England Centre's

First topic message reminder :

If you had to pick four from the following options for the upcoming six nations, who would you choose and why?

Riki Flutey (31) Shontayne Hape (30) Brad Barritt (25) Matt Banahan (24) Anthony Allen (25) Jordan Turner-Hall (23) Olly Barkley (29), Owen Farrell (20) Manu Tuilagi (20) Jonathan Joseph (20) Dom Waldouck (24) Henry Trinder (22) George Lowe (21) Billy Twelvetrees (22)

12. Barritt
13. Tuilagi

Trinder in the squad also.

That for me is a very exciting and destructive centre combination, both 'proper' centres aswell.

As for Banahan, at international level, he doesnt have the dynamic power/aggression to pose the threat he does at club level. He basically represents a giant moving target for players to tackle.

The Shane tackle 5m out from the line in a one on one situation sealed it for me, until I see him proving he has the power and aggression his frame suggests, he'd be released from the EPS and and have to prove himself again.

Might be a bit harsh, but I'm 5'10, 13 stone and have a torn cruciate ligament in my knee, I'd have fancied my chances against shane in that situation.

beshocked wrote:leachy15 why move Tuilagi?

Tuilagi is an outside centre, Flood is a fly half,Monye is a winger, Banahan is a winger. Let's not please shunt people around for the sake of it.

Is Trinder so much better than Tuilagi at outside centre that Tuilagi needs to move?

Eustace agree about Youngs. Hope he comes good.

FES

beshocked. I just think that it would provide balance to our centre's. Tuilagi is a good player and stand out England Player at this RWC. I just think that we could with Tuilagi/Trinder have SBW/Smith type of centre partnership.

Tuilagi would get more ball at 12 mean he can straighten the line and stop defenses from drifting (meaning more space for the likes of Ashton, Foden & Sharples). Then you have Trinder who can run great lines off of him but also have the hands to allow our back three to function in the wide spaces. We could even run more strike moves from first phase!

Personally that is what I would like to see.

This is a no-brainer. England must go with power in the centres.

Banahan and Tuilagi with Barritt and JTH/Lowe as backups.

All top sides have extreme power in the centres.

Flutey, Waldouck and Allen are just way too small for top 4 test rugby.
Farrell is and outstanding 10 in the making.
Barkley has proved he is useless for England on more than one occasion.

The others are all good players that can/may step up in time

Comfort


Leachy15Err don't you mean Nonu and Smith? SBW is more of an utility player. Certainly completely different to the other two!

My point like what others have said is that why move Tuilagi?

Tuilagi has excelled at 13. As soon as we have found a decent performer at 13 you want to move him to accomodate someone unproven? In my opinion that just isn't right.

Trinder probably has a future as a 13 but he needs to wait his turn.

In regards to 12s we have Barritt and Allen to name just two.

Some would argue that playing Tuilagi with a Leicester team mate would be the ideal choice. I dont rate Twelvetrees very highly but he has many fans.

Is Trinder a defensive organiser?

Englandglory4ever Banahan is big and fast but what else does he offer? Certainly as a centre you need more than that.

Banahan is an extremely important player for Bath. You could see how much we missed him at the weekend, he offers vital go forward at inside centre, with his ball carrying and offloading, whilst he also draws defenders in (as it usually takes more than one person to tackle him) which helps free up our wide men. His distribution is also extremely under-rated and much improved. His defence is also rock solid.

Watch him this season for Bath at 12, he could be a very useful option there for England, however you may have to shift Tuilagi out to the wing and play a more creative, pacey 13 such as Jonathan Joseph or Dom Waldouck.

robshaw4 england aren't you a Quins fan?

You are another person who wants to shift Tuilagi from outside centre?

Bet you thought Monye was a full back, Bergamasco was a scrum half,Flood was an inside centre, Banahan an inside centre....

Dom Waldouck - you mean the outside centre who is permanently crocked?

Next you'll be suggesting Tom Rees at 7...oh wait..not with Robshaw around.

How about Jordan Crane at no 8?

"beshocked" I am a Bath fan, Bath born and bred. However I am a fan of Rugby in general, and Quins are one of my favourite teams to watch.

I have advocated Robshaw's selection for England for a number of years now, and will not be fully satisfied until he becomes a fixture in England's starting XV. (touch wood)

I personally feel Tuilagi would be a very viable option for England on the wing, he is powerful, fast and solid in defence, whilst I feel we could utilise his strengths further with a couple of creative players inside him, and a more powerful player at 12 such as Banahan or Barritt to draw defenders in and free up space outside.

As for your comments on Monye, Bergamasco and Flood. If that is an attempt to be funny... well done 5* for effort.

You'll eat your hat soon about Waldouck. He has just come back from injury and he will be pushing for England selection come the six nations mark my words.

Clearly Rees and Crane are out injured for the season, so yet another attempt at being funny failed. However both players once fully fit and in good form could do a very good job for England.

englandglory4ever wrote:This is a no-brainer. England must go with power in the centres.

Banahan and Tuilagi with Barritt and JTH/Lowe as backups.

All top sides have extreme power in the centres.

Flutey, Waldouck and Allen are just way too small for top 4 test rugby.
Farrell is and outstanding 10 in the making.
Barkley has proved he is useless for England on more than one occasion.

The others are all good players that can/may step up in time

I also hope England select Bananaman and Tuilangi in the midfield. As the opposition I would love that

I think you need to watch the top sides more, who have brains in the midfield as well as brawn..

englandglory4ever wrote:This is a no-brainer. England must go with power in the centres.

Banahan and Tuilagi with Barritt and JTH/Lowe as backups.

All top sides have extreme power in the centres.
Flutey, Waldouck and Allen are just way too small for top 4 test rugby.
Farrell is and outstanding 10 in the making.
Barkley has proved he is useless for England on more than one occasion.

The others are all good players that can/may step up in time

Sorry but you need power AND skill out there in the centre....

I'd be looking at:

EPS:
Barritt, Twelvetrees
Tuilagi, Trinder

Not entirely sure about the Saxons, I'd look at getting Turner-Hall and Lowe in there, and a couple of others as well.

I was never fully convinced by Barritt, but by all accounts he's been on form this season so I would stick him in there. Twelvetrees has all the tools to become the real deal and he covers 10, so I would definitely be looking to get him in there. If Barritt doesn't come good (I'd be looking at giving him the full Six Nations and possibly the whole summer series as well) then I'd look at giving Twelvetrees a couple of appearances off the bench and then starts in the autumn to see what he's got.

Tuilagi had a good world cup at 13, let's stick with him at 13, see how he goes with Barritt and hopefully some decent quick ball. Trinder played well in the Saxons and has started this season on fire, so he is definitely next cab off the rank.

I think we definitely will see a change in the centres, we only took Hape, Tindall and Tuilagi to the World Cup, Tindall has already been axed and Hape, despite scoring 2 tries in his only start (I believe) was still dropped for an out of position 13 and, when Tindall got injured, Hape was still left out for two 10s playing together. Didn't even make the bench with 1 fit centre in the squad.

Its such a shame barrit didn't get experience up to and including the last world cup as he could be a real international force by now however we have to ease him now.

I honestly see billy twelvetrees as the future for the england centres but he needs to move clubs or he will end up as a utility, he has all the attributes to solve our backline conundrum.

I think johnsons decision to spend so long sticking with bloomin hape and banahan only to play flood at 12 in the WC 1/4 final means he has to go...he had three years to develop centres and he moves a 6ft 7 club standard wing into the 12 position and a outside centre, one trick pony, kiwi league convert, to 12....only to get to the climax of those 3 years realise neither player can really do 12 at international level and change it all !!! Antony allen, brad barrit even fluety would have been better !!

robshaw4england I genuinely didn't know you were a Bath fan. Why are you such a huge fan of Robshaw?

I don't agree about Tuilagi going on the wing for a number of reasons.

1. His best position is no 13.
2.He plays no 13 for his club side.
3.Has he ever played on the wing?
4.We have plenty of strong options on the wing.
5.He is currently our best outside centre.

If you thought it was funny then great.

Of course I know Crane and Rees are injured. It's a surprise when they are not.

robbo277 Barritt has been one of the most consistent inside centres in the AP for the last two seasons. Nice to see that at last he is getting some recognition.

Agree with most of your points but personally think Twelvetrees is overrated.

He has appeared on the wing, but I would personally stick him at 13 with Farrell inside him.

beshocked I am a fan of Robshaw simply because I feel he is an outstanding player, and I cannot comprehend how he only has one cap for England.

Not only is he a formidable tackler, but his work-rate is phenominal. He is a quality link-man, strong ball carrier who often gets over the gainline. His organisation and leadership for Quins is also highly impressive. He also has the versatility to play on both flanks.

I honestly feel he has been the missing component in the England back row. When Haskell gets back from from his 'holiday' in Japan and New Zealand, a back row of Croft, Robshaw and Haskell with Fearns and Wood pushing hard would be very impressive.

I only said playing Tuilagi on the wing would be a viable option. I agree that he was our most outstanding centre (not hard) in New Zealand, although I have doubts over whether a centre partnership with Banahan/Barritt inside him would have a very good balance, maybe Farrell could do a good job there, or Twelvetree's if he manages to get selected ahead of Allen at Leicester.

However I think it is most likely we will see a Barritt/Tuilagi partnership, Barritt has been ignored for too long and is an outstanding player for Saracens.
I'm genuinely suprised Rees hasn't given up and retired, but I hope he does come back from his injury nightmare, because a few years ago he looked like an outstanding player.

englandglory4ever wrote:This is a no-brainer. England must go with power in the centres.

Banahan and Tuilagi with Barritt and JTH/Lowe as backups.

All top sides have extreme power in the centres.

Please can you support this with examples? It seems to me that it doesn't reflect reality.

I agree.

New Zealand first choice is Nonu and Smith.

Australia go with Barnes and McCabe or McCabe and Ashley-Cooper.

South Africa go with De Villiers and Fourie.

France go with Mermoz and Rougerie.

Ireland with D'Arcy and BOD.

Wales with Roberts and JD2.


I'd hardly say all of these are examples of "extreme power". Wales and South Africa are pretty powerful combinations but there's nothing there that would suggest to me that Barritt and Tuilagi (my suggested combo) wouldn't be able to hold their own.

I can't believe I've just read some of the very recent posts on powerful centres.

So, Nonu, Rougerie, JdV, Fourie, Roberts, JD2, etc. are not powerful? Do me a favour. These guys are hugely powerful. Several are 6'4" for a start. Don't you lot know anything about rugby? Just because you watch them on tele I can assure you they are not as small as you obviously think.

englandglory4ever wrote:I can't believe I've just read some of the very recent posts on powerful centres.

So, Nonu, Rougerie, JdV, Fourie, Roberts, JD2, etc. are not powerful? Do me a favour. These guys are hugely powerful. Several are 6'4" for a start. Don't you lot know anything about rugby? Just because you watch them on tele I can assure you they are not as small as you obviously think.

I think the point he is making is that BOTH centres in a team don't need to be massive crash-ball merchants, that can just be one dimensional. It helps if one of them is (something England has covered in Manu Tuilagi), but there is still a place for a clever ball player (with sufficient defesive abilities). For the record, plenty of the guys quoted were under 6'ft4".

Conrad Smith 6ft 1in 14st 12lb
Pat McCabe 6ft 1in 14st 7lb
Maxime Mermoz 5ft 11in 14st 2lb
Gordon D’Arcy 5ft 11in 14st 8lb

Cumbrian wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:I can't believe I've just read some of the very recent posts on powerful centres.

So, Nonu, Rougerie, JdV, Fourie, Roberts, JD2, etc. are not powerful? Do me a favour. These guys are hugely powerful. Several are 6'4" for a start. Don't you lot know anything about rugby? Just because you watch them on tele I can assure you they are not as small as you obviously think.

I think the point he is making is that BOTH centres in a team don't need to be massive crash-ball merchants, that can just be one dimensional. It helps if one of them is (something England has covered in Manu Tuilagi), but there is still a place for a clever ball player (with sufficient defesive abilities). For the record, plenty of the guys quoted were under 6'ft4".

Conrad Smith 6ft 1in 14st 12lb
Pat McCabe 6ft 1in 14st 7lb
Maxime Mermoz 5ft 11in 14st 2lb
Gordon D’Arcy 5ft 11in 14st 8lb

I agree but also the players you mention are not out of the 'extremely' powerful mould either with the exception of Conrad Smith who I believe is very powerful. 6'1" is not a bad size but once a centre gets to be sub-6'0" then he is starting to look under powered compared to most in top test rugby.

The good news is there are now plenty of centres I wouldn't mind seeing playing for England. The 'safe' selection is Barritt/Tuilagi.

It seems to me that Barritt has been moving between 12 and 13 for Sarries this season, and to a lesser degree Tuilagi has already done that for England (defending at 12). My concern about Barritt at 12 is where is the creativity?

I woudn't mind giving Tuilagi a go at 12 with Trinder outside (the obvious next OC - got a game changing talent Lowe just doesn't).

The fourth centre, an IC, would be Twelvetrees, Farrell or Banahan, depending on who shows the best form for the next 6 weeks (writing Banahan off at IC when he has played so little there even for his club seems premature).

The other really exciting talent in English rugby who has a real chance of playing for the senior side within the year is JJ, but he needs more club game time first. May would also be a possibility but needs to specialise at centre - at present, like Addison, he's all over the place.

Tuilagi, Trinder, Twelvetrees, Farrell, JJ, then Daly coming though, and May and Addison both also packing serious talent. All of the OCs have the skillset to play IC too.

Centre is going to be a position of real stregnth for England over the next decade.

DaveM wrote:It seems to me that Barritt has been moving between 12 and 13 for Sarries this season, and to a lesser degree Tuilagi has already done that for England (defending at 12). My concern about Barritt at 12 is where is the creativity?

Barritt has only played 13 once this season and he spent almost the whole of that game positioned at IC.

If you're not sure where the creativity would come from with Barritt at 12, you can't be watching him play that much. He often crops up at first receiver for Saracens, despite sharing the midfield with 2 FHs, and his crisp long passes to Farrell or the back three have earnt them more than a few tries this season. If, as Saracens have done this season, you put an attacking FH inside him and ask him to do more than just take the ball up, he can more than deliver.

Barritt and Manu all the way. Manu, is the best English centre by some distance and Barritt is in such good form he must be selected. Trinder would be a good understudy to Manu where as Allen would have been the best option after Barritt but the idiot cut his thumb open and is out until January.

The criticism of Youngs is harsh. He was clearly not fit at the rwc and is still only 21, he has shown some serious brilliance and I'm sure he'll be back to his best soon. Hopefully starting against Ulster on Saturday.

When I say moving between 12 and 13 I mean during games. And, whilst Sarries are undoubtably trying to play a more expansive game this season (and credit to them for that) they've only been partially successful, with their excellent wingers and Goode still somewhat under-employed.

When Sarries truely unleash their backline then the IC will probably be England's IC. I'm pretty sure this will happen. and whether Barritt or Farrell is that man we'll have to wait and see. When Tomkins establishes himself at OC (as he's surely been signed to do) the two of them will be competing for one slot.

Having said that, whatever the merits of Barritt and Farrell, I can imagine an incoming England coach making a statement of intent and going straight for Farrell at 12.

englandglory4ever wrote:I can't believe I've just read some of the very recent posts on powerful centres.

So, Nonu, Rougerie, JdV, Fourie, Roberts, JD2, etc. are not powerful? Do me a favour. These guys are hugely powerful. Several are 6'4" for a start. Don't you lot know anything about rugby? Just because you watch them on tele I can assure you they are not as small as you obviously think.

Sorry, but do you know anything about rugby? It is pretty hilarious that you think picking big powerful men is the only way to win your matches. Like I said, please pick Bananaman and Tuilagi as your partnership, as the opposition I would love that. I'm sure Banahan will bring out the best in Tuilagi

You are naming random centres. If you actually look at the partnerships, there is usually one bigger, more direct runner and one player who is the better distributor/smarter player. Just picking two big 7 foot tall players isn't the same as the world class centre partnerships. Honestly you are the one who seems very naive about rugby, and thinking you know more about it than anyone who disagrees with your opinion that everyone must be big. It is not the size that counts, it is how you use it

"Barritt and Manu all the way. Manu, is the best English centre by some distance and Barritt is in such good form he must be selected"

Can anyone else see the irony there

GeordieFalcon wrote:"Barritt and Manu all the way. Manu, is the best English centre by some distance and Barritt is in such good form he must be selected"

Can anyone else see the irony there

Hey!... they both qualify, what the hell.......

Hape, Tuilagi, Farrell and Allen.

englandglory4ever wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:I can't believe I've just read some of the very recent posts on powerful centres.

So, Nonu, Rougerie, JdV, Fourie, Roberts, JD2, etc. are not powerful? Do me a favour. These guys are hugely powerful. Several are 6'4" for a start. Don't you lot know anything about rugby? Just because you watch them on tele I can assure you they are not as small as you obviously think.

I think the point he is making is that BOTH centres in a team don't need to be massive crash-ball merchants, that can just be one dimensional. It helps if one of them is (something England has covered in Manu Tuilagi), but there is still a place for a clever ball player (with sufficient defesive abilities). For the record, plenty of the guys quoted were under 6'ft4".

Conrad Smith 6ft 1in 14st 12lb
Pat McCabe 6ft 1in 14st 7lb
Maxime Mermoz 5ft 11in 14st 2lb
Gordon D’Arcy 5ft 11in 14st 8lb

I agree but also the players you mention are not out of the 'extremely' powerful mould either with the exception of Conrad Smith who I believe is very powerful. 6'1" is not a bad size but once a centre gets to be sub-6'0" then he is starting to look under powered compared to most in top test rugby.

So you've disproved your own point. You don't need extreme power in both centres - you need sufficient power, and preferably one guy who is very powerful. A player doesn't need to be massive to have sufficient power for international rugby. In which case, England don't need to pick Banahan just because he's the biggest player available. Brad Barritt is similar size to all the players named above (in fact I think he's slightly bigger), and Allen is the same size as Mermoz. An England midfield of either player alongside Manu Tuilagi would be fine.

He has appeared on the wing

At academy level. He's played at most twice for the first team in the wing. I think both were due to injuries and he was on the bench.

"You don't need extreme power in both centres "

If you want to win RWCs against the best teams in the world you do mate. In fact you need power across the whole team. Power does not mean size necessarily but it helps.

Quoting players like BOD, Darcy, Allen, Mermoz etc. just proves my point. They all play in teams that have never won a RWC and never will do unless they have power as well as skill.