But I agree with you. He's not English. He's represented the NZ Maori against England and there is no way he should be named in the squad.

Sam evidently at Leicester you have different interpretations of what tackles are. It was high and round the neck. It wasn't a proper tackle.

Adding insult to injury if was an off the ball incident.

I know you are a Leicester fan but please take the blinkers off. Tuilagi will be forgiven but the incident cannot be forgotten.

The Ashton knee is a very minor point. A justifiable response after someone clotheslines you off the ball. Didn't he get a yellow card for that though?!

I would have yellow carded Tuilagi just for the off ball clothesline let alone the rest!

It wasn't one punch. It was 3.

It might be a one off incident but it is a horrific incident nonetheless.

Your attitude is almost "boys will be boys".

Olivier Azam is a nasty piece of work. I am not comparing Manu's discipline record with him.

Delon Armitage threw one punch. He is acquiring quite a poor disciplinary record though.

I believe in throwing the book at all playerd who love dirty play. E.g. Schalk Burger's ban was disgraceful.

I would probably double all the bans.

Manu Tuilagi is only 19. Plenty of time to acquire more bans. The Tuilagi family are hardly known for their good discipline.


Wow the greyghost and I agree.

Flutey hasn't played for England since 2009. Ashton made his debut in last year's 6 nations.

Maybe you mean the overrated Hape?

Sam evidently at Leicester you have different interpretations of what tackles are. It was high and round the neck. It wasn't a proper tackle.

Adding insult to injury if was an off the ball incident.

With a thoroughly inoccent explanation for why it was off the ball. As I say watch the replay the contact is on the chest it's not even high. Ashton is justifiabley annoyed but if you go looking for fights sometimes you get them.

Your attitude is almost "boys will be boys".

No my attitude is there is a huge difference between pre-meditated cheap shots and fisty cuffs after a disagreement. Neither should be allowed but there is a significant difference between attacking a prone player who isn't expecting it and attacking one on their feet who is spoiling for a fight. To me mind going out to intentionally assault a member of the opposite team is worse than the game spilling over.

Manu Tuilagi is only 19. Plenty of time to acquire more bans. The Tuilagi family are hardly known for their good discipline.

Before Manu when was the last Tuilagi ban at Tigers? There's been about two in the last five years. If that.

beshocked wrote:Sam evidently at Leicester you have different interpretations of what tackles are. It was high and round the neck. It wasn't a proper tackle.

It was across the chest, watch it on youtube and there is no reason to be so condescending just because you disagree with someone doesn't mean you have to talk to them like they are an idiot.

TheGreyGhost wrote:

beshocked wrote:Robbo I know why MJ picked him. I simply think it is the wrong choice.

I hope Flutey fails. He doesn't deserve his spot in my opinion. I will never back certain players and he is one of them now. It does grate on me that he isn't even English.

Would you pick Henson? I think the Welsh are just as idiotic for picking Henson so don't think I am just being critical of English selection.

True Barritt must have rubbed up Johnson the wrong way by beating his beloved club side 3 times in one season including the big one.

Flutey was making Ashton look good in the early stages of the 3N. Watch the Italy game again and note the work that Flutey does in setting up the tries that he runs in/dots down. It's all Flutey. All of it.

But I agree with you. He's not English. He's represented the NZ Maori against England and there is no way he should be named in the squad.

Ricky Flutey played in this years tri nations????? GG I think you need a lie down.

Beshocked, I think you need to learn the phrase "fair and balanced"

TheGreyGhost wrote:
Flutey was making Ashton look good in the early stages of the 3N. Watch the Italy game again and note the work that Flutey does in setting up the tries that he runs in/dots down. It's all Flutey. All of it.

They've only played in the same team together once and it was against France in 2010. Flutey didn't play in this year's six nations (which is what I assume you meant)

Manu's Boxing Coach wrote:
It was across the chest, watch it on youtube and there is no reason to be so condescending just because you disagree with someone doesn't mean you have to talk to them like they are an idiot.

glad to find someone who agrees with me on this. aside from the fact that ashton didn't have the ball (quite an important point, admittedly), there was nothing wrong with the tackle at all.

Trouble is you dont know whos in form untill after the match, and its a bit late then.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOLlAilBruM&NR=1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vZBjqRzZOM&feature=related

Follow the links

Can you really justify that response from Manu?

I apologise Manu's boxing coach. That tackle was marginal no matter how you look at it.

It was very far off the ball.

I am fair and balanced. I still support Manu's call up despite this horrific incident.

Spoiling for a fight? Ashton wasn't the one getting taken out off ball or being punched repeatedly. Ashton gives Manu a light shove.

Ashton was annoyed justifiably. You think he deserved what he got? No he didn't.

Alesana Tuilagi - http://www.metro.co.uk/sport/extra/632382-four-week-ban-for-tuilagi

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/international/4466496.stm

Henry Tuilagi -

http://rugbydump.blogspot.com/2010/10/henry-tuilagi-straight-red-card-for-hit.html


As I said before Manu got more publicity for the reasons listed.

So one ban whilst at Tigers then. That's all I could remember. I heard about Henry Tuilagi and a clash with Cudmore but don't know much about the incident.

It was very far off the ball

Yes but it was only off the ball because of a blocked pass, Manu was already committed to the tackle. It's reactionary and certainly a penalty. It isn't malicious though. If it was malicious Manu would have taken off Ashton's head with his shoulder.

Regardless of the ins and outs of that case Manu stands out as a fighting player even in his family. The issue there is that he tends to get into more when he sees it as a bigger challenge, the bigger the game and the bigger the player teh less likely he is to back down when someone offers him the opportunity to fight them. He wa sin at leats two fists fights in the "friendly" against Australia.
Now his ability to rise to the occassion and his complete inability to be phased by who his opponents are (jnstea dtaking it as a motiviation) have no doubt contributed to why hes in the frame at all. But I do question the wisdom of sending a player whos so easily dragged into fights. I suspect that refereess will be instructed to be extra harsh on non-play violence at the world cup. The IRB wont want people belting the hell out of each other. Theres also no question that someone will give Tuilagi good reason to take a pop at them if he does play, and can you imagine him not wanting to get a cheeky one on SBW if offered out?
Im excited by him and I want him to succeed but I do question if he really should go.

I said the tuilagi family are hardly known for their good discipline. No mention of Leicester in that sentence. They are more known for their big hits and power wouldn't you agree?

No I wouldn't say it was malicious but it was potentially dangerous and off the ball. Evidently it didn't please Ashton.

It is simply the way Pacific islanders tackle - some of the tackles are marginal.

If it was just that tackle and a shove from Ashton I think you could easily brush the incident aside but it wasn't.

I hope Manu learns from this incident which was very serious. I hope he does. I do think he is a very promising youngster despite what must seem like a lot of criticism. I just hope he doesn't repeat something like this in the RWC as we cannot afford a rush of blood to the head.

Is Manu the in form outside centre in the AP? Definitely.

Beshocked, i notice you use the phrase 'south sea islander'. It has been mentioned quite a few times on this forum that it is an offensive term and Pacific Islander should be used. Google it to find out why it offends so much.

Oh right I see carpe diem. I apologise. I will edit to pacific islander.

tomathy wrote:

TheGreyGhost wrote:
Flutey was making Ashton look good in the early stages of the 3N. Watch the Italy game again and note the work that Flutey does in setting up the tries that he runs in/dots down. It's all Flutey. All of it.

They've only played in the same team together once and it was against France in 2010. Flutey didn't play in this year's six nations (which is what I assume you meant)

You know what I meant.

TheGreyGhost wrote:

tomathy wrote:

TheGreyGhost wrote:
Flutey was making Ashton look good in the early stages of the 3N. Watch the Italy game again and note the work that Flutey does in setting up the tries that he runs in/dots down. It's all Flutey. All of it.

They've only played in the same team together once and it was against France in 2010. Flutey didn't play in this year's six nations (which is what I assume you meant)

You know what I meant.

No not really.

He meant Hape and this 6 Nations.

beshocked wrote:Robbo I know why MJ picked him. I simply think it is the wrong choice.

I hope Flutey fails. He doesn't deserve his spot in my opinion. I will never back certain players and he is one of them now. It does grate on me that he isn't even English.

Would you pick Henson? I think the Welsh are just as idiotic for picking Henson so don't think I am just being critical of English selection.

True Barritt must have rubbed up Johnson the wrong way by beating his beloved club side 3 times in one season including the big one.

Would I pick Henson? Wales aren't exactly spoiled for choice at centres, no-one has really stuck their hand up and made the 12 shirt their own, so I would definitely have him in the training squad, although I don't know THAT much about their other options.

If Johnson was truly biased against Saracens there is no way that Stevens, Botha (Attwood) or Wigglesworth (P. Hodgson/Dickson) would have made the squad. Quit being so melodramatic.

Robbo fair enough you would pick Henson. Obviously we have differing views. If I was Welsh I wouldn't want Henson anywhere near the squad.

Attwood is injured and probably would have been picked instead. All the other players were originally at other clubs before Saracens. All the others have been in good form and have England caps so are obvious choices.

The problem I have is MJ doesn't properly plug the holes where we have genuine weaknesses like inside centre, no 8 and no decent FB in the England squad after Foden.

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,12337_7076730,00.html

Foden doesn't seem to think there is no decent FB other than him.

meflanker what do you expect Foden to say?


Interviewer: "Do you think Armitage could overtake you as no 1 Fullback of England again after you took his place?"

Foden:"Armitage? Are you kidding me? I am the greatest English full back since Josh Lewsey! Armitage has been banned so much he has barely played any rugby! Anyway enough talking about Armitage let's talk about me."

It would be bad for morale if Foden publicly insulted Armitage.

I agree, but there is going to some element of truth in what he says.
If Armitage can rediscover the form he was in when he first came into the England team then we will have 2 pretty good full backs in the squad.

Amusing though

"Have I even watched him this season? No. Hence my questioning whether he was any better. Note the word previously also. I did NOT say he was slow now, I asked if he had become any better, because when I last paid him any attention (when he got called up for England) he was painfully slow. Having heard the rumour that he went to see Margot Wells about this then I was wondering if he had improved."

Somehow I've managed to find myself Mike Brown's biggest supporter and have gotten into some slagging matches in the past that have made me a little overly sensitive. Now I react to the slightest provocation: "How dare you even suggest that Mike Brown may be slow?!!!!!"