Sam Warburton Red Card

First topic message reminder :

Good call from the ref a definite spear tackle. Has there been a more stupid piece of play this world cup?

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:The best way forward is to have consistency amongst refs - If that means memos by POB (or whoever) to get it then the answer is yes!

welshy824 wrote:i am sorry but why are we still talking about this????

whats done is done, was it a red- according to the exact letter of the law- probably.
looking at the tackle did it deserve a red- probably not
did it affect the match- yes
could wales still have won- yes
why didnt they win- didnt take their chances

move on now come on!

Why didn't they win? Because Wales had 14 men against 15 - an enormous handicap probably worth 20 points. If there had been 15 vs 15, in all probability they would have won comfortably even if they had missed every single kick. Just as in the final, 14 men vs 15 men for most of the game would have decided the result for either France of the ABs, even if the winner had missed all their kicks.

This story is going to run and run. We won't be moving anywhere for years to come.

samuraidragon wrote:

Why didn't they win? Because Wales had 14 men against 15 - an enormous handicap probably worth 20 points. If there had been 15 vs 15, in all probability they would have won comfortably

problem is it's been proven that France went into their shell once he was sent off, they could well have played as they did in the final and beaten us comfortably, the main cause of us losing, for me anyway, was Hook's complete lack of game management, if Priestland had been playing we could well have won even after the sending off. I think it's fair to say the sending off spoilt the game, but it affected both teams and it's impossible to say who would have won if it had been 15 v 15.

Can't agree at all. We were well on top until the sending off and France had nothing to offer. Hook and Jones missed a bunch of points, but if you think that the average points against for a yellow is 7, you can see the scale of the handicap of a red with 60 minutes to go.20 is a conservative estimate. Yes, France got it together for the AB game, but against us they were showing the poor form they had showed to date in the competition.

samuraidragon wrote:Can't agree at all. We were well on top until the sending off and France had nothing to offer. Hook and Jones missed a bunch of points, but if you think that the average points against for a yellow is 7, you can see the scale of the handicap of a red with 60 minutes to go.20 is a conservative estimate. Yes, France got it together for the AB game, but against us they were showing the poor form they had showed to date in the competition.

yes but we shoudl still have won. red card is a red herring, we missed 9 points off the boot at least

samuraidragon wrote:

Why didn't they win? Because Wales had 14 men against 15 - an enormous handicap probably worth 20 points. If there had been 15 vs 15, in all probability they would have won comfortably even if they had missed every single kick. Just as in the final, 14 men vs 15 men for most of the game would have decided the result for either France of the ABs, even if the winner had missed all their kicks.

This story is going to run and run. We won't be moving anywhere for years to come.

samurai i agree what i am saying is that wales COULD have still won. theres no point going on about it- i was gutted myself but we have to move on its life

Warburton states Rolland was correct:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/15582112.stm

LondonTiger wrote:Warburton states Rolland was correct:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/15582112.stm

Yes saw that.
Good to see a player and captain of his side take responsibility. Its those sorts of things that real leaders front up and take their dues. Wales are obviously in good hands with Mr Warburton. Perhaps could have come out with it immediately as only he would have known any measure of intent which appears clear there wasnt any.

right so will Warburton admitting he deserved the red card finally stop this utterly pointless debate at last?

Mad for Chelsea wrote:right so will Warburton admitting he deserved the red card finally stop this utterly pointless debate at last?

I doubt it, some of the Welsh "fans" on here will still say he shouldn't have been red carded.

Should Gatland be facing disrepute charges for questioning the red card?

England rugby fan wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:right so will Warburton admitting he deserved the red card finally stop this utterly pointless debate at last?

I doubt it, some of the Welsh "fans" on here will still say he shouldn't have been red carded.

Interestingly, Mr/Ms Fan, if you take a look at the most recent thread on this 'debate' - on Rolland avoiding the Wales 6N matches - you will find that not a single welsh poster disagrees with the red card decision.

rumpelstiltskindoh wrote:

Interestingly, Mr/Ms Fan, if you take a look at the most recent thread on this 'debate' - on Rolland avoiding the Wales 6N matches - you will find that not a single welsh poster disagrees with the red card decision.

Interestingly, Mr/Mrs doh, if you look at the most recent thread on this 'debate' - on Rolland avoiding the Wales 6N matche - you will find that a few Welsh posters were saying that Rolland would not be treated kindly for his correct decision to red card Warburton.

The Great Aukster wrote:Should Gatland be facing disrepute charges for questioning the red card?

was this tongue-in-cheek?

Taylorman wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Warburton states Rolland was correct:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/15582112.stm

Yes saw that.
Good to see a player and captain of his side take responsibility. Its those sorts of things that real leaders front up and take their dues. Wales are obviously in good hands with Mr Warburton. Perhaps could have come out with it immediately as only he would have known any measure of intent which appears clear there wasnt any.

Warburton and the WRU took responsibility from the outset

"Independent judicial officer Christopher Quinlan of England said Rolland's decision to send off Warburton, criticised by many pundits, was in line with IRB directives and concluded the offence was "mid-range" on the scale of seriousness, which has an entry point of six weeks.
But taking account of Warburton's admission, "outstanding character, disciplinary record and remorse," he reduced the ban to three weeks.
Warburton said after the verdict: "Obviously I'm very disappointed but all my attention and focus now goes towards the players playing on Friday and supporting them the best I can."
He was accompanied at the hearing by Rhodri Lewis, the Welsh Rugby Union's head of legal affairs, who added: "The WRU respects the process and will not be commenting on the detail of the hearing.
"We are obviously, naturally, disappointed for Sam that he will not be able to play on Friday. Our focus now moves towards Friday's match.
"Sam has been an exemplary captain for Wales throughout the Rugby World Cup."
Welsh Rugby Union chief executive Roger Lewis said in a statement: "We are disappointed with the decision to suspend Wales captain Sam Warburton from the game for three weeks, following his red card dismissal in the Rugby World Cup semi-final.
"The WRU respects the process which has been followed and understands the disciplinary procedures in place.
"Our focus in now totally upon the forthcoming third place play-off international, which will be played at Eden Park in Auckland on Friday.
"The WRU further wishes to state its unequivocal support for Sam Warburton as a role model and exemplary captain who has led Wales to formidable success in the competition so far."

TBH Warburton's statement should be the final note in this whole saga.


Oh and is probably the death knell for Matthew Rees hopes of regaining the captaincy.

maestegmafia wrote:
Warburton and the WRU took responsibility from the outset

"Independent judicial officer Christopher Quinlan of England said Rolland's decision to send off Warburton, criticised by many pundits, was in line with IRB directives and concluded the offence was "mid-range" on the scale of seriousness, which has an entry point of six weeks.
But taking account of Warburton's admission, "outstanding character, disciplinary record and remorse," he reduced the ban to three weeks.
Warburton said after the verdict: "Obviously I'm very disappointed but all my attention and focus now goes towards the players playing on Friday and supporting them the best I can."
He was accompanied at the hearing by Rhodri Lewis, the Welsh Rugby Union's head of legal affairs, who added: "The WRU respects the process and will not be commenting on the detail of the hearing.
"We are obviously, naturally, disappointed for Sam that he will not be able to play on Friday. Our focus now moves towards Friday's match.
"Sam has been an exemplary captain for Wales throughout the Rugby World Cup."
Welsh Rugby Union chief executive Roger Lewis said in a statement: "We are disappointed with the decision to suspend Wales captain Sam Warburton from the game for three weeks, following his red card dismissal in the Rugby World Cup semi-final.
"The WRU respects the process which has been followed and understands the disciplinary procedures in place.
"Our focus in now totally upon the forthcoming third place play-off international, which will be played at Eden Park in Auckland on Friday.
"The WRU further wishes to state its unequivocal support for Sam Warburton as a role model and exemplary captain who has led Wales to formidable success in the competition so far."

Nowhere have the WRU or Warburton accepted responsibility in those comments, they are just agreeing with the process that has been followed and their comments give the impression that they disagree with the ban that was handed out.

ERF, I expect the reference to his accepting it is to be article that was headlined on the BBC rugby site quoting from an interview with Warburton as follows:

"The IRB [International Rugby Board] said if you lift up a player and drop him it's a red card, and that's exactly what I did," said Warburton.

"I can't complain."

If you listen to the interview extract on the BBC website, he goes further in saying the ref was right. Slightly worryingly, it appears he didn't really know the rules before now. I wonder how many players don't.

I agree that is different to the line coming from WG.

In the Independent today it says that Warbs's seat on his plane out of Auckland was the seat next to Vincent Clerc! Apparently Clerc broke the ice by asking him for a massage.

England rugby fan wrote:Nowhere have the WRU or Warburton accepted responsibility in those comments, they are just agreeing with the process that has been followed and their comments give the impression that they disagree with the ban that was handed out.

WARBURTON PLEADED GUILTY YOU ABSOLUTE AIFEGNSFGLHADFGH?!?!?!?!!

what part of taking responsibility dont you understand?

hes shouldered this whole incident and never blamed anyone but himself.

you stupid clart.

Gatland had disputed the call in relation to cards given for similar offences earlier in the tournament and stated he thought the magnitude of the vent should have played in Rollands mind, basically, he thought it should have been a yellow (as did 50/60% of ex-players/coaches at the time he said it). He's been mildly condemned for those comments, it was put down to hurting after the defeat.

the comments about rolland not having the nicest reception in wales should he have been reffing/involved in a wales match this 6ns, well, its just common sense to avoid that potential situation by him missing Wales this tournament. his decision probably cost wales their place in the world cup final, in a rugby-mad country, however correct this decision, thats still going to have upset people.

can we have like a new unspoken law where people have to think before posting? mods? anyone? maybe a vigilante style group of non-mods who keep the 606v2 board clear of crap but are always being hunted down by the actual mods for thei won safety? or something.

Comfort wrote:

WARBURTON PLEADED GUILTY YOU ABSOLUTE AIFEGNSFGLHADFGH?!?!?!?!!

what part of taking responsibility dont you understand?

hes shouldered this whole incident and never blamed anyone but himself.

Ah, you're an internet keyboard warrior. Yes, he pleaded guilty, but in the comments posted by somewhere else it gives the impression by Warburton and the WRU that they didn't think he should get a ban.

Comfort wrote:you stupid clart.

Oh dear. You know someone has lost the argument when they start writing insults.

Comfort wrote:Gatland had disputed the call in relation to cards given for similar offences earlier in the tournament and stated he thought the magnitude of the vent should have played in Rollands mind, basically, he thought it should have been a yellow (as did 50/60% of ex-players/coaches at the time he said it).

It shouldn't matter if it is a RWC final or Risca 3rds v Llandovery 4ths a "tip tackle" is a red card. Gatland and all the others are wrong as proven by the bans handed out to other players who only got yellow cards for "tip tackles" in previous matches in RWC 2011

Comfort wrote:can we have like a new unspoken law where people have to think before posting? mods? anyone? maybe a vigilante style group of non-mods who keep the 606v2 board clear of crap but are always being hunted down by the actual mods for thei won safety? or something.

I suggest you start with your own comments

English fan, fairplay.
its almost as if you cant read.
good luck with that in the future

Glas a du wrote:_______________________________________________

Comfort wrote:English fan, fairplay.
its almost as if you cant read.
good luck with that in the future

I can read very well thanks.

Overeaction from all quarters.

Fans because of the match outcome despite the actual loss being more attributable to missed kicks than then sending off.

Gatland for not being able to take a lesson from henrys book in understanding the power of less is more. "Let others bleat. Its not our way".
Opposition fans for rarking up the welsh when theyre down.

Thats why warburton stands head n shoulders above the rest. Took it immediately. Got on with supporting the team. Shades of McCaws maturity as a captain.

All class. Stood up when others bickered all around him.

That plane trip home when he sat next to Clerc, who asked him for a massage, will go down in rugby folklore. That's what this game is all about.

Time for the mods to lock this car-crash of a thread, it's just an easy WUM/troll for some English posters now.

The story continues. The fact that Stephen Jones just got yellowed for a tip tackle in the Scarlets vs Ospreys game confirms that the some referees do not see a non-malevolent tackle of this sort as an automatic red.

samuraidragon wrote:The story continues. The fact that Stephen Jones just got yellowed for a tip tackle in the Scarlets vs Ospreys game confirms that the some referees do not see a non-malevolent tackle of this sort as an automatic red.

When Jones gets his ban, then that will prove that the referee was wrong in only giving a yellow card. "Non-malevolent" has got nothing to do with it, a "tip tackle" is a red card offence.

The ref saw the Jones tip-tackle. He will of course have absorbed all the kerfuffle about the Warburton card. Even so he chose to give a yellow not a red. Why? Because he judged a red to be inappropriate.

Jones may well get a ban. But that is an entirely different class of punishment from a red during a game, which hands a massive advantage to the opposition team and has a huge effect on the result.

Incidentally, the fact that the tackler was Stephen Jones, a highly experienced player who is known for his solid but fair tackling suggests that any player can make a tip-tackle by accident and get, according to the traffic-warden type mentality that now prevails , a red-card.

The ref chose yellow presumably because he didn't want to ruin a local derby for a harmless offence that would not even have been illegal until a few years ago.

As I said earlier, when Jones gets his ban, the referee will be shown that he made the wrong decision by only giving a yellow card. It doesn't matter what the match is, wether it's a local derby in the Roboplop league or Risca 3rds v UWIC 5ths, a "tip tackle" is a red card.

It also doesn't matter that it wasn't an illegal offence only a years ago, the current laws of the game state that it is an illegal offence.

I wish some of you Welsh fans would stop feeling like you're "victims" of the rugby world

Sure, we all know that Rolland was technically "right" and the ref who decided not to ruin the Ospreys-Scarlets local derby was "wrong."

No longer a question of victiim or not. More a philosophical problem about the absurdity of a regulatory apparatus that leads to Warburton getting dismissed while a clear eye-gouging incident in the final gets no punishment at all.

I suppose we are so used to this kind of nonsense in our society - people getting the book thrown at them for minor technical offences while the really bad guys get away with murder, quite literally sometimes - that nobody bats an eyelid any more. Hey, it's the rules, right?

Rolland wasn't technically "right", he was right. You did see that the two players in RWC 2011 who only got yellow carded for "tip tackles" did subsequently receive match bans and that the referees who only awarded yellow cards were told that they had made the wrong decisions ?

I see you're still playing the victim.

There's no rules in rugby, but there are laws....

[quote="England rugby fan"]You did see that the two players in RWC 2011 who only got yellow carded for "tip tackles" did subsequently receive match bans and that the referees who only awarded yellow cards were told that they had made the wrong decisions ?
quote]

Yes, and I now see that refs CONTINUE to give yellows for tips.

Why is that do you think? Do they not know the rules (sorry, "laws")? Or are they simply idiots?

England rugby fan wrote:As I said earlier, when Jones gets his ban, the referee will be shown that he made the wrong decision by only giving a yellow card. It doesn't matter what the match is, wether it's a local derby in the Roboplop league or Risca 3rds v UWIC 5ths, a "tip tackle" is a red card.

It also doesn't matter that it wasn't an illegal offence only a years ago, the current laws of the game state that it is an illegal offence.

I wish some of you Welsh fans would stop feeling like you're "victims" of the rugby world

And i wish that England would give up rugby and start a 3 ring circus which they would be eminently better at, Manu could do the diving into the tiny pool trick and Haskell could squirt people in the eye like the big flowery clown he is

samuraidragon wrote:

Yes, and I now see that refs CONTINUE to give yellows for tips.

Why is that do you think? Do they not know the rules (sorry, "laws")? Or are they simply idiots?

They are WRONG in CONTINUING to give yellow cards.

I think you'll find it's the latter.

Gatts wrote:

And i wish that England would give up rugby and start a 3 ring circus which they would be eminently better at, Manu could do the diving into the tiny pool trick and Haskell could squirt people in the eye like the big flowery clown he is

Yawn.

Perhaps a Welsh player could drive the England players to the MS in his golf buggy along the motorway. Or a Welsh player could abuse passengers on a train or throw pool balls at people in a bar ?

Under the stringent application of the laws, should Warbs have been givena red card? Yes, he should have been.

If you saw the incident without having the most recent IRB directives in line, would you have given it a red card? Probbaly not, or maybe so. Who knows?

As a Welsh fan, all I can say is yes, Rolland was right in giving a red card under the laws. Should the laws be a bit more leniant in that situation? Maybe I am biased but I think so. Some of the red cards you seen given (Fritz's in the Heineken) are far too soft nowadays.

England rugby fan wrote:

Gatts wrote:

And i wish that England would give up rugby and start a 3 ring circus which they would be eminently better at, Manu could do the diving into the tiny pool trick and Haskell could squirt people in the eye like the big flowery clown he is

Yawn.

Perhaps a Welsh player could drive the England players to the MS in his golf buggy along the motorway. Or a Welsh player could abuse passengers on a train or throw pool balls at people in a bar ?

Ha ha, you went all the way to NZ to a world cup, the pinncle of a career, and behaved like a bunch of idiots, even your Captain now admits he shoul dhave done something but didn't have the balls, just spilling the beans now to sell his book. English rugby is a joke and the whole world knows it, except it seems, the England rugby Fan

Gatts wrote:

England rugby fan wrote:

Gatts wrote:

And i wish that England would give up rugby and start a 3 ring circus which they would be eminently better at, Manu could do the diving into the tiny pool trick and Haskell could squirt people in the eye like the big flowery clown he is

Yawn.

Perhaps a Welsh player could drive the England players to the MS in his golf buggy along the motorway. Or a Welsh player could abuse passengers on a train or throw pool balls at people in a bar ?

Ha ha, you went all the way to NZ to a world cup, the pinncle of a career, and behaved like a bunch of idiots, even your Captain now admits he shoul dhave done something but didn't have the balls, just spilling the beans now to sell his book. English rugby is a joke and the whole world knows it, except it seems, the England rugby Fan

I didn't go to NZ.

I'm guessing by your comments, that you're a typical English hating "rugby fan" from Wales ? Thought so.
The only "idiotic behaviour" was the immature comments to the hotel worker, which was brought to light over a week after the event when the publicity seeking/ hotel worker sold her story to the press.

Taylorman wrote: Its not our way".
Opposition fans for rarking up the welsh when theyre down.

All class. Stood up when others bickered all around him.

and theyre all still bleating...

England rugby fan wrote:

Gatts wrote:

England rugby fan wrote:

Gatts wrote:

And i wish that England would give up rugby and start a 3 ring circus which they would be eminently better at, Manu could do the diving into the tiny pool trick and Haskell could squirt people in the eye like the big flowery clown he is

Yawn.

Perhaps a Welsh player could drive the England players to the MS in his golf buggy along the motorway. Or a Welsh player could abuse passengers on a train or throw pool balls at people in a bar ?

Ha ha, you went all the way to NZ to a world cup, the pinncle of a career, and behaved like a bunch of idiots, even your Captain now admits he shoul dhave done something but didn't have the balls, just spilling the beans now to sell his book. English rugby is a joke and the whole world knows it, except it seems, the England rugby Fan

I didn't go to NZ.

I'm guessing by your comments, that you're a typical English hating "rugby fan" from Wales ? Thought so.
The only "idiotic behaviour" was the immature comments to the hotel worker, which was brought to light over a week after the event when the publicity seeking/ hotel worker sold her story to the press.

'Yawn' coming from you and aimed at somebody else is kind of ironic isn't it the England rubgy fan?

Guys, to those people who advocate a yellow card and then a suspension I will say that if the governing bodies deem your behaviour serious enough to be banned from playing rugby for weeks, then you have deserved a red card.

A red card is very harsh but it is designed to be the greatest possible deterrent.

The reason for this is that there is a small risk of a serious and life changing injury. A research team followed 12 English Premiership clubs for two seasons and found an incidence of 10.9 spinal column injuries per 1000 player match hours. None were catastrophic, but 3 were career ending. They confirmed dangerou tackles as the major culprit.

In the South African context, another research group reported a total of 8.3
spinal cord injuries per season between 1990 - 1997 in the Western
Cape alone. Twenty per cent were schoolboys. The devastating
outcome was death in 8%, tetraplegia in 48% with only 35%
recovering significantly.

When all the players are getting bigger and bulkier and rugby changes from a contact sport to a collision sport, the IRB needs to address this. This directive is how they are doing it. Unfortunately it means in the short term there will be soft red cards - but its the only way to change it.

Red Stag - thanks for supplying that data. Do the studies break down the injuiries between currently illegal and legal tackles, or between injuries to the tackler and the tackled player? Some of the worst injuries I have seen have been to the tackler due to incorrect head position in the tackle. Likewise from collisions which did not result from foul play such as the Byrne / Evans collision which ended Thom Evans' career or Jamie Roberts cracking his skull a few years ago.

I don't have more detailed info right now SamDragon. Theres a more cynical answer also that the increase in serious injury has led to an increase in insurance premiums for national unions. These types of directives reduce the amount of insurance premiums payable as they can point to these as reducing dangerous tackling.

Understood. I was wondering, also cynically, whether the IRB wanted "to be seen to be doing something" about the increasing risk of serious injury in the game. Cracking down on tip-tackling would be "doing something," even if most serious injuries are caused in legit collisions between players that are getting ever bigger and stronger, "bulking up" through supplements etc., and tip-tackles are (I'm guessing here) responsible for few if any injuries.

I've just checked it out. The studies do show that there are three kinds of tackle which cause most injury. Blind tackles - where the ball carrier doesn't see the tackler coming and isn't prepared for it. Gang tackling - where the ball carrier is hit by more than one opponent. And finally tip tackling where the player has been turned in the air and his upper body hits the ground.

Yes I do think IRB want to be seen to address this. Im guessing tip tackling was easiest to rectify. The scrum used to cause most injury but the amount of scrums in modern rugby is about 40% less than it used to be - this is the reason behind the long winded pain in the rear Crouch Touch PAUSE. . . Engage sequence.

Fair enough.

England rugby fan wrote:

Gatts wrote:

England rugby fan wrote:

Gatts wrote:

And i wish that England would give up rugby and start a 3 ring circus which they would be eminently better at, Manu could do the diving into the tiny pool trick and Haskell could squirt people in the eye like the big flowery clown he is

Yawn.

Perhaps a Welsh player could drive the England players to the MS in his golf buggy along the motorway. Or a Welsh player could abuse passengers on a train or throw pool balls at people in a bar ?

Ha ha, you went all the way to NZ to a world cup, the pinncle of a career, and behaved like a bunch of idiots, even your Captain now admits he shoul dhave done something but didn't have the balls, just spilling the beans now to sell his book. English rugby is a joke and the whole world knows it, except it seems, the England rugby Fan

I didn't go to NZ.

I'm guessing by your comments, that you're a typical English hating "rugby fan" from Wales ? Thought so.
The only "idiotic behaviour" was the immature comments to the hotel worker, which was brought to light over a week after the event when the publicity seeking/ hotel worker sold her story to the press.

You are making some huge assumptions

1. Don't hate England, think they are stupid, really really stupid to have taken their rwc so lightly and with such disrespect for their fans
2. Were you there...did you hear the 'immature' comments made by Haskell et al?
3. What do you know about the motivations of the hotel worker?

Straight questions
1. wouldn't you say jumping off a ferry is idiotic?
2. isn't ball tampering stupid?
3.Was Tindall wise to get caught on an away fixture or naively stupid?

Ironically on his previous home ground whilst on tour.