Ulster Vs Cardiff Blues Friday 28th September k/o 7.05

First topic message reminder :

From an Ulster point of view, we may not get much chat on this one, thats fine and understandable. For those on both sides who want to discuss the game ahead, I feel they should be welcomed to do so.

Ulster are (understandably) taking a little longer to announce a squad for this one. I wonder if anyone has any info on whether there was training as per usual?

I imagine that the new guys and the older more experienced guys will play. Perhaps a few younger guys might be advised to sit it out for another week. I think all in all, there's a fairly Northern Irish attitude to get on with things. I think we will see a strong Ulster side. And I expect they will play well.

I want Cardiff fans to talk freely on here. You should be targeting a win (same as always), and not worrying about our team. I believe once the selected players hear that whistle, it will be business as usual.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:Rory if Cave is with Ireland or unavailable through injury or being rested I would like to see.

11- Gilroy
13- Bowe
14- Trimble

That way we wouldn't be leaving out any of Gilroy, Bowe and Trimble. Payne would be a great option at 13 but I would go with Bowe as moving Payne to 13 leaves us looking weaker in the back 3.

Dodger agree with you here but if Cave is away on Irish duty you can almost assume Bowe is too and most likely one of Trimble and Gilroy.

Is 12 your weakest position in the backs? If so it is still very strong with Wallace-Marshall-Cave all available.

I have been HUGELY impressed with Allen too, hope he is ok

.Hugely impressed is right Pete, the lad has stepped seamlessly into the senior side like he's been there for some time and has impressed on the wing as well as his favoured centre position

Of course of course.......Payne at 13 and D'Arcy at 15 might be the option then when Ireland players are away.

We are going to look very bare when the irish tests come around. I think only one of Trimble or Gilroy will be selected though, not both.

I think we are weakest at 13 at the minute, Pete. At 12 I think we are looking very good and there will be some battle between Wallace and Marshall. I hope Marshall can win the shirt off Wallace, although it is hard to forget that Wallace had a fantastic season last year.

When Farrell returns we will be even stronger at 12. I think he is going to end up adjusting to 13 actually.

9) Pienaar
10) Jackson
11) Gilroy/Trimble
12) Wallace/Marshall
13) Payne
14) Allen
15) D'Arcy/Nelson

I guess that is roughly what our backs would look like during the Ireland internationals?

Pete after watching Marshall in the first few games and then Paddy Wallace's performance last night we are fairly strong at 12. I'm hoping that Allen isn't too badly injured as that would leave us weak at 13.

Pete (Scotty) Jared Payne is different class. Exudes so much confidence in what he does. Just like Pienaar. He's our Isa I would say.

Rava you just know Jared is going to do something when he catches that ball and surveys the pitch quickly and glides angles that don't exist for anyone else. IMO he's even better at 13 as he was for the Blues, he was the outstanding 13 in NZ at one stage. I'm not surprised the Kiwis were a little sorry to let him go. He'll walk onto the Irish setup when he qualifies and if he doesn't I'll eat the IRFU and sh*t them out

Rava totally agree he is like Isa for us. He and Williams have become the focal points in attack.

As good as Terblanche was for us he tended to kick a lot (usually exceptionally) whereas Payne, like Isa is always looking to counterattack and offload. The way the rest of the side have adapted to this is really exciting.

Chris Henry had an excellent game last night too, linked well and for me outplayed Warburton on the deck. Paddy Jackson and Wallace impressed too.

Another thing last night was the tactical awareness. Jamie Roberts made a few line breaks in the first half but in the second Trimble was defending the 10 channel off first phase and put a thumping tackle in at one point.

Very happy with the way things are going under Anscombe and the impact the new signings, especially Williams have made.

SUFTUM.

Yeah Paddy looked quite good last night too and I think Marshall has been pretty good as well although definitely has a lot to learn.

I think you guys are pretty strong at 13 to be honest

Cave-Allen-Bowe-Payne-Farrell

I think you are set there although it does look like there will be more Ulstermen in the Irish set up.

Speaking of Ulster lads in the Irish set up.....IAN HENDERSON. With Tuohy, Stevenson and Henderson you guys have really good IQ locks coming out of your ears.

IMO the most impressive player for Ulster is Henry, Williams gets the plaudits although he is not as effective as any comentator makes out, and Payne totally fluked his try, you know he only means half of what comes off for him.

Henry works so hard in that pack and rarely seems to get the credit, although last night he faced some very average sempro quality players in Trevett, Down, Copeland etc...

How he doesn't have 50 irish caps I do not know

I think Henry is a late bloomer bluesman. He's really come into his own the last two seasons or so since switching to 7. Brilliant player. Not the quickest but just seems to read the game so well.

I thought every single player on the pitch did themselves proud. I have good things to say about every single one of them. I guess the one I am happiest with is Jackson though, he is really starting to grow into the playmaking role at 10. Madigan and Hanrahan are getting bigged up as the next irish 10s, though Jackson is the one starting for his province and playing some great rugby.

Bluesman - that is the thing about Payne though. He seems to always look like he doesn't mean it. Everything he does looks effortless. But he really is just a step ahead of the rest, he has that 6th sense that few players possess.

Speaking of that 6th sense that few players possess - are there any irish players who show that quality coming through the ranks?

Payne's coming through the Irish ranks is he not?.....

Payne amazes me, he seems to take wrong options, that leave you with your head in your hands and when you look up you see that 3 pposing players have slipped and the ball has bounced into his hands and he's in... every time!

rodders wrote:Payne's coming through the Irish ranks is he not?.....

Haha good stuff Rodders!

I agree on the Henry thing in comparisson to Williams. I don't think Henry is worth 50 caps but he is so much more effective than Williams.
I wish Williams would go in to contact with the ball kept safe then if the offload is on, lift the arm etc. It's great when it comes off and as a ball carrier he is very good but he loses a lot of ball too.

Think some of you Ulster fans might appreciate this. I enjoyed putting it together.

Very proud of the lads.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO1KsF7iP30

Henry is great, and played really well last night I agree. I think he was one of the standouts along with Wallace, Cave, Payne, Tuohy and Court. Jackson and Henderson were tremendous as well for two guys who were playing U20s last season. I do feel those two are destined for international caps.

Bluesman- if it works every time, it can't be luck ;-)

That said he has taken a few wrong options this season. He's still feeling his way back from that long-term injury. Once he's back to his best for us, watch out Europe!

It could have all been so different if Cardiff hadn't blown two certain tries in the first half. Firstly Warburtons knock-on, then Tom James just not looking and up and giving it. You have to be clinical; fortunately Ulster were the clinical side last night.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I wish Williams would go in to contact with the ball kept safe then if the offload is on, lift the arm etc. It's great when it comes off and as a ball carrier he is very good but he loses a lot of ball too.

He frustrated me and amazed me in equal measure last night. The great thing about him is he takes so many players out of the equation. He needs triple marking sometimes- two men for the tackle and another to stop the offload! And that might not be enough to stop him either...

He does all the glamorous things, I thought our backrow were tremendous because Henderson and Henry were doing all his graft. They both had excellent games allowing Williams to do his rampaging mountain act which is how he is best utilised. I'm not criticising Williams at all in saying they did his donkey work, thats what you want. Our backrow had great balance last night. The more time Williams spends with the ball in his hands the better it is for us- so long as he remembers to keep two hands on the ball a bit more often... can't afford that many turnovers in contact against better sides.

Nah it was never going to be any different, there are too many semi pro quality players in the Blues side...

Trevett - messy big guy, so must be a prop except he can't scrummage and offers nothing around the park.

Down - One of the worst professional lock I have ever seen, and he's 26 or so!!!

Copeland - Signed from Championship and was a decent champ player not a lot more.

Fillisse - 2 years too old, shouldve retired then!

Kyriacou - Decent enough little player, little being the key word. Way too ineffective as a hooker!

Pretorious - Hasn't played a full season of rugby yet is club captain, 2 seasons ago he was a decent propsect and he's been injured since living of his Henson style reputation.

Lloyd Williams - Living off his surname.

Good job Clive

A word for Gilroy too who looked very sharp when he came on, made one searing break in particular and for Trimbs who wasn't perfect but worked hard all night, put some big hits in and got his name on the scoresheet.

Bowe wasn't brilliant either but showed why he's one of the best finishers in the game. He and Payne are a dream team combo down that right channel.

Actually everyone deserves a mention.

rodders wrote:Good job Clive

A word for Gilroy too who looked very sharp when he came on, made one searing break in particular and for Trimbs who wasn't perfect but worked hard all night, put some big hits in and got his name on the scoresheet.

Bowe wasn't brilliant either but showed why he's one of the best finishers in the game. He and Payne are a dream team combo down that right channel.

Actually everyone deserves a mention.

That is the best part of the game. Every single player can feel proud about their performance.

Team for next week? We'll need to give Ferris, Best and Muller some gametime ahead of Castres most likely. I wonder when Roger Wilson is back?

1. Court
2. Brady
3. Afoa
4. Muller (c)
5. Tuohy
6. Ferris
7. Henry
8. Williams
9. Marshall
10. Jackson
11. Gilroy
12. Wallace
13. Cave
14. Bowe
15. Payne

16. Best 17. Black 18. Fitzpatrick (if fit) 19. Stevenson 20. McComish or Diack (if fit) 21. Heaney 22. L. Marshall 23. Trimble

Not sure if Rory Best will come straight in or not.

Notch wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I wish Williams would go in to contact with the ball kept safe then if the offload is on, lift the arm etc. It's great when it comes off and as a ball carrier he is very good but he loses a lot of ball too.

He frustrated me and amazed me in equal measure last night. The great thing about him is he takes so many players out of the equation. He needs triple marking sometimes- two men for the tackle and another to stop the offload! And that might not be enough to stop him either...

He does all the glamorous things, I thought our backrow were tremendous because Henderson and Henry were doing all his graft. They both had excellent games allowing Williams to do his rampaging mountain act which is how he is best utilised. I'm not criticising Williams at all in saying they did his donkey work, thats what you want. Our backrow had great balance last night. The more time Williams spends with the ball in his hands the better it is for us- so long as he remembers to keep two hands on the ball a bit more often... can't afford that many turnovers in contact against better sides.

That bolded part is really important Notch.
He is creating huge space for others on the field but that can be utilised in less high risk option taking. He can draw 3 guys and have the hand out looking for the support runners which will probably result in a linebreak if he gets the offload off well, if not, it could be a knock on, turnover, rip etc.

All of those negatives are quite likely to happen (as we saw last night)

I'd prefer to see him take the contact and hold on to the ball, suck in those three defenders and then get the ball back quick so Marshall-Jackson can identify where the space is and exploit the 3 guys who have been taken out.

That would be my take on it

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/27244.php

Me too. I definitely agree, that said that was a game for it though; it was a fast and loose game with plenty of line breaks and less impressive defences. I think he knows when he needs to tuck it under his arm.

We ran everything last night. It was a very different strategy to the way we played in our other games. I don't expect to be seeing so much of the one-handed stuff when Castres come to town.

Yeah I think that is true. Aberscome looks like he is really tactically astute. There has been a lot of jumping up and down about Penny (who I think is doing a great job) but Aberscome seems to be seriously clever.

I hope Williams tones down the one handed stuff but continues the runs. If he is through the tackle look for the offload but not before.

Thats what he's been doing so far- it was odd to see him going for the glory pass every time, mind you it was worth at least 7 points to us on balance.

Yeah it was, I suppose it just can't continue against better defences (I don't mean better teams). The way it was worth 7 points (possibly more) last night it could cost you that much in another game.

That being said last night's backrow had a very good balance to it

It could, I'm sure we'll be looking at it.

When Roger Wilson comes back we'll have very good options at 8. The hard graft of him versus the flashy rugby and sheer unstoppability of Williams. Choices all over the pitch! I love it.

More good news for Ulster is that as hard as it is to believe he could get better but Pienaar is just running the game for SA at the moment and just looks sublime. Imagine we even have that kind of class coming back WOW

Yeah he's looking great. S.Africa are looking so good without Morne Steyn.

clivemcl wrote:Think some of you Ulster fans might appreciate this. I enjoyed putting it together.

Very proud of the lads.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO1KsF7iP30

Well done Clive!

Pienaar will probably have to sit on the bench when he comes back! Can't see Anscombe making any exceptions for reputation, he hasn't so far.

He'll only be flying back on the Sunday or Monday of the week we play Castres so he'll only have a few sessions. Think Marshall will start next week and unless he has a shocker he'll start versus Castres.

Pienaar has been just superb for SA today. Kicking not the best though but Jackson isn't doing too bad.

Disagree with Notch. I'd have Pienaar in against Castres if he's fit.

ooh get you Ulster - top of the table with 17 points

I know- just think if we had been able to fulfill our fixture with Zebre we'd have daylight...

Still, hoping Ospreys and Treviso can do us an early favour.

I'm hoping the O's can do themselves a favour as well!

And they did!

Watching it back now - Tony McWhirter is barely able to talk because of the emotion.

Assuming Ulster don't end up like Glasgow last season...would Tommy be the only player in the league to lift the trophy with two different clubs...? OK I'm being premature...

Hey, hey... that talk is banned!

One game at a time, all the way to the end

Just for anyone who didnt see the link when the thread was in full flow yesterday.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO1KsF7iP30

Notch wrote:Hey, hey... that talk is banned!

One game at a time, all the way to the end

Yes Notch...I remember Glasgow last season.

I'll stop now...I was thinking like that during the Six Nations and thought Tommy would get his record, but then Ireland played England...

clivemcl wrote:Just for anyone who didnt see the link when the thread was in full flow yesterday.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO1KsF7iP30

Thanks Clive

Clive, thanks for posting that but sorry I can't stand Mark Sidebottom. Talks as though we are foreigners who don't understand English.

Its strange that despite all the furore over moving back to the CAP I was bit surprised to see the attendance was lower than last season which was again held at the CAP.

Are the fans not responding to the move back?

Bedford - it was probably a combination of Friday night kick off - I had to finish work early to make it there, and not everyone can do that - and the Blues performances recently.

I have to say guys, Williams is getting too much criticism (not that it outweighs the praise). But this is all part of a mindset that plagues irish rugby to an extent and is most evident in the national side. The whole "jayz be careful would ye!" kind of mentality.

Thing is, if you watch S15 and NZ in particular, they do play outrageously. They do stupid things. But whenever the stupid things come off, they tend to be devastating to the opposition.

Look at Williams and his one hand pick up and basketballing. That sparked a break of 80metres or so. I also belive its players like that who say "I can work some magic here" time and time again that spark something in the players around them. There is no doubt that you can be spurred on by someone who looks like their self-confidence will never be dented.

You don't even see Williams swear when he looses the ball. He just gets on with it. Theres a belief in it. A belief that we can defend adequately, and a belief that it will work next time.

I for one do not want to see Williams stop the one handed stuff, or the monstrous carries.

And Jim Neilly is going to get muted next time he shows negative bias.

He actually blamed three points on Williams because he lost the ball a five minutes previous to the incident. Catch a grip.

Its exciting, determined, self believing rugby. Long may it continue!

Totally agree Clive. If Williams keeps playing the way he is then I can live with the odd handling error. The gains far outway the costs so far

...... flip he does make me nervous at times with that one handed carry though....

I agree with your point about playing a pacy, off-loading game, and Nick's attitude. I noticed when Tom Court knocked on from McComb(?)'s offload, and was walking back, shaking his head angrily, Nick was straight over, smiling, joking, patting Court on his derriere. There a “nothing ventured, nothing gained” approach that can be a bit heart-in-mouth, but which can also pay spectacular dividends.

But I think a more serious flaw is his inability to deal with the ball at the back of scrums. It was costly against Munster, with the advantage of a dominant scrum being nullified, and it was only Williams' sheer strength that stopped us getting turned over a couple of times in Cardiff. The ball just scoots out the back fairly regularly, ironically as we are marching forward. I wonder, when Diack recovers, whether he and Williams could play 6 and eight respectively, but reverse those positions when packing down?

In terms of our other players, I’d like to give a shout-out to the aforementioned Tom Court. He brutalised the Cardiff loosehead, couple of great carries, ferocious in defence. I really feel like he has grown into an important senior player for us.

In other news, Michael Allen has tweeted that he doesn’t expect to be out for too long. Massive relief.

Good shout on Court Don. Had an incredible game. It was his support play on Gilroys break that led to Williams second try too. He seems to the thriving alongside John Afoa.