Your Current British Boxing Top Ten

Hasn't been done in a little while

Mine is as follows

1.Khan
2.Froch
3.Brook
4.Burns
5.Afolabi
6.Macklin
7.Barker
8.Mitchell
9.Chisora
10.Groves

Now, you may be aware that I have left out a certain WBO LH Champ. I have based my rankings purely on talent, performance (as cards are more frequently screwing fighters who perform well) and level of opposition. World titles don't come into it as much, given the state of boxing. Also, I actually think Bellew might have nicked it v Clev (although very close), so if he is not there, leaves no room for Clev.

1 Froch
2 Khan
3 Burns
4 Cleverly
5 Brook
6 Macklin
7 Barker
8 Groves
9 Degale
10 Chisora

sugar, i forgot chisora. Editing mine

rowley wrote:1 Froch
2 Khan
3 Burns
4 Cleverly
5 Brook
6 Macklin
7 Barker
8 Groves
9 Degale
10 Chisora

Fairly similar to mine there Rowley - interesting we both omit Fury. Personalyl I think Chisora would have beaten him if fit and his performances since have shown im in a very good light (he beat Helenius by several rounds for me)

Fury has gone backwards opposition wise since Chisora, and although I am still to see the Helenius fight i have been assured by enough people I respect that Dereck was absolutely robbed, also think what was lost in all the nonsense was he had his moments in the Vitali fight, for all intents beating a world ranked heavy and performing well against arguably the best heavy in the world makes up for the Fury loss as far as I am concerned.

Seanusarrilius wrote:Hasn't been done in a little while

https://www.606v2.com/t28274-p4p-british-rankings

?

Anyway...

1. Froch
2. Khan
3. Brook
4. Burns
5. Cleverly
6. Macklin
7. Barker
8. Groves
9. Chisora
10. Afolabi

I would have Fury in there, but can't, as he has decided that he is Irish.

rowley wrote:Fury has gone backwards opposition wise since Chisora, and although I am still to see the Helenius fight i have been assured by enough people I respect that Dereck was absolutely robbed, also think what was lost in all the nonsense was he had his moments in the Vitali fight, for all intents beating a world ranked heavy and performing well against arguably the best heavy in the world makes up for the Fury loss as far as I am concerned.

Agreed

Hellenius was one armed against Chisora though. Think that fight has a whole load of question marks over it.

Cant see any basis for not having Cleverly in the top ten myself. Aside from holding a title he has beaten at least one top ten ranked guy which is more than DeGale or Groves has done to date. He has also cleaned up domestically and at Euro level against Macintosh, Oakey, Bellew and Brancalion. The likes of DeGale and Chisora havent even established themselves as the best domestically yet in their divisions.

manos de piedra wrote:Hellenius was one armed against Chisora though. Think that fight has a whole load of question marks over it.

Cant see any basis for not having Cleverly in the top ten myself. Aside from holding a title he has beaten at least one top ten ranked guy which is more than DeGale or Groves has done to date. He has also cleaned up domestically and at Euro level against Macintosh, Oakey, Bellew and Brancalion. The likes of DeGale and Chisora havent even established themselves as the best domestically yet in their divisions.

I am not expecting much support in leaving Clev out tbh and there is a large possibility I have become so disallusioned with him that I have acted inappropriatley. But none the less.

Bellew nearly squeezed in for me and Fury too.

Union Cane wrote:

Seanusarrilius wrote:Hasn't been done in a little while

https://www.606v2.com/t28274-p4p-british-rankings

?

Anyway...

1. Froch
2. Khan
3. Brook
4. Burns
5. Cleverly
6. Macklin
7. Barker
8. Groves
9. Chisora
10. Afolabi

I would have Fury in there, but can't, as he has decided that he is Irish.

Afolabi, good shout. Like him a lot and he is British/Nigerian/USA/German. Hmmm I am editing AGAIN

1) Froch 2) Khan 3) Burns 4) Brook 5) Macklin 6) Cleverly 7) Barker 8) Murray 9) Chisora 10) Fury

Unfortunately, I think if Chisora gets in, then Fury can't be more than a single spot behind in light of his win over him. Chisora's gallant effort (which he's perhaps received a little too much credit for, I think) against Vitali might edge him in front, along with his (what I'd consider to be) better skill set, but I can't find it within myself to completely write off what happened when they fought, or shake the feeling that Fury could have acquitted himself just as well against the same opponent. That was by no means a peak Vitali that Chisora was up against, I'd think, and while he showed plenty of spirit, he did ultimately lose the fight just as wide a margin as Haye (who was derided by comparison) did against Wladimir.

That's a good l;ist Chris. I have afolabi in there now that I remembered him. Afolabi was unlucky not to beat Huck the first time, sparked Enzo and has real talent. Can be hit or miss, but I like him.

I find it hard to actually compile the list because when you limit it ot just British fighters there is such a massive variance in terms of the level of competition they are facing. You end up getting fighters like Macklin and Chisora getting more credit for losing efforts than guys like Cleverly or Fury are for winning efforts on the basis of the competition faced.

1. Froch
2. Khan
3. Brook
4. Burns
5. Macklin
6. Barker
7. Murray
8. Chisora
9. Cleverly
10. Fury

khan
froch
brook
cleverly
mitchell
burns
magee
macklin
fury
mcdonnell

not a fan of fury but was confident he'd beat chisora and i reckon he'd beat him again if they fought tomorrow, too many people righting that result off to suit their own agenda. also magee would beat degale or groves at the moment i reckon. hope mitchell fights burns, i would heavily back mitchell for that one.

Mine would be

1) Amir Khan
2) Carl Froch
3) Ricky Burns
4) Nathan Cleverly
5) Kell Brook
6) Matthew Macklin
7) George Groves
8) Tony Bellew
9) Martin Murray
10) James DeGale

Based on opposition and the way they look when they box

1) Carl Froch
2) Ricky Burns
3) Amir Khan
4) Kell Brook
5) Darren Barker
6) Matthew Macklin
7) Derek Chisora
8) Ola Afolabi
9) George Groves
10) James Degale

I haven't included Cleverly because he hasn't had any opponents that suggest to me he's in the top 10 of his weight class. The rest of the list are in the top 10's of their weight class in unbiased lists.

Narrowly missing out are Martin Murray, Kevin Mitchell and John Murray. I haven't included Fury because he's Irish. Otherwise I'd have McCloskey in there.

Have to say with the greatest of respect people are being more than a little daft excluding Cleverly from these lists, appreciate people do not care for his career choices thus far or his level of opposition and in truth neither do I but Murat was genuinely world ranked at the time Cleverly beat him and in reality is easily as good as anything on the ledger of Groves, Degale or Brook to name but three. Should not let a dislike of the man affect his place in the rankings.

I really dont get not ranking Cleverly at all. What unbiased lists dont have Cleverly in the top ten in his division? His opposition and record are better than Groves and DeGale for instance. Dont have any issue with Groves and DeGale being seen as better prospects but they definately havent acheived as much to date. Hes beaten all at his domestic rivals - something Chisora and DeGale havent done. I just dont see what the likes of Barker, Chisora, DeGale and Groves have done to place higher.

Theres definately seems to be some kind of sense of punishing Cleverly for his last two defences. He was higher rated when he wasnt a world champion it seems.

Its his performances more than anything. I don't see "p4p" as meaning "who's done well" I see them on a level playing field, almost as if there isn't a weightclass system and assess them by those standards.

I think at any weight, the people I've mentioned beat Cleverly. being a champion doesn't mean he's the best or even close to at his weight. If you did a top 10 of light-heavyweights, would Cleverly be in there?

Spot on, Jeff. Manos touched upon it earlier, too. I had Cleverly at number six but wouldn't object to him even being a spot or two higher.

Cleverly has demonstrated that he is, at the very least, the best in his division in Britain. Considering the likes of DeGale, Chisora, Murray etc (so far) haven't managed this, putting them ahead of Cleverly is a little off base, I'd say.

JabMachineMK2 wrote:Its his performances more than anything. I don't see "p4p" as meaning "who's done well" I see them on a level playing field, almost as if there isn't a weightclass system and assess them by those standards.

I think at any weight, the people I've mentioned beat Cleverly. being a champion doesn't mean he's the best or even close to at his weight. If you did a top 10 of light-heavyweights, would Cleverly be in there?

What do you mean? I presume you dont think Burns beats Cleverly?

I dont really understand the point about no weightclass system. The whole issue is that weight is accounted for.

Who would your top ten light heavyweights be?

JabMachineMK2 wrote: If you did a top 10 of light-heavyweights, would Cleverly be in there?

Don't really know enough about the modern game to comment but the Ring have him at four

http://ringtv.craveonline.com/ratings/light-heavyweight

Am only guessing and can't be bothered to look but would guess this ranking compares reasonably favourably with where other brits are ranked in their respective divisions

Its hard to ignore acheivement because its a tangible measurement of a fighters ability. When fighters are in different weight classes it hard to compare directly so you need to try form some kind of consistent basis of comparison.

The biggest difficulty when looking at the domestic scene is trying to account for the quite significant difference in the level opposition faced. Macklin has probably risen in many peoples list despite losing his last two fights on the bounce. Likewise Chisora. I think Chisora is overcredited and seems to get a pass for losing to Fury but can appreciate that Macklin going to the wire with Sturm and pushing Martinez all the way is probably more impressive than DeGale beating Sanavia or Fury beating Rogan for instance.

Performance. If Ricky Burns were the same weight as Cleverly he'd beat him.

Same as if Amir Khan was the same weight as Derek Chisora he'd annihilate him, and Carl Froch would just about beat anyone.

I'm entitled to my opinion without being called "more than a little daft" - my dislike for Cleverly doesn't come into the fact he has only beaten one properly ranked light heavyweight well. He's had enough fights now to have had at least 4/5 of those calibre of fights, and he hasn't. He struggled with Bellew and couldn't get Karpency out of there. Groves and Degale gave a great spectacle, are only halfway through their likely fight totals and are already knocking on doors and performing well.

Your top 10 light heavies then JM2?

Didn't the doctors come out after the Bellew fight and say Clev had a cracked rib or something? Can attribute some of that to the performance against Bellew, throw in that Bellew isn't as bad as some people would have you believe.

Fair play - Cleverly makes a top 10 LHW but only at number 8

1. B Hop
2. Cloud
3. Dawson
4. Shumenov
5. Pascal
6. Erdei
7. Brahamer (sp?)
8. Cleverley
9. Gutkneck (sp?)
10. Miranda

I'm aware my spelling of some of them is wrong, however I'm on my phone and I can't check.

Just doesnt seem to be much consistency in the rankings. Cleverly beating one top ten ranked opponent is 1 more than most guys on the list. Possibly only Froch, Khan and Burns have beaten more.

If Khan was 230lbs he would be completely different in terms of skillset and attributes to the point where its almost completely abstract.

Your opinion on Cleverly is being contested because of your claims that most unbiased lists dont have him top ten or he wouldnt be top in the top ten in his division.

I dont rate Cleverly highly but I cant think of ten light heavyweights out there that would be surefire to rank above him. In reality I dont think hes the 4th best in the division but I would have him in the lower reaches of the top ten and I think winning the British, Commonwealth, European and then an alphabet title entitles him to some benefit of the doubt that he doesnt get much of.

Froch
Khan
Burns
Brook
Macklin
Barker
Chisora
De Gale
Groves
Frampton

You're being difficult there Manos. You also have to consider the stages of their careers they're at, how many fights in etc. What I mean is that p4p should be based upon a lot more than just achievements. If Khan fought Cleverly at LHW and had the ability (not speed/strength) but the natural boxing ability then he'd win. I think if Groves stepped up a weight, he'd paste Cleverly everywhere. I think if Chisora were slimmer and fought Clev then he'd deck him through pressure. Beating one world class opponent 24 fights into a career doesn't impress me.

hampo171 wrote:Didn't the doctors come out after the Bellew fight and say Clev had a cracked rib or something? Can attribute some of that to the performance against Bellew, throw in that Bellew isn't as bad as some people would have you believe.

I have to say I don't believe a word of he had a cracked rib malarkey. I had a cracked rib and could barely sit up from chair without wincing in pain, never mind going 12 rounds getting punched to the body without a flinch.

I am also perplex with people omitting Cleverly from there list. He has gone the correct way in his career Commonwealth, British, European and then a World title. He has face better quality opposition the most on that list. Murat was a good win, and is still ranked in the Ring top 10 now. It wasn’t his fault he couldn't get Braehmar in the ring with him.

Shumenov as high as number four, JM? Can't say I rate him, and I'd say he and Cleverly are on an equal footing if anything. Got an absolute gift against Campillo and hasn't looked all that good since.

I think the only Light-Heavyweight names I could unequivocally have in front of Cleverly would be Hopkins, Pascal, Dawson and Cloud, given that Erdei has practically vanished off the face of the earth in terms of meaningful match ups.

JM, I do see your point to an extent with regards to rating what you physically see and negating to consider actual achievements, but it doesn't really sit well with me. If we took that attitude to all fighters, for instance, then Henry Armstrong might not even make an all-time top ten, when the reality is that he's arguably the number one.

JabMachineMK2 wrote:You're being difficult there Manos. You also have to consider the stages of their careers they're at, how many fights in etc. What I mean is that p4p should be based upon a lot more than just achievements. If Khan fought Cleverly at LHW and had the ability (not speed/strength) but the natural boxing ability then he'd win. I think if Groves stepped up a weight, he'd paste Cleverly everywhere. I think if Chisora were slimmer and fought Clev then he'd deck him through pressure. Beating one world class opponent 24 fights into a career doesn't impress me.

The impression I get is what that your doing list basically on who you think is the best fighter solely, regardless of what they have acheived to date?

For example you think Groves is just a better fighter than Cleverly notwithstanding that he has yet to acheive as much, thus he is ranked higher on your list. I dont really have an issue with that if thats the way you interpret your list. But initially it seemed like you were dismissing Cleverly on the basis of opposition and ranking which he is actually superior to Groves in.

Pound for pound is a loose, hazy term that fairly open to interpretation but personally I find it difficult to ignore what a fighter has achieved to date because its a tangible representation of quality as opposed to just mere speculation. For instance prior to Ward beating Froch I suspected he was a better fighter than Martinez (still do) but it wasnt until after he won the S6 that I felt he had earned the right to contest a spot over Martinez.

I wouldnt agree with the method that its relevant what stage of the career Cleverly or Groves are. I think pound for pound is basically meant to be a reflection of what fighters are best, allowing for weight. I dont think Groves deserves any extra allowance because hes had less fights. Thats not really what pound for pound is meant to be in my view. If you were talking in terms of potential then I would fully agree that Groves having less fights is relevant but I think pound for pound is meant to be who is better right now. If you think Groves is better than Cleverly right now, fair enough. You may be right. But I think Cleverly has the better tangible argument to rank higher is my point.

JabMachineMK2 wrote:Fair play - Cleverly makes a top 10 LHW but only at number 8

1. B Hop
2. Cloud
3. Dawson
4. Shumenov
5. Pascal
6. Erdei
7. Brahamer (sp?)
8. Cleverley
9. Gutkneck (sp?)
10. Miranda

I'm aware my spelling of some of them is wrong, however I'm on my phone and I can't check.

You have Cloud at 2 who was (IMO!) schooled by Campilo and Shumenov 4 who I also feel Campilo has beaten both times

Erdei at 6 who hasnt fought anyone of note since 2004

Braehmer at 7 who hasnt fought anyone of note since 2008

Gutknecht at 9 who scrapped a SD against some no mark in his last fight

Miranda at 10 who has recently well beat by Chilemba

No Murat, Campilo, Diaconu or Sillakh?

I doubt anyone would have that approach when it came to Armstrong, Chris.

I'm not denouncing him completely, he probably sits around 11th for me infront of Bellew due to his win.

I'm basing my list on p4p as in what they're like now. If you think that Cleverly beats the rest on the list based on his previous outings if they were at the same weight then thats your opinion, and by the looks of things most other peoples.

I just can't look past Cleverly struggling with Karpency. he is going backwards and I can't see him being a champion we look at in 10 years time as being anything but a well matched LHW who got found out.

I don't have Murat in my top 10 because he was beaten by Cleverly.

As others have alluded to achievement and level of opposition has to be a consideration in where we rank fighters, personally am of the view that Kirkland Laing is a more gifted fighter than Ricky Hatton, would that justify me putting him above him in an all time British ranking?

manos de piedra wrote:I really dont get not ranking Cleverly at all.

Theres definately seems to be some kind of sense of punishing Cleverly for his last two defences. He was higher rated when he wasnt a world champion it seems.

Cleverly is the lowest of the low mate and I would have rat vermin in this list before I have that piece of dirt in my British top 10

rowley wrote:Have to say with the greatest of respect people are being more than a little daft excluding Cleverly from these lists

All justified to me Jeff. I wouldnt even have Cleverly in the British top 20. The guy is a joke

Right, I done mine without looking at anyone elses to see how similar they are. For some reason I felt obliged to stick Kevin Mitchell in there (coz he is class IMO init), but couldn't justify it with Afolabi and Chisora holding their own and looking impressive recently.

1. Froch
2. Khan
3. Brook
4. Burns
5. Macklin
6. Groves
7. Barker
8. Cleverly
9. Chisora
10. Afolabi

I DID have to edit this as I rated DeGale at number 10, with Chisora and Afolabi moving up a space (I didn't have Cleverly in). But on reflection, it would be stupid not to include him. He would be rated higher had it not been for 2 recently poor performances.

1. Froch
2. Khan
3. Burns
4. Brook
5. Macklin
6. Cleverly
7. Murray
8. Groves
9. Barker
10. Fury

Those of you having Froch in 1st/2nd/3rd obviously have forgotten the lesson he got from Ward.

rowley wrote:Have to say with the greatest of respect people are being more than a little daft excluding Cleverly from these lists, appreciate people do not care for his career choices thus far or his level of opposition and in truth neither do I but Murat was genuinely world ranked at the time Cleverly beat him and in reality is easily as good as anything on the ledger of Groves, Degale or Brook to name but three. Should not let a dislike of the man affect his place in the rankings.

You are probably right Rowley, and after my hissy fit last week I can't argue with you. You're a good egg Rowley. I think I am just so fed up with his level of opp I have forgotten he is decent enough for our top ten, if not great. That said, I am leaving him out haha

Steffan wrote:

rowley wrote:Have to say with the greatest of respect people are being more than a little daft excluding Cleverly from these lists

All justified to me Jeff. I wouldnt even have Cleverly in the British top 20. The guy is a joke

I climbed Snowdon once, it was lovely.

Seanusarrilius wrote:I climbed Snowdon once, it was lovely.

Lisa?

Not a problem Sean, do think Clev has become a bit of a poster boy on here for all the ills of the sport, am far from suggesting he does not deserve grief but definitely think a sense of proportion has been missing at times.

Josiah Maiestas wrote:Those of you having Froch in 1st/2nd/3rd obviously have forgotten the lesson he got from Ward.

No shame to losing Ward, he is a real talent. Like slamming Hatton for losing to Mayweather.

Josiah Maiestas wrote:Those of you having Froch in 1st/2nd/3rd obviously have forgotten the lesson he got from Ward.

Which three would you have above Froch then?

Soldier_Of_Fortune wrote:

Josiah Maiestas wrote:Those of you having Froch in 1st/2nd/3rd obviously have forgotten the lesson he got from Ward.

No shame to losing Ward, he is a real talent. Like slamming Hatton for losing to Mayweather.

Got to agree, there are only really two fighters who have been mixing in world level on a consistent basis over the last couple of years and that is Froch and Khan, I would have no issue with anyone seeing them two the opposite way to me but I had Khan behind Froch solely because I think losing to Petersen is a little less understandable than losing to a genuinely top drawer operator like Ward.

Union Cane wrote:

Seanusarrilius wrote:Hasn't been done in a little while

https://www.606v2.com/t28274-p4p-british-rankings

?

Anyway...

1. Froch
2. Khan
3. Brook
4. Burns
5. Cleverly
6. Macklin
7. Barker
8. Groves
9. Chisora
10. Afolabi

I would have Fury in there, but can't, as he has decided that he is Irish.

i would have fury in the top ten but cant because hes rubbish !!