Six Nations: France v England Thread

[Cymroglan]

First topic message reminder :

TEAM LINE-UPS
France : 15-Clement Poitrenaud, 14-Vincent Clerc, 13-Aurelien Rougerie, 12-Wesley Fofana, 11-Julien Malzieu, 10-Lionel Beauxis, 9-Julien Dupuy; 1-Jean-Baptiste Poux, 2-Dimitri Szarzewski, 3-Nicolas Mas, 4-Pascal Pape, 5-Yoann Maestri, 6-Thierry Dusautoir (captain), 7-Julien Bonnaire, 8-Imanol Harinordoquy.

Replacements: 16-William Servat, 17-Vincent Debaty, 18-Lionel Nallet, 19-Louis Picamoles, 20-Morgan Parra, 21-Francois Trinh-Duc, 22-Maxime Mermoz

England : 15-Ben Foden, 14-Chris Ashton, 13-Manu Tuilagi, 12-Brad Barritt, 11-Charlie Sharples, 10-Owen Farrell, 9-Lee Dickson; 1-Alex Corbisiero, 2-Dylan Hartley, 3-Dan Cole, 4-Mouritz Botha, 5-Geoff Parling, 6-Tom Croft, 7-Chris Robshaw, 8-Ben Morgan

Replacements: 16-Rob Webber, 17-Matt Stevens, 18-Tom Palmer, 19-Phil Dowson, 20-Ben Youngs, 21-Charlie Hodgson, 22-Mike Brown

MATCH OFFICIALS
Referee: Alain Rolland (France)

Touch judges: Nigel Owens (Wales), John Lacey (Ireland)

TV: Jim Yuille (Scotland)

[lostinwales]

Boys, best game of the 6N? Great game? In reality all 3 this weekend were snoozefests!!!

Seriously?! i thought the Ireland/Scotland match was a corker!

Yep - loved Ireland Scotland. Wales Italy was a bit of a snoozefest. This afternoon was 'emotional'

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Ill be honest I dont think England were that great, France were pretty poor.

Its another step forward, but the result bigger than the performance. The TV team were as gushing as ever, and fell over themsleves to praise farrell right before he faded out of the game and saw his tactical kicking and decision making go to pot.
They still relied on France gifting them the opportunities two of the three tries. But at last one that can be said to have been created by Englands play, and the other two scored by individual brilliance.
Farrell was solid for the first 60 minutes, brilliant first kick. Morgan a beast, its just the fitness of the two for 8- minutes that still worries me.
The problems havent gone away either though. They still seem to lack any real flair from set play, and end up looking to kick possession. Weve always known England backs can kill teams in broken play and with turnovers, but Im not comfortable with the side playing purely for opposition mistakes. England also got hammered in the penalty count. Ashton a mixed bag ande not good enough, the penalty on him was just annoying.
Yellow card was harsh in the context of the one that wasnt given, and the one in the Scotland game not given) and the freak injury made Frances late try a lot easier to score so we cant call this win lucky, if anything France had the rub of things.

[yappysnap]

Well played England.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Jebus, i dont care how France or England played to be honest. The telling fact is that England went to Paris and beat the French, thats pretty special in my books.

England have won 3 out of the last 4 in France, its really not that special

[yappysnap]

Ill be honest I dont think England were that great, France were pretty poor.

Its another step forward, but the result bigger than the performance. The TV team were as gushing as ever, and fell over themsleves to praise farrell right before he faded out of the game and saw his tactical kicking and decision making go to pot.
They still relied on France gifting them the opportunities two of the three tries. But at last one that can be said to have been created by Englands play, and the other two scored by individual brilliance.
Farrell was solid for the first 60 minutes, brilliant first kick. Morgan a beast, its just the fitness of the two for 8- minutes that still worries me.
The problems havent gone away either though. They still seem to lack any real flair from set play, and end up looking to kick possession. Weve always known England backs can kill teams in broken play and with turnovers, but Im not comfortable with the side playing purely for opposition mistakes. England also got hammered in the penalty count. Ashton a mixed bag ande not good enough, the penalty on him was just annoying.
Yellow card was harsh in the context of the one that wasnt given, and the one in the Scotland game not given) and the freak injury made Frances late try a lot easier to score so we cant call this win lucky, if anything France had the rub of things.

Agree with all of that.

But with only Hodgeson on the bench to cover 10 i'm glad Farrell stayed, his kicking from hand was pretty kack at the end and he did it too often, but I would have had zero confidence in Charlie. Woud have been interesting to see how Flood dealt with the pressure.

Dowson and Palmer really aren't viable bench players, look at who france had in comparison. I suppose in the future with Wood, Lawes and Hask back the bench will be much stronger.

There are still issues but the team played well, we're perfecting the offensive defence and it's working. Need to cut out the silly penalties especiallywhen under no presure, oddly when the pressure was on we gave very little away. Then we need to work on opening teams up from first phase ball, Manu needs to pass more when he gets round the defence on the outside, twice he had a winger in space out side him and decided to take the ball to the deck. After this I'd like to see Barritt do more then be a flanker in the backline, some actual grubbers or passes would be good. Lastly please try out Foden on the wing against Ireland with Brown at 15, the Irish are likely to kick a lot so this could work really well and Ashton is just going down hill.

[thomh]

No the margin changes if the opposition score points

Eh.....If England win by 20, then it doesn't matter if the scoreline is 20-0, 25-5, or 37-17, they'll still win by 20. Geddit?

No the For and Against margin is used in both games.
Wales are on +38 now but by next week that could change considerably.
If France Score a load of points next Sat then the points difference could be considerably less between England and Wales.

What?

Wales are 38 ahead of England on points difference, so if Wales' points difference drops by 19 (losing by 19 points) and England's improves by 20 (winning by 20 points), then England would be ahead on points difference by 1.

I'm not sure what point you're making.

[niwatts]

After this I'd like to see Barritt do more then be a flanker in the backline, some actual grubbers or passes would be good.

He passed more often than he ran with the ball today, not least to Croft for his try. I'm pretty sure he put at least one grubber through as well.

[Hound_of_Harrow]

I'm still very happy and just about compus mentis .

What's with all the pedantics about points difference; there will not be a 39 point swing in England's favour next weekend, based on what I've seen.

In 2008 a tide of emotion from both team and crowd carried Wales to a slam. The same thing will happen if the team stay focussed. The crowd will do their bit.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

After this I'd like to see Barritt do more then be a flanker in the backline, some actual grubbers or passes would be good.

He passed more often than he ran with the ball today, not least to Croft for his try. I'm pretty sure he put at least one grubber through as well.

According to the ESPN stats he kicked none, passed 7 and ran 6 ( for only 10 meters)
It was Farrell kicking the ball away as usual this time, although I thought Barrit had chipped one. Whatever England need to get the ball to Tuilagi Foden and Ashton as much as possible if Morgan hasnt got it.

Looking purely at the stats England were virtualy playing with 14 men even when sharples was on the field, 3 posessions..2 tackles ( plus 2 missed) On that evidence its pretty obvious why Lancaster picked Strettle, although Im beginging to think they should pick another flanker there. The rare time they did get the ball out wide in a scoring chance it was a forward who ran it in.

[majesticimperialman]

I thought that when Trinduc went for that drop goal, that England was going to lose like they did against Wales.

England did well to hang on today and get the win. But in all honesty, they realy do need to cut out those stupid penaltis.

[yappysnap]

It has often been said that you should just have flankers in every position, and we do have the likes of Wood, Haskal etc to come in...

Maybe I was a little harsh on Barritt, but either way we need to figure out how to use wingers. You'd think a pro team would be able to wouldn't you?

[yappysnap]

Tbh the first two pens were 50/50 at best. The "popping up" in the scrum was marginal and both front rows went up at the same time also neither was going forwards, Rolland happily reset the scrum when the French stood up.

Ashtons pen was again a matter of interpritaton, he was being a dick, but if we're going to pen players for that then Birgimasco would have been penalised off the park yesterday for exactly the same thing and dozens of others would have been too over the season.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Would be interesting to know which law he penalised Hartley for standing up under...

[ultra]

I am absoloutely convinced this seabiscuit fella is actually stuart barnes.....england will never be as good as when he was there!! the single most important stat is this...france 300 ish caps, england 70. again englands schoolboy pack were not dominated in any shape or form. we won. away. in paris...yay!!

Obviously just because france were shoit

[PJHolybloke]

Only 70 caps in the entire team?!!

Surely not.

[niwatts]

After this I'd like to see Barritt do more then be a flanker in the backline, some actual grubbers or passes would be good.

He passed more often than he ran with the ball today, not least to Croft for his try. I'm pretty sure he put at least one grubber through as well.

According to the ESPN stats he kicked none, passed 7 and ran 6 ( for only 10 meters)
It was Farrell kicking the ball away as usual this time, although I thought Barrit had chipped one. Whatever England need to get the ball to Tuilagi Foden and Ashton as much as possible if Morgan hasnt got it.

Looking purely at the stats England were virtualy playing with 14 men even when sharples was on the field, 3 posessions..2 tackles ( plus 2 missed) On that evidence its pretty obvious why Lancaster picked Strettle, although Im beginging to think they should pick another flanker there. The rare time they did get the ball out wide in a scoring chance it was a forward who ran it in.

The stats will change by tomorrow. When they do stats on the hoof for the big matches they review the recordings and the stats change on the Monday.

I might be wrong about the Barritt kick, but I'm almost certain he put a grubber through. We'll see tomorrow.

[ultra]

Only 70 caps in the entire team?!!

Surely not.

lord knows i can't remember exactly......beer and that taken into account......i'm sure it was a 3 to 1 ratio in cap numbers to france tho and i seem to remember them having between 200 - 230 caps, sure it was. was it? 3-1 anyway......!!!

[Cymroglan]

Italy have more caps than most but they are still in the running for the wooden spoon.

[ultra]

fair point....but i'm guessing you understand mine? Should be all good, surely? the two youngest teams in world rugby are british. both looking like they've got a goal. like i said on antother thread, wales are setting the pace but its good to know your sulky bigger brother isn't far behind. (sorry, talking rubbish - it was just that france were crap)

[maestegmafia]

Great work by Dowson saving the try France almost scored whilst risking his head.

I hope he is well but did notice how when the game was over a medic told him they had one and he didn't seem to know where he was.

Best wishes to him. I'm sure he will celebrate the win when he comes too and knows what day of the week it is..!

Probably around Wednesday, poor lad..!

[SimonofSurrey]

Just back home in Twickers from the game (thank you Eurostar).

France: wrong selections (where the hell were the proper half backs?) and started off as if running out on to the pitch in a straight line would guarantee victory. Harinodoquy was MOTM I assume because the French have a thing called Talent d'Or = French MOTM. They simply don't do non-French MOTMs. H Donkey, by the way, had a typical game for him - imperious in the line out (on both sides' ball), excellent in the scrum but in open play his usual cowardly self: seemed to fear the impact when cut down even by 3/4s and rarely made ground, hid at times on the wing as is his wont. Big Anglophobic gob, but - yet again - unable to raise his all round game to the next level (unlike eg Dusautoir - a brilliant player) when the going got tough.

England: very promising but far from perfect. 3 cracking tries and some good intent, excellent composure to hold on at the end but stupid penalties at silly times and some maddening carelessness in doing the basics. But a decent step forward. Played like the fifth/sixth best side in the world (ie in the mix with France and Ireland behind Wales and the SH3). Worth mentioning also this was France's 1st 6N home defeat since 2008 against ... England. But today won't mean much without another good performance (but not necessarily a win) against Ireland next week.

Rolland: should not be given any game featuring France - damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. Some curious calls against both sides, most but not all against England. Proved again he's a graduate, with 1st class Honours, of the Andre Watson school of scrum intepretation.

All round: nice day out. Much less noisy in the Stade de France than I expected. Pity we didn't get a chorus of Jerusalem - 80 minutes of only occasional 'Sweet Chariot' and 'Allez les Bleus' made for a dull and repetitive crowd. The French couldn't even summon a full rendition of the 'Marseillaise' when Fofana scored. NB for future visitors - beer in the stadium ok but v weak, so don't forget to get your one Euro deposit back on the hard plastic pint glasses: you only need 6 for a free pint .

Wales: congrats on the Championship and, probably, the GS. For those saying 'if only England hadn't conceded that late try at Twickenham...' that's rubbish. If they had held on for the draw and (a big if) beat Ireland next week, Wales still would win the Ch'ship, on merit, at a canter by a shedload of points if they ease past France next week as they surely will. Well done lads - start beating the big 3 SH sides regularly at home and more than once away and you really will have got yourselves a team to crow about.

Nighty night all.

[Cymroglan]

SimonofSurrey

[maestegmafia]

Well said simon

[Pot Hale]

No the margin changes if the opposition score points

Eh.....If England win by 20, then it doesn't matter if the scoreline is 20-0, 25-5, or 37-17, they'll still win by 20. Geddit?

No the For and Against margin is used in both games.
Wales are on +38 now but by next week that could change considerably.
If France Score a load of points next Sat then the points difference could be considerably less between England and Wales.

What?

Wales are 38 ahead of England on points difference, so if Wales' points difference drops by 19 (losing by 19 points) and England's improves by 20 (winning by 20 points), then England would be ahead on points difference by 1.

I'm not sure what point you're making.

He isn't. He's just a bit mixed up on the points difference thing.

[samuraidragon]

As Surrey Simon says, it was a poor selection by PSA. France were greatly improved when their bench came on, whereas England seemed diluted. Probably won't make the same mistake next weekend.

[Cymroglan]

No the margin changes if the opposition score points

Eh.....If England win by 20, then it doesn't matter if the scoreline is 20-0, 25-5, or 37-17, they'll still win by 20. Geddit?

No the For and Against margin is used in both games.
Wales are on +38 now but by next week that could change considerably.
If France Score a load of points next Sat then the points difference could be considerably less between England and Wales.

What?

Wales are 38 ahead of England on points difference, so if Wales' points difference drops by 19 (losing by 19 points) and England's improves by 20 (winning by 20 points), then England would be ahead on points difference by 1.

I'm not sure what point you're making.

He isn't. He's just a bit mixed up on the points difference thing.

I'm not mixed up at all ... The result of the Wales France match next week will determine how many points England need to win the championship that is of course if France beat Wales.
That 38 point is the gap now but that could change by a larger margin by next week but also it could be less if France put a cricket score against Wales..

[maestegmafia]

As Surrey Simon says, it was a poor selection by PSA. France were greatly improved when their bench came on, whereas England seemed diluted. Probably won't make the same mistake next weekend.

That said as a fan of the game I would rather a great French team play us than a pathetic one. It is Le Big Match, I would hope both teams are at their best and the eventual winner deservedly so.

[SecretFly]

As Surrey Simon says, it was a poor selection by PSA. France were greatly improved when their bench came on, whereas England seemed diluted. Probably won't make the same mistake next weekend.

Making such a painfully obvious selection muck-up mistake kinda leads me to believe PSA wouldn't be adverse to making another one next week. They have erratic ideas about rugby, the French. I just couldn't believe how lazily relaxed things seemed to be as they cruised to a loss by disregarding the clock and kicking penalty points when something much more meaningful was needed. Nobody seemed to be reading the game or caring about the ticking clock. Bizarre behavior.

[Pot Hale]

No the margin changes if the opposition score points

Eh.....If England win by 20, then it doesn't matter if the scoreline is 20-0, 25-5, or 37-17, they'll still win by 20. Geddit?

No the For and Against margin is used in both games.
Wales are on +38 now but by next week that could change considerably.
If France Score a load of points next Sat then the points difference could be considerably less between England and Wales.

What?

Wales are 38 ahead of England on points difference, so if Wales' points difference drops by 19 (losing by 19 points) and England's improves by 20 (winning by 20 points), then England would be ahead on points difference by 1.

I'm not sure what point you're making.

He isn't. He's just a bit mixed up on the points difference thing.

I'm not mixed up at all ... The result of the Wales France match next week will determine how many points England need to win the championship that is of course if France beat Wales.
That 38 point is the gap now but that could change by a larger margin by next week but also it could be less if France put a cricket score against Wales..

Well clearly if France win by more than 19 then the margin England have to reach will be less. You were going on about scores by Ireland and Wales also affecting it which was irrelevant and inaccurate. The point originally raised was the minimum winning/losing margins that the two teams have to achieve in order for the PD to change in England's favour - Wales lose by 19 and England win by 20. It's really simple. Just accept it.

[thomh]

I'm not mixed up at all ... The result of the Wales France match next week will determine how many points England need to win the championship that is of course if France beat Wales.
That 38 point is the gap now but that could change by a larger margin by next week but also it could be less if France put a cricket score against Wales..

I'm still not clear on what it is you think that other people have misunderstood about this.

[Heaf]

No the margin changes if the opposition score points

Eh.....If England win by 20, then it doesn't matter if the scoreline is 20-0, 25-5, or 37-17, they'll still win by 20. Geddit?

No the For and Against margin is used in both games.
Wales are on +38 now but by next week that could change considerably.
If France Score a load of points next Sat then the points difference could be considerably less between England and Wales.

What?

Wales are 38 ahead of England on points difference, so if Wales' points difference drops by 19 (losing by 19 points) and England's improves by 20 (winning by 20 points), then England would be ahead on points difference by 1.

I'm not sure what point you're making.

He isn't. He's just a bit mixed up on the points difference thing.

I'm not mixed up at all ... The result of the Wales France match next week will determine how many points England need to win the championship that is of course if France beat Wales.
That 38 point is the gap now but that could change by a larger margin by next week but also it could be less if France put a cricket score against Wales..

If the margin is larger next week it means Wales beat France so have won anyway ...

[eirebilly]

Jebus, i dont care how France or England played to be honest. The telling fact is that England went to Paris and beat the French, thats pretty special in my books.

England have won 3 out of the last 4 in France, its really not that special

Well its just the norm for you then PSW.

I feel any win for any side in Paris is something special. Each to their own i guess.

[SimonofSurrey]

eirebilly, let it go: PS Wheeler is being a cheeky tongue in cheek chappy. Any 6N win in Paris is to be celebrated and PSW knows it: France's recent 6N record there - for all their eccentric selections - proves that.

More generally, France may have started with the wrong team, notably at 9/10, but that is their fault not England's. I'll take it. Nor is the naive way in which France appeared to have fallen into the 'turn up and we'll win' mindset then found they had no credible Plan B when the sh1t hit the fan. England's bench was weak because at this stage the proven international standard cupboard is thinly stocked. The absences of some of our few international standard players eg Lawes and Wood don't help either.

How should Wales plan next week? Simple, stick to their own game and not worry about which France will turn up. The ups and downs of French rugby are such that France might just as easily win in Cardiff by 15-20 (just keep wearing red, Wales and whatever happens don't change into black) or lose by 40. Then again, there's no guarantee the final result will fall between even those parameters.

A final point: it was good to see some quality old fashioned tries this w/end in all 3 games, ie with runners breaking or shrugging off tackles and crossing the line. Wales of course have been doing this for fun, but for most of the rest of us it made a pleasant change from watching all those interceptions, chargedowns and unlikely scores from messy possession.

[RubyGuby]

SOS

[gregortree]

Simon, excellent report, thanks for a good objective and informative summary. Good job !

[Ozzy3213]

Ratings from The Independent, seem pretty accurate to me...

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/news-comment/france-v-england--player-ratings-7561438.html

[Sponsored content]