ATP World Tour Finals 2011, London Calling

First topic message reminder :

Here we go again!

Final tournament for the best 8 of 2011: Djokovic, Nadal, Murray, Federer, Ferrer, Berdych, Tsonga, Fish.


Some call it the 5th slam, some see it as an exhibiton, as for me, it presents as a super opportunity to expereience some more tennis thrill before the Christmas off-season, to see, hopefully some good matches and the legends of the game, LIVE!!!!

This time last year, the weather was awful, tube drivers were striking, 606v2 didn't exist, I had a near-death experience, and Nole managed to put TWO lenses in one eye and was considered by most to be a one slam wonder....


Haven't things changed in the meantime ?

So, I'm taking this last opportunity of 2011 to:

1) watch tennis in GMT time-zone and not have to wear massive bags under my eyes every morning
2) see a civilized scenario of 2 matches a day (must say a perfect portion!)
3) enjoy seeing those matches in the packed O2 arena every day for every match


And because one never knows what another day may bring, who may or may not be in London this time next year, because above all we all love tennis, let's enjoy the last stop of this 2011 quirky, cosy tennis ride, let the WTF commence


Order of play for Sunday, 18th of November 2011:

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Finals/2011.aspx


P.S.

There will be a few people form this forum going to O2 next week. Please find a bit of time to give us your first-hand impressions and perhaps photos and personal anecdotes.

God willing, I'll be there on Sunday and Monday evening sessions.

lydian wrote:Well played JWT, but surprised it went to a TB really.
Marcus Buckland "What a set of tennis"...dont think so!

why not? What did you expect?

Nadal's stats may look decent but his court positioning and low percentage play is just not gonna cut it.

This is how Rafa plays when he is low on confidence.

This looks eerily similar to 2009.

Oh he is Tenez, this is abject stuff...he looks completely impotent, as he has done all week. Doesnt even look that well either...paler than the white lines on the court. No pep, or buzz in his game at all...and his stock in trade FH is terrible.

Nadal is trying to take the ball earlier and that pushes him in UEs and not quite guetting the length right. In fact he seems bent on maximising the spin at teh expense of placement...which is typically his game. It works well when the element like wind, bad bounce kills the rhythm of his opponents further but indoors, he becomes an easy target.

NITB, I expected JWT to mop that set up easily given Nadal's level...but Tsonga didnt capitalised on those early Nadal service games when he had leads in them.

lydian wrote:Oh he is Tenez, this is abject stuff...he looks completely impotent, as he has done all week. Doesnt even look that well either...paler than the white lines on the court. No pep, or buzz in his game at all...and his stock in trade FH is terrible.

Even Tsonga looks pale with this lighting. Regarding his FH, it has always been a poor shot for me...but hey each to their own.

lydian wrote:NITB, I expected JWT to mop that set up easily given Nadal's level...but Tsonga didnt capitalised on those early Nadal service games when he had leads in them.

Tsonga's playing very aggressively and serving very well. It's not easy to play him when he dictates play. Nadal's doing well to absorb it all, but in the TB the better server won. Nadal will be wanting to break Tsonga, if he does that he'll win the match.

Nadal's length to be fair hasnt been great most of the year but its really bad tonight. I think he can actually take the ball early without this level of UEs...I've watched him often enough to know he's a literally pale shadow of himself at the moment. I mean that FH then...geez.

Tsonga is so much more talented than Nadal...but so much less focused and disciplined. No plan or strategy.

It's clearly the pace of Tsonga shots that are affecting Nadal's FH.

Nadal lost the first set, clearly must be injured. If he wins the next 2, it'll have nothing to do with Tsonga's dip in play

I'm not getting into the talent argument, we've been there before and Tsonga has 0 slams, etc...no-one watching this can believe this is peak Nadal, or anywhere near it.

NITB, agree Tsonga's playing aggressively but I've seen him play better than this...he's just not doing enough to really hurt Nadal given the opportunity that's there on a plate. But Nadal is clinging on nonetheless...

I agree with Tenez about the lighting. All of the players look pale in this arena.

If Nadal takes to the court then he is fit to play. No excuses. I'm getting tired of the constant excuse making.

Having said that, Nadal is clearly out of form. He's playing to deep. He has no penetration on his FH. There is no variety. The dtl and i/o FH's have completely gone AWOL.

He's spinning his serves in too much.

Don't even get me started on the BH.

This is classically how Nadal plays when he is short of confidence.

However, it's not inconceivable that he could play himself into form just like at the FO and USO.

How is Nadal on a plate?
Because he has lost his confidence and his shots are not all landing on the line like in 2009?

Nice volley from JWT...playing well around the net tonight.

Tsonga is such a raw volleyer, love it!

NITB, as emancipator says Nadal is massively low on confidence and very much out of form...that puts him on a plate for others to beat. Fair point about the lighting.

As for who's more talented, let's just say...

I'd rather go with the guy who's got 10 slams and the second highest winning percentage in ATP history.

All of the top players can hit flashy winners. To be able to do it when it matters and with regularity is the only thing that counts.

In that respect, Rafa is far ahead of Tsonga.

emancipator wrote:As for who's more talented, let's just say...

I'd rather go with the guy who's got 10 slams and the second highest winning percentage in ATP history.

All of the top players can hit flashy winners. To be able to do it when it matters and with regularity is the only thing that counts.

In that respect, Rafa is far ahead of Tsonga.

SO you measure beauty by the number of men a woman slept with? That's an idea.

77mph serve...

lydian wrote:77mph serve...

but 77000rpm. Are you just discovering Nadal's game?

lydian wrote:77mph serve...

Saving himself for Ferrer

Josiah Maiestas wrote:

lydian wrote:77mph serve...

Saving himself for Ferrer

Tenez wrote:

emancipator wrote:As for who's more talented, let's just say...

I'd rather go with the guy who's got 10 slams and the second highest winning percentage in ATP history.

All of the top players can hit flashy winners. To be able to do it when it matters and with regularity is the only thing that counts.

In that respect, Rafa is far ahead of Tsonga.

SO you measure beauty by the number of men a woman slept with? That's an idea.

That's not an apt example.

I said 'to be able to do it when it matters and with regularity' meaning to be able to hit great shots regularly when the stakes are high, as opposed to hitting lots of great shots in a low pressure, low stakes match. If I had meant the latter then your exaple would have been apt.

My initial wording wasn't very clear.

TBH, this is a poor quality match.

15:15 vintage Rafa!

agree emanc...its that bad its in danger of playing Nadal into form, lol
But seriously where has his i/o FH gone?

That was a better game from Nadal. He was playing closer to the baseline and hitting his FH deeper. It makes a world of difference. Tsonga had no answers.

IT's a good example cause beauty and talent are difficult to measure and you can;t measure by any tangible factor. To win slams you need much more than talent, especially nowadays. So measuring talent by teh number of slams is completely absurd. On the thread about the most talented players Fed and Nalbandian came 1st and 2nd for most (including you I believe) posters here. Yet one has 16 slams teh other none.

Nadal turning the heat on, Tsonga's got to hold his serve now!

OMG what an insane FH from Tsonga.

Tenez wrote:IT's a good example cause beauty and talent are difficult to measure and you can;t measure by any tangible factor. To win slams you need much more than talent, especially nowadays. So measuring talent by teh number of slams is completely absurd. On the thread about the most talented players Fed and Nalbandian came 1st and 2nd for most (including you I believe) posters here. Yet one has 16 slams teh other none.

I actually believe that Nalby is a unique case.

His talent is obvious. Tsonga I don't think is in the same league.

Unfortunately I don't agree with you regarding Nadal. Noone can be so successful without having an incredible amount of talent.

Warwick Davis would even hold serve against this amazing Tsonga..

Woooooweeeeeeeeee

Another Tsonga FH!

With Tsonga slightly droping form, yuo can see Nadal finding better length and having more time to inject pace and power on his FHs.

This is so typical. No different than so many matches v Nadal.

Brilliant passing shot from Tsonga!

JWT plays pretty brainless tennis a lot of the time.

IT's a good example cause beauty and talent are difficult to measure and you can;t measure by any tangible factor. To win slams you need much more than talent, especially nowadays. So measuring talent by teh number of slams is completely absurd. On the thread about the most talented players Fed and Nalbandian came 1st and 2nd for most (including you I believe) posters here. Yet one has 16 slams teh other none.

I think a lot of people confuse being talented with having the prettiest shots, myself included sometimes. That's why the likes of Federer, Nalbandian and Gasquet will always appear at the top of those lists. Say, as an example, you were the most talented player in the world, but were taught by a coach who gave you an ugly style. That wouldn't make you any less talented! I doubt Nadal, for instance, devised his heavy topspin forehand himself; it was probably Uncle Toni (or whoever taught him when he was a youngster) who told him that that was the best way to hit the ball. With that in mind, I think talent is incredibly hard to measure. Is talent the ability to play the occasional amazing match and smash away flashy winners, or is it the ability to keep the ball in on those crucial points and win the tight matches? Since the aim of tennis is to win, you could simply say that the most talented players are the ones that are the best at doing just that.

Nadal's is starting to play better, dont agree JWT's form is dropping though, I'd expect you to say that

Yep BB, he's not the greatest thinker out there. All part of the talent Tenez talks about no doubt.

bogbrush wrote:JWT plays pretty brainless tennis a lot of the time.

that's a bit harsh BB, he's the anti-grinder and we are all too used to it these days that anyone different looks a bit of a brainless basher.

Chazz - There is no confusion at all. Talent is about making something difficult look easy....and that in itself, is naturally pleasing to the eye.

A well timed SHBH for instance looks dead easy...therefore "aesthetic" or pleasing to the eye, yet it bloody difficult.

That's how we have been conditioned in the billion of years that were needed to make us.

That's what I always say Chazfazzer, talent means nothing without the W. Talent is the W.

Is Tsonga getting tired?

noleisthebest wrote:

bogbrush wrote:JWT plays pretty brainless tennis a lot of the time.

that's a bit harsh BB, he's the anti-grinder and we are all too used to it these days that anyone different looks a bit of a brainless basher.

I stand by it, but I like watching it.

lydian wrote:Nadal's is starting to play better, dont agree JWT's form is dropping though, I'd expect you to say that

Yep BB, he's not the greatest thinker out there. All part of the talent Tenez talks about no doubt.

So no stomach injury then?

X factor fist-pump from Nadal

Rafa's pumped. I haven't seen him do one of those knee raised fist pumps for a while

noleisthebest wrote:Is Tsonga getting tired?

Of course and then suddenly Nadal has more time to hit his shots and cut his UEs. Lydian is a long time Nadal fan, but we seem to know Nadal better than him.

Shameful from Tsonga as normal

Tenez wrote:That's how we have been conditioned in the billion of years that were needed to make us.

Try telling that to roman gladiators with flashy strokes who got killed by others with the ability to find the weaknesses. We've been conditioned in sport (and sport came from combat) to praise the winner. At the end of the day in serious competition it really is about winning. That's how talent is really judged.