IF FLOYD BEATS MANNY DOES HE BECOME TOP 10 ATG ???

First topic message reminder :

...Me I think he's top 10 already but fairplay some intelligent posters regard him outside. Simple question....

If Floyd beats Manny is he an automatic Top 10 choice....and if not why not??

De La Hoya should have lost to Sturm, but I wouldn't say he had his ears boxed off. Had him losing by a point or two.

De La Hoya was never a Middleweight and shouldn't have ever moved up to the division anyway.

Dear god I would not have thought a Manny Floyd debate involving D4 could be any more tedious but someone introduces formula one into the mix. I stand corrected.

I think he just turned in too early, locked up and lost it...

broke his neck...sad weekend.

rowley wrote:Dear god I would not have thought a Manny Floyd debate involving D4 could be any more tedious but someone introduces formula one into the mix. I stand corrected.

Difference being, jeff, that the Manny thing goes round in circles more often than an F1 car.

In fairness to Oscar he looked for challenges...Hoppo was a fight that you have to credit him for seeking...

Oscar like guys like Hearns, RJJ and Duran (shhhh) should be applauded for venturing out of their comfort zone..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I think he just turned in too early, locked up and lost it...

broke his neck...sad weekend.

Ok, I was a tad tasteless. Worst bit was the Austrian flag they found in Senna's wreckage...intended for tribute to Ratzenberger. Ouch. Anyway. My point was just that not always are sports personalities judged on what they didn't do, but in boxing it seems the norm.

HumanWindmill wrote:

rowley wrote:Dear god I would not have thought a Manny Floyd debate involving D4 could be any more tedious but someone introduces formula one into the mix. I stand corrected.

Difference being, jeff, that the Manny thing goes round in circles more often than an F1 car.

You're thinking of IndyCars racing

Truss sitting through a Manny Floyd debate was almost worth it to hear you say something nice about Duran, has only been four years mate

I'm surprised Rowley and Windy haven't joined in and said f1 cars were better in the old days

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:In fairness to Oscar he looked for challenges...Hoppo was a fight that you have to credit him for seeking...

Oscar like guys like Hearns, RJJ and Duran (shhhh) should be applauded for venturing out of their comfort zone..

I agree, too many fighters play it safe and will only take fights they are sure they can win.

D4thincarnation wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

rowley wrote:Dear god I would not have thought a Manny Floyd debate involving D4 could be any more tedious but someone introduces formula one into the mix. I stand corrected.

Difference being, jeff, that the Manny thing goes round in circles more often than an F1 car.

You're thinking of IndyCars racing

Well, the ' thinking ' part puts me one up on you doesn't it, Fibonacci ?

Duran is my Burley Jeff, this could get really messy

D4thincarnation wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

rowley wrote:Dear god I would not have thought a Manny Floyd debate involving D4 could be any more tedious but someone introduces formula one into the mix. I stand corrected.

Difference being, jeff, that the Manny thing goes round in circles more often than an F1 car.

You're thinking of IndyCars racing

Perhaps you were thinking of NASCAR. Which is an elliptical track anyway.

You really are a wind up merchant aren't you boy but good luck to you!

I'm not arguing with a guy who comes out with a word like elliptical.

Robinson must be a pretty poor fighter using that logic, assuming he was expected to beat every single opponent he faced

imperialghosty wrote:Robinson must be a pretty poor fighter using that logic, assuming he was expected to beat every single opponent he faced

Robinson took many tough fights, and continued to test himself throughout his career. Some fighter will just take easy fights and lets other big fights go by the wayside.

Like Truss said fighters should be applauded for going out of their comfort zone.

You missed the point didn't you D4

Like Marquez 3...........

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Great to hear from you Haz been a long time Mate..

Good to be back chewing the fat Truss, great to see so many of the old crew on here!

He shows no sign of wanting the fight either now or back when it meant something .So no not a top 10 ATG for me not even top 20 even IF he won .Far to risk adverse.

Here's Doug Fischer from RingTV.com's top 30 fighters (although Fischer rags on Floyd quite regularly):

Ray Robinson, Willie Pep, Sam Langford, Henry Armstrong, Harry Greb, Mickey Walker, Benny Leonard, Ezzard Charles, Sandy Saddler, Muhammad Ali, Joe Louis, Jack Johnson, Tony Canzoneri, Ray Leonard, Barney Ross, Emile Griffith, Lou Ambers, Archie Moore, Salvador Sanchez, and Gene Tunney.

My next 10 would include all-timers like Tommy Loughran, Jimmy McLarnin, Tiger Flowers, Kid Chocolate, Fidel Labarba, Bob Fitzsimmons, Joe Gans, Sammy Angott, Kid Gavilan, and Billy Graham.

Could a Floyd win over Pacquiao displace any of that lot?

Leave it out Skidd..Leonard didn't fancy a Hearns rematch..Duran never called out Hearns again..Holmes didn't fancy Pinklon Thomas

Why pick on Mayweather...

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Leave it out Skidd..Leonard didn't fancy a Hearns rematch..Duran never called out Hearns again..Holmes didn't fancy Pinklon Thomas

Why pick on Mayweather...

Cotto: Ducked
Margarito: Ducked:
Williams: Ducked
Pacquiao: Ducked, Ducked, Ducked and Ducked

Mosley: waited till he was past his best
Winky: never fancied it
Hatton: pulled him up from a weight class he was not comfortable with.
Tyszu: Never went for him

Martinez: wants no part of him
Khan: Will also ducked him if Khan beats Bradley.

Most boxer miss a big fight in there career but since Mayweather has moved up from superfeather he has missed one big fight after another.

Thats why we should pick on Mayweather.

D4thincarnation wrote:


Mosley: waited till he was past his best

...

Hatton - unbeaten
DelaHoya - alltime great..

Funny thing is I could make the same kind of list for your mate..

When is Marquez 3??

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Hatton - unbeaten
DelaHoya - alltime great..

Funny thing is I could make the same kind of list for your mate..

When is Marquez 3??

Wait till November, Pacquiao just needs to beat Mosley and he would have cleaned out the welterweight division in record time.

Doesn't sound like he needs to clean out Mosley!!!

Apparently he was finished before Mayweather beat him..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Leave it out Skidd..Leonard didn't fancy a Hearns rematch..Duran never called out Hearns again..Holmes didn't fancy Pinklon Thomas

Why pick on Mayweather...

Leonard did rematch Hearns but not after the second fight.Went on to fight Hagler or Norris and Camacho depending on which fight you mean
Duran never called Hearns out again is correct but he didnt call Tommy out very loudly the first time.Tommy had his number and Duran knew it ..still fought Leonard again,Barkley,Camacho twice,Pazienza
Dont rate Holmes as highly as some but Thomas was not risk adverse
Thats why Mayweather doesnt match up..Not skill level but doesnt fight and wont take risks

Record time? Dear me, you do talk rubbish.

Cotto, Clottey and Mosley.

How many of them were coming off wins against other rated welterweights? I'll answer:

Cotto and that was it.

Can hardly call it cleaning out can you, and history will look back on his little "in house mismatches" as well.

Mosley, Margarito, Cotto, Clottey were all top welters of the noughties

D4thincarnation wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Hatton - unbeaten
DelaHoya - alltime great..

Funny thing is I could make the same kind of list for your mate..

When is Marquez 3??

Wait till November, Pacquiao just needs to beat Mosley and he would have cleaned out the welterweight division in record time.

Yep wait for him to get older and ask him to come up to welter.

Random tests?

D4thincarnation wrote:Mosley, Margarito, Cotto, Clottey were all top welters of the noughties

The thread is about Mayweather and his place in history, should he fight and beat Pacquiao.

Duran shouted out Leonard and Hagler for rematches..

Robbo avoided a high paid third fight with Turpin..

Leonard wasn't interested in an immediate return with hearns...

Hagler avoided Hearns 2.....

Sorry but there it is...........

As for d4 you do talk some rudey poo.

D4, I'm sorry, Hatton was a huge LWW. Moving up to 147 was nothing given that during his career at LWW he weighed over 154 come fight time.

I've always reckoned the IBRO top twenty to be pretty good as far as the names go. I'd quibble about the order - Jofre is way too low, in my opinion - but on the whole I don't believe that it's at all bad :


1. Sugar Ray Robinson

2. Harry Greb

3. Henry Armstrong

4. Muhammad Ali (Tie)

4. Joe Louis (Tie)

6. Sam Langford

7. Roberto Duran

8. Benny Leonard

9. Willie Pep

10. Bob Fitzsimmons

11. Joe Gans

12. Ezzard Charles (Tie)

12. Sugar Ray Leonard (Tie)

14. Jimmy Wilde

15. Eder Jofre

16. Mickey Walker

17. Archie Moore

18. Jack Dempsey

19. Jack Johnson

20. Gene Tunney


It seems to me a question of how many of these Mayweather would displace, were he to beat Pacquiao, and the more I think about it the more I think he would still fall a little short of a top ten. Somewhere in the mix for the top twenty seems about right to me.

Windy, to be honest if he were to fight and beat him he'd probably be top 20 for me and vice a versa if Manny were.

Both are in the 20-30 range for me or so, both need each other to seal a top 20 spot unless either go for Martinez at 154 or something.

And see what we have to put up with regarding another hijacking? Seems unable to fathom what the initial article was asking him to debate about.

If Floyd actually fights Manny I will put both of their agents in my Top 10 All time greatest miracle workers.

Louis shouldn't be in there for me.....Duran also......

For me Leonard should be around 4 and as for Dempsey well let's not go there.....

Why is Dempsey above Tunney??

Money talks Coxy and as Floyd probably is going to have a painful divorce...it will happen.

coxy0001 wrote:Windy, to be honest if he were to fight and beat him he'd probably be top 20 for me and vice a versa if Manny were.

Both are in the 20-30 range for me or so, both need each other to seal a top 20 spot unless either go for Martinez at 154 or something.

And see what we have to put up with regarding another hijacking? Seems unable to fathom what the initial article was asking him to debate about.

Your analysis is pretty much how I see it, coxy, after thinking about it for most of the afternoon.

And yes, we need to stay on topic. It must be possible to discuss Floyd and Manny as separate entities sometimes, and the only relevance which Manny has to the author's question concerns his losing to Mayweather. There's a danger that these two will end up like the Klitschkos, insofar as we can't discuss one without the other.

I hated the git but I'd put Leonard in the top 10. Certainly ahead of Pep who I would relegate out of the top 20 and replace him with Saddler. Ali 2nd for me. Louis out of the top 10 altogether and find a space for Roy Jones.

Floyd wouldn't make that list imo.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Louis shouldn't be in there for me.....Duran also......

For me Leonard should be around 4 and as for Dempsey well let's not go there.....

Why is Dempsey above Tunney??

As I say, Truss, we can quibble about certain elements of the IBRO list, but as a starting point I imagine you'd agree that most of the right names are there.

For me, Jofre is the third best fighter of all time, behind only Robinson and Armstrong, and I could go on for hours as to the reasons why, but ultimately I believe that it's the names that matter, and I've seen top twenty lists a darned sight poorer than this one.

In my opinion, of course.

D4thincarnation wrote:


Martinez: wants no part of him

Why should he fight Martinez? Martinez is a MW. Floyd is a small welter. If he did, should he ask Martinez to come down to welter?

The problem with Mayweather is that this is a potential fight and a potential win.So his standing is low ATG for me
He shows no sign of wanting the fight and thats how he will be judged
Leonard was difficult,arrogant took fights a his own terms but he looks almost Greb like in activity when compared to Floyd..that is said with some irony in case it doesnt translate on the web

Based on the IBRO list that Windy posted it's hard to see either man making the top 10 with a win over the other. Louis and Pep would probably be making way for Charles and Jofre in my top 10 but that still leaves no place for Floyd or Manny.

I agree with Coxy that they're both currently somewhere in the top 25 or so. A win over the other puts them on the edge of the top 10.

Taking the IBRO list as an indicator, you'd have to say that a win over the other puts Manny and Floyd certainly ahead of Dempsey, Walker, Tunney (as much as I hate to admit that) and Johnson and pushing Moore, both Leonards and Gans all the way.

Been away super ??????

Hope you weren't injured at the blue oyster bar!!

Anybody know of any good lawyers???

Tunney is far too low in that list considering some of those above him, also think Langford, B. Leonard and Gans are far too high, Fitzsimmons, Charles, R. Leonard and Jofre should be far higher

Considering fighters avoiding others, it's never used against Robinson that he avoided the black murderers row fighters who by and large rated higher than any of his opponents, so why should it be used against Mayweather. It's about who you have beaten not who you could have beaten otherwise we'd be here forever saying who every fighter should have fought.

superfly, good to see you... wondered where you'd gone!

Any chance you can dig out the "handwraps are good" comments for future reference from the old 606?!

Change in circumstances at work means that day time posting is out of the question. Still try to pop on from time to time at night though.

Not even been able to make it to the Blue Oyster!! Hope you're still queen bee down there, Truss.