Props for second test

Who are likely to be the props starting and bench ?

The easy one, Jones at TH with Cole on the bench.

The harder one, if Corbs is ruled out, is LH. If Grant goes well tomorrow he could, as Corbs did, force his way ahead of Mako on the grounds of being a better scrummager. However he will have to perform a darn sight better than he has in his cameos so far. A startying role against Rebels gives him that chance.


As an aside, one of the quoted reasons for Matt Stevens inclusion was his ability to cover both sides with equal aplomb

I agree that Grant needs a bit game tomorrow. However packing down with Hibberd and Cole means he has a better chance of being in a dominant scrum instead of playing alongside Best ( in terrible form all season) and fatty Stevens ( not had any kind of form for how long?).
Worried about Cole though he hasnt looked anywhere near his best on this tour. Hope he perks up tomorrow.

LondonTiger wrote:The easy one, Jones at TH with Cole on the bench.

The harder one, if Corbs is ruled out, is LH. If Grant goes well tomorrow he could, as Corbs did, force his way ahead of Mako on the grounds of being a better scrummager. However he will have to perform a darn sight better than he has in his cameos so far. A startying role against Rebels gives him that chance.


As an aside, one of the quoted reasons for Matt Stevens inclusion was his ability to cover both sides with equal aplomb

With Vunipola withdrawn from the squad for tomorrow I'd be very surprised if it happened.

sensisball wrote:I agree that Grant needs a bit game tomorrow. However packing down with Hibberd and Cole means he has a better chance of being in a dominant scrum instead of playing alongside Best ( in terrible form all season) and fatty Stevens ( not had any kind of form for how long?).
Worried about Cole though he hasnt looked anywhere near his best on this tour. Hope he perks up tomorrow.

Best hasn't been 'in terrible form all season'. You don't have to lie like that to make a point. Stevens is the weak link.

Cole should not be anywhere near the test team, as soon as he came on, on Saturday our scrum went to pot, he also nearly cost us the game giving away two penalty's at the scrum in the last ten minutes, it just goes to show, that there is not a tighthead in Adam Jones's league in Britain and Ireland at the moment.

LordDowlais wrote:Cole should not be anywhere near the test team, as soon as he came on, on Saturday our scrum went to pot, he also nearly cost us the game giving away two penalty's at the scrum in the last ten minutes, it just goes to show, that there is not a tighthead in Adam Jones's league in Britain and Ireland at the moment.

And unfortunately even Adam is becoming less Adam as the years tick by as in he isn't getting younger.  And he'll be pushed to the edges of his endurance again by the Aussies in the next game as they know if he comes off, the scrum is liable to suffer.

LordDowlais wrote:Cole should not be anywhere near the test team, as soon as he came on, on Saturday our scrum went to pot, he also nearly cost us the game giving away two penalty's at the scrum in the last ten minutes, it just goes to show, that there is not a tighthead in Adam Jones's league in Britain and Ireland at the moment.

As was said above, you do not need to lie to make your point. Vunipola was blamed by the ref for one penalty, and the last one where struggled to get the ball back in the scrum was awarded generically against the pack. Cole was not great , I accept that, but your false assertions merely make you look like someone with a vendetta.

Sorry JmD i was exageratting for effect with regard to Best's form. It was good until around January and was then poor in the 6N's and he wasnt back to his top form for Ulster's run in the Heino and Rabo. I also acknowledge that injuries to lineout specialists undoubtedly contributed to a poor end to his international and domestic season.
i just hope that Grant shows the coaches what he can do on tuesday and makes a case for selection for Saturday.

LondonTiger wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Cole should not be anywhere near the test team, as soon as he came on, on Saturday our scrum went to pot, he also nearly cost us the game giving away two penalty's at the scrum in the last ten minutes, it just goes to show, that there is not a tighthead in Adam Jones's league in Britain and Ireland at the moment.

As was said above, you do not need to lie to make your point. Vunipola was blamed by the ref for one penalty, and the last one where struggled to get the ball back in the scrum was awarded generically against the pack. Cole was not great , I accept that, but your false assertions merely make you look like someone with a vendetta.

Behave, there is no vendetta here, I am just saying it as I saw it, Adam Jones went off and the scrum went to pot, how surprising though that a Tigers fan should come here and defend him to the hilt like this, instead of looking at him through your Leicester tinted glasses, just admit, that he is not the great scrummager that you seem to think he is.

So why target Cole if as you say the scrum went to pot? Will you admit that Hibbard comming on may have contributed? Or was it all Coles fault?

wrfc1980 wrote:So why target Cole if as you say the scrum went to pot? Will you admit that Hibbard comming on may have contributed? Or was it all Coles fault?

Hibbard was not scrummaging illeagally like Cole was, look I am not getting into a Welsh/English peeing match over this, a tightheads job is to anchor the scrum, as soon as Adam went off the scrum was a mess.

The whole front 5 have a job in the scrum. Cole wasn't named by the ref as the person ilegally scrummaging. The Aussies got the shunt on so the WHOLE of the tight 5 were partially responsible. Why you have chosen to pin the blame on Cole I do not know.

It was when the props were replaced the scrum started to suffer. Hibbard for Youngs later on didn't improve matters. I'd be staggered if the props are swapped as early next week.

Corbisiero is probably a more significant loss than POC, given that we have decent back-up 2nd rows.

Because it is a tightheads job to be the unmovable rock in the scrum, the anchor that does not get pushed about, all a tighthead can see in the scrum is the floor, so all he can do is stand fast and do not budge an inch, you have to be very, very strong to be a tighthead, this is why it is such a coveted position, and that a godd tighthead can name his own price, if you do not have a decent tighthead than the whole scrum is doomed.

May also be down to the quality of the Oz replacements too. Cole isnt at his best but....

Another reason - POC might also have been struggling a little by that point, what with the broken arm and everything

Hopefully Grant will show what he can do

he is a strong Scrummager as well, so if he hits his form, will be little loss over Corbs

Depends how Corbs is, exactly. I don't think that it's fair or correct for anyone to be playing who is not 100%.

Adam only managed 50 minutes in the first test and made only 2 tackles, so I hope that it was just that he was feeling off colour because we'll need him to do more this time around. Makes me nervous to think that Gats may have pre-planned substitutions regardless of how anyone is playing.

lostinwales wrote:May also be down to the quality of the Oz replacements too. Cole isnt at his best but....

Another reason - POC might also have been struggling a little by that point, what with the broken arm and everything

Does anyone know how long he played with a fractured arm?

I don't think we lost much through Cole, more good Aussie scrummaging than Coles ineffectiveness. They targeted his bind on Hibbard well in one scrum.

They picked that up from the six nations.

We had changed locks too so that may have been a factor.

5/8 forwards is just too many changes for me

SecretFly wrote:

lostinwales wrote:May also be down to the quality of the Oz replacements too. Cole isnt at his best but....

Another reason - POC might also have been struggling a little by that point, what with the broken arm and everything

Does anyone know how long he played with a fractured arm?

It happened after 73-74 minutes, their number 8 drove him off the ball and his head must have fractured his arm.

May explain some of the difficulties experienced in the scrum in the last few minutes.

2nd row changes may also have impacted on the poor scrumming 2nd half.
I don't think that all the blame can be placed on either Cole or Vaunipola - scrumming is a whole tight 5 affair.

Perhaps Parling coming on for POC made a bigger impact than the replacement props.

Except Parling came on for AWJ, just before POC got injured. The last few scrums, POC must have been trying to bind and push with a fractured arm - there is surely only so much that adrenalin can do!

True Jelly - in that case the changes and injuries in 2nd row definitely impacted on the overall scrum performance.
There is no doubt that Vaunipola is technically weaker scrummager than Corbisiero (its the same for England).
Cole was disappointing but his opponent was different so its hard to compare to A.Jones, who is still 1st choice for test start.

Not the whole story and only what I recall, but at on one scrum, Cole decided to straighten his body, and put his feet back, which one would perhaps only do when you have the oppo on the run and can just walk them back.  So crucially, his feet were not under his body where they needed to be, and partly due to the turf, he lost his grip on ground.

The blindside (who happened to be Lydiate at that point, not his fault) lost the all-important derriere to push against, and all was lost.  At that time, I think the Lions loosehead side was going forward.

I think there were different problems in different scrums, and from low-level experience, that's the beauty of front-row - we can all follow the predictions about the oppo (e.g. Aussie) scrum but from day-to-day and scrum-to-scrum, things change, and the key is surely to adapt ?  Part of the story may be that Cole failed to do this.

With coaches such as Gatland and Rowntree, hopefully these issues can be identified, predicted and resolved.

One tends to watch one's own team more than the oppo, but as an Englishman, I am more and more impressed by Adam Jones, not only in his scrummaging, but his often unseen contributions throughout the game e.g. rucking, tackles, as a link man or picking up loose ball around the breakdown.

These days it seems there is a compulsion to use all your 23, but I suppose the replacements need to be coached/prepared to do all the job when they come on, or there's no point.

If Corbs is out and Grant performs well tomorrow it has to be him. Adam Jones can dot the damage himself, we just need a loosehead who can hole there own and scrummage straight whilst Adam does his job. As good as Mako has been on this tour, he is not that prop.
For me Front Row should be:
1. Grant
2. Youngs
3. Adam
Along with Halfpenny and Adam, youngs would be first n my team sheet,  he has impressed me so much this tour, starting to become a world class player

Paul James would be very useful right now...

James was a bit of a penalty machine for Bath this season, he conceded 27 penalties in 19 games.  Vunipola conceded 13 in 17 games by comparison, even the league's usual penalty champion Tim Payne only managed 14 in 15 games.

markb wrote:James was a bit of a penalty machine for Bath this season, he conceded 27 penalties in 19 games.  Vunipola conceded 13 in 17 games by comparison, even the league's usual penalty champion Tim Payne only managed 14 in 15 games.

Wow, he doesn't concede that many for Wales, or previously at the Ospreys..!

If Corbs is out then the RAF should be asked to airlift Sheridan from France ASAP, with mid flight refuelling and anything else needed to ensure we have a least one scrummaging lossehead. Realy impressed with Corbs but its still a real blow to have lost our two best looseheads at the beggining of the tour.

Vunipola may not be the most destructive loose-head, but he's not a liability in the scrum and his all-round play on this tour surely warrants a place in the starting line-up if Corbisiero isn't fit.

It also doesn't hurt to have a stronger scrummager on the bench. If Vunipola hits his straps you can keep Grant on the bench, but if he starts to tire and the scrum looks like it may suffer you can bring on someone who can shore up that area.

Newsilure wrote:If Corbs is out then the RAF should be asked to airlift Sheridan from France ASAP, with mid flight refuelling and anything else needed to ensure we have a least one scrummaging lossehead. Realy impressed with Corbs but its still a real blow to have lost our two best looseheads at the beggining of the tour.

No..!

Sheridan was not the answer for England he wasn't the answer for the lions in 09 either, he got a pasting from John Smit, a hooker converted to TH.

Sheridan had a great season in the scrum at Toulon, though this was a lot more to do with the seven other blokes in the scrum than any individual ability. Other than scrummaging he did bugger all.

Grant deserves his chance tomorrow to prove that he is the prop he showed he was all last season, playing in a decent front row will do that.

If not and worse case scenario we somehow lose the second test, then James is the first bloke the RAF should be hauling to Oz..!

maestegmafia wrote:

Newsilure wrote:If Corbs is out then the RAF should be asked to airlift Sheridan from France ASAP, with mid flight refuelling and anything else needed to ensure we have a least one scrummaging lossehead. Realy impressed with Corbs but its still a real blow to have lost our two best looseheads at the beggining of the tour.

No..!

Sheridan was not the answer for England he wasn't the answer for the lions in 09 either, he got a pasting from John Smit, a hooker converted to TH.

Sheridan had a great season in the scrum at Toulon, though this was a lot more to do with the seven other blokes in the scrum than any individual ability. Other than scrummaging he did bugger all.

Grant deserves his chance tomorrow to prove that he is the prop he showed he was all last season, playing in a decent front row will do that.

If not and worse case scenario we somehow lose the second test, then James is the first bloke the RAF should be hauling to Oz..!

Spot on, best call up to have made would have been Paul James really. David Kilcoyne wouldn't have been a bad call either, better than Court. Let's be honest in the Heineken cup Toulon didn't really come up against a dominant scrum until thy played Leicester Tigesr and Clermont. Andrew had a very tuff time against Cole in the semi's and look what Slipper did to Cole when they clashed, Cole got his head shoved up his @rse.

Grant is more than capable of doing the job for the Test Team, he's been up to every challenge he's faced this year.  Played pretty much every top tier nation in the past 12 months and been one of our most consistent performers.

Didn't think he had a bad game against Brumbies, with a stronger tight-head I think the scrum would have been far more dominant.

May not do the flashy things Vunipola is capable of but he'd do the nitty gritty that's required.  Wil hit rucks, make tackles, hold his end up in the scrum and graft.

Hopefully a strong performance tomorrow can put him in the mix.

Newsilure wrote:If Corbs is out then the RAF should be asked to airlift Sheridan from France ASAP, with mid flight refuelling and anything else needed to ensure we have a least one scrummaging lossehead. Realy impressed with Corbs but its still a real blow to have lost our two best looseheads at the beggining of the tour.

Matt Dunning said the same recently and

http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/sport/10487127.Andrew_Sheridan_should_have_had_Lions_call_____Graham_Price/

But Sheridan effectively ruled himself out. Vunipola will start & hopefully do a good job.