IF FLOYD BEATS MANNY DOES HE BECOME TOP 10 ATG ???

First topic message reminder :

...Me I think he's top 10 already but fairplay some intelligent posters regard him outside. Simple question....

If Floyd beats Manny is he an automatic Top 10 choice....and if not why not??

superflyweight wrote:Change in circumstances at work means that day time posting is out of the question. Still try to pop on from time to time at night though.

Not even been able to make it to the Blue Oyster!! Hope you're still queen bee down there, Truss.

You've been banned from the tinterweb in work hours due to being caught spanking the monkey over Diana Vickers?

If only, coxy! No time for mucky pictures or even chewing the fat about boxng and spending my days actually earning my salary! Sad times!

Will try and dig out the famous hand wraps thread and will hold onto it until the next time D4 claims never to lie.

superflyweight wrote:If only, coxy! No time for mucky pictures or even chewing the fat about boxng and spending my days actually earning my salary! Sad times!

Will try and dig out the famous hand wraps thread and will hold onto it until the next time D4 claims never to lie.

Stop making things up, I never condoned the use of loaded hand wraps in boxing.

I remember the thread....

Me too

WHat was said?

I also remember the thread, and I might even know where to find it.

If my memory serves me right in order to try and justify the Margarito fight, D4 came out with the bold statement that illegal hand wraps could improve safety.

That's right isn't it guys?

imperialghosty wrote:If my memory serves me right in order to try and justify the Margarito fight, D4 came out with the bold statement that illegal hand wraps could improve safety.

That's right isn't it guys?

Not at all, I said no such thing.

Ghosty is spot on....

Do I really have to post the link again to prove you wrong, D4. Oh well, what the hell - this one is for old times' sake.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/F18522867?thread=7700478&skip=40&show=20

superflyweight wrote:Do I really have to post the link again to prove you wrong, D4. Oh well, what the hell - this one is for old times' sake.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/F18522867?thread=7700478&skip=40&show=20

Good god

You now see the full force of what we're dealing with here

What we've got here is...failure to communicate

comment by
D4thincarnation (U13986207)
posted Aug 19, 2010
By using the plaster wraps he probably made it less likely he would kill someone or do them permanent damage, brain wise.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It seems that you have, indeed suggested hand wraps help safety

Would you care to now offer a retraction?

superflyweight wrote:Do I really have to post the link again to prove you wrong, D4. Oh well, what the hell - this one is for old times' sake.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/F18522867?thread=7700478&skip=40&show=20

Yes I was sure to put the caveat of "brain wise" in, since those injuries are caused by the brain hitting the inside of the skull from when the neck stops the head from flying back.

In no way was I condoning the use of loaded hand wraps.

D4thincarnation wrote:

superflyweight wrote:Do I really have to post the link again to prove you wrong, D4. Oh well, what the hell - this one is for old times' sake.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/F18522867?thread=7700478&skip=40&show=20

Yes I was sure to put the caveat of "brain wise" in, since those injuries are caused by the brain hitting the inside of the skull from when the neck stops the head from flying back.

In no way was I condoning the use of loaded hand wraps.

Your point remains indefensible.

In terms of damaging the brain - there is still a shear force upon horizontal neuronal connections from heavier harder blows. The eyes and other sense organs are more damaged by loaded gloves. The retina is more likely to be detached. Skull fracture becomes more probable. If skull fracture occurs, the possibility of it being associated with intracranial bleed remains. Cerebral haemorrhage is frequently fatal.

In addition to the head and brain - there's the damage to the body through broken ribs etc.

Watch "cornered". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDuDIR0_KhQ - here's the trailer.

But suggesting that loaded gloves are safer is fundamentally wrong.

Problem is D4 was that you appear to be suggesting that handwraps under standard padded gloves would be safer so that would refute your own argument regarding brain injuries (oxring has also raised valid points rebuttingyour claims).

oxring wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:

superflyweight wrote:Do I really have to post the link again to prove you wrong, D4. Oh well, what the hell - this one is for old times' sake.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/F18522867?thread=7700478&skip=40&show=20

Yes I was sure to put the caveat of "brain wise" in, since those injuries are caused by the brain hitting the inside of the skull from when the neck stops the head from flying back.

In no way was I condoning the use of loaded hand wraps.

Your point remains indefensible.

In terms of damaging the brain - there is still a shear force upon horizontal neuronal connections from heavier harder blows. The eyes and other sense organs are more damaged by loaded gloves. The retina is more likely to be detached. Skull fracture becomes more probable. If skull fracture occurs, the possibility of it being associated with intracranial bleed remains. Cerebral haemorrhage is frequently fatal.

In addition to the head and brain - there's the damage to the body through broken ribs etc.

Watch "cornered". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDuDIR0_KhQ - here's the trailer.

But suggesting that loaded gloves are safer is fundamentally wrong.

No I'm not suggesting there are fundamentally safer, I was just pointing out brain injuries that do occur are the normally the result of the brain banging against the inside of the skull. The damage that loaded gloves are no joke and can result in serious injury, like you say retina damage.

My point was only to point out that boxing brain injuries are the result of the of the method I stated and loading the gloves would not increase the probability of it happening.

It would increase the chances of several other life changing injuries and that is why they are banned and so frowned upon.

I understand D4's argument. I believe he is suggesting that with loaded gloves you get faster KO's than with a prolong beating with properly padded gloves.

Unfortunately in both instances he is wrong as has been explained above.

OK.

I'll say this again and slowly.

Harder trauma to the head, underneath padded gloves - is more likely to cause prolonged brain trauma. If you're suggesting there's the "1-punch KO" factor that improves safety with loaded gloves - why have the most famous instances of cheating involved more prolonged beatings - e.g. Resto-Collins - this went the distance, was never likely to be stopped.

Since when did the retina become not the brain, by the way?

oxring wrote:OK.

I'll say this again and slowly.

Harder trauma to the head, underneath padded gloves - is more likely to cause prolonged brain trauma. If you're suggesting there's the "1-punch KO" factor that improves safety with loaded gloves - why have the most famous instances of cheating involved more prolonged beatings - e.g. Resto-Collins - this went the distance, was never likely to be stopped.

Since when did the retina become not the brain, by the way?

I always thought it was the eye myself.

I using stats of deaths in boxing from the pre gloved era to the gloved era as well. Less/no padding fewer deaths, but I'm sure other injuries were more prevalent.

Hand wraps don't really produce quicker KO's because they don't increase, they increase the damage a punch does, try telling that to Billy Collins jr.

It destroyed his whole life and culminated in what many believe to be his death via suicide.

imperialghosty wrote:Hand wraps don't really produce quicker KO's because they don't increase, they increase the damage a punch does, try telling that to Billy Collins jr.

It destroyed his whole life and culminated in what many believe to be his death via suicide.

And I have never condoned their use.

The evidence is there for all to see

imperialghosty wrote:You now see the full force of what we're dealing with here

What we've got here is...failure to communicate

Strange coincidence that I just ordered Cool Hand Luke on Amazon today.......

Bob wrote:

imperialghosty wrote:You now see the full force of what we're dealing with here

What we've got here is...failure to communicate

Strange coincidence that I just ordered Cool Hand Luke on Amazon today.......

Meant to be a great film, It is on my to watch list.

D4thincarnation wrote:

Bob wrote:

imperialghosty wrote:You now see the full force of what we're dealing with here

What we've got here is...failure to communicate

Strange coincidence that I just ordered Cool Hand Luke on Amazon today.......

Meant to be a great film, It is on my to watch list.

I suppose it's good for it's time, but if Newman and the director knew about modern nutrition and filmaking/acting it would be much better.

Suppose that's why it's not as good as Transformers

Bob wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:

Bob wrote:

imperialghosty wrote:You now see the full force of what we're dealing with here

What we've got here is...failure to communicate

Strange coincidence that I just ordered Cool Hand Luke on Amazon today.......

Meant to be a great film, It is on my to watch list.

I suppose it's good for it's time, but if Newman and the director knew about modern nutrition and filmaking/acting it would be much better.

Suppose that's why it's not as good as Transformers

Eggs have always been good for you.

D4thincarnation wrote:

oxring wrote:OK.

Since when did the retina become not the brain, by the way?

I always thought it was the eye myself.

You've always been wrong I'm afraid. The retina is formed from an outpouching of neural epithelium from the developing brain; as such the retina is part of the central nervous system.

Sometimes helps to be a medical student.

oxring wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:

oxring wrote:OK.

Since when did the retina become not the brain, by the way?

I always thought it was the eye myself.

You've always been wrong I'm afraid. The retina is formed from an outpouching of neural epithelium from the developing brain; as such the retina is part of the central nervous system.

Sometimes helps to be a medical student.

Clever cloggs

Back to the point, surely PBF is an all time great if he beats Manny.

What else would there be for him to do? Possibly Martinez but I'd be surprised if he took it.

TumblingDice wrote:Back to the point, surely PBF is an all time great if he beats Manny.

What else would there be for him to do? Possibly Martinez but I'd be surprised if he took it.

The question asked was if that result would make him an ATG top ten.

D4thincarnation wrote:

TumblingDice wrote:Back to the point, surely PBF is an all time great if he beats Manny.

What else would there be for him to do? Possibly Martinez but I'd be surprised if he took it.

The question asked was if that result would make him an ATG top ten.

I dont think it would make him an ATG when he KOs Manny. The simple reason being that beating Manny is nothing special. He has fought and beaten better guys and Manny is a classic hype job with a totally manufactured career over the past 3 years.

He will remain top 35 imho.

azania wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:

TumblingDice wrote:Back to the point, surely PBF is an all time great if he beats Manny.

What else would there be for him to do? Possibly Martinez but I'd be surprised if he took it.

The question asked was if that result would make him an ATG top ten.

I dont think it would make him an ATG when he KOs Manny. The simple reason being that beating Manny is nothing special. He has fought and beaten better guys and Manny is a classic hype job with a totally manufactured career over the past 3 years.

He will remain top 35 imho.

Have to disagree, Manny is a monster of a fighter, although I think PBF would beat him if they get it on.

D4, in answer, I'd say PBF would be an ATG top 10 if he wins. There is clearly no official criteria to qualify this status but in most people's opinion (if I can speak on behalf of the people) then PBF would be regarded that highly.

D4 - the reason there were less deaths in the pre-gloved area is that people tended not to go for too many head shots because they would break their hands. It's not because it's safer to be hit in the head by bareknuckles.

TumblingDice wrote:

azania wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:

TumblingDice wrote:Back to the point, surely PBF is an all time great if he beats Manny.

What else would there be for him to do? Possibly Martinez but I'd be surprised if he took it.

The question asked was if that result would make him an ATG top ten.

I dont think it would make him an ATG when he KOs Manny. The simple reason being that beating Manny is nothing special. He has fought and beaten better guys and Manny is a classic hype job with a totally manufactured career over the past 3 years.

He will remain top 35 imho.

Have to disagree, Manny is a monster of a fighter, although I think PBF would beat him if they get it on.

D4, in answer, I'd say PBF would be an ATG top 10 if he wins. There is clearly no official criteria to qualify this status but in most people's opinion (if I can speak on behalf of the people) then PBF would be regarded that highly.

I dont think he's a monster. A good fighter by all means, but nothing special. Look at his CV post JMM. Diaz. Who? Oscar...weigh drained and could have een beaten by any half decent welter of JWW. Cotto...weight drained also. Many say its only 1lb. If its only that, why did Team Roach insist on it. They knew Cotto would struggle. Cotto took it as it was huge money. Clottey ,,,what can you say about that. Hatton.....shockingly out of shape with a very poor camp. Went in face first believing his strength would prevail. Marg ... silly fight and made for amnny. Now SSM.

Ordinarily any other boxer would have been considered ok results/ Great win over cotto. But when you look atthe various stips involved, it only becomes names and nothing more.

Manny adds little. He needs Floyd more than vice versa.

TumblingDice wrote:

azania wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:

TumblingDice wrote:Back to the point, surely PBF is an all time great if he beats Manny.

What else would there be for him to do? Possibly Martinez but I'd be surprised if he took it.

The question asked was if that result would make him an ATG top ten.

I dont think it would make him an ATG when he KOs Manny. The simple reason being that beating Manny is nothing special. He has fought and beaten better guys and Manny is a classic hype job with a totally manufactured career over the past 3 years.

He will remain top 35 imho.

Have to disagree, Manny is a monster of a fighter, although I think PBF would beat him if they get it on.

D4, in answer, I'd say PBF would be an ATG top 10 if he wins. There is clearly no official criteria to qualify this status but in most people's opinion (if I can speak on behalf of the people) then PBF would be regarded that highly.

The problem is when you start looking at the list of ATGs and look at their records and how Mayweather's record is pretty poor when compared to them.

Not as bad as Quackiaos though

42-0 is shockingly poor. Beating up weight drained fighters is a mark of greatness.

I take it you know about UN 242 and those who revise its true meaning. You sould like that. Remember? 8)

Can't see how beating a guy that would be lucky to get into my top 50 ATG would automatically make FMJ top 10. I would have him around 20 and nothing he does from now until he retires is going to change that.

prettyboy1304 wrote:Can't see how beating a guy that would be lucky to get into my top 50 ATG would automatically make FMJ top 10. I would have him around 20 and nothing he does from now until he retires is going to change that.

Pretty good analysis there, pretty boy (although I do rate Pacquiao higher than you it seems, as I'd say he is certainly in or around the thirty to thirty-five mark). As I said at the start of this thread, I think Mayweather has simply left it too late to build a CV which is top ten worthy. I don't think that a win over Pacquiao is enough to make up for the disappointment (relatively speaking, of course) that his career has been ever since he stepped up anywhere higher than Lightweight. If the fight ever happens and Mayweather were to win, I'd say somewhere around the twenty mark would be about right for him.

88Chris05 wrote:

prettyboy1304 wrote:Can't see how beating a guy that would be lucky to get into my top 50 ATG would automatically make FMJ top 10. I would have him around 20 and nothing he does from now until he retires is going to change that.

Pretty good analysis there, pretty boy (although I do rate Pacquiao higher than you it seems, as I'd say he is certainly in or around the thirty to thirty-five mark). As I said at the start of this thread, I think Mayweather has simply left it too late to build a CV which is top ten worthy. I don't think that a win over Pacquiao is enough to make up for the disappointment (relatively speaking, of course) that his career has been ever since he stepped up anywhere higher than Lightweight. If the fight ever happens and Mayweather were to win, I'd say somewhere around the twenty mark would be about right for him.

I do like Manny and do rate him but I can't put a fighter with a defence like his to high up my top 50 was probably a bit harsh though somewhere around the 40-45 mark.

prettyboy1304 wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:

prettyboy1304 wrote:Can't see how beating a guy that would be lucky to get into my top 50 ATG would automatically make FMJ top 10. I would have him around 20 and nothing he does from now until he retires is going to change that.

Pretty good analysis there, pretty boy (although I do rate Pacquiao higher than you it seems, as I'd say he is certainly in or around the thirty to thirty-five mark). As I said at the start of this thread, I think Mayweather has simply left it too late to build a CV which is top ten worthy. I don't think that a win over Pacquiao is enough to make up for the disappointment (relatively speaking, of course) that his career has been ever since he stepped up anywhere higher than Lightweight. If the fight ever happens and Mayweather were to win, I'd say somewhere around the twenty mark would be about right for him.

I do like Manny and do rate him but I can't put a fighter with a defence like his to high up my top 50 was probably a bit harsh though somewhere around the 40-45 mark.

I agree. A close analysis of his career will provide so many holes you could drive a truck through it. Even his fights at lower weights should have question marks. He beat Morales and MAB after the pair of them had beaten one another to a stand-still. Lord knows how much they had taken out of each other. As for his higher weights ventures, the numerous stipulations which always favour him doesn;t give a fair account of his tru worth. There will always be a question mark over him.

Until he fights a live opponent that is. So far he hasn;t. A brilliant career created out of excellent matchmaking and better timing.