Fullback choices for the Lions tour to Australia

First topic message reminder :

Six nations is done. We are a year on since I last held one of these polls and the long term aim was to compare what we selected a year out, a month out and the final squad.

You can pick one player only as your first choice.

I think I have grabbed most of the names in the hat, though my apologies if anyone you consider worthy has been forgotten, if you ask nicely then I am sure one of our excellent moderators might take the time to be kind enough to offer their much valued assistance.

The players included either showed in the Six Nations squads or have been regularly talked of as prospects on the various threads on here.

Looseheads - https://www.606v2.com/t42452-loosehead-choices-for-the-lions-tour-to-australia

Hookers - https://www.606v2.com/t42471-hooker-choices-for-the-lions-tour-to-australia

Tightheads - https://www.606v2.com/t42486-tighthead-choices-for-the-lions-tour-to-australia

Lock No. 4 - https://www.606v2.com/t42501-number-4-lock-choices-for-the-lions-tour-to-australia#1956467

Lock no. 5 - https://www.606v2.com/t42502-number-5-lock-choices-for-the-lions-tour-to-australia

Blindside Flanker - https://www.606v2.com/t42514-blindside-flanker-choices-for-the-lions-tour-to-australia

Openside Flanker - https://www.606v2.com/t42515-ospenside-flanker-choices-for-the-lions-tour-to-australia#1956975

Number 8 - https://www.606v2.com/t42518-number-eight-choices-for-the-lions-tour-to-australia#1958144

Scrumhalf - https://www.606v2.com/t42531-scrumhalf-choices-for-the-lions-tour-to-australia

Flyhalf - https://www.606v2.com/t42539-flyhalf-choices-for-the-lions-tour-to-australia#1958609

Inside Centre - https://www.606v2.com/t42557-inside-centre-choices-for-the-lions-tour-to-australia#1959728

Outside Centre - https://www.606v2.com/t42556-outside-centre-choices-for-the-lions-tour-to-australia

Left Wing - https://www.606v2.com/t42575-left-wing-choices-for-the-lions-tour-to-australia#1960513

Fullback - https://www.606v2.com/t42577-right-wing-choices-for-the-lions-tour-to-australia

Because he has the ability to beat a man and in the modern International game very few players can do this.

His kicking is strong, defence isn't an issue plus he's playing with confidence, I'd agree that Halfpenny is probably the better defender but hasn't done anything of note in attack.

The best 15 in the World in my opinion is Israel Dagg and he's not the best defender.

See your basing that on his attack not his all round game.

Halfpenny all ways beats the first defender.
Amazing under high ball.
Great finisher.
Strong kicker out of hand.
Out standing goal kicker.
He's got pace.
world class defender.

Hogg ok under high ball.
A lot of pace.
Ok in defence.
Solid kicker out of hand.
Beats defenders.
Ok in defence.

Halfpenny is the better all round full back. Hogg is only better than halfpenny in attack

Good use of adverbs for describing Halfpenny,

This is just a debate over Hogg's attack ability vs. Halfpenny's defensive ability.

And in my opinion, I don't think we'll beat Australia be being conservative because they will score points.

But it shouldn't be about defensive or attacking it should be about their all around game and personally I think halfpenny has the better all round game, their not going name him six nations player of the tournament for that, its for his all round play. Im not doubting hoggs ability well I don't mean to but if he was as good then he would have been in 6 nations team of the tournament as far as I know he wasn't and he would have been above halfpenny in player of tournament.

Or is the fact he's Scottish and the whole world us against you that he didn't get it

Doesnt player of the tournament have to have got a MOTM?

welshboii15 wrote:See your basing that on his attack not his all round game.

Halfpenny all ways beats the first defender.
Amazing under high ball.
Great finisher.
Strong kicker out of hand.
Out standing goal kicker.
He's got pace.
world class defender.

Hogg ok under high ball.
A lot of pace.
Ok in defence.
Solid kicker out of hand.
Beats defenders.
Ok in defence.

Halfpenny is the better all round full back. Hogg is only better than halfpenny in attack

as before this is just NOISE............ no evidence


How old are you again?

worth taking a gander at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJTBPdVpdMc

Im not sure how it works but there's no reason why hogg shouldn't have had at least one if he's that good.

Just noise aii that's what you get being around your misses everyday noise.

watch the 6 nations again that will prove everything I said

Take Halfpenny's goal kicking out of the equation and tell me what he did that was better than Picamoles in open play?

Obviously his goal kicking is important, Wales wouldn't have won without him and it could be important to the Lions as well. But bare in mind that who ever starts at fly-half will be a good kicker and more than capable of taking the responsibility.

welshboii15 wrote:But it shouldn't be about defensive or attacking it should be about their all around game and personally I think halfpenny has the better all round game, their not going name him six nations player of the tournament for that, its for his all round play. Im not doubting hoggs ability well I don't mean to but if he was as good then he would have been in 6 nations team of the tournament as far as I know he wasn't and he would have been above halfpenny in player of tournament.

What you should ask yourself is

If Hogg was FB in that Welsh 15 that won the 6Ns, how more effective than 1/2p would have Hogg been?

How many tries would he have scored and would his defence been good enough to counter-balance his try scoring ability, as we all know he is on par with 1/2p on the high ball (they both won one ball each when they played head to head), and he can assess the play in front of him probably better as can be seen from his angled runs in the 6Ns

I would suggest by June when the 1st Test arrives Hogg will be the man

welshboii15 wrote:Im not sure how it works but there's no reason why hogg shouldn't have had at least one if he's that good.

Just noise aii that's what you get being around your misses everyday noise.

watch the 6 nations again that will prove everything I said

More Noise

The number of last try scoring tackles he made alone were enough for at least one MOTM the one against England springs to mind if he didn't make it flood was over. The fact he made very little mistakes through the tournament everytime he did nothing wrong at all through the entire 6 nations.

personally I don't think hogg would be as good in the welsh side because he would be asked to defend more than attack, where as for Scotland he's given the freedom to do as he pleases and attack attack attack which suits Hogg but I think halfpenny as proven its got be the welsh tactics for him not to hit the line in attack because on the weekend he did it alot for the blues I know because I was there.

Flyhalffactory shut the Frak up you couch potato you most likely never played a game of rugby in your life, the closest you have come to it is Jonah lomu rugby on ps2 or pub level rugby

Frak not frak

I think that confirms a few things and puts into perspective where Hogg at 20 is compared to Halfpenny

welshboii15 wrote:The number of last try scoring tackles he made alone were enough for at least one MOTM the one against England springs to mind if he didn't make it flood was over. The fact he made very little mistakes through the tournament everytime he did nothing wrong at all through the entire 6 nations.

personally I don't think hogg would be as good in the welsh side because he would be asked to defend more than attack, where as for Scotland he's given the freedom to do as he pleases and attack attack attack which suits Hogg but I think halfpenny as proven its got be the welsh tactics for him not to hit the line in attack because on the weekend he did it alot for the blues I know because I was there.

Flyhalffactory shut the Frak up you couch potato you most likely never played a game of rugby in your life, the closest you have come to it is Jonah lomu rugby on ps2 or pub level rugby

Doubt if you have ever been to a stadium in your young life, but I have an open mind
Now we are getting the real welshboii 15 yr old lad........ hoody when out my little padawan

welshboii15 wrote:The number of last try scoring tackles he made alone were enough for at least one MOTM the one against England springs to mind if he didn't make it flood was over. The fact he made very little mistakes through the tournament everytime he did nothing wrong at all through the entire 6 nations.

Please enlighten me on the number of try saving tackles because stopping Toby Flood is hardly stopping Vincent Debaty and I can't remember any others.

And he did make mistakes, not many but a few that went unnoticed; couple missed high balls against Italy and a charge down, missed kicks against Scotland, involved in defensive frailties against Ireland.

Maybe if Wales had a dangerous attack fullback they might not play such boring defensive rugby

Nope 15 stands for number of favourite player lee Byrne. And yip that's me never been to a stadium In my life only watched every home game Wales have played for past 3 years and also spend alot time watching the blues or dragons depends who's playing home and who their playing. Nope never played only played just every district available at out side centre until i moved away

I don't know as a Welsh man how good 1/2p could be going forward due to the game plan Wales adopt, which rarely allows him to bomb forward. He'd be my pick for the Lions 15, I really like Hogg, I think he's an outstanding prospect but I believe 1/2p is the more rounded player at this moment in time. In a few more years who knows. The big thing that edges 1/2p I think for many is his outstanding kicking, you just can't ignore it for me.

Gatland is going to use the same game plan he's put in place for Wales. Whoever is fullback will be playing a primarily defensive game.

Bearing this in mind, Halfpenny is the logical choice. Yes, his defence is all that anyone is banging on about but it matters, players like Ioane, Beale and Cummins are some of the best runners in the world. Hogg having made 9 and missed 7 would be a big risk.

For now, I would personally have Hogg on the bench. We are not used to playing running rugby for 80 minutes like the Auzzies, it's their game, we wont beat them at it. Wear them down, then bring Hogg on with 25/30 minutes to go and let him do what he does best, run riots.

By the next Lions tour, Hogg is likely to be something special, but for all of his talent right now he is still raw and inexperienced. Could Scottish fans justify Launchberry starting over Gray? The former being in arguably better form this season, but far less experienced.

Liam I agree 1/2p is a machine when it comes to kicking absolutely astounding and if Sexton plays 10 then you will need him in to kick, if Farrell or Biggar plays 10 then they can kick with the same accuracy, however if Laidlaw plays 9 (very unlikely tho) then he is even more deadly accurate and should take the kicks, hence you then compare the other assets of the two FBS then

On the hard pitches down under speed and awareness of the attacking options will be vital

Good point though

CurlyOsp wrote:Gatland is going to use the same game plan he's put in place for Wales. Whoever is fullback will be playing a primarily defensive game.

Bearing this in mind, Halfpenny is the logical choice. Yes, his defence is all that anyone is banging on about but it matters, players like Ioane, Beale and Cummins are some of the best runners in the world. Hogg having made 9 and missed 7 would be a big risk.

For now, I would personally have Hogg on the bench. We are not used to playing running rugby for 80 minutes like the Auzzies, it's their game, we wont beat them at it. Wear them down, then bring Hogg on with 25/30 minutes to go and let him do what he does best, run riots.

By the next Lions tour, Hogg is likely to be something special, but for all of his talent right now he is still raw and inexperienced. Could Scottish fans justify Launchberry starting over Gray? The former being in arguably better form this season, but far less experienced.

He will not for the primary reason that Wales lost all three matches when they used a defensive plan, hence your rationale goes out of the window

Then the logical choice is attack ergo Gatland will choose Hogg

And by the way he is something special now as the 6Ns comparative stats between Halfpenny v Hogg reveals

If Launchberry is on form and is playing better then you select him of course you do

It wasn't a dig at Hogg, in fact the opposite, it's just hasty to claim he's something special after a short amount of time. I honestly think he will go from strength to strength, but lets not forget that there have been players who've had a blistering start to their international careers before being completely exposed (Ashton cough cough).

Do you honestly believe that we have the firepower to outscore Austalia through all out attack? Opening up the game just leaves us vulnerable, Genia and Cooper would have a field day in open play.

You're right that Gatlands approach hasn't worked with Wales, but this isn't Wales. And even when it didn't work with Wales he didn't change it for them.

flyhalffactory wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:Alun

There has been clips of 1/2p been run over, dummied/outpaced and out of position over the last two years...... he hasn't actually missed a tackle, but in my mind that is poor defending

Hogg has been recorded as having seven miss tackles, of which one he actually had his hand on a shoulder, covered Vissers poor defending on three occasions (similar to 1/2p covering Hooks poor defending and missing the offensive shoulder) and once Maitland, that leaves TWO that he could be on a head to head have actually lost out defensively of which one was against Fofana who is one of the best centres around, and you can see how angry Hogg was at such a poor attempt.

So where is this myth of Hogg being a poor defender

Anyone who has had one "oh he looks big" moment is likely to have another. Two risky IMO

So dragonbreath........... obviously you watched the France v Scotland match, yes?

And you saw De Batty of course you did, by the way just to nudge you in the right direction he was the huge French prop, who built up helluva head of steam towards Hogg and of course you know what the result was........ Hogg who saw him thought

"OH HE LOOKS BIG"

Ahem no! he not only absolutely nailed him but won the penalty, but 1/2p in a similar position was steam rolled over ended up with his head between legs highlighting his poor technique.

Now us Scots have never commented on the amount of times he has been dummied, outpaced, or been out of position in Oz or during the autumn series, but certain Welsh posters have commented on Fofana tucking Hogg up like a kipper and crucified him as a poor defender. It comes to something when we have to come back with past evidence on a bloody world class player so has to defend our own

ps. funny how every poll you have commented on has you running down other nations players who are ahead of Welsh players in the various positions

Firstly anyone can tackle a prop running straight at you, they fall over you most of the time.

Secondly, there are constant references to HP being outpaced, blah blah but when challenged a earlier poster failed to come up with any video evidence.

Hogg made 9 tackles and MISSED 7. Are you really suggesting that this is good enough for a Lions fullback. Be serious you are just making yourself look stupid.

Thirdly, Fofana did make Hogg look like a mug. He also made Chris Ashton (a similarily destructive defensive force) look like a mug. See the connection

CurlyOsp wrote:It wasn't a dig at Hogg, in fact the opposite, it's just hasty to claim he's something special after a short amount of time. I honestly think he will go from strength to strength, but lets not forget that there have been players who've had a blistering start to their international careers before being completely exposed (Ashton cough cough).

Do you honestly believe that we have the firepower to outscore Austalia through all out attack? Opening up the game just leaves us vulnerable, Genia and Cooper would have a field day in open play.

You're right that Gatlands approach hasn't worked with Wales, but this isn't Wales. And even when it didn't work with Wales he didn't change it for them.

The difference is that Gatland can do anything he likes with the WRU but its a different kettle of fish with the Lions hierarchy, and I don't want to start a war on selection but the following backs will be solid defensively and blistering offensively........ (its academic as I believe the game will be won with the front five anyway) but

15 Hogg
14 Halfpenny
11 North

13 Davies
12 Taulagi / BOD / Roberts

10 Sexton
9 Phillips / Youngs

That's positions 13 - 9 all above 15 1/2 stone and pretty nifty and still revealing Wales with four maybe five players

For arguments sake, say that is the back 3 picked to start the first test; wouldn't you rather have Hogg on the wing where he'd get more chance to run and have the touch line to aid with any defensive doubts?

dragonbreath wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:Alun

There has been clips of 1/2p been run over, dummied/outpaced and out of position over the last two years...... he hasn't actually missed a tackle, but in my mind that is poor defending

Hogg has been recorded as having seven miss tackles, of which one he actually had his hand on a shoulder, covered Vissers poor defending on three occasions (similar to 1/2p covering Hooks poor defending and missing the offensive shoulder) and once Maitland, that leaves TWO that he could be on a head to head have actually lost out defensively of which one was against Fofana who is one of the best centres around, and you can see how angry Hogg was at such a poor attempt.

So where is this myth of Hogg being a poor defender

Anyone who has had one "oh he looks big" moment is likely to have another. Two risky IMO

So dragonbreath........... obviously you watched the France v Scotland match, yes?

And you saw De Batty of course you did, by the way just to nudge you in the right direction he was the huge French prop, who built up helluva head of steam towards Hogg and of course you know what the result was........ Hogg who saw him thought

"OH HE LOOKS BIG"

Ahem no! he not only absolutely nailed him but won the penalty, but 1/2p in a similar position was steam rolled over ended up with his head between legs highlighting his poor technique.

Now us Scots have never commented on the amount of times he has been dummied, outpaced, or been out of position in Oz or during the autumn series, but certain Welsh posters have commented on Fofana tucking Hogg up like a kipper and crucified him as a poor defender. It comes to something when we have to come back with past evidence on a bloody world class player so has to defend our own

ps. funny how every poll you have commented on has you running down other nations players who are ahead of Welsh players in the various positions

Firstly anyone can tackle a prop running straight at you, they fall over you most of the time.

Secondly, there are constant references to HP being outpaced, blah blah but when challenged a earlier poster failed to come up with any video evidence.

Hogg made 9 tackles and MISSED 7. Are you really suggesting that this is good enough for a Lions fullback. Be serious you are just making yourself look stupid.

Thirdly, Fofana did make Hogg look like a mug. He also made Chris Ashton (a similarily destructive defensive force) look like a mug. See the connection

Funny then because look on the utube evidence earlier in this post and Halfpenny couldn't tackle in the same way and got bundled over

Ok for the umpteenth time have YOU evidence that he missed 7 tackles....... no you damn well havent

3 he covered Vissers poor attempts to tackle against England and it was last gasp with little or no hope of stopping them....... similar to 1/2p in the Oz and autumn series with Hook

1 He tapped Ashtons shoulder in the midfield slot which in no way should have been considered a tackle
1 he covered Maitlands poor attempt to tackle in the last game

that leaves 2 legitimate tackles which can be construed as head on head tackle one of which Fofana tucked him up like a kipper and all the scots posters are man enough to admit he should have done better

HOWEVER WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER DAMINING STATS IN FAVOUR OF HOGG apart from the tackle count he bettered 1/2p in every other area, he is a more offensive player by 100% and that is in a much worse starting 15, how much better would he be playing FB for Wales in the 6Ns......... the mind boggles how much more effective he would have been

CurlyOsp wrote:For arguments sake, say that is the back 3 picked to start the first test; wouldn't you rather have Hogg on the wing where he'd get more chance to run and have the touch line to aid with any defensive doubts?

I think Halfpenny is talented enough to play world class level at 15 and 14, in my mind he is better than Cuthbert, he was pushed to FB because Byrne was out of form, Hook was dire, and Liam Williams was too inexperienced otherwise he would still be on the wing

So wouldn't mind

15 Halfpenny
14 Hogg

Either way, both deserve to be included and both are going to have their shot at fullback at some point, whether in a test or midweek, it's certainly building up to be the most exciting shirt contest.

CurlyOsp wrote:Either way, both deserve to be included and both are going to have their shot at fullback at some point, whether in a test or midweek, it's certainly building up to be the most exciting shirt contest.

If the truth be known most Scots on here have nothing but praise for 1/2p and would pencil him in first but would like Hogg to play alongside him, unfortunately a lot of the Welsh posters have thrown their toys out of the pram at the thought of Cuthbert been dropped for Hogg

CurlyOsp wrote:For arguments sake, say that is the back 3 picked to start the first test; wouldn't you rather have Hogg on the wing where he'd get more chance to run and have the touch line to aid with any defensive doubts?

I'd actually prefer him at fullback, although I see where you're coming from Curly. Hogg is a great player to have at fullback, because he has a huge boot and when he goes for a run he consistently finds gaps and screams down the pitch. I think this would give the Lions a distinct advantage in attack and would also make the games far more exciting to watch, rather than having a fullback who is more accomplished in defence (Do we really want to see a repeat of Wales summer tour? No offence meant, but I found the lack of creativity from both sides very boring to watch).

I actually like the idea of halfpenny on the wing because he is very good at finishing, as he has shown many times for Blues and Wales. He's a tough nugget and always seems to score when he's close to the try line. Hogg wouldn't work on the wing in my view, needs to be at fullback where he can have more options. But I really would like Halfpenny on the pitch too, he is a bloody good player and his ability to steal ball in the air is invaluable.

CurlyOsp wrote:Gatland is going to use the same game plan he's put in place for Wales. Whoever is fullback will be playing a primarily defensive game.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results...

I wake up this morning to this poo flinging from the WUM monkeys, which is incredibly disappointing given the number of other threads that have already been closed due to people being unable to reign back their collective horses.

There is categorically no point in this thread continuing. I can only assume the posters above (and if you don't know who you are, I fear for you in life) are under 16 or have helicopter parents because outside the school playground the unfortunate truth of it is that you will find people with differing opinions to yours, which are well considered and well substantiated.

The two players who are the subject of this thread are different in style and have differing strengths and weaknesses. Both will travel. Who will play depends on what the coach is trying to achieve. Every team in the country would be glad to have either of them.

That's it.

Many people will never agree whether JPR Williams or Christian Cullen was the greatest ever full back. JPR had the complete game , most notably in defense where he was a kevlar wall for opposing players to run into. Cullen was the only player I have ever seen who was genuinely unplayable in attack and could split games open in a second.

The reason I mention this is because there are good arguments on both sides and whilst my preference is for Cullen, I don't think I have the right to take it upon myself to question the parentage, intellect or sanity of anyone who prefers Williams. If you aren't confident enough in your own opinions to express them calmly and reasonably, then I hope for everyone's sake that you'll summon up the courage to put down the keyboard and do what you'd really like to do, which is to throw stones at opposing teams' buses.

This is becoming very tiresome. No problem with a good debate but when people start throwing about personal insults and unfounded accusations about someone's rugby knowledge it just comes across as completely childish.

Mod hat off - I'm with George on this one - 1/2p is definitely the most complete 15 available, however Hogg is by far and away the best attacking full back available.

You need both on a lions tour - both should travel and both deserve to travel. As far as I'm concerned that's all that needs to be said.

We're all British or Irish on this thread, right? So why can't we just be pleased that we have two fine fullbacks fighting for the Test jersey? Why can't we champion one without denigrating the other?

I'd prefer to see Hogg at fullback, Halfpenny on the right wing. Moving him won't affect his ability to kick goals. Hogg is too potent an attacking player to leave out.

It's important to point out that not one Scottish poster has had anything bad to say about Halfpenny, most like me have said he was thouroughly deserving of Player of the tournament and he has been Wales best player for well over a year now.

Hogg however brings a massive attacking threat and I don't think it's too unreasonable to swap Halfpenny to the wing, and allow Hogg and Halfpenny free reign to swap, chop and change their positions on the pitch in defence and attack to watch them tear up the hard, fast grounds in Australia and attack the line in Tandem. Who wouldn't want to see that?

I personally don’t think 1/2P should be put on the wing – I think it should be a straight fight between him and Hogg (or whoever is picked) for the 15 shirt. 1/2P is a fantastic fullback but we have much better wingers and I think it would be losing some of or most potent attacking weapons if we feel we have to make room for 1/2P on the wing. For me North/Cuthbert/Visser/Zebo/Bow/Maitland etc are all much better wingers and we would be silly to lose one of their talents and end up with an unbalanced back 3.

So keep your best players in their best positions – in such a short space of time the Lions would take a big risk by doing anything else.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:It's important to point out that not one Scottish poster has had anything bad to say about Halfpenny, most like me have said he was thouroughly deserving of Player of the tournament and he has been Wales best player for well over a year now.

Hogg however brings a massive attacking threat and I don't think it's too unreasonable to swap Halfpenny to the wing, and allow Hogg and Halfpenny free reign to swap, chop and change their positions on the pitch in defence and attack to watch them tear up the hard, fast grounds in Australia and attack the line in Tandem. Who wouldn't want to see that?

Really? The whole Scottish argument is that Halfpenny can't attack, isn't a good running player, isn't as potent a threat. That's saying something 'bad', surely? The counter argument is that Hogg isn't as good in defence or as good as a kicker. Which is just saying bad things too, surely? So both sets of fans have been saying 'bad' things, right? What is it that the welsh have been saying that is worse in particular? No one has said that Hogg is an evil person or a nasty man. Both sets of fans have pointed out the perceived weaknesses in the other player's game. No difference really.

Griff wrote:
Really? The whole Scottish argument is that Halfpenny can't attack, isn't a good running player, isn't as potent a threat. That's saying something 'bad', surely? The counter argument is that Hogg isn't as good in defence or as good as a kicker. Which is just saying bad things too, surely? So both sets of fans have been saying 'bad' things, right? What is it that the welsh have been saying that is worse in particular? No one has said that Hogg is an evil person or a nasty man. Both sets of fans have pointed out the perceived weaknesses in the other player's game. No difference really.

I will give you £100 sterling if you can find any comment by me that said Halfpenny can't attack.

I posed the question earlier in the thread "Why does he not attack?" like he used to when he was on the wing, or "Why doesn't he attack the line like Byrne used to?". I even said I have seen Halfpenny do it, and posed the question whether or not he has lost that aspect of his game because North and Cuthber are used as the Welsh strike runners.

Halfpenny is a good attcker and he offers something different to Wales in an attacking sense when comparing him to North or Cutbert.

A startling fact is the big bish bash bosh of the Welsh backs has failed to beat the Ozzies in the last few games you have played them, had Halfpenny been brought into the game more instead of relying on route 1 rugby from Roberts, North & Cuthbert things might have been different.

Something different has to be done to make sure the Lions don't fall into the same trap. I think the best place to start would be to have a more elusive attacking back 3 starting with Hogg and Halfpnenny + A N Other.

RDW_Scotland wrote:I personally don’t think 1/2P should be put on the wing – I think it should be a straight fight between him and Hogg (or whoever is picked) for the 15 shirt. 1/2P is a fantastic fullback but we have much better wingers and I think it would be losing some of or most potent attacking weapons if we feel we have to make room for 1/2P on the wing. For me North/Cuthbert/Visser/Zebo/Bow/Maitland etc are all much better wingers and we would be silly to lose one of their talents and end up with an unbalanced back 3.

So keep your best players in their best positions – in such a short space of time the Lions would take a big risk by doing anything else.

Completely agree with this. If 1/2p misses out on 15 then he misses out on a place in the team IMO. No need to create a new place for him. He's not that good! However, I've mentioned it a few times, and not many people have discussed it, but the gameplan is the biggie for me. Watch Halfpenny for the Blues: he's a much more potent and attacking threat from 15 when he joins the line and makes great line breaks. Why? Different game plan. So, is Hogg a better attacker because he just is, or because he's allowed to? Hard to answer. I just know that Halfpenny and Shaun Edwards have both talked about the plan being for Halfpenny not to join the line and to stay back in case of turnover, and to kick everything long and in field in his own half, so taking the decision to run out of his hands. The question therefore is whether you think a) Gatland will suddenly change from his style of plan (he should IMO, but will he do it just because I think it?!), and b) will Hogg flourish under this sort of game plan? Will he be happy to follow those sort of orders? Will he star as a defensive 15 if that's the role Gatland seeks? If not, and if that is evident in the warm up games, then Gatland may plump for someone he knows will stick to the plan.

Griff wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:I personally don’t think 1/2P should be put on the wing – I think it should be a straight fight between him and Hogg (or whoever is picked) for the 15 shirt. 1/2P is a fantastic fullback but we have much better wingers and I think it would be losing some of or most potent attacking weapons if we feel we have to make room for 1/2P on the wing. For me North/Cuthbert/Visser/Zebo/Bow/Maitland etc are all much better wingers and we would be silly to lose one of their talents and end up with an unbalanced back 3.

So keep your best players in their best positions – in such a short space of time the Lions would take a big risk by doing anything else.

Completely agree with this. If 1/2p misses out on 15 then he misses out on a place in the team IMO. No need to create a new place for him. He's not that good! However, I've mentioned it a few times, and not many people have discussed it, but the gameplan is the biggie for me. Watch Halfpenny for the Blues: he's a much more potent and attacking threat from 15 when he joins the line and makes great line breaks. Why? Different game plan. So, is Hogg a better attacker because he just is, or because he's allowed to? Hard to answer. I just know that Halfpenny and Shaun Edwards have both talked about the plan being for Halfpenny not to join the line and to stay back in case of turnover, and to kick everything long and in field in his own half, so taking the decision to run out of his hands. The question therefore is whether you think a) Gatland will suddenly change from his style of plan (he should IMO, but will he do it just because I think it?!), and b) will Hogg flourish under this sort of game plan? Will he be happy to follow those sort of orders? Will he star as a defensive 15 if that's the role Gatland seeks? If not, and if that is evident in the warm up games, then Gatland may plump for someone he knows will stick to the plan.

The plan is null and void since it doesn't work against Australia.

Well in fairness, it almost worked in three of the four Tests we played against them last year.

N.B. I think we do need a change in strategy with the Lions to really test the Wallabies.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Griff wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:I personally don’t think 1/2P should be put on the wing – I think it should be a straight fight between him and Hogg (or whoever is picked) for the 15 shirt. 1/2P is a fantastic fullback but we have much better wingers and I think it would be losing some of or most potent attacking weapons if we feel we have to make room for 1/2P on the wing. For me North/Cuthbert/Visser/Zebo/Bow/Maitland etc are all much better wingers and we would be silly to lose one of their talents and end up with an unbalanced back 3.

So keep your best players in their best positions – in such a short space of time the Lions would take a big risk by doing anything else.

Completely agree with this. If 1/2p misses out on 15 then he misses out on a place in the team IMO. No need to create a new place for him. He's not that good! However, I've mentioned it a few times, and not many people have discussed it, but the gameplan is the biggie for me. Watch Halfpenny for the Blues: he's a much more potent and attacking threat from 15 when he joins the line and makes great line breaks. Why? Different game plan. So, is Hogg a better attacker because he just is, or because he's allowed to? Hard to answer. I just know that Halfpenny and Shaun Edwards have both talked about the plan being for Halfpenny not to join the line and to stay back in case of turnover, and to kick everything long and in field in his own half, so taking the decision to run out of his hands. The question therefore is whether you think a) Gatland will suddenly change from his style of plan (he should IMO, but will he do it just because I think it?!), and b) will Hogg flourish under this sort of game plan? Will he be happy to follow those sort of orders? Will he star as a defensive 15 if that's the role Gatland seeks? If not, and if that is evident in the warm up games, then Gatland may plump for someone he knows will stick to the plan.

The plan is null and void since it doesn't work against Australia.

But that's not the point Radge. We're not choosing the gameplan on 606v2. We're just guessing who Gatland will choose. I agree that the gameplan is rubbish. I've been suggesting a change to it for 5 years. However, what makes you think that Gatland, an experienced club and international coach, will suddenly tear up his way of coaching and the way his teams play for a few weeks down under? It's more likely he'll stick to what he knows best, given he's also got the difficult task of getting unfamiliar players to bond and gel. I hope he doesn't stick to it, but he's not going to become a different man overnight. So, who does he pick if he keeps to his gameplan?

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Griff wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:I personally don’t think 1/2P should be put on the wing – I think it should be a straight fight between him and Hogg (or whoever is picked) for the 15 shirt. 1/2P is a fantastic fullback but we have much better wingers and I think it would be losing some of or most potent attacking weapons if we feel we have to make room for 1/2P on the wing. For me North/Cuthbert/Visser/Zebo/Bow/Maitland etc are all much better wingers and we would be silly to lose one of their talents and end up with an unbalanced back 3.

So keep your best players in their best positions – in such a short space of time the Lions would take a big risk by doing anything else.

Completely agree with this. If 1/2p misses out on 15 then he misses out on a place in the team IMO. No need to create a new place for him. He's not that good! However, I've mentioned it a few times, and not many people have discussed it, but the gameplan is the biggie for me. Watch Halfpenny for the Blues: he's a much more potent and attacking threat from 15 when he joins the line and makes great line breaks. Why? Different game plan. So, is Hogg a better attacker because he just is, or because he's allowed to? Hard to answer. I just know that Halfpenny and Shaun Edwards have both talked about the plan being for Halfpenny not to join the line and to stay back in case of turnover, and to kick everything long and in field in his own half, so taking the decision to run out of his hands. The question therefore is whether you think a) Gatland will suddenly change from his style of plan (he should IMO, but will he do it just because I think it?!), and b) will Hogg flourish under this sort of game plan? Will he be happy to follow those sort of orders? Will he star as a defensive 15 if that's the role Gatland seeks? If not, and if that is evident in the warm up games, then Gatland may plump for someone he knows will stick to the plan.

The plan is null and void since it doesn't work against Australia.

In my view you need to go back to 2009. The Lions had a very strong pack, they were very physical and when you take the 3rd test in consideration, they pummeled the
boks up front, that allowed momentum ball which allowed them to go wide.

Defensivley the Lions will also be strong, if you think of the following back line (Just a suggestion)

9. Youngs/Murray
10. Sexton
11. North
12. JD
13. Tuilagi
14. Cuthbert (Visser is technically deficiant in defence) or Maitland
15. Halfpenny.

That backline has huge strike runners in Tuilagi, North and Cuthbert. It also makes sense to look at combinations, Murray and Sexton knows each other well, the Welsh back three knows wach other well. You might argue Barret and Tuilagi will be a good combination as defensively they are also very strong.

With Gatland in mind, would he need a full back to join the line?

Maybe as a surprise once or twice, but e would need a fullback that is positionally sound, safe under the ball and can kick the leather off it when necessary.

So when it comes to brass tax, I would think combinations will work best as these players know each other very well, their defesive organisation will run smoothly, their plays are easier to execute etc.

I know for a fact that one of the reasons Glasgow has scored a bucketload of tries this season is because Maitland, Hogg and DTH have been given free reign to play what's in front of them and carte blanche to give it a crack if a break is on, regardless of where on the pitch it starts from.

There should be a different thread on Lions strategy, which is a big topic all by itself.

I can't help but think that Wales have gotten most of their tries against Australia through guile rather than power. Halfpenny, Shane Williams in the RWC and JD2 providing the bulk of the scores while North and Cuthbert don't pose as many problems as the quicker more elusive guys.

I agree George, but unfortunately we're not the Lions strategists for the tour. We're relying on Gatland to change his ways and relax his attitude for a few weeks, to tear up his coaching manual and let the players do what to they want. That would be great. But as a man renowned for being stubborn, it may not happen.

If Gatland makes the Lions play like Wales I don’t think we’ll win - unless he picks the entire Welsh 15. I don’t think he will make the Lions play like Wales – I think he will take parts of their strategy, but adapt it to fit with the best players at his disposal.

Generally the Lions tactics have never been massively complicated – there is so little time to hone tactics – that players tend to have more free reign to play what is in front of them.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Well in fairness, it almost worked in three of the four Tests we played against them last year.

N.B. I think we do need a change in strategy with the Lions to really test the Wallabies.

This is the point that people keep missing. The tactics were fine. It isn't Gatland's tactic I'm sure to kick the ball with the clock pretty much dead. I'm sure it isn't Gatland's tactics to drop a maul illegally.

With regards to Halfpenny and Hogg, I've already said that the best player will win the shirt. Gatland will likely favour Halfpenny at the moment, but then obviously Hogg will get plenty of chances. I really don't see the need for this alleged debate. This thread should have been wrapped up ages ago.

Risca Rev wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Well in fairness, it almost worked in three of the four Tests we played against them last year.

N.B. I think we do need a change in strategy with the Lions to really test the Wallabies.

This is the point that people keep missing. The tactics were fine. It isn't Gatland's tactic I'm sure to kick the ball with the clock pretty much dead. I'm sure it isn't Gatland's tactics to drop a maul illegally.

With regards to Halfpenny and Hogg, I've already said that the best player will win the shirt. Gatland will likely favour Halfpenny at the moment, but then obviously Hogg will get plenty of chances. I really don't see the need for this alleged debate. This thread should have been wrapped up ages ago.

+1