Welsh Regional Rugby in a positive light...!

First topic message reminder :

Since regional rugby started in 2003 these results have been achieved by the all four of the regions:

- 7 Quarter-finals in Europe

- 2 Semi-finals in Europe

- 13 top four placements in Celtic League with three championship titles

- Two championship titles in Anglo-Welsh and two runners-up places


That is apparently resulting in Welsh Rugby Success rate in the Six Nations that has gone from 30% in 2000-2003 to 60% from 2004 - 2012.

We have more young academy players playing in the upper echelons of the game than ever before, the regional and National sides have an average age younger than ever before.

We know that Wales and its regions can do better, but it is not all doom and gloom is it...?

real constructive there.

Just because I have confidence in that aspect, doesn't mean I don't acknowledge the other difficulties facing all the regions Casartelli. It's called looking at everything, instead of focusing on just one aspect, which in your case is clearly just the negatives.

I do think the negatives are insurmountable in the current structure - but I also think that if the WRU took charge of the current mess, using the painful lessons learned over the past 9 years, they could very quickly turn things around and we'd have a fantastic regional set up.

Tapping in to the repeated success of the test team, which always enjoys huge support, and making the regions one step below national level (as opposed to one step up from club rugby) would be essential - but there are too many old-schoolers around who see it as a 'negative' not to have teams that are essentially rebadged Llanelli/Swansea/Cardiff and Newport. It's the anchor weighing us down.

Casartelli wrote:
Tapping in to the repeated success of the test team, which always enjoys huge support, and making the regions one step below national level (as opposed to one step up from club rugby) would be essential - but there are too many old-schoolers around who see it as a 'negative' not to have teams that are essentially rebadged Llanelli/Swansea/Cardiff and Newport. It's the anchor weighing us down.

Well we can't let it weigh us down can we.

It is the way things are for the future, it is the way things have been for nearing a decade, and it is bringing better results, it is giving us a larger playing base because efforts are more focused on finding talent and progressing that talent and rugby in Wales is better for that. Three Grandslams in the last ten tears and none in the previous thirty speak largely for themselves.

Nostalgia is a large part of our psyche in Wales, but so is progression part of modern Wales. Within ten years there will be a generation of new fans that never knew welsh rugby before regionalism and to discourage those fans from supporting our regions will only spread unnecessary apathy.

In part the current apathy of mature fans is far more to do with over expectation in Europe. Every year Europe gets tougher and it is not so much we are left behind but for all the fantastic work developing young players we struggle financially with the big clubs of France and england as well as the established provinces of Ireland.

The current review by PWC is an intelligent step forward and will hopefully give the WRU and the regions the information they need to concentrate the accounts towards the correct direction.

Casartelli - if the WRU dropped everything an went to you and said fix welsh rugby.

1. Four regions, North, South, East and West?
2. Based where?
3. What grounds would they play in?
4. How would you bring in the support?
5. How would you incetivise the players into joining these new regions instead of chasing the cach elsewhere?
6. How would you propose raising the money to keep the regions afloat, while still forfilling their goals to be successful themselves, and to develope a successful international side?

From what I can see those are pretty much the points you are slagging of the current regions (which are supported by people from around the regions, and not just the folk of one town/city), so your ideas of how to correc the situation, as opposed to just saying its all wrong would be much appreciated.

After all

I was at the Dragons/Blues game - difference in atmopshere at two grounds is astounding. On that alone Dragons should survive.

But anyway, I heard a very pro Newport RFC fan grilling the Cardiff (Blues) staff if there was any truth in Newport RFC becoming a stand alone club and scrapping Dragons. I think this was more wishfull thinking on his part mind and he's in a tiny minority of Dragon's fans.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:The thing about North/East/South/West is that North would have to be Wrexham (population), West would have to be Swansea (population), South - Cardiff (population) and East, Newport (population) and so we effectively have the same geographical division as currently exists with the Scarlets shifted up north. Granted there are many people in South Wales who'd raise a parochial cheer to this the troble being this idea does nothing to reconnect with the valleys - which is the biggest problem we have. Ideal world scenario 10 years ago would have been 4 representative sides N/E/S/W and all players and coaches centrally contracted. Unless the regions agree to disband (won't happen) the only way to achieve that now is through the courts. Anyone up for that? So what we have left are four southern regions in the s.wales rugby heartland and a fifth which has been disenfranchised. The answer is for the three regions closest to the valleys to take up the challenge to bring people on board. Whether we have WRU run representative regional sides or so called superclubs it makes no odds. Someone has to go out and win people over. The Scarlets are increasing their crowds and without having gone out buying loads of players or even winning anything recently. Now at 7k on ave and rising. It's up to the O's, Blues and Dragons to win hearts north of the M4.

RugbyDreamer put me on to this on another thread - but it's often quoted by Llanelli fans so worth exposing here as nonsense. If you're going to base rugby around centres of population then the following are all more worthy than Llanelli of multi-million pound, deferred interest, voodoo finance loans from public bodies (thank you wikipedia);

Wrexham
Rhondda
Barry
Cwmbran
Neath
Bridgend
Port Talbot
Pontypool

and all would probably be more competitive in the Heineken Cup.

which of those is in West Wales?

Doesn't matter. It's easier to get to the Liberty than Parc y Scarlets from down west.

The west region can base themselves in Swansea and take games on the road to Carmarthen, Hwest, Whitland, Llanelli etc.

So I'm sorry, you want regions to represent the whole of Wales, but you don't want a region based in West Wales?

Swansea is not West.

Also there aren't any stadiums big enough or with the required facilitiees further west that PyS to host games. Where are you going to find the money from to develop them for just 1 or 2 games a season?

munkian wrote:I was at the Dragons/Blues game - difference in atmopshere at two grounds is astounding. On that alone Dragons should survive.

But anyway, I heard a very pro Newport RFC fan grilling the Cardiff (Blues) staff if there was any truth in Newport RFC becoming a stand alone club and scrapping Dragons. I think this was more wishfull thinking on his part mind and he's in a tiny minority of Dragon's fans.

Munkian, I had two emails the other day from people who don't know each other both talking of a rumour that Newport RFC had brokered a deal that would allow them to stand alone in place of the Dragons, in exchange for Pontypool remaining in the Welsh prem (the idea being that Newport would not have a team in the welsh prem). I'm from Newport and I'm a former Newport RFC season ticket holder, but I don't agree with this if it is true. I want regions not super clubs, even if some think that's what we've got anyway.

Swansea is definitely west.

Neath, Port Talbot, Pontypridd, Bridgend, Merthyr are 'South' and Cardiff, Newport & Gwent are 'East'. Above the Heads of the Valleys road is 'North'.

The bottom line is that there is no justification to subsidise pro rugby in Llanelli. Llanelli can be included in a bigger 'West' region, obviously, but as a standalone, over the last decade, it has not achieved anything in terms of success on the field or success financially. As a 'population centre' it struggles to make the Top Ten in Wales.

It has had its chance (and then some!) and failed. It cannot continue to drain money indefinitely from the local authority and the WRU.

Base the West team in Swansea and let's move on. Llanelli/Scarlets place is in the Premiership and not the pro leagues.

I'm sorry, but Swansea isn't West, it's South, but not West.

And how is it that as a population centre we are struggling to make the top 10, yet we have the highest attendance of all the regions in Wales? funny that.

Okay, but I bet Wrexham, Barry, Cwmbran and Neath (definitely) could easily draw bigger crowds if they had a pro franchise.

What makes Llanelli so special? Why do they justify a place in the professional set up? Because Grav played there and they beat the All Blacks in the early seventies? The new generation don't care about all that oldschool stuff - they are buying into the Grand Slam and the new squad of players.

And attendance figures mean little if you include season ticket holders regardless of whether or not they turn up! I suspect most were bought by Scarlets Rugby Limited to boost the attendance stats! The place always looks empty on the telly.

The facility at the Scarlets is incredible, there is nothing even close to it further West. Also in the West Llanelli is pretty much the biggest town (car Carmarthen I guess) so it makes sense for both those reasons to have it there.

I just can't see anywhere further West where a region could be based, for it to be a proper West Wales region like you seem to want.

And you clearly don't understand the Scarlets and what they stand for, and what they mean to their current young crop of players. if the players werne't buying into it, then why has Foxy stayed on and renewed his contract?

I'm finishing this discussion with you now Casartelli, as I think it's plain to see we shall never agree, so tis safest to agree to disagree.

Others have pointed out logically where the North, South, East and West regions would be based if we opted for that structure. Not sure what else I can add to waht they've said.

This isn't a dig at the Scarlets, by the way, the whole thing is a shambles and needs to evolve. Cardiff, Newport and Ospreys included.

Otherwise the same debates will be droning on for another 9 years.

And Swansea is most certainly 'west'.

Wales had little clubs and big clubs in the 70's and the national side was good. The big clubs got on with it and the little clubs knew their place.

Cardiff Dave wrote:Wales had little clubs and big clubs in the 70's and the national side was good. The big clubs got on with it and the little clubs knew their place.

Looks like young davie is pro regional after all

[quote="Casartelli"]Okay, but I bet Wrexham, Barry, Cwmbran and Neath (definitely) could easily draw bigger crowds if they had a pro franchise.

Barry is a bit of an odd one in that it has a bigger following for football and Barry Town has had quite relative success, getting to Europe etc. There seems little interest in Barry for rugby which is odd I know.

The old Cwmbran stadium was, at one point being touted as the new home for the Dragons to get away from the attachment of Newport but it never came off and with the re-development of Dave I doubt it ever will now.

It certainly ain't doom!!!

Pre 2003 was the worst international rugby I have ever seen and now we have 3 grandslams, a team full of kids, strength in depth and great academies.

That, plus France want all our players.

There are things we should/could have done better in 2003, but it's certainly been a positive.

3rdGrandslamCame wrote:It certainly ain't doom!!!

Like the name change mate...! Very Stylish.

I think it's clear that Casterelli has a bit of a chip on his/her shoulder. I did mention Wrexham in my list and omitted Llanelli if you noticed (didn't of course) so you completely fudged your reply. I said that there would be very little difference in moving to a representative regional setup bar shifting the Scarlets up north which would probably be wrexham and that whilst this would probably be welcomed by some parochial fans in wales this would not happen without disbanding the current regions and some big court cases.

So in conclusion:

a. You completely missed my point.
b. You sound suspiciously like a member of the hate the scarlets brigade.

Not particularly against the Scarlets specifically mate. He just really dislikes the regional set up.

Though I still haven't seen any suggestions from him that would leave me inclined to think that he has any remarkable innovations for the future.

maestegmafia wrote:Not particularly against the Scarlets specifically mate. He just really dislikes the regional set up.

Though I still haven't seen any suggestions from him that would leave me inclined to think that he has any remarkable innovations for the future.

That's probably true.

My take on the problems in the regional setup:

Scarlets - don't have the resources to properly develop North Wales rugby but doing very well out west and have cut cloth according to finances after getting rid of the great white dope (Gallacher - RRW get rid of him ASAP!). WRU must take on the NW development mantle.
Ospreys - big falling out with Neath not to mention many coaches - need to mend bridges.
Blues - have yet to win hearts and minds in RCT - really need to step up as a regional presence.
Dragons - have yet to win hearts and minds in the Gwent valleys - really need to step up as a regional presence.

Generally - the regions are up against it with the financial pressure coming from France but lots of youngsters coming through the academies, fitter and stronger than ever. Gatland (despite my misgivings) has proved his worth as an international coach and is making good use of the resources at his disposal. The national team and WRU remains the great cash cow that's keeping the game afloat - we have to ensure success at that level to support the regional game and all the good development work that's taking place.

Not perfect, but not all bad. In all something to build on.

rugbydreamer wrote:The facility at the Scarlets is incredible, there is nothing even close to it further West. Also in the West Llanelli is pretty much the biggest town (car Carmarthen I guess) so it makes sense for both those reasons to have it there.

I just can't see anywhere further West where a region could be based, for it to be a proper West Wales region like you seem to want.

And you clearly don't understand the Scarlets and what they stand for, and what they mean to their current young crop of players. if the players werne't buying into it, then why has Foxy stayed on and renewed his contract?

I'm finishing this discussion with you now Casartelli, as I think it's plain to see we shall never agree, so tis safest to agree to disagree.

Others have pointed out logically where the North, South, East and West regions would be based if we opted for that structure. Not sure what else I can add to waht they've said.

Actually Dreamer Llanelli town is 40-50k the old borough (inc tumble, burry port, trimsaran etc) being about 90K. Carmarthen town is about 13k with Sir Gar being 130k in total. The Llanelli catchment makes up the majority of the population by far.

Scarlet your not far wrong there, except from my experience the Dragons are probably going the best in terms of regionalism.

I would like to put a possible idea out there, that I have been for a while.

We go back to a club league, 12 clubs, 3 clubs under each regional umbrella. We play a proffesional league throughout the season but maintain regional status for the HC. Ditching the Rabo which is dominated by Irish money at present.

I think we are a unique nation, we are too small for a proffessional league to compete in Europe, but we thrive on beating each other. I think we'd see participation and crowds rise, not only per club but throughout. When the HC come around the excitement of watching your best club players play against the best in europe would create a buzz around the regions, and I think we'd start selling out the stadiums.

As long as clubs were restricted heavily in foreign player involvement, we would start growing a much larger player base, and they would be exposed to european rugby too.

I know it's similar to the super set up but I honestly think it'd solve a lot of problems.

It always was going to be something to build on and I think we are building well. The harder the regional and international players can push each other the better. More young welsh players is the key to that.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Scarlet your not far wrong there, except from my experience the Dragons are probably going the best in terms of regionalism.

I would like to put a possible idea out there, that I have been for a while.

We go back to a club league, 12 clubs, 3 clubs under each regional umbrella. We play a proffesional league throughout the season but maintain regional status for the HC. Ditching the Rabo which is dominated by Irish money at present.

I think we are a unique nation, we are too small for a proffessional league to compete in Europe, but we thrive on beating each other. I think we'd see participation and crowds rise, not only per club but throughout. When the HC come around the excitement of watching your best club players play against the best in europe would create a buzz around the regions, and I think we'd start selling out the stadiums.

As long as clubs were restricted heavily in foreign player involvement, we would start growing a much larger player base, and they would be exposed to european rugby too.

I know it's similar to the super set up but I honestly think it'd solve a lot of problems.

That is essentially no different to regional rugby. And with more clubs the WRU would have less control over the directions those clubs should take. We could hypothetically end up with a wealthy owner buying a club, filling it with foreign players and winning everything with no benefit to welsh rugby or the players?

No we couldn't. As is now you submit salary caps and NWQ limits.

This is a professional 12 club league, which would stretch the WRU slightly, but with the regions (who only compete in the HC) being much more regulated control would be kept easily enough.

We could even limit the regions to WQ players only?!

maestegmafia wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Scarlet your not far wrong there, except from my experience the Dragons are probably going the best in terms of regionalism.

I would like to put a possible idea out there, that I have been for a while.

We go back to a club league, 12 clubs, 3 clubs under each regional umbrella. We play a proffesional league throughout the season but maintain regional status for the HC. Ditching the Rabo which is dominated by Irish money at present.

I think we are a unique nation, we are too small for a proffessional league to compete in Europe, but we thrive on beating each other. I think we'd see participation and crowds rise, not only per club but throughout. When the HC come around the excitement of watching your best club players play against the best in europe would create a buzz around the regions, and I think we'd start selling out the stadiums.

As long as clubs were restricted heavily in foreign player involvement, we would start growing a much larger player base, and they would be exposed to european rugby too.

I know it's similar to the super set up but I honestly think it'd solve a lot of problems.

That is essentially no different to regional rugby. And with more clubs the WRU would have less control over the directions those clubs should take. We could hypothetically end up with a wealthy owner buying a club, filling it with foreign players and winning everything with no benefit to welsh rugby or the players?

It is very similar. Really it just boils down to who runs the regions - the clubs and benefactors or the WRU? Not a terrible idea but not altogether different. Worth looking at NZ's NPC in my opinion. A similar idea done very well.

I think the NZ model is a good one, I think a mix of more regional players, those outside the Welsh squad playing in the premiership could help. I know that the WRU line is that strengthening the premiership is the way forward to better regional performance, better regional performance would mean bett international performance and success at regional level would encourage more support for the regions.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:The facility at the Scarlets is incredible, there is nothing even close to it further West. Also in the West Llanelli is pretty much the biggest town (car Carmarthen I guess) so it makes sense for both those reasons to have it there.

I just can't see anywhere further West where a region could be based, for it to be a proper West Wales region like you seem to want.

And you clearly don't understand the Scarlets and what they stand for, and what they mean to their current young crop of players. if the players werne't buying into it, then why has Foxy stayed on and renewed his contract?

I'm finishing this discussion with you now Casartelli, as I think it's plain to see we shall never agree, so tis safest to agree to disagree.

Others have pointed out logically where the North, South, East and West regions would be based if we opted for that structure. Not sure what else I can add to waht they've said.

Actually Dreamer Llanelli town is 40-50k the old borough (inc tumble, burry port, trimsaran etc) being about 90K. Carmarthen town is about 13k with Sir Gar being 130k in total. The Llanelli catchment makes up the majority of the population by far.

Aha I stand corrected, didn't realise Llanelli was that much bigger (am not from the town see, only go there for the rugby!).

I think I'm actually finding some common ground here with MaestegMafia, Totally Biased Scarlet and Dreamer!

WRU taking control of the superclubs/regions would be a massive step forward. The benefactors can still sponsor teams if they want, so they can have a corporate box to swank around with their business chums, which is all they care about - but it would also open the door to proper sponsorship from deep pockets like Admiral, Specsavers, Welsh Water etc etc.

This would tap directly into the success of the national team, without this old fashioned link to town clubs, which is crippling the game.

I'm certainly not a Scarlets hater - I bet I've been down there more often than Dreamer has - cheering them on over the years, and if they were a dominant force in Europe, drawing in 15k+ crowds (which as a team that has 'always been a regional side of the west' they should easily achieve) I'd say leave things as they are. I'd love to see Llanelli dominating the Premiership and leading the domestic game towards being a true feeder for pro regions.

The difference between us is that, if we do adopt full, professional regions, which is bound to happen sooner or later, I don't think there is a place in it for a team called the 'Scarlets' (which is, let's face it, just Llanelli), playing all its home games in a fairly small town, slowly going bankrupt, hoping that one day things will get better.

A 'West' team, however, would be fantastic.

Just re-name them West-Wales then .

P.S. The Provincial model is successful in Ireland because they have the geography for it. It is successful in NZ because they have the geography and the season structure for it (NPC, Super 15 followed by June tests then Quad Nations). It wouldn't work here, we just need to improve what we already have.

Well the NZ franchises are basically super clubs as well...

Yeah, except they don't get any bitching from the rugby fans. Strange that. Although teams like Crusaders and Chiefs dropped Canterbury and Waikato from their names. They usually move games around too, each Franchise has around 3 home stadiums. You'd probably have to ask someone from NZ how it was/is though.

True but NZ and the rest of the "new world" don't have the traditional tribalistic club history of Europe so it was probably less of a transition for them.

Morgannwg wrote:Just re-name them West-Wales then .

P.S. The Provincial model is successful in Ireland because they have the geography for it. It is successful in NZ because they have the geography and the season structure for it (NPC, Super 15 followed by June tests then Quad Nations). It wouldn't work here, we just need to improve what we already have.

That's exactly what I'm saying.

West Wales evolve from the Scarlets - and play games everywhere from Swansea to Hwest.

Ospreys evolve into South Wales and play in Neath, Port Talbot, Bridgend, Ponty, Merthyr etc.

Cardiff and Newport become the East and roam around the Arms Park, Rodney Parade, up the Gwent valleys.

The resources that are left over are used to make the North a proper development region.

This is taking what we have now and improving it.

It's only small town mentaility ("we want rugby in our town and our town only") that stops everyone embracing it now - but finances will dictate that it is inevitable sooner or later.

gowales wrote:True but NZ and the rest of the "new world" don't have the traditional tribalistic club history of Europe so it was probably less of a transition for them.

Why not? Their clubs have been around as long as ours.

Casartelli, Swansea wouldn't be part of it. Them and Llanelli would never merge. They'll have to be south Wales too, with Blues and Dragons becoming East.

Morgannwg wrote:

gowales wrote:True but NZ and the rest of the "new world" don't have the traditional tribalistic club history of Europe so it was probably less of a transition for them.

Why not? Their clubs have been around as long as ours.

Different cultures Morgs, different cultures

Morgannwg wrote:Casartelli, Swansea wouldn't be part of it. Them and Llanelli would never merge. They'll have to be south Wales too, with Blues and Dragons becoming East.

See - it's this weird, living in the past, insular thinking that I don't understand.

It's nothing to do with Llanelli & Swansea and whether people from those small towns like each other or not.

We're talking about a West Wales team. Llanelli and Swansea have a place in the Premiership, not in pro rugby. If Llanelli and Swansea need a small town rivalry (that the rest of the world couldn't give a stuff about) then it should be 'we're going to get more boys into the West team than those lot over the river'.

Healthy see.

It should all be about building for the Wales team. Tribal local pettiness makes us look like some retarded third world backwater - and stops us progressing. We should have 2 or 3 competitive teams in Europe by now - supporting the test team.

I'm for the idea tbh if the WRU had full control and issues central contracts. That way some players from the current 4 Regions could be sent to the North Wales team.

Yeah - all it needs is strong leadership from the WRU and the majority of knowledgeable rugby fans in Wales wanting to put the needs of the national team above whether or not superclubs are based in one specific town.....

rugbydreamer wrote:I'm sorry, but Swansea isn't West, it's South, but not West.

Dreamer is right, Swansea is in Glamorganshire which is in South Wales. West Wales is Carmarthenshire and Pembrokeshire.

.

Posted on the wrong thread! Now removed!

AlynDavies wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:I'm sorry, but Swansea isn't West, it's South, but not West.

Dreamer is right, Swansea is in Glamorganshire which is in South Wales. West Wales is Carmarthenshire and Pembrokeshire.

"Glamorganshire" hasn't existed since 1974. If you're going to suck up to Dreamer, at least try and keep it at least slightly relevant and topical.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
1. Four regions, North, South, East and West?
2. Based where?
3. What grounds would they play in?
4. How would you bring in the support?
5. How would you incetivise the players into joining these new regions instead of chasing the cach elsewhere?
6. How would you propose raising the money to keep the regions afloat, while still forfilling their goals to be successful themselves, and to develope a successful international side?

1)
Glamorganshire
West Wales
Gwent
North Wales

2)
Cardiff
Llanelli
Newport
Colwyn Bay

3
Millemium Stadium
Park Y Scarlets
Rodney Parade
Park Erias

4
I'd do what the French used to do, let everyone in free and make the money via shop and food sales.

5
Centrally contract them under the WRU, so the regions are not competing and slitting each others throats, I'd also introduce a draft system to help strength in depth. Each region would be able to nominate 26 existing players, the other 12 squad players would be done from a pool of unwanted players from other regions.

6
We have enough money now, the problem is the regions try and out compete each other and pushes up prices, many average players are on big money while foreign players are brought in when Welsh premiership players could do just as well.

And in 1974, Swansea was incorporated into the new WEST Glamorgan.

WEST.