Fullback choices for the Lions tour to Australia

by maestegmafia Mon 01 Apr 2013, 8:37 pm

by reallybored Tue 02 Apr 2013, 11:40 pm

I just think Hogg gives you something special, he has the ability to change a game in an instant. Obviously Halfpenny is the stronger defender but other than the Fofana try Hogg's defence wasn't an issue, plus he's got a good boot on him.

Halfpenny starts as favourite but Hogg's form is bubbling nicely and surrounded by better players on dry pitches he could be a menace that Gatland can't ignore. And he knows it.

I really hope Gatland goes out with no preconceived plans, for all the arguing and debating there isn't much between any of the 15 positions. And if all 37 players go out thinking they're in with a shot and Gatland gives every one a chance early, it'll be a hell of a tour because there is genuine quality competition across the board.

by RubyGuby Wed 03 Apr 2013, 9:43 am

I think Hogg; 1/2P and North would be a good shout in all honesty. I think we are forgetting that 1/2 P is a long range penalty machine and that could prove invaluable just as Neil Jenkins was a number of years ago.

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed 03 Apr 2013, 9:46 am

RubyGuby wrote: I think Hogg; 1/2P and North would be a good shout in all honesty. I think we are forgetting that 1/2 P is a long range penalty machine and that could prove invaluable just as Neil Jenkins was a number of years ago.

That back 3 makes perfect sense. I would assume with all probability that when fielding deep kicks Halfpenny would drop back anyway, Halfpenny and Hogg would take these kicks between them and counter attack in tandem on the hard grounds of Sydney, Melbourne etc and I reckon they would be devestating.

by Guest Wed 03 Apr 2013, 9:49 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
RubyGuby wrote: I think Hogg; 1/2P and North would be a good shout in all honesty. I think we are forgetting that 1/2 P is a long range penalty machine and that could prove invaluable just as Neil Jenkins was a number of years ago.

That back 3 makes perfect sense. I would assume with all probability that when fielding deep kicks Halfpenny would drop back anyway, Halfpenny and Hogg would take these kicks between them and counter attack in tandem on the hard grounds of Sydney, Melbourne etc and I reckon they would be devestating.

Exciting innit. I hope it does happen like that.

by **Biltong** Wed 03 Apr 2013, 11:34 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
RubyGuby wrote: I think Hogg; 1/2P and North would be a good shout in all honesty. I think we are forgetting that 1/2 P is a long range penalty machine and that could prove invaluable just as Neil Jenkins was a number of years ago.

That back 3 makes perfect sense. I would assume with all probability that when fielding deep kicks Halfpenny would drop back anyway, Halfpenny and Hogg would take these kicks between them and counter attack in tandem on the hard grounds of Sydney, Melbourne etc and I reckon they would be devestating.

One question though, would their defence be up to it? Neither Hogg or Halfpenny are defensively scary and North, although he has improved his work rate in defence, I would be questioning the combination defensively.

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed 03 Apr 2013, 11:38 am

Halfpenny is an excellent defender he hasn't missed a tackle in the 6N for what 2 years or something like that? Furthermore Hogg isn't half as bad as some people here are making out.

by **Biltong** Wed 03 Apr 2013, 11:48 am

Well you would know better than I would. thumbsup

by Guest Wed 03 Apr 2013, 11:58 am

I guess Halfpenny or Hogg would have some work to do to get back into the mindset of defending on the wing, but really it's just the same as Cuthbert having to work on his defensive position from time to time.

by **George Carlin** Wed 03 Apr 2013, 12:24 pm

I honestly think that full back is the area where we have perhaps the least to be worried about and the length of this thread comes from the happy fact that we have two exciting and certainly international class options.

History dictates that a lot of team selection decisions are determined by injury and it's difficult to believe that we won't get through the 7 dirtracker games without something substantial happening to at least one test starter.

At least the Aussies aren't likely to spear our best centre within 10 minutes of the test starting. Yahoo

by offload Wed 03 Apr 2013, 12:49 pm

George Carlin wrote:At least the Aussies aren't likely to spear our best centre within 10 minutes of the test starting.

Perhaps not, although you might want to ask ROG about a certain interaction with Duncan Mcrae 12 years ago. I think it was 11 punches and all O'Gara was doing was having a littlle lay down. boxing

by **George Carlin** Wed 03 Apr 2013, 1:09 pm

offload wrote:
George Carlin wrote:At least the Aussies aren't likely to spear our best centre within 10 minutes of the test starting.

Perhaps not, although you might want to ask ROG about a certain interaction with Duncan Mcrae 12 years ago. I think it was 11 punches and all O'Gara was doing was having a littlle lay down.

Damn - completely forgot about that.

Amazing part of the Lions DVD was interviewing him in the treatment room getting his face stitched up.

by dragonbreath Wed 03 Apr 2013, 1:57 pm

The first job of a full back is as the last line of defense. I don't think Halfpenny missed a single one on one tackle all tournament notworthy

whereas Fofana went through Hogg as he would a 6 year old girl. laughing

No contest for me. Halfpenny every time

by dublin_dave Wed 03 Apr 2013, 2:24 pm

hogg is a talent but im with dragonbreath. Has to be Halfpenny.

Halfpenny is excellent defensively and very brave under high ball and tackle. Hogg might have a shade more in terms of counter attacking ability

Kearney has forgotten how to counter attack and is in terrible form. Its not the first time he has had a dramatic loss of form in his career and he has bounced back.

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed 03 Apr 2013, 2:30 pm

Halfpenny has a habit of being left for dead by pacific islanders too. Although noone seems to remember that...

by **George Carlin** Wed 03 Apr 2013, 2:32 pm

We do, Radge, it's just that we're not allowed to talk about it. censored

by dragonbreath Wed 03 Apr 2013, 2:33 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Halfpenny has a habit of being left for dead by pacific islanders too. Although noone seems to remember that...

Remind us with a link if possible

TA

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed 03 Apr 2013, 2:47 pm

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Hnex8fd_Ky8

i don't like deriding players. Especially guys I really like (Halfpenny) but he is just as responsible for Samoa's last try as Hogg was for Frances' try.

It was also a sad end to the most recent Australia vs. Wales game when Halfpenny was turned into roadkill and left in a crumpled heap on the turf. Noone wants to see players get hurt but bravery counts for nothing when your technique is flawed.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XcCNmpXmnbM

and for the interests of balance, here is Halfpenny making an excellent tackle. We all know he is a solid defender. However dragonbreath you can't be so critical of Hogg for missing a tackle on a guy like Fofana. Far better players than Hogg have been made to look just as rediculous.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1FoX0minglc

by flyhalffactory Wed 03 Apr 2013, 2:54 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Hnex8fd_Ky8

i don't like deriding players. Especially guys I really like (Halfpenny) but he is just as responsible for Samoa's last try as Hogg was for Frances' try.

It was also a sad end to the most recent Australia vs. Wales game when Halfpenny was turned into roadkill and left in a crumpled heap on the turf. Noone wants to see players get hurt but bravery counts for nothing when your technique is flawed.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XcCNmpXmnbM

SHOCK SHOCK HORROR HORROR................ THIS CANNAE BE HE HASN'T MISSED A TACKLE IN OVER 28 MONTHS

by Sgt_Pooly Wed 03 Apr 2013, 2:56 pm

Harsh to blame Halfpenny for either of those, he's took down his man which is all you can ask.

I'm not a massive fan of his but he's solid defensively.

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed 03 Apr 2013, 3:01 pm

I know he is! That's what I said! I'm trying to prove a point that he still makes mistakes. Mistakes that cost tries. Just like Hogg did against France! steam

Hogg makes a mistake it is preyed upon by others and they dismiss statistics as conclusive proof he is weak in defence. Whereas Halfpenny another classy player makes mistakes and they are just swept under the rug.

They are 2 of our most potent weapons. I cant see why this thread has gone on for so long. Both of these guys should be in the 1st XV and the lions should focus on creating a platform to get these 2 fantastic players as much ball as possible.

by Sgt_Pooly Wed 03 Apr 2013, 3:04 pm

I don't really those proved your point lol

Halfpenny is a better defender than Hogg, that's not really a debate. Hogg may make the odd mistake but is electric in attack.

It's kind of non-issue as Gatland will pick Halfpenny at FB anyway.

by dragonbreath Wed 03 Apr 2013, 3:12 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Hnex8fd_Ky8

i don't like deriding players. Especially guys I really like (Halfpenny) but he is just as responsible for Samoa's last try as Hogg was for Frances' try.

It was also a sad end to the most recent Australia vs. Wales game when Halfpenny was turned into roadkill and left in a crumpled heap on the turf. Noone wants to see players get hurt but bravery counts for nothing when your technique is flawed.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XcCNmpXmnbM

and for the interests of balance, here is Halfpenny making an excellent tackle. We all know he is a solid defender. However dragonbreath you can't be so critical of Hogg for missing a tackle on a guy like Fofana. Far better players than Hogg have been made to look just as rediculous.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1FoX0minglc

Sorry I didn't see Halfpenny brushed aside like a child. He failed to ground a bobbling ball while being interfered with by a Samoan player. The two are in no way even comparable.

With respect to roadkill, one again don't really know what you are talking about. Man gets hurt making tackle. Please note making tackle not being swatted like a bug

Every one to their own but I prefer a man on my side who is brave rather than a Poopie, but thats just me Whistle

The mettle of a player is in how he defends in one on one situations, situations in which the attacker very often has the advantage. Halfpenny is exemplery in this regard. Hogg has shown himself fallable.

by **George Carlin** Wed 03 Apr 2013, 3:16 pm

Radge? How many times? We don't like (a) facts or (b) magnanimous views on these boards. Some players are just the bestest everest, without any manner of flaw, and if you don't agree, you are automatically smelly. Rolling Eyes

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed 03 Apr 2013, 3:31 pm

George Carlin wrote:Radge? How many times? We don't like (a) facts or (b) magnanimous views on these boards. Some players are just the bestest everest, without any manner of flaw, and if you don't agree, you are automatically smelly.

noted bud

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed 03 Apr 2013, 3:36 pm

Also worthy of note Hogg is just 20 years old. Defending internationally is normally the last string you add to your bow. Halfpenny wasn't always a superb defender yet he still got the call to tour with the Lions on 2009.

Currently Hogg is leading the poll here. Probably for stuff like this

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=S0WM4Izk15w

and this

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eHIfHWe--YI&feature=related

by RubyGuby Wed 03 Apr 2013, 3:38 pm

Now can you change your name to SmellyRadge please Run

by ChequeredJersey Wed 03 Apr 2013, 3:42 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Hnex8fd_Ky8

i don't like deriding players. Especially guys I really like (Halfpenny) but he is just as responsible for Samoa's last try as Hogg was for Frances' try.

It was also a sad end to the most recent Australia vs. Wales game when Halfpenny was turned into roadkill and left in a crumpled heap on the turf. Noone wants to see players get hurt but bravery counts for nothing when your technique is flawed.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XcCNmpXmnbM

SHOCK SHOCK HORROR HORROR................ THIS CANNAE BE HE HASN'T MISSED A TACKLE IN OVER 28 MONTHS

Halfpenny did the right thing and made his tackle in the latter clip? Not sure what it's meant to show, once the break was made and the Aussies had players in support it was a try

by Guest Wed 03 Apr 2013, 3:43 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I don't really those proved your point lol

Halfpenny is a better defender than Hogg, that's not really a debate. Hogg may make the odd mistake but is electric in attack.

It's kind of non-issue as Gatland will pick Halfpenny at FB anyway.

That's the key point here. These polls and discussions are all well and good, but Gatland is going to stick with a player he knows won't let him down at fullback. Should Gatland want an attacking 15, then I believe Halfpenny will be fine at that too.

No need for people to try and justify somebody's inclusion. Halfpenny and Hogg will provide great competition for each other and whichever Welsh fullback gets the test shirt, he will be worthy of it Wink

by bedfordwelsh Wed 03 Apr 2013, 3:48 pm

Actually if you watch a alot of Halfpennys tackles he has poor technique and you wouldn't coach youngsters to tackle like that.

What is his strong point especially for a relatively small bloke ih his bravery as he tends to 'throw' himself into tackles with little concern for himself.

by ChequeredJersey Wed 03 Apr 2013, 3:50 pm

Risca Rev wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:I don't really those proved your point lol

Halfpenny is a better defender than Hogg, that's not really a debate. Hogg may make the odd mistake but is electric in attack.

It's kind of non-issue as Gatland will pick Halfpenny at FB anyway.

That's the key point here. These polls and discussions are all well and good, but Gatland is going to stick with a player he knows won't let him down at fullback. Should Gatland want an attacking 15, then I believe Halfpenny will be fine at that too.

No need for people to try and justify somebody's inclusion. Halfpenny and Hogg will provide great competition for each other and whichever Welsh fullback gets the test shirt, he will be worthy of it

That'd be Byrne then?

by CurlyOsp Wed 03 Apr 2013, 3:50 pm

That Hogg try has been shown a few times but it's no difference to the likes of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDcVwDhepd0

Halfpenny is just as able in attack, the fact that he's not been used that way for Wales is as much down to game plan and having strong finishers around him as anything else.

So defence and experience are the deciding factors. Hogg is only 19, he's going to be a great player! But for now the 3 times 6 nations winning, world cup semifinalist Halfpenny is the better choice.

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed 03 Apr 2013, 3:53 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:Actually if you watch a alot of Halfpennys tackles he has poor technique and you wouldn't coach youngsters to tackle like that.

What is his strong point especially for a relatively small bloke ih his bravery as he tends to 'throw' himself into tackles with little concern for himself.

this is how wee guys should tackle.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ratc3RZpe4A

I remember when Patterson got stick for being "fallible" in defence.

by **George Carlin** Wed 03 Apr 2013, 3:56 pm

Excellent score.

Plenty good stuff to come from both of them:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z91l6pyMcyY

by Guest Wed 03 Apr 2013, 4:11 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:
Risca Rev wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:I don't really those proved your point lol

Halfpenny is a better defender than Hogg, that's not really a debate. Hogg may make the odd mistake but is electric in attack.

It's kind of non-issue as Gatland will pick Halfpenny at FB anyway.

That's the key point here. These polls and discussions are all well and good, but Gatland is going to stick with a player he knows won't let him down at fullback. Should Gatland want an attacking 15, then I believe Halfpenny will be fine at that too.

No need for people to try and justify somebody's inclusion. Halfpenny and Hogg will provide great competition for each other and whichever Welsh fullback gets the test shirt, he will be worthy of it

That'd be Byrne then?

Before the 6 Nations, I would have loved Byrne to be Wales' fullback and Halfpenny to be wing instead of Cuthbert. Now that's changed.

by welshboii15 Wed 03 Apr 2013, 4:19 pm

Just a question from that video of Hogg two of his tries against munster ain't that special all he does is show a little bit power on the second and abit of pace on the first not that special nothing that shows his brilliance. The only ones that show anything good is when he breaks through the England line for maitlands try I think it is and I think the other try is against englands under 20s so i dont sew the big fuss the boy brings pace that's all

by reallybored Wed 03 Apr 2013, 5:01 pm

And all Halfpenny brings is average goal kicking and a road bump in defence.

by flyhalffactory Wed 03 Apr 2013, 5:16 pm

welshboii15 wrote:Just a question from that video of Hogg two of his tries against munster ain't that special all he does is show a little bit power on the second and abit of pace on the first not that special nothing that shows his brilliance. The only ones that show anything good is when he breaks through the England line for maitlands try I think it is and I think the other try is against englands under 20s so i dont sew the big fuss the boy brings pace that's all

How old actually are you "welsh boii"?

by welshboii15 Wed 03 Apr 2013, 5:28 pm

21 its like the try halfpenny scores good tries but all is comes down to is pace.
Where the try shane Williams scores against south Africa when he has 4 players trying to grab hold him that's an out standing try

by Taffineastbourne Wed 03 Apr 2013, 5:32 pm

I think that the idea of shifting the Player of the 6Nations to accommodate a very good but lesser player has ruffled a few feathers.
This illogical bias is simply juvenile.
In simplistic terms Gatland is charged with picking the team that gives him the best chance of victory.A good starting point is to pick the best player in each position and see if they can play to your choice of tactics.

by RubyGuby Wed 03 Apr 2013, 5:35 pm

Thank God we never had illogical bias around when Neil Jenkins was moved to Full Back for the Lions thumbsup

by flyhalffactory Wed 03 Apr 2013, 5:58 pm

by flyhalffactory Wed 03 Apr 2013, 6:00 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
Taffineastbourne wrote:I think that the idea of shifting the Player of the 6Nations to accommodate a very good but lesser player has ruffled a few feathers.
This illogical bias is simply juvenile.
In simplistic terms Gatland is charged with picking the team that gives him the best chance of victory.A good starting point is to pick the best player in each position and see if they can play to your choice of tactics.

Halfpenny was rightfully player of the tournament not least assisted by playing with a very good squad as much as he is a superb player. I would say of Hogg if he was FB in that Welsh setup would have the same accolade and you Welsh guys would be gushing uncontrollably and stating how much of a "naturally talented" player he is. The poll highlights that most don't regard Hogg as a "lesser" player in fact the other way around, the posters who argue with this by pulling apart a player without factual back-up is quite immature and juvenile

I think Gatland & Co (when reviewing Halfpenny v Hogg in training on the hard pitches) will see how good an attacking force Halfpenny can be and how good Hogg really is in defence and will make the correct call

by glamorganalun Wed 03 Apr 2013, 6:00 pm

dragonbreath wrote:The first job of a full back is as the last line of defense. I don't think Halfpenny missed a single one on one tackle all tournament whereas Fofana went through Hogg as he would a 6 year old girl.

No contest for me. Halfpenny every time

I have to agree with this post, halfpenny makes very few errors in the big games. It is a shame Wales did not play Bryne at full back or at least as a sub as I believe he has been playing well for his club, like Kearney he takes the high ball, runs very good lines, kicks the ball miles but unlike Kearney and Hogg he is/was a good tackler.

by flyhalffactory Wed 03 Apr 2013, 6:09 pm

Alun

There has been clips of 1/2p been run over, dummied/outpaced and out of position over the last two years...... he hasn't actually missed a tackle, but in my mind that is poor defending

Hogg has been recorded as having seven miss tackles, of which one he actually had his hand on a shoulder, covered Vissers poor defending on three occasions (similar to 1/2p covering Hooks poor defending and missing the offensive shoulder) and once Maitland, that leaves TWO that he could be on a head to head have actually lost out defensively of which one was against Fofana who is one of the best centres around, and you can see how angry Hogg was at such a poor attempt.

So where is this myth of Hogg being a poor defender

by Tattie Scones RRN Wed 03 Apr 2013, 6:10 pm

So basically, the Welsh are saying they won't have two exceptional players on the pitch (Hogg and Halfpenny). Is it because that would mean North and/or Cuthbert would have to drop out?? Or is it that anybody who isn't Welsh is not worthy of a place?

Good to see the Lions concept of togetherness alive and kicking.

It shouldn't, but reading some of the crap on this post ruins my feicing day sometimes.

by welshboii15 Wed 03 Apr 2013, 6:21 pm

Nobody is saying Hogg isn't talented he's just not as good as halfpenny. He's a good player and does what he does really good but if he was the welsh full back then he wouldn't be doing the attacking stuff he would be defending and its not his strongest point. Halfpenny that plays for blues is different to halfpenny that plays for Wales, halfpenny attacks more for blues and defends more for Wales so this got to mean its the coaches telling halfpenny not to attack rather than him not wanting to

by IanBru Wed 03 Apr 2013, 6:26 pm

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:Or is it that anybody who isn't Welsh is not worthy of a place?

You've got it in one, Tattie.

Whether consciously or unconsciously, some Welsh supporters (thankfully not all, nor even the majority) will assume, regardless of evidence that contradicts their view, that Welsh players are by their very nature better than players from other countries. That Scrumdown nut job springs to mind.

Personally, I blame Scrum V for most of this. If it doesn't involve Wales, no one is interested. I said the same thing in criticising ITV's coverage at the World Cup (though referring to England in that case), and the same rings true here. They assume that if you support Wales or Welsh regions, you won't care two hoots about what the other teams are doing. They assume that the Sun rises and sets between Jack Cuthbert's ears (granted, something surely must be taking place there), and that the viewers believe the same. In short, Scrum V have an incredibly low opinion of their viewers, and that really bothers me.

For example, people in Wales wouldn't have had the opportunity to see highlights of the Leinster v Ulster, Glasgow v Munster or Zebre v Edinburgh clashes, despite two of these clashes being excellent games and crucial to the fortunes of the Welsh teams. But no, they didn't involve a Welsh team, so there were no highlights.

The knock-on effect of all this is that some Welsh supporters assume (for want of any contradiction from the goggle box) that Welsh players are simply God's gift. What's more insidious is that any player who threatens the apple cart by daring to be better than his Welsh counterpart (like Hogg has with Halfpenny) will be the subject of mindless attacks by the one-eyed brigade.

True rugby supporters know better, of course, but it doesn't stop a minority making idiots of themselves.

by Liam Wed 03 Apr 2013, 6:28 pm

I agree Welsh Boi, thing is Blues have such a terrible pack they have no choice but to just throw it out to the backs and hope we can score some tries. 1/2p is a superb attacker and when given the chance to finish a try scoring opportunity he will finish it.

Could you argue with a back three of 15. 1/2p 14. Cuthbert 11. North. I know Cuthbert's defence has been called into question but you cannot ignore his incredible finishing ability. Against Oz in the summer tour he was superb in attack.

by flyhalffactory Wed 03 Apr 2013, 6:35 pm

welshboii15 wrote:Nobody is saying Hogg isn't talented he's just not as good as halfpenny. He's a good player and does what he does really good but if he was the welsh full back then he wouldn't be doing the attacking stuff he would be defending and its not his strongest point. Halfpenny that plays for blues is different to halfpenny that plays for Wales, halfpenny attacks more for blues and defends more for Wales so this got to mean its the coaches telling halfpenny not to attack rather than him not wanting to

Welsh Boii

I know you said you are 21 but really how old are you?, this is like getting blood out of a stone....... We have already proved that Hogg is a good defender and on evidence a better attacker. Coversely 1/2p clips have shown him to be out of position, dummied and outpaced in the autumn series, down Oz and for the Blues.

Who do you support on a regional level?, and do you actually go down and watch live matches?, Phil Davies has already stated that 1/2p plays in the same style for Wales as he is instructed to for the Blues and the odd attacking interlude into the opponents half doesn't change things.

by welshboii15 Wed 03 Apr 2013, 6:40 pm

I wouldn't argue the back line of Hogg, Cuthbert and north I just don't like the fact of dropping a winger that's done nothing wrong to fit in someone who isn't an out and out wing anymore.
Yea Hogg is better attacker than a defender, where halfpenny is a better defender than attacker that's what im getting at. I don't just support one welsh team I want them all to do well but if I had pick I would say dragons because their not expected to do brilliant. But my favourite team would be wasps because I like the way they play.

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