IF FLOYD BEATS MANNY DOES HE BECOME TOP 10 ATG ???

...Me I think he's top 10 already but fairplay some intelligent posters regard him outside. Simple question....

If Floyd beats Manny is he an automatic Top 10 choice....and if not why not??

Always a hundred different ways to look at this problem, and in all honesty I can never get beyond five or six before I get into difficulties, but I CERTAINLY reckon that a win over Pacquiao puts Floyd very much in contention, and probably vice versa.

It's a hard call Windy...Don't think the proliferation of titles helps modern guys much.....

If Cotto would have beaten Pacquiao, would he be "Top Ten ATG"

Come on d4.......You can do better than that.

Mayweather, I think, has left it a little bit too late to make an all-time top ten now, at least in my opinion. I'm not sure if a win over Pacquiao is enough to make up for the disappointment that his career has been (relatively speaking) since his Lightweight days; in short, I just don't think he's been dominant enough to be included along the likes of Benny Leonard or Ezzard Charles, both of whom make the 'low' end of my top ten. He's achieved greatness, no doubt, but just hasn't shown that same ambition and dominance as those fighters.

However, I wouldn't begrudge anyone putting him in the top ten if he did beat Pacquiao, as he'd certainly at least be in the frame then, and it's obviously a subjective thing. He'd be outside a top ten for me, though certainly would have a great claim to a top twenty spot and I'd probably include him in that bracket.

D4thincarnation wrote:If Cotto would have beaten Pacquiao, would he be "Top Ten ATG"

Answer the question.

For the record, I'd have to agree with the whoever it was who said it would certainly put him in contention. It'd be the cherry on top of an already impressive career. Haha, yes, 'cherry', as in 'cherry-picked'. Beat you to it.

He doesn't become top ten in my view simply because of the opposition faced, but could have him in top 20, top 15 at a push, only if he were to face Manny Pacquiao and be successful though. There's a lot to take into account regarding who goes where but level of opposition faced is important to me, Floyd has fought nearly everyone there is to fight but i feel that there are other who deserve the spot more, due to better level of opposition faced, there's no doubt people will choose him for their top ten though and i don't really have a problem with that.

No he wouldn't D4 as Cotto couldn't get past the feather fisted Marg and barely scraped through the coward Clottey.

D4thincarnation wrote:If Cotto would have beaten Pacquiao, would he be "Top Ten ATG"

Maybe, if you consider Manny to be a top ten ATG...and I'm sure there's many who wouldn't...mind you, they'd have memories stretching back further than 1986.

Thing is, same applies to Floyd. Depending who you ask, they'd have Floyd in the top ten...along with Calzaghe and Hatton whereas others would suggest that whilst Floyd "done good", there's plenty throughout history who would rank higher

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:It's a hard call Windy...Don't think the proliferation of titles helps modern guys much.....

Neither do I, Truss.

Nonetheless, I reckon that Floyd has a claim to rival Arguello as the best ever superfeather and this, combined with his boxing ability, constitutes pretty good credentials.

You not think ten years at the top even without considering he's beaten delaHoya, an unbeaten Hatton and Marquez etc guarantees him a place...

Have to remember he's beaten four top 10 p4pers at the time....

Not many top 10ers have achieved this feat..

Although you make sense with your Leonard and Charles stuff..

Charles is criminally underrated..

It takes more than just one win to make your ATG status. And looking at Mayweather record he would not make the ATG list top 20 if he did beat Pacquiao.

HumanWindmill wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:It's a hard call Windy...Don't think the proliferation of titles helps modern guys much.....

Neither do I, Truss.

Nonetheless, I reckon that Floyd has a claim to rival Arguello as the best ever superfeather and this, combined with his boxing ability, constitutes pretty good credentials.

Sadly, his failure to dominate/clean up any division since then is why some people mark him down.

Forgetting which paper titles he won you have: Probably the best 154lber, the best 140lber - unbeaten (albeit at 147), and against Pacquiao would be the best at 147 (which Mosley arguably was too), most of the contenders at SFW, and a good LW in Castillo (arguably 1-1), and outlanding Marquez 3 to 1. An impressive record but there have been so many fights over the last couple of years he could have added, and seems more intent on discrediting Pacquiao than beating him. A waste for him to be so inactive since beating Oscar.

Like Chris said he has wasted the last 4 years of his career IMO, and I'd give him a top 20 spot IMO if he did beat Manny.

I personally believe Pacquiao's wins over Barrera and Morales & Cotto shade Mayweather.

Complete inactivity, winning titles at modern jnr weight classes wouldn't be enough to rank in the top 10

Cheers

Rodders

The win obviously strengthens his claim but think I am with the few who have argued he probably is still just outside. Truth is his inacivity over the last few years when there are a number of fights which would have been attractive and viable that have not happened can't help but count against him.

I am pretty well documented in my belief modern fighters do not fight often enough but in an era of extremes of this phenomena Floyd stands out as pushing it to breaking point. Appreciate the days of fighters being in action once a month are long gone but find it hard to give a top ten berth to a guy who's in ring appearances have become annual events at best.

Don't see why you have to clean up a division.....

So guys like Hagler should get more kudos beating Obelmijas and Hamsho twice than if they moved up and beat Spinks at 175!!!

I think it's ridiculous having pops at guys that move up out of their comfort zone and pursue bigger challenges...

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Don't see why you have to clean up a division.....

So guys like Hagler should get more kudos beating Obelmijas and Hamsho twice than if they moved up and beat Spinks at 175!!!

I think it's ridiculous having pops at guys that move up out of their comfort zone and pursue bigger challenges...

Truss he has the most legitimate fight in his whole career at a weight steeped in tradition yet again Floyd goes missing, For whatever reason politics, money Floyd has missed some pretty meaningful fights Cotto, Margarito, Tsyzu etc etc. you can say this about Jones Jnr and other modern greats, the point is winning titles at the the junior division cant mean diddly squat what was to be the lineal the man at a traditional weight class, fighting the main contenders.

Cheers

Rodders

Like I say he beat 4 at the time top 10 p4pers!!!

Name me someone apart from Leonard that's done this..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Like I say he beat 4 at the time top 10 p4pers!!!

Name me someone apart from Leonard that's done this..

Means sod all Truss, tell me any other era where Ricky Hatton would classed as a top ten lb for lb, as decent as Hatton was and im a fan of his he would be classed as a Welterweight in the traditional days and probably wouldn't be a top 15 contender.

Cheers

Rodders

De La Hoya?

Means sod all beating 4 top 10 P4pers.........

It means he's beaten the best fighters around........

Duran hasn't he's top 10? Hagler hasn't.......

Of course it means something...

Hatton was a great win against a fellow unbeaten p4per....Oscar was a great win at 154 remember.....Marquez........

Means alot more than sod all..

Truss, I seriously doubt that anyone in their right mind was giving De la Hoya a top ten pound for pound spot anywhere after 2003. Hatton, as already mentioned, probably wouldn't have made such a lofty position had he been fighting twenty years earlier, and Marquez was fighting two weights higher than he'd ever fought before, and did not look comfortable at 147 lb in the slightest.

All facts and figures can be flipped around and fitted to suit a certain context.

Oscar was still top 10... it was a great win out of his comfort zone...

Hatton wasn't fighting twenty years earlier..If Louis had been fighting twenty years later..........Ali would have beat him and he wouldn't be near any list...

Just beaten Mayorga for the 154 crown...

Come on Chris...Fact is he's beaten 4 top 10ers and not many people have..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Means sod all beating 4 top 10 P4pers.........

It means he's beaten the best fighters around........

Duran hasn't he's top 10? Hagler hasn't.......

Of course it means something...

Hatton was a great win against a fellow unbeaten p4per....Oscar was a great win at 154 remember.....Marquez........

Means alot more than sod all..

Maybes sod all is the wrong phrase, its a fantastic achievement in the grand scale of things, but you cant seriously rank him above Duran??

Marquez, Hatton were all guys stepping up from where they rated lb for lb greatness if im not mistaken, so if we take this criteria where do we rank Johnson's win against Ketchel ? Joe Louis win against Conn whom you like referring too? etc etc, I'm sure those guys would be classed as near p4pers in the day.

Cheers

Rodders

judging a fighter on mythical p4p lists is very tricky truss, there have been some very poor fighters given very high rankings in the p4p lists even though there not very good but more built on hype. pavlik being some peoples 3 i remember being one of them.

you also get older fighters still knocking around in the list through reputation, oscar being one of those cases.

I rank him above Duran for sure yes.....Always think Duran is overrated because of the Leonard win....people forget the rematch..

duran was great but his lightweight reign was like Calzaghes super middle one...

For me Hearns stopped any top 10 place for Duran..and other quality boxers always seemed to have his number...Benitez, Laing..

But that's by the by...My take on Duran is my take and not shared on here....and that's fairplay..

TRUSS,

The "current" top 10 p4pers Mayweather Jr has beaten are Corrales, Hatton, Marquez and Mosely. Castillo and Judah were borderline I'd say.

It is a good list of opponents but to suggest only SRL has done something similar is a bit silly!

But if he does beat Pacquiao he would be anywhere from 11-20

Tell me who has then????

If you look at all the old fighters and figure in who was a challenger and champion at the time..it's hard to see how any of them could have beaten 4 top 10 p4pers of their day...even Robbo and Ali..

Should think only Frazier, Liston and Foreman could be included...for Ali!!

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Tell me who has then????

If you look at all the old fighters and figure in who was a challenger and champion at the time..it's hard to see how any of them could have beaten 4 top 10 p4pers of their day...even Robbo and Ali..

Should think only Frazier, Liston and Foreman could be included...for Ali!!

What are you getting carried away with this pound for pound for ??

If you value pound for pound so much, you'd have no problem putting Durans name near the top of the pile over the last 5 years, The dominant man at Lightweight who started as Super Bantam beating the main man at Welter, its far and above Mayweathers record, guys like Corralles, Duran has 5 names as good as him on his Lightweight challengers.

Rodders

th

Not getting carried away..just rebutting people that say it means sod all...

11 years unbeaten at the top.....ring titles, five or six at different weights...

All goes in the pot..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Not getting carried away..just rebutting people that say it means sod all...

11 years unbeaten at the top.....ring titles, five or six at different weights...

All goes in the pot..

In the grand scale of things two weights IMO, if you counted these Junior divisions for the old guys Fitz, Robinson,Langford,Greb etc would need a new house to store these belts in.

Cheers

Rodders

Robinson lost at 175!!!!!!!!!!!

Which means he'd only habe gone from 147 - 168!!

That's only four weights...Floyd has done more than that..

As I have robbo at number 2 he's not someone I'm comparing him to for top 10 status anyway...

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Robinson lost at 175!!!!!!!!!!!

Which means he'd only habe gone from 147 - 168!!

That's only four weights...Floyd has done more than that..

As I have robbo at number 2 he's not someone I'm comparing him to for top 10 status anyway...

Stop being silly Truss, how many fights did Robinson have again, how old was he when he fought at 175 ? He fought more contenders in a year than Mayweather has over the last 10.

Like to see Mayweather go and challenge Jean Pascal or a Carl Froch now.

Rodders

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Robinson lost at 175!!!!!!!!!!!

Which means he'd only habe gone from 147 - 168!!

That's only four weights...Floyd has done more than that..

As I have robbo at number 2 he's not someone I'm comparing him to for top 10 status anyway...

Who do you have at number 1 out of interest Truss?

Based purely on talent I'd have no qualms with FMJ being in the top 10 should he beat Pac convincingly, which I still don't doubt he could do.

The same would work with Pac however but based more on achievment career wise.

I'm not comparing Floyd to Robbo.....Robbo is my number 2.....

Floyd is further down the list.....

You don't like Mayweather it's obvious..

You seem to be becoming cantankerous in your old age as well....

For me Dela Hoya, Mosley, Marquez, Hatton plus the ones mentioned above are all modern greats.....


Hagler is close to top 10, Louis is in the top 10 and how many greats did they beat???

The guys who tend to be ranked aroung number ten in the all time lists are Pernell Whitaker and Sugar Ray Leonard. Mayweather will never top Leonard and even a Pacquiao win wouldn't be enough to supplant Whitaker for me.

Floyd's one of the most talented fighters of all time - but his resume is a bit light. Oscar and Mosley were faded whilst Hatton and especially Marquez were above their best weights. The biggest knock against Floyd is the calculating nature of his match taking.

Floyd was at his best as a super feather - the Corrales victory his signature win.

Even if Floyd were to edge Pacquiao, it could be argued that Manny still has the finer resume of the two.

Have Ali as number 1...............always have..

The greatest for me..

Great to hear from you Haz been a long time Mate..

I used to have Mayweather around 40-50 in my ATG list but his inactivity and ducking will seem him leave the top 50.

I win over Pacquiao will make him make the top 30 but, you can't duck fights for 7 years and expect to be top 10 p4p.

When you look at the great names of boxing and see their accomplishments anyone would struggle to have Mayweather top 40 at the moment.

Out of the top 50..

Give it a rest..

hazharrison wrote:The guys who tend to be ranked aroung number ten in the all time lists are Pernell Whitaker and Sugar Ray Leonard. Mayweather will never top Leonard and even a Pacquiao win wouldn't be enough to supplant Whitaker for me.

Floyd's one of the most talented fighters of all time - but his resume is a bit light. Oscar and Mosley were faded whilst Hatton and especially Marquez were above their best weights. The biggest knock against Floyd is the calculating nature of his match taking.

Floyd was at his best as a super feather - the Corrales victory his signature win.

Even if Floyd were to edge Pacquiao, it could be argued that Manny still has the finer resume of the two.

Totally agree Haz mate.

I'll hold my hands up I don't like Floyd never have with the gangster talking garbage him and his family do, don't think its appealing one bit. But I wont let that cloud my judgement as a fighter he is tremendous, just not top 20 material at the minute IMO.

You've gotta agree as a Floyd fan as you are that his career over the last 5 years as been bitterly disappointing. For his fans and boxing in total.

Cheers

Rodders

I don't want to get into an old vs new debate but with regards to multi weight champions, it is easier to do nowadays than it was in the days of Robinson. Imagine if he had the benefit of fighting 4/5 different guys to win a title rather than just the one, it's often forgotten that he started out at lightweight so with junior weight classes and 5 belts to fight for he could realistically have won at 7 weights covering some 40lbs.

Mayweather I have in my top 20 already, whether or not he could have done more doesn't change the fact he is supremely talented and its often forgotten that people like Whitaker, Pep and Locche are rated more on their talent rather than their resumes which in all truth aren't much better than Mayweathers. In years to come both Mayweather and Pacquiao will be rated comfortably in any top 20 list with the potential of being higher.

It's only easier if the quality isn't about...

DelaHoya at 154 would be easy meat for someone like Fritzie Zivic would he?????

Sorry but no doubt Tubbs and Page could knock carnera out...

Depends on the talent at the time..

Too sweeping a statement..sorry.

You can switch the argument and ask what is harder to do beat Baldomir for the 147lb title or Maxim for the 175lb title.

Go back to Robinsons era with the same fighters etc. but include all 17 divisions with the WBC, WBA, IBF, WBO and Ring titles and I think it's reasonable to say he'd be a 7 weight world champion. That of course didn't happen because he didn't have the opportunity to do and i've always rated wins over multi weight exploits.

I'm not switching the argument..You made a statement and I rebutted it...

I didn't make the argument you did..

Talent is talent..and it's not always around.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:It's only easier if the quality isn't about...

DelaHoya at 154 would be easy meat for someone like Fritzie Zivic would he?????

Sorry but no doubt Tubbs and Page could knock carnera out...

Depends on the talent at the time..

Too sweeping a statement..sorry.

At what stage of his career are you summarising Fritzie Zivic and if its his pomp why would he fight at 154lb.

De La Hoya was past it, had his ears boxed off by an alphabet titlist at middle.

I'm sorry but why do you say no doubt Tubbs and Page would knock Carnera out, what did Tubbs or Page do ??

Cheers

Rodders

Which is why it's irrelevant being a 5 weight world champion if you haven't got the names to go with it. Pacquiao is a 8 weight world champion but beat some pretty poor names for some of those titles.