Ireland vs New Zealand 2nd Test: Team announcements and matchday thread.

by **Biltong** Mon 11 Jun 2012 - 16:01

First topic message reminder :

Sorry boys new thread other one is full.

Venue for the 2nd test: AMI Stadium (Addington) - formerly Rugby League Park Christchurch
Capacity: 26,000 incl. temporary seating
Weather http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/2192362 (current forecast for Saturday evening is around 3 degrees C and light rain. But last week's snow has melted at least)

courtesy of Taylorman:

NZ team named- only one change- Thompson for Vito (injured) with Sam Cane on the bench...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/7098902/Thomson-in-for-Vito-Cane-on-All-Blacks-bench

All Blacks: Israel Dagg, Zac Guildford, Conrad Smith, Sonny Bill Williams, Julian Savea, Dan Carter, Aaron Smith, Kieran Read, Richie McCaw (c), Adam Thomson, Sam Whitelock, Brodie Retallick, Owen Franks, Andrew Hore, Tony Woodcock.

Reserves: Hika Elliot, Ben Franks, Sam Cane, Ali Williams, Piri Weepu, Aaron Cruden, Ben Smith

Irish team:
15 - Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
14 - Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
13 - Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster) (capt)
12 - Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
11 - Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
10 - Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
9 - Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
1 - Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster
2 - Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
3 - Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
4 - Dan Tuohy (Ballymena/Ulster)
5 - Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
6 - Kevin McLaughlin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
7 - Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster)
8 - Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)

Replacements:

16 - Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
17 - Declan Fitzpatrick (Dungannon/Ulster)
18 - Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
19 - Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)
20 - Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
21 - Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
22 - Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster)

Tour Previews
http://www.v2journal.com/new-zealands-june-tests-preview.html
http://www.v2journal.com/irelands-summer-tour.html

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Mon 11 Jun 2012 - 23:37

Notch wrote:
Rava wrote:You know what. It would be great to debat the title of the article.
Earls won't be playing this weekend and ROG (unfortunately) will be on the bench.

Couldn't agree enough- we are having debates about Madigan, Earls, O'Gara. Only one of them is going to be in 22 ffs. And will almost certainly not start.

Though if Kidney does decide to start ROG this thread will get really heated really quickly

Dear Declan.
Please start RoG.
We promise not to run SBW over him too often.
Regards, Steve H

Wink

by **Biltong** Mon 11 Jun 2012 - 23:41

Kiwireddevil wrote:
Notch wrote:
Rava wrote:You know what. It would be great to debat the title of the article.
Earls won't be playing this weekend and ROG (unfortunately) will be on the bench.

Couldn't agree enough- we are having debates about Madigan, Earls, O'Gara. Only one of them is going to be in 22 ffs. And will almost certainly not start.

Though if Kidney does decide to start ROG this thread will get really heated really quickly

Dear Declan.
Please start RoG.
We promise not to run SBW over him too often.
Regards, Steve H

ooh, that's low kiwi. Whistle

I think SBW is over O'Gara.

Ireland vs New Zealand 2nd Test: Team announcements and matchday thread. - Page 4 Smiley-laughing021

get it... over him....you know, over not around

agh forget it. Rolling Eyes

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 11 Jun 2012 - 23:41

Come on, surely ROG will NOT be starting any of the games. That would be it for me.

by Sin é Mon 11 Jun 2012 - 23:53

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=10812123

Hapless Irish ripe for crushing
By Chris Rattue
5:30 AM Monday Jun 11, 2012

The Irish are in for one helluva hiding in the second test, and heaven help them in the third.

The forlorn hope a few of us old romantics had of an epic contest unfolding in this historic three-game series was laid to rest in the first half of the opening test at Eden Park.

The Irish, battered and bruised after a long and unsuccessful season, ended up with more lumps knocked out of their front row and, the fact is, the mob that has ended up in this country isn't good enough to beat the All Blacks anyway.

Ireland had to be in fine fettle, with their spirits high, to test the home side. They needed a feasible game plan to work off. Yes, the TV commentators gushed as Ireland chucked the ball around early on, but a decidedly inferior team playing wild rugby against the All Blacks in this country represents an invitation to disaster.

Those Irish salvos looked more like attempts to have something in the bank to save face with before the inevitable landslide buried them. Which it did.

The concerning aspect for the Irish, and those of us thirsting for a quality museum piece rather than an exhibition, is that the All Blacks didn't win going away. They triumphed by a whopping 32 points despite stalling for much of the second half for no particular reason - and certainly not one involving anything memorable from Ireland.

They won't stall again.

Trench warfare, slowing the game down and kicking with brains - those had to be the battle cries if the Irish were serious about this assignment. Only a tough-nut forward pack and halves prepared to play clever percentages would get close to getting this job done. In other words, they needed to play like England did in 2003.

Had Ireland brought over their very best pack, and not suffered a weird list of injuries to their props after arriving here, they may have had a chance ... of creating a contest. Maybe.

But they haven't and are in danger now of sending out a front row ripe to be crushed into the ground in Christchurch and Hamilton.

In the sort of form Daniel Carter has already shown, and with Sonny Bill Williams yet to unleash his big guns, you can only fear for the Irish. If a rampant Ma'a Nonu gets a shot, they will be in just as much trouble.

The All Blacks fell into a hole in the second half and, in particular, it is difficult to work out what the war-torn Ali Williams is still doing in the test side when younger firebrands such as Luke Romano and Jarrad Hoeata are itching to get test careers underway.

Williams isn't needed in this series and sadly his race is almost run because leg injuries have deleted his significant X-factor. No replacement stood out on Saturday night though.

Even those of us who still support Piri Weepu would admit he was a lemon in the second half. Weepu needs to start tests to find his game, but Aaron Smith will be hard to dislodge.

The sun may be setting on Ali, but not so the other Williams, whose best is yet to come. Ireland did a good job of snuffing out the offloading danger he presents, partly because his new All Black coaches didn't do anything subtle or creative around him. No doubt they concentrated heavily on the basics for the first test.

But Ireland won't be able to hold SBW for much longer. If Sonny Bill gets his best game out, and the All Black bench pulls its weight instead of fluffing about as in Auckland, then 60 points is well within reach.

Perhaps a difference between the All Blacks and the other major teams over history is that they are more ruthless for the kill. Right now, Richie McCaw's troops smell blood.

by Sin é Mon 11 Jun 2012 - 23:56

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Come on, surely ROG will NOT be starting any of the games. That would be it for me.

Have some mercy for Sexton, 2 more hammerings isn't going to be great for his confidence.

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 11 Jun 2012 - 23:59

The hammerings will be a lot worse with O'Gara on the field.

by blackcanelion Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 3:17

sin e. Just pointing out that Chris Rattue has all the credibility of Stephen Jones of Times fame. I.e. none.

As a AB's fan I always want a win well. However, Ireland are always 1 game away from a win. Additionally, there's a reasonable chance the game this weekend could be cold and wet.

by Taylorman Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 3:52

I do agree with the SBW comments though. I think his work rate was excellent despite not cracking the glassware a lot and that he'll reflect on his lines and hitups with some variations this week.

Theres enough there to suggest the Irish will look to cover the threat out wide more perhaps leaving SBW a few more inches of real estate to play with. This week its about where the threats will come from rather than when...

by clivemcl Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 8:32

The u20s match is on TG4 today. Does anyone know if the stream from their website will be available in the North? I now with RTE some programmes are all ireland, and some are just the south.

by **rodders** Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 8:44

I think it is clive...

by Mickado Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 8:56

Sin é wrote:http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=10812123

Hapless Irish ripe for crushing
By Chris Rattue
5:30 AM Monday Jun 11, 2012

The Irish are in for one helluva hiding in the second test, and heaven help them in the third.

The forlorn hope a few of us old romantics had of an epic contest unfolding in this historic three-game series was laid to rest in the first half of the opening test at Eden Park.

The Irish, battered and bruised after a long and unsuccessful season, ended up with more lumps knocked out of their front row and, the fact is, the mob that has ended up in this country isn't good enough to beat the All Blacks anyway.

Ireland had to be in fine fettle, with their spirits high, to test the home side. They needed a feasible game plan to work off. Yes, the TV commentators gushed as Ireland chucked the ball around early on, but a decidedly inferior team playing wild rugby against the All Blacks in this country represents an invitation to disaster.

Those Irish salvos looked more like attempts to have something in the bank to save face with before the inevitable landslide buried them. Which it did.

The concerning aspect for the Irish, and those of us thirsting for a quality museum piece rather than an exhibition, is that the All Blacks didn't win going away. They triumphed by a whopping 32 points despite stalling for much of the second half for no particular reason - and certainly not one involving anything memorable from Ireland.

They won't stall again.

Trench warfare, slowing the game down and kicking with brains - those had to be the battle cries if the Irish were serious about this assignment. Only a tough-nut forward pack and halves prepared to play clever percentages would get close to getting this job done. In other words, they needed to play like England did in 2003.

Had Ireland brought over their very best pack, and not suffered a weird list of injuries to their props after arriving here, they may have had a chance ... of creating a contest. Maybe.

But they haven't and are in danger now of sending out a front row ripe to be crushed into the ground in Christchurch and Hamilton.

In the sort of form Daniel Carter has already shown, and with Sonny Bill Williams yet to unleash his big guns, you can only fear for the Irish. If a rampant Ma'a Nonu gets a shot, they will be in just as much trouble.

The All Blacks fell into a hole in the second half and, in particular, it is difficult to work out what the war-torn Ali Williams is still doing in the test side when younger firebrands such as Luke Romano and Jarrad Hoeata are itching to get test careers underway.

Williams isn't needed in this series and sadly his race is almost run because leg injuries have deleted his significant X-factor. No replacement stood out on Saturday night though.

Even those of us who still support Piri Weepu would admit he was a lemon in the second half. Weepu needs to start tests to find his game, but Aaron Smith will be hard to dislodge.

The sun may be setting on Ali, but not so the other Williams, whose best is yet to come. Ireland did a good job of snuffing out the offloading danger he presents, partly because his new All Black coaches didn't do anything subtle or creative around him. No doubt they concentrated heavily on the basics for the first test.

But Ireland won't be able to hold SBW for much longer. If Sonny Bill gets his best game out, and the All Black bench pulls its weight instead of fluffing about as in Auckland, then 60 points is well within reach.

Perhaps a difference between the All Blacks and the other major teams over history is that they are more ruthless for the kill. Right now, Richie McCaw's troops smell blood.

You know nothing about rugby do you mate. Chirs Rattue! Laugh

Here's a stat you'll enjoy Sin, ROG hasn't scored a single point for Ireland this year despite playing in 6 tests!!!!

by **rodders** Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 8:59

1 Wilkinson
2 Best
3 Buckley
4 Ryan
5 O'Callaghan
6 McLaughlin
7 O'Brien
8 Heaslip
9 Reddan
10 Sexton
11 Zebo
12 D'arcy
13 O'Driscoll
14 Trimble
15 Kearney

Bench: Loughney, Cronin, Touhy, O'Mahoney, Marshall, McFadden, Duffy

Believe Leprechaun

by Pete330v2 Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 9:02

I know it'll not be a popular comment but I do agree with most of what Chris Rattue is saying. We're on a hiding to nothing in this series as the All Blacks are only going to get better. Unless this Irish side can pull an utterly epic performance out of Declan Kidney's magic hat then it's going to painful to watch. There is still plenty of hope as we all know the side can play far better rugby but will they be given the tools with which to do it? Will players be played out of position again? Will existing working partnerships be preferred instead of the tried and tested failed ones?

by **rodders** Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 9:14

Chris Rattue is right to a point, we won't beat the ABs or even keep the scoreline tight by throwing 50:50 offloads....however we won't beat them kicking the ball away either.

We need to tighten things up, go through the phases and not give them so much dangerous counterattacking ball, which they thrive off.

The ABs actually aren't that creative and we were pretty effective at turning them over when they were attacking our structured defence....the problem is when they turn the ball over in broken play then they are unstoppable on the counter.

They'll just kick long and let us run back, and then if then turn us over they'll score up the other end ad finitem.

Somehow we need to starve them of posession, slow things down, use the maul and pick and go... vary the game using our ball carriers.... then go wide only when we have an overlap. If we kick it has to be with pin point accuracy...

Kicking down the throat of their back 3 will kill us...as will kicking into touch if we don't challenge their lineout throws.

by **Notch** Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 9:25

rodders wrote:The ABs actually aren't that creative and we were pretty effective at turning them over when they were attacking our structured defence....the problem is when they turn the ball over in broken play then they are unstoppable on the counter.

They'll just kick long and let us run back, and then if then turn us over they'll score up the other end ad finitem.

Somehow we need to starve them of posession, slow things down, use the maul and pick and go... vary the game using our ball carriers.... then go wide only when we have an overlap. If we kick it has to be with pin point accuracy...

Kicking down the throat of their back 3 will kill us...as will kicking into touch if we don't challenge their lineout throws.

I agree with your analysis rodders. Thing is, that was the ABs first test after only a few days training together. I fully expect their midfield to become more prominent in creating chances and their ball retention to improve too as the series goes on. I think Rattue is correct in saying Sonny Bill Williams will come to the fore more and the rest of the backline will start running dangerous support lines around him. Whoever said we'll need to look at our defence in the wider channels and that might leave space in the centres is right as well. I don't often agree with the wind-up merchant Rattue, but there's no denying we need big improvements to avoid some painful scorelines. Because I really do believe this All Blacks team will be better next week and even better the week after.

by **rodders** Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 9:32

Absolutely Notch, they'll be stung by us shading that breakdown battle too....expect a ferocious response there and a huge game from Mr McCaw....

We need to come up with something totally different to throw them off guard because they will put 60 - 70 points on us if we play the same way.

For me Reddan has to come in at 9... Murray's kicking and descision making cost us two tries. Maybe McLaughlin or Henry to come in to help SOB at the breakdown and free him up to carry more.

Trimble for his extra physicality on the wing. D'arcy or Cave into the centre.

That's about the only cards we can play.

by BoyneRFC Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 10:03

Here's a stat you'll enjoy Sin, ROG hasn't scored a single point for Ireland this year despite playing in 6 tests!!!!

No doubt Pat Shortt (aka Sin) has some hyperbole to counter that.

by asoreleftshoulder Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 10:28

Sin é wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Sin é wrote:

And yes, I think it would be a bad thing - very disrespectful to the other players to have a total novice who isn't trusted to place kick for his Province. Why should Kidney back him when Schmidt doesn't.

No more disrespectful than dropping your HC winning SH who had played well in a win against Australia for a novice SH with only 8 starts in provincial rugby for the WC quarter final.

Reddan can blame that one on Sexton's lack of accuracy off the tee
btw, (ROG & Murray did fine against the USA and they were dropped for Sexton & Reddan which I'm sure they felt hard done by).

(And for the record, Ireland didnt score any points in the 25 mins that Sexton & Reddan were on the pitch against Wales in the world cup).

That's besides the point,bringing Madigan on for an end of year match is still no more disrespectful than putting a rookie SH in for the WC quarter final.Just so we're clear I don't think either situation is disrespectful but they are similar.

by Sin é Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 10:31

Mickado wrote:
Sin é wrote:http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=10812123

Hapless Irish ripe for crushing
By Chris Rattue
5:30 AM Monday Jun 11, 2012

The Irish are in for one helluva hiding in the second test, and heaven help them in the third.

The forlorn hope a few of us old romantics had of an epic contest unfolding in this historic three-game series was laid to rest in the first half of the opening test at Eden Park.

The Irish, battered and bruised after a long and unsuccessful season, ended up with more lumps knocked out of their front row and, the fact is, the mob that has ended up in this country isn't good enough to beat the All Blacks anyway.

Ireland had to be in fine fettle, with their spirits high, to test the home side. They needed a feasible game plan to work off. Yes, the TV commentators gushed as Ireland chucked the ball around early on, but a decidedly inferior team playing wild rugby against the All Blacks in this country represents an invitation to disaster.

Those Irish salvos looked more like attempts to have something in the bank to save face with before the inevitable landslide buried them. Which it did.

The concerning aspect for the Irish, and those of us thirsting for a quality museum piece rather than an exhibition, is that the All Blacks didn't win going away. They triumphed by a whopping 32 points despite stalling for much of the second half for no particular reason - and certainly not one involving anything memorable from Ireland.

They won't stall again.

Trench warfare, slowing the game down and kicking with brains - those had to be the battle cries if the Irish were serious about this assignment. Only a tough-nut forward pack and halves prepared to play clever percentages would get close to getting this job done. In other words, they needed to play like England did in 2003.

Had Ireland brought over their very best pack, and not suffered a weird list of injuries to their props after arriving here, they may have had a chance ... of creating a contest. Maybe.

But they haven't and are in danger now of sending out a front row ripe to be crushed into the ground in Christchurch and Hamilton.

In the sort of form Daniel Carter has already shown, and with Sonny Bill Williams yet to unleash his big guns, you can only fear for the Irish. If a rampant Ma'a Nonu gets a shot, they will be in just as much trouble.

The All Blacks fell into a hole in the second half and, in particular, it is difficult to work out what the war-torn Ali Williams is still doing in the test side when younger firebrands such as Luke Romano and Jarrad Hoeata are itching to get test careers underway.

Williams isn't needed in this series and sadly his race is almost run because leg injuries have deleted his significant X-factor. No replacement stood out on Saturday night though.

Even those of us who still support Piri Weepu would admit he was a lemon in the second half. Weepu needs to start tests to find his game, but Aaron Smith will be hard to dislodge.

The sun may be setting on Ali, but not so the other Williams, whose best is yet to come. Ireland did a good job of snuffing out the offloading danger he presents, partly because his new All Black coaches didn't do anything subtle or creative around him. No doubt they concentrated heavily on the basics for the first test.

But Ireland won't be able to hold SBW for much longer. If Sonny Bill gets his best game out, and the All Black bench pulls its weight instead of fluffing about as in Auckland, then 60 points is well within reach.

Perhaps a difference between the All Blacks and the other major teams over history is that they are more ruthless for the kill. Right now, Richie McCaw's troops smell blood.

You know nothing about rugby do you mate. Chirs Rattue!

Here's a stat you'll enjoy Sin, ROG hasn't scored a single point for Ireland this year despite playing in 6 tests!!!!

Pet, quoting a newspaper article doesn't indicate what anyone knows about rugby. Dismissing it entirely just shows you are a bit insecure in your own knowledge.

Here's another stat for you -

Last 6 international starts: Sexton scored 61pts in total. O'Gara's last six international starts: 77pts. Wink

Sexton even got to play the full 80 mins and continued to take the kicks when O'Gara was on the pitch.

Sexton's average per game = 10pts. O'Gara's average per game = 13pts

by BoyneRFC Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 10:34

ROG & Murray did fine against the USA

Whoopdy doo...

by **rodders** Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 10:36

Sin é wrote:Here's another stat for you -

Last 6 international starts: Sexton scored 61pts in total. O'Gara's last six international starts: 77pts.
Sexton even got to play the full 80 mins and continued to take the kicks when O'Gara was on the pitch.

Sexton's average per game = 10pts. O'Gara's average per game = 13pts

Well there we have it, clear as day...if we had of started O'Gara we would have lost by 29 points rather than 32...... laughing

by disneychilly Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 10:36

The breakdown was a funny old thing. Ireland shaded it but still whatever ball NZ got was very quick. Credit must be given to Aaron Smith for this-we haven't had someone passing the ball like that at 9 for a long, long time. Just wondering how worried some other teams are that Carter is getting evern more time on the ball. Look at Smith before Savea's second try-you can see him go to leave the ball for the forwards, then look left and snap at them to present it-he then whips it out to Dagg and she's all over. Class. I'd say with the extra focus on the breakdown from NZ this week Ireland will have to step it up again-they did bloody well there though.

Trimble's physicality won't mean stuff all unless he gets a platform.

Very surprised Ireland didn't attack the lineout given it's history as a problem for NZ. Plus they didn't go to the air anywhere near as much as I thought. Maybe Savea's first try made them reluctant. It was a crap kick but back yourself to put it on the spot next time. After all Guildford DID drop it.

SBW created a lot of space on Sat. He just needs to be aware that he is doing so and attracting more defenders-that way his ball security will be better. Though Ireland could overcompensate and let him have a field day up the middle. Carter was taking it to the line but not running-he didn't have to. That's another huge threat there NZ didn't tap into.

As long as NZ establish a platform and don't be too adventurous early on. The Irish are still a good side-good enough to hurt us if we don't concentrate. Can't pick between the margin being halved or a 50 point bollocking.

by LeinsterFan4life Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 10:38

Sin do you think o'gara is better than sexton?

by Sin é Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 10:38

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Sin é wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Sin é wrote:

And yes, I think it would be a bad thing - very disrespectful to the other players to have a total novice who isn't trusted to place kick for his Province. Why should Kidney back him when Schmidt doesn't.

No more disrespectful than dropping your HC winning SH who had played well in a win against Australia for a novice SH with only 8 starts in provincial rugby for the WC quarter final.

Reddan can blame that one on Sexton's lack of accuracy off the tee
btw, (ROG & Murray did fine against the USA and they were dropped for Sexton & Reddan which I'm sure they felt hard done by).

(And for the record, Ireland didnt score any points in the 25 mins that Sexton & Reddan were on the pitch against Wales in the world cup).

That's besides the point,bringing Madigan on for an end of year match is still no more disrespectful than putting a rookie SH in for the WC quarter final.Just so we're clear I don't think either situation is disrespectful but they are similar.

It was Murray's 6th international cap (with 2 starts in the world cup including a big win over Italy who Ireland nearly lost to in the previous 6Ns).

Why in the name of god would you bring him if you had no intention of using him. And you wouldn't want to throw him in against ABs. Just look at the stick Zebo is getting!

by Mickado Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 10:39

O'Gara's last 6 starts have come against France (lost), England (lost) Wales x2 (lost x 2), Italy (WON!) and Russia (WON!).

We'll give him a shout if the Italians or Russians are troubling us...

by asoreleftshoulder Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 10:40

Sin é wrote:
Pet, quoting a newspaper article doesn't indicate what anyone knows about rugby. Dismissing it entirely just shows you are a bit insecure in your own knowledge.

Here's another stat for you -

Last 6 international starts: Sexton scored 61pts in total. O'Gara's last six international starts: 77pts.
Sexton even got to play the full 80 mins and continued to take the kicks when O'Gara was on the pitch.

Sexton's average per game = 10pts. O'Gara's average per game = 13pts

Well done Sin you've started another Sexton v Rog argument,you must feel all warm and fuzzy.

by Sin é Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 10:41

rodders wrote:
Sin é wrote:Here's another stat for you -

Last 6 international starts: Sexton scored 61pts in total. O'Gara's last six international starts: 77pts.
Sexton even got to play the full 80 mins and continued to take the kicks when O'Gara was on the pitch.

Sexton's average per game = 10pts. O'Gara's average per game = 13pts

Well there we have it, clear as day...if we had of started O'Gara we would have lost by 29 points rather than 32......

Yep, Sexton isn't as great as some would like to suggest.

by Mickado Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 10:42

Sin, always ruining threads with ROG v Sexton crap. Give it up mate, you’re flogging a dead horse…

by Sin é Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 10:43

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Pet, quoting a newspaper article doesn't indicate what anyone knows about rugby. Dismissing it entirely just shows you are a bit insecure in your own knowledge.

Here's another stat for you -

Last 6 international starts: Sexton scored 61pts in total. O'Gara's last six international starts: 77pts.
Sexton even got to play the full 80 mins and continued to take the kicks when O'Gara was on the pitch.

Sexton's average per game = 10pts. O'Gara's average per game = 13pts

Well done Sin you've started another Sexton v Rog argument,you must feel all warm and fuzzy.

Eh, Boyne pointed out to me that O'Gara had not scored any points in his last 6 international games.
I was just pointing out that he has let Sexton take them all and when he starts, his average is better.

Reprimand Boyne for bringing up the Sexton v O'Gara debate Wink

by Sin é Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 10:45

Mickado wrote:Sin, always ruining threads with ROG v Sexton crap. Give it up mate, you’re flogging a dead horse…

Nope - Boyne brought O'Gara v Sexton up, not me.

by Sin é Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 10:46

Mickado wrote:O'Gara's last 6 starts have come against France (lost), England (lost) Wales x2 (lost x 2), Italy (WON!) and Russia (WON!).

We'll give him a shout if the Italians or Russians are troubling us...

You'll need to ask Boyne what point he was trying to make. (I presume he was on about kicking stats).

by Mickado Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 10:46

Sin é wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Pet, quoting a newspaper article doesn't indicate what anyone knows about rugby. Dismissing it entirely just shows you are a bit insecure in your own knowledge.

Here's another stat for you -

Last 6 international starts: Sexton scored 61pts in total. O'Gara's last six international starts: 77pts.
Sexton even got to play the full 80 mins and continued to take the kicks when O'Gara was on the pitch.

Sexton's average per game = 10pts. O'Gara's average per game = 13pts

Well done Sin you've started another Sexton v Rog argument,you must feel all warm and fuzzy.

Eh, Boyne pointed out to me that O'Gara had not scored any points in his last 6 international games.
I was just pointing out that he has let Sexton take them all and when he starts, his average is better.

Reprimand Boyne for bringing up the Sexton v O'Gara debate

Sexton starts against New Zealand, ROG starts against Russia. But other than that, perfect use of statistics. Pet. Wink

by Taylorman Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 10:48

Looking at the 7 or 8 Irishmen that didnt train today lools like they've been hit pretty hard.
Other than vito looks like the same team will take the field..

The first match was about finding the baseline for this new side where the next two will be about exploring opportunities. Agree fully with SBW. I think he'll either be too much to handle or he will decoy so much that the outside will be a desert for the daggs and all.

Unfortunately with the way this side has hit the ground running its a huge ask for this depleted Irish side to get up...

by Taylorman Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 10:48

Looking at the 7 or 8 Irishmen that didnt train today lools like they've been hit pretty hard.
Other than vito looks like the same team will take the field..

The first match was about finding the baseline for this new side where the next two will be about exploring opportunities. Agree fully with SBW. I think he'll either be too much to handle or he will decoy so much that the outside will be a desert for the daggs and all.

Unfortunately with the way this side has hit the ground running its a huge ask for this depleted Irish side to get up...

by asoreleftshoulder Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 10:48

Sin é wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Pet, quoting a newspaper article doesn't indicate what anyone knows about rugby. Dismissing it entirely just shows you are a bit insecure in your own knowledge.

Here's another stat for you -

Last 6 international starts: Sexton scored 61pts in total. O'Gara's last six international starts: 77pts.
Sexton even got to play the full 80 mins and continued to take the kicks when O'Gara was on the pitch.

Sexton's average per game = 10pts. O'Gara's average per game = 13pts

Well done Sin you've started another Sexton v Rog argument,you must feel all warm and fuzzy.

Eh, Boyne pointed out to me that O'Gara had not scored any points in his last 6 international games.
I was just pointing out that he has let Sexton take them all and when he starts, his average is better.

Reprimand Boyne for bringing up the Sexton v O'Gara debate

You've been having little quips at Sexton since yesterday,you are obviously trying to distract from the Madigan debate as you weren't able to win it.

I will take your advice though Boyne and Leinsterfan4life please don't bring this up again it's what Sin wants and ruins countless threads,I know it's easier said than done as I've fallen into the trap myself but it's a waste of time.

by LeinsterFan4life Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 10:49

Id rather have noel reid starting ahead of o'gara thats how bad he has gone

by LeinsterFan4life Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 10:51

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Sin é wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Pet, quoting a newspaper article doesn't indicate what anyone knows about rugby. Dismissing it entirely just shows you are a bit insecure in your own knowledge.

Here's another stat for you -

Last 6 international starts: Sexton scored 61pts in total. O'Gara's last six international starts: 77pts.
Sexton even got to play the full 80 mins and continued to take the kicks when O'Gara was on the pitch.

Sexton's average per game = 10pts. O'Gara's average per game = 13pts

Well done Sin you've started another Sexton v Rog argument,you must feel all warm and fuzzy.

Eh, Boyne pointed out to me that O'Gara had not scored any points in his last 6 international games.
I was just pointing out that he has let Sexton take them all and when he starts, his average is better.

Reprimand Boyne for bringing up the Sexton v O'Gara debate

You've been having little quips at Sexton since yesterday,you are obviously trying to distract from the Madigan debate as you weren't able to win it.

I will take your advice though Boyne and Leinsterfan4life please don't bring this up again it's what Sin wants and ruins countless threads,I know it's easier said than done as I've fallen into the trap myself but it's a waste of time.

I know and im sorry but do you ever see something so stupid that you cant help it you have to respond

by Pete330v2 Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 10:51

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Id rather have noel reid starting ahead of o'gara thats how bad he has gone

I'd prefer Noel Fielding myself Very Happy

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 10:55

Sin.

I'm not going into any more than that but you obviously have very little in terms of a grasp on how rugby is played. That's it. Nothing more to say to you.

My team would be:

Healy-Best-Ross
Ryan-Tuohy
POM-Heaslip-SOB
Reddan-Sexton
McFadden-BOD
Zebo-Kearney-Trimble

Cronin-Wilkinson-Fitzpatrick-McLaughlin-Murray-ROG-Duffy

A few points on that team:

1) McFadden in at 12. I think his defence isn't as bad as people are making it out to be and with Duffy on the bench we need wing cover. Has an understanding with players in and outside of him also and is in his best (not preffered) position.

2) POM retained but needs a big game. IMO he wasn't great at the weekend.

3) Reddan in as with the size of our backs they can not rely on strength to attack the AB's they must rely on speed and to use speed you need the attacking tempo higher. Murray hasn't provided the tempo we need all season so Reddan gets the nod.

4) 2 props on the bench. McL can cover 2nd and backrow and with the way our props are currently I think we may need this cover. Also I fancy our scrum even when Fitzpatrick comes on so wouldn't want it to go to uncontested scrums.

5) Duffy has to play 22 to cover 15.

by Sin é Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 10:59

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Sin é wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Pet, quoting a newspaper article doesn't indicate what anyone knows about rugby. Dismissing it entirely just shows you are a bit insecure in your own knowledge.

Here's another stat for you -

Last 6 international starts: Sexton scored 61pts in total. O'Gara's last six international starts: 77pts.
Sexton even got to play the full 80 mins and continued to take the kicks when O'Gara was on the pitch.

Sexton's average per game = 10pts. O'Gara's average per game = 13pts

Well done Sin you've started another Sexton v Rog argument,you must feel all warm and fuzzy.

Eh, Boyne pointed out to me that O'Gara had not scored any points in his last 6 international games.
I was just pointing out that he has let Sexton take them all and when he starts, his average is better.

Reprimand Boyne for bringing up the Sexton v O'Gara debate

You've been having little quips at Sexton since yesterday,you are obviously trying to distract from the Madigan debate as you weren't able to win it.

I will take your advice though Boyne and Leinsterfan4life please don't bring this up again it's what Sin wants and ruins countless threads,I know it's easier said than done as I've fallen into the trap myself but it's a waste of time.

Seems you are all far too sensitive about anyone saying anything other than Sexton is the bestest thing since the slice pan.

I think ROG should have been left at home for this tour (his wife is due to give birth any minute), but I don't think its wise to have Madigan making his international debut against the ABs as there seems to be some question marks about his game at club level (mainly his coach doesn't trust him for the big ones and even though he can kick, he doesn't).

by chewed_mintie Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 11:00

Wow...you Irish fellas need to lighten up a bit and stop being so pessimistic!

Look, you’ve got the nucleus of the greatest squad in Europe. That is a good, solid base to build from if ever there was. Ok, your coach isn’t the greatest but there is talent with the players you have and they should be able to perform.

There is one thing which seperates NZ from every other nation which plays rugby; the ability to not only maintain a higher average intensity than all their rivals over 80 mins but also they are able to ramp up that intensity to even greater levels when required. NZ can often win games and be out of sight in a 20 min window – Julian Savea scored a hattrick last week in 18 mins to illustrate the point.

It comes down to something very simple – it’s an 80 minute game. This is probably why over 110 years of test rugby, NZ has only ever been beaten by a margin of 20+ once (21 – v Australia 1999 28-7).

You keep up your intensity and you are going to have more than a chance at the end aren’t you?

Keep the faith fellas, one thing is for sure if/when the monkey is finally off your backs we know it will have been a magnificent game of rugby, certainly I think it’ll be a “where were you when” moment....it’ll come, you just need that intensity!

by Mickado Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 11:02

I like the idea of two props on the bench Pete, Healy, Ross and Fitz all carrying knocks.

I wouldn't mind that team but I think POM should be dropped after a performance like that.

by SecretFly Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 11:08

I see we're all still playing the "is he right or wrong?" game as regards Ireland inc. That is to say, is player 1 wrong and is player 2 right?

After Kidney's interview I can't see any reasons for changing my opinion that the question is the right one but the players aren't the problem. We're letting the fish off the hook when we try to solve the Irish problem by constantly naming players who might give us the fantasy turn around. These coaches (all of them) have had their moment and the moment is over. They offer nothing except...well, at this stage lame excuses.

Winning was seldom an option but performances were. These games are marketed by New Zealanders as an insignificant series against a very ordinary side in Ireland with phoned-in performances from the All Blacks all that is required.

The truth is different. The All Blacks are and always have been intent on humiliating the Irish. That's why it's right to say yes, they will not have been happy with the result last time. They'll look for a bigger margin next time and a bigger one following that and they don't care about Ireland's competitiveness sinking more as important players get injured. They don't care about us but they DO care about this series. It is a very important one because they need to psychologically destroy Irish aspirations of a win against them in the next five years or even the next decade. They want to keep the aura against us. And why? No, not because they fear Ireland but because if Ireland are seen to be competitive against them or indeed if Ireland could swing one performance into a victory, then the All Black aura takes a knocking and better sides than Ireland look on with a smile on their faces - added to the tough final against France, the ABs don't want to contemplate a corrosion of their aura. So they intend to whip Ireland as heavily as they can. And the Irish coaches don't have a blessed weapon or idea at their disposal to prevent it.

Kidney even goes back to the idea of needing time to 'create' a team, and knowing how difficult that is from experience; and the implication is "don't get on my back, I'm working here":

Kidney: "I know everybody expects success, but I've been involved in making teams before and it just doesn't happen overnight.

"It takes a while to build up that experience and that is why we're better off playing another two Test matches. If it looks daunting and if fellas don't fancy it, they need to go home, but I don't see anyone doing that."

"The thing that would keep me going is that I have been in this long enough to have seen this before. I know what it takes to bring a team around."

Grand, but last time the philosophy of Kidney was unearthed he was busy talking of creating squads rather than teams. He was talking about having people ready to slot into the holes left by the mainstream players. Now it's the white flag and back to talking about creating a team. So we're waiting for Murray to become a genius and for Sexton to play more like O'Gara. We're waiting for players to mature into their roles and other players on the sidelines won't be getting any free tickets to the party in the meantime because what's there has to be aged in the oak caskets and then we'll reap the rewards in four or five years time. Great plan there.... great plan. Maybe by year four or five there might also be a realistic gameplan attached to the fine wine players to make it all Rosé.

Maybe I want to wait that long, maybe I don't.

by asoreleftshoulder Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 11:10

Sin é wrote:
Seems you are all far too sensitive about anyone saying anything other than Sexton is the bestest thing since the slice pan.

I think ROG should have been left at home for this tour (his wife is due to give birth any minute), but I don't think its wise to have Madigan making his international debut against the ABs as there seems to be some question marks about his game at club level (mainly his coach doesn't trust him for the big ones and even though he can kick, he doesn't).

That would be a reasonable point if you weren't just as sensitive to criticism of any Munster player.

Anyway that last point is a reasonable one about not taking Madigan,I don't agree with it but I can see where your coming from.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 11:34

Mickado wrote:I like the idea of two props on the bench Pete, Healy, Ross and Fitz all carrying knocks.

I wouldn't mind that team but I think POM should be dropped after a performance like that.

I don't think he played well either but I think players like him should be given a change to make amends. I think he is pretty good, but would say that he was somewhat at fault for two of their tries, I am fairly sure he will get the bit between the teeth this weekend. If not then definitely McL for 3rd test.

I thought the scrum along with the breakdown was one of the few aspects of the game that we could actually use as a weapon (fair play front five great showing). I don't want it going uncontested again. The other point is with Healy and Ross in a bad way, I wouldn't want there to be 2 out of our 15 players falling to bits by 55minutes and only have 1 player on the bench who can come on (Loughney as he is the only one who can cover both sides).

Finally Loughney is probably the worst player in the squad and it was noticeable when he came on that the scrum got worse. I'd prefer Wilkinson and Fitzpatrick to come on and lend fresh impetus in this area.

by Sin é Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 11:41

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Seems you are all far too sensitive about anyone saying anything other than Sexton is the bestest thing since the slice pan.

I think ROG should have been left at home for this tour (his wife is due to give birth any minute), but I don't think its wise to have Madigan making his international debut against the ABs as there seems to be some question marks about his game at club level (mainly his coach doesn't trust him for the big ones and even though he can kick, he doesn't).

That would be a reasonable point if you weren't just as sensitive to criticism of any Munster player.

Anyway that last point is a reasonable one about not taking Madigan,I don't agree with it but I can see where your coming from.

I'm not sensitive to balanced criticism - its mostly cheap potshots (you don't have to look very far up this thread to come across them) with not even an attempt at a rationale to back them up.

It should also be noted it has to be pointed out that I don't start the potshots (I'll respond though) which is usually responded of a chorus of 'you started the sexton v rog debate' - presumably that is the only retort that can be managed.

I think I mentioned Reddan & Sexton had started a game together (from a point of view of what you see as a favourite combination) and then I get accused of starting an O'Gara v Sexton debate!

by The Great Aukster Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 11:47

How can anyone think it would be a good idea to have two props on the bench!?

Ireland have a decent LH in Healy who is injured, and a passable TH in Ross who is also injured. Even with them fit Ireland aren't going to steamroller the ABs into penalty tries or wins against the head. They're not fit and the next best on tour - Declan Fitzpatrick is also injured and not match fit. Wilkinson and/or Loughney don't look anywhere near Test class.
With no numerical penalty in Tests, Ireland's strategy should be to go to uncontested scrums ASAP rather than maximise a weakness for the ABs to exploit.

The only possible logic in having two props on the bench would be if Kidney got his props to try to con the referee into constantly reset scrums for 80 minutes and so restrict the ABs to say a dozen penalties in the first half and maybe three or four penalty tries in the second!

by asoreleftshoulder Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 11:55

Sin é wrote:
I'm not sensitive to balanced criticism - its mostly cheap potshots (you don't have to look very far up this thread to come across them) with not even an attempt at a rationale to back them up.

It should also be noted it has to be pointed out that I don't start the potshots (I'll respond though) which is usually responded of a chorus of 'you started the sexton v rog debate' - presumably that is the only retort that can be managed.

I think I mentioned Reddan & Sexton had started a game together (from a point of view of what you see as a favourite combination) and then I get accused of starting an O'Gara v Sexton debate!

"Maybe Sexton didn't want Madigan cramping his style on this tour Wink "
"Sexton got about 200 pts and we all still hold our breaths to see if he is on target. "
"Reddan can blame that one on Sexton's lack of accuracy off the tee Wink "

3 quotes from you having a dig at Sexton before anyone mentioned RoG,you just keep trying to bait people into the same old argument again and again.

by Taylorman Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 11:55

Gee secretfly great to see you know so much about NZ rugby and how it views the Irish tour. Funny...I never saw it like that. I saw it as an opportunity to see in a new coach and a few new players knowing that based on several irish winter tours here where the matches were often close that we could lose one.

But it seems since our convincing win we are a cynical lot, dismissive of any irish attempt to beat us so we can look good.

Funny i didnt see it that way...but each to his own..

by kiakahaaotearoa Tue 12 Jun 2012 - 12:01

That's an insightful post SecretFly. The exclusive club to have beaten the the ABs is 5 strong. 4 strong if you count the professional era. We don't want to enlarge that group with gatecrashers. We want to keep that club exclusive with AB bouncers on the door turning away people with trainers or people they don't like the look of. But if they were allowed entry into that club, people would realise it's just yourn typical club with the same commercial music to keep the girls happy and still the alcohol soaked desperation at 5am with guys trying to score but everyone already partnered up. If more people gained access to that club, they'd realise it's all image and little substance.

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