ATP World Tour Finals 2011, London Calling

First topic message reminder :

nitb, be logical for once, he has been an embarrassment to what he plays, why negate it?

But Lydian, Federer was doing this - and more - year after year without apparent ill effects.

Nadal and Djokovic would be able to do the same had not the game slowed down so much and forced each of them to adopt the hugely physical approach.
That USO was insane and I'm not surprised they suffered for it - both men were completely spent and it was decided on Rafas cramps, although had he not had them it would have been Djokovic's exhaustion that decided the day. Not really how you'd expect a 4th set to go?

It's not that thw two players were meeting, it is their style. Had Sampras met Henman in 10 consecutive matches they'd be undamaged afterwards.

Its think its both BB - number of matches and style, and specifically them meeting each other, their matches have a history of nearly always being brutal - Madrid 09 anyone...?

Yes Fed has played lots of matches in the past but the field in 05/06/07 is not what it is today, nor are the conditions. Federer has always been a baseliner himself pretty much, had he been 24-25 now and not having to skip as many events I think he'd be suffering much more as he'd be having to grind alot more than yesteryear.

Yep, I think USO11 killed them both off for the rest of the season, it took huge amounts of physical and mental reserves out of them both. Its probably hard to understand how hard it pushed both players unless we were actually in the match. The ATP/ITF have to wake up to the gruelling conditions for sure or risk each WTF being dictated by those guys who are freshest - Federer doing well is one thing but we wouldnt normally expect Berdych and Ferrer in the semis at the expense of the top 3!

But wasn't Federer able to play as many matches as Rafa and Djokovic in teh past in that same crammed period? reaching finals of TMS and finals of 4 slams...yet arrive in Shanghai and still win it? He did it again in 2009 though he did not wn WTF in 2009, he was mighty close...despite playing Basle as well.

So Nadal and Djoko have only themselves to blame for not being able to complete a full season. It can be done but they'd need to a big dose of what makes things difficult look easy: talent.

This is the difference and this why Federer can play the same number of matches than the top 2, at 30, yet being able to scoop the 5th biggest title out there after a gruelling season. Even being able to play and win 15 matches in the last 28 days, a fith of the yearly matches played in just a month!

It's no different than Federer having consistent result over a 8 years period while Djoko and Nadal struggle to line up 2 successful sseasons in a row. Their physical game has allowed both to have an amzing season, but it comes at a price...it's only fair they pay this price. You see it as "unlucky" but it's not.

Oh come on Lydian - last year the top four made the semis of the WTF, and the top 2 made the finals.

Sometimes in sport the unexpected happens, and it shouldn't be a shock that Berdych and Tsonga did so well - the former threatened a lot in 2010 and Tsonga has this year. It is not like they are both ranked 49 and 50.

Fed has, as NITB pointed out in another post, competed well spanning two generations. I am sorry but I don't see why we have to change rules when Rafa can't win everything.

Your argument holds no weight at all in this instance as I think we will all see when we watch Rafa win two bo5 matches on clay at home later this week with oodles of chutzpah and energy!

I didn't put those rolling eyes smileys in - do they automatically appear if you type 'oh come on'??

Obviously not

Yes TP, those players have been threatening indeed.
My main point here is the same as being made elsewhere, something needs to give on tour otherwise the WTF will be blighted by injuries, etc, in future. The game is not getting faster, there are not any new "Federer's" coming along (so why keep focusin on him from a bygone era almost) with similar styles. The current conditions are breeding a new generation of physical players (with talent, but physical nonetheless)...and until something changes we'll be having the same discussions each year now. The courts are still getting SLOWER...the WTF this year was slower than last, other courts this year have been commented on as slower too (e.g. Federer talking about USO?). The game is headed in the wrong direction. And whilst we have people dominating the tour with 1 style of play (due to conditions), each WTF is going to be similarly affected. This isnt about the players per se, its about the future of tennis.

Yes Tenez, its fair they pay this price, I've said 3-4 times now they're victims of their own success, but the style of tennis from the conditions is creating more victims and will continue to do so. The tour is increasingly different to the one even Roger played on 5 years ago...I dont believe we all think the tour is perfect right now?

Well I think you have answered your own question Lydian - it seems that for the sake of all players' health, it would be advisable to look at speeding up the courts slightly.

The schedule can be tweaked maybe but if you start losing tournaments because they lack support, these guys won't end up being paid so much anyway - they don't seem to join those dots! Federer has managed his schedule well, the others perhaps have to look at how they manage theirs.

the tour is run for the many - not the few - or that certainly should be the case.

Agreed TP, its about money (and always was actually in Open Era).
Lets not forget Federer gets exemptions too due to his length on tour so can skip events without being penalised the same...for other players they have too many mandatory committments as they chase Bo18 ranking system and 8 mandatory TMS (MC optional).

I still think its a dual problem though...speed and schedule.

"Again, we should not say Federer should not lose against players like Tsonga cause the fact is that Tsonga on form can beat anyone. I don’t know anyone who has that mixture of flair and power. That makes him both inconsistent but deadly too."

Very well said. It must be very difficult to play against Tsonga knowing that he can suddenly unleash - mid-rally - a monster shot from behind the baseline.
Your rarely see Fed being hurried into forced errors from the sheer hitting power of his opponent. He just had to hang in there, hold serve, and hope that Tsonga would miss or muck it up. A consistent Tsonga, with his hitting, would be number one, but the really big hitters can make the top 10 but rarely make the top five. Other posters have mentioned Gonzo, and Soderling, of course, is another awesome hitter.
Fed could, and should, have won in straight sets, but in some ways the three-set win was of more benefit to him as it showed he could guts it out. Too error-strewn to be regarded as a great match, it certainly did not lack for drama. Fed was tired? I was tired just watching it.

I agree with the general consensus that it would definitely help to speed up the courts.

It doesn't have to be a drastic change, even a subtle change would make a difference.

Certainly the USO, Paris masters (have you ever seen a slower HC?) and the WTF played slower this year.

They should also stop trying to speed up RG, it's meant to be a slow, high bouncing clay court, albeit I'm aware that the balls were the main factor this year.

lydian wrote:Agreed TP, its about money (and always was actually in Open Era).
Lets not forget Federer gets exemptions too due to his length on tour so can skip events without being penalised the same...for other players they have too many mandatory committments as they chase Bo18 ranking system and 8 mandatory TMS (MC optional).

I still think its a dual problem though...speed and schedule.

I think he was exempted for the first time in 2009? Rafa has the same priveleges this year - Fed missed Shanghai and Rafa missed Paris. In a few years, Novak and Andy will also be accorded the same.

Anyway, it's not all about the top four

No it isnt about the top 4, hence if they make events optional the lower players can enter the ones they want to, and if thats all of them because they dont go deep often then fine. But for the top players I think they need to reduce the mandatory schedule.

Agreed emancipator, changing the balls alone would help alot. It seems crazy to me to want to slow down USO and speed up FO...why? What made tennis interesting down the years was the difference the game had across the globe...and the fact it was truly difficult to win all slams - hence the fact no-one since Borg could win FO and SW19, it was hard for a reason! So tennis was a unique sport in that respect of difference. Indeed, seeing specialists on each surface was great...we got to see "unusual" players like Berasategui on clay, Simerink on fast, etc. Now its all the same grind. I like the attitude Nadal brings to tennis (personally) but I dont want to see a tour full of similar guys...viva la difference!

lydian wrote:viva la difference!

D'accord!

lydian - your post at 11.04, which was (largely) a response to one of mine, has some well-reasoned points

The nature of the challenge faced by Rafa and Novak in 2011 was, I agree, rather unusual, in so far as the season turned into something of an ongoing deja-vu duel between two players fighting it out for the big spoils.

At the highest level of any sport the very best are determined by their ability to deal with the circumstances and opposition of their particular era. When Borg, Connors and McEnroe were around it seemed as though tennis had never been tougher. But then Sampras came along, we marvelled at his apparent invincibility on grass as he overhauled Borg's Wimbledon tally. His overall Slam record looked very safe until Federer arrived. Fed took the game to a new level and many players who might otherwise have claimed a Slam title (or two...) found him too much to handle.

Bogbrush & Tenez have alluded to Federer's past achievements. In his peak he was routinely winning in excess of ten titles annually. He did so in three successive years and for two of those years he won 3 Slams and Masters/WTF titles too. Rafa and Novak have also won ten titles in a year but so far only once each. And the fact that they are now mentally fatigued shows just how tough it is. They are in their prime and should be enjoying their tennis rather than being drained by it

So yes, I agree that their playing style is very gruelling but if their game is built around a strategy of battering each other into submission what else can we expect ?

The homogenisation of surface is bad for the game, I'm definitely with you on that.

I still believe that Rafa and Novak have given us some great stuff this year. They have raised the bar and brought new physicality to the game. But - and it's a big but - if they are finding it impossible to finish the season strongly, in the way that others have managed before them, then I'd say that they must look to themselves first and matters of surface/calendar second.

Good points lags72. I would argue it was easier for Fed to win those 10 titles per year then than now...he didnt have peak Nadal or Djokovic to contend with, but he could only beat who was infront of him. We have people like Tenez arguing that Federer is now a better player in 2011 than 2006 and yet his on tour results are a shadow of what they used to be in terms of titles, he hasnt won a slam for nearly 2 years now...so this reinforces the point that he would have found it so much harder to make those previous achievements now - and if playing the same number of matches in todays conditions I'm sure he would be feeling it more at year end also. That said, we know 2011 was a very unusual year for Nadal/Djokovic...doubt we'll see that again.

Lydian, Fed is improved because the tennis has chnaged. I dont think tennis was this much power based and baseline duel during the years fed went on to accumulate all those slams.
Nadal, Djoko and Murray has chaged the whole complex of the game and Fed has done well to keep up the pace with them. His lack of slam is because of peak nadal and peak djoko whereas fed despite of improving is not a peak fed.

wow wrote:Lydian, Fed is improved because the tennis has chnaged. I dont think tennis was this much power based and baseline duel during the years fed went on to accumulate all those slams.
Nadal, Djoko and Murray has chaged the whole complex of the game and Fed has done well to keep up the pace with them. His lack of slam is because of peak nadal and peak djoko whereas fed despite of improving is not a peak fed.

well said, wow

pleasure is mine. btw I really liked woofie's site

wow wrote: pleasure is mine. btw I really liked woofie's site

me, too, always have a good laugh

Agree wow, but feel he would have struggled much more in 2006 against these current guys...but we'll never know. Yep, wooffie's site is a good one.

lydian wrote:Agree wow, but feel he would have struggled much more in 2006 against these current guys...but we'll never know. Yep, wooffie's site is a good one.

Yes but the current guys would not have played as tough now had teh 2006 players not brought the level to new sphere then already. So there is no merit for today's player to play a more "efficient" game than the previous era. What really matters is how you dominate your era and for how long.


Had Djoko and Nadal been born in 1981 like Federer, they woudl have learned a different game with the then technology and diet.

lydian wrote:Agree wow, but feel he would have struggled much more in 2006 against these current guys...but we'll never know. Yep, wooffie's site is a good one.

Lydian, you are the best Nadal fan I have met on tennis forums.

lol wow, cheers. Glad you added a drumroll given the musical origin of my username too!

Fair points actually Tenez.

I'm not sure what to make of Federer's tennis during this tournament. I keep re-watching the Nadal match and I can't get my head around it, I don't think I've ever seen anything so supernatural in tennis. Fed's movement and effortless power, placement etc., was Art. He's never off-balance and every time he opens up the court he's ready for the counter-reaction. Poetry.
But in other matches he was quite poor, couldn't seem to find his rhythm over long stretches.

This is very strange on the ATP site....

Did Federer win two matches at WTF 2011 against Nadal, or the 6-0 gave him an extra credit?

https://imgur.com/TwA4g

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=F324&oId=N409

Clearly a complete aberration by a member of their admin team - but a weird one at that !

Conspiracy theories, here we come .....

Dread to think just what sort of comment this would have generated from some of the more rabid/childish members on the old 606 who spent their lives prattling on about the H2H, they would have had an absolute field day ......

lags72 wrote:Clearly a complete aberration by a member of their admin team - but a weird one at that !

What a faux-pas?

lags72 wrote:Conspiracy theories, here we come .....

Dread to think just what sort of comment this would have generated from some of the more rabid/childish members on the old 606 who spent their lives prattling on about the H2H, they would have had an absolute field day ......

Yes, the h2h analysts of GOATness would have jumped up and down?

Now it has been corrected...

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=N409&oId=F324

Thought it wouldn't take long. The site has a lot of followers !

It's a high quality, well-presented site ; indeed one of the very best official sites in the wider world of professional sport. The ATP stats & editorial team put together a lot of material, scores and news, it's always updated pretty swiftly and I think overall they do a fine job.

(That'll be $100 please ATP .... )