Who should be the LH Props for the 3rd Test ?

by alive555 Tue 02 Jul 2013, 12:58 pm

Assuming Corbs is fit

by Tattie Scones RRN Tue 02 Jul 2013, 1:07 pm

Grant or Corbs to start/other on the bench.

What WILL happen is a not 100% Corbs will start with Vunipola on the bench.

by SecretFly Tue 02 Jul 2013, 1:09 pm

Whichever combination plays best on the day Wink

How do we predict that, given how close this series is to date and nobody is really shooting-from-the-hip form wise?

Grant (because a lot of people seem to think he's the Messiah) first. Corbs on the bench. And if the Messiah proves he isn't then.......... I'm afraid he'll quickly get promoted to Devil in the after-show party here at 606 Wink

by Cyril Tue 02 Jul 2013, 1:12 pm

Corbs to start if fit. Vunipola on bench.

If Corbs isn't fit then Vunipola to start.

I guess in the latter case we'll have to call up a loosehead for the bench.

Wink

by cakeordeath Tue 02 Jul 2013, 1:28 pm

Why is everyone forgetting about Stevens
Run

by WELL-PAST-IT Tue 02 Jul 2013, 1:42 pm

Not forgotten, just ignored.

The other thing to remember is that Poite is reffing on Saturday; a NH ref. Hopefully he will allow the scrummage and penalise the early hit as well as allowing the Lions to contest the ball in the tackle, unlike the SH refs we have had so far. The side needs to be picked with this in mind.

by Cyril Tue 02 Jul 2013, 1:43 pm

cakeordeath wrote:Why is everyone forgetting about Stevens

'cos Stevens will be tighthead...

by GunsGerms Tue 02 Jul 2013, 1:45 pm

Everyone knows that when Poite refs the scrum going forward regardless of dirty tactics is the team that gets the penalties. Therefore, Hibbard, Jones and Corb will be selected.

by RuggerRadge2611 Tue 02 Jul 2013, 2:20 pm

I think Grant deserves a chance. He is the middle ground between Corbs and Vinapola.

He also has dealt well with plenty of top class tightheads recently.

by **Ozzy3213** Tue 02 Jul 2013, 2:35 pm

Tom Court!

by The Great Aukster Tue 02 Jul 2013, 2:47 pm

Corbisero had very little rugby when he was called up and broke down in the first test. Now with no rugby in between all the pressure is on him to start - that's asking for injury damage.

by R!skysports Tue 02 Jul 2013, 3:10 pm

I would go Corbs and Grant on the bench

for all his impact in the loose talk, Vino has not really delivered that much go forward in the loose during the test

yes he tackled well, but all the props do that

The other two are stronger scrummers

by maestegmafia Tue 02 Jul 2013, 3:10 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I think Grant deserves a chance. He is the middle ground between Corbs and Vinapola.

He also has dealt well with plenty of top class tightheads recently.

Aye

He was superb against Adam Jones for Scotland and Glasgow this year...! I do agree that Corbisiero is the man to go with though. He is a superb scrummager, shame he struggles so much with injuries.

by nathan Tue 02 Jul 2013, 3:11 pm

if corbs isn't fit I prey to god they select grant. don't think I can put up with another weeks moaning. Wink

by nathan Tue 02 Jul 2013, 3:13 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I think Grant deserves a chance. He is the middle ground between Corbs and Vinapola.

He also has dealt well with plenty of top class tightheads recently.

Aye

He was superb against Adam Jones for Scotland and Glasgow this year...! I do agree that Corbisiero is the man to go with though. He is a superb scrummager, shame he struggles so much with injuries.

I kind of hope that irish didn't look after him properly and we'll see a lot less injuries now he's moved on and it isn't that he's just injury prone.

by bluestonevedder Tue 02 Jul 2013, 3:17 pm

If he is fully fit, I wouldn't hesitate to start Corbs. He is such a strong scrummager, but also showed up really well in the first test. However, as Great Aukster said, if he isn't completely fit, it's asking for trouble. Vunipola is a 'super-sub', but like someone above said, he hasn't really shown his prowess in the loose in either of the tests yet. Grant's unlucky for me, as he's certainly one of the form LH in the NH this season, but he hasn't really had a chance to show it this tour. He's started one test?

My props would be Corbs starting and Vunipola benched.

If Corbs isn't fit, Grant to start and Vunipola benched.

Either way, I think Vunipola coming off the bench for the final 20 as opposed to starting, is the right call.

by RuggerRadge2611 Tue 02 Jul 2013, 3:25 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I think Grant deserves a chance. He is the middle ground between Corbs and Vinapola.

He also has dealt well with plenty of top class tightheads recently.

Aye

He was superb against Adam Jones for Scotland and Glasgow this year...! I do agree that Corbisiero is the man to go with though. He is a superb scrummager, shame he struggles so much with injuries.

To be fair, he fought Jones to a draw at Scotstoun, I mean Rolland binned them both. As for the game at Murrayfield Joubert never gave us a chance.

We went early we were penalized we went late, we were penalized we went on engage we were penalized.

by SecretFly Tue 02 Jul 2013, 3:33 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote: As for the game at Murrayfield Joubert never gave us a chance.

We went early we were penalized we went late, we were penalized we went on engage we were penalized.

Same problem with "Use it!". You hear the ref say "Use it!" and you know you have at least 7 or so seconds left before you're pinged.....

BUT....... refs are very vague about when they give the initial "Use it!" command. Sometimes a scrumhalf has just barely touched the ball and he's warned, other times they've already had seven seconds lulling there before the ref thinks of issuing the command.

Two areas that are much too susceptible to the whims of a pedantic ref.

by RuggerRadge2611 Tue 02 Jul 2013, 3:45 pm

Very interesting read...

By Alan Dymock

http://www.rugbyworld.com/news/blogs/lions-2013-jilted-or-not-jocks-are-jaded/

IF SELECTION does not fall favourably for the few, the 2013 tour could be the first time since 1930 that a Scot has not received a Test cap for the British and Irish Lions.

Conspiracy theories aside, it is worth noting that Scottish loose-head prop Ryan Grant sat on the bench for 80 minutes during the second Test, waiting for a chance to replace Mako Vunipola. The chance never came.

It is very likely that nationality has nothing to do with this choice. However, what can be stated is that Warren Gatland and Graham Rowntree did not trust Grant when it mattered. Effectively they said on Saturday that a fatigued Vunipola is more valuable than a fresh Grant when a Test result is in the balance.

If you look for context, Grant is a prop who had started every game in the Six Nations for Scotland, defeating Ireland and Italy. He had propped for Scotland when they beat Australia last summer. He was picked in the RaboDirect Pro12 team of the year and at the end of last season troubled Test shoe-in Adam Jones when Glasgow Warriors played the Ospreys.

Of course, your last year can mean nothing when under pressure, and certainly when troubles pile-up it is easy to resort to what you know. However, keeping Vunipola on the field for 80 minutes was a gigantic risk by the Lions management.
In the interest of balance it must be pointed out that tactically, had the coaches indeed mistrusted Grant, that swapping Vunipola for Dan Cole – a player with more than enough loose-head experience – would have been a sufficient move to get the referee onside.

Neither substitute replaced Vunipola, though. Yes the scrums did improve while the Saracen was still on the park, however this did not remove the risk. Had a scrum gone down in Lions territory in the second half the referee could have just as easily pinged Vunipola for going down, reverting to the decisions he made in the first quarter when Vunipola was twice held responsible for the wonky set-piece. There is just no way of predicting many referees, particularly one like Craig Joubert with a track record of muddling his scrums. The gamble paid off in some tiny way, but it was still a gamble and one that was not wholly necessary.

There is still time for Gatland to shake up his bench and include a second row, which in theory gives Richie Gray a 50/50 chance of making the team, running in competition with Ian Evans. However, should he not, it is almost guaranteed that Alex Corbisiero will return to the Lions starting team, a reward for his fine showing in the first Test. If Vunipola drops out of the squad completely after being backed for a whole game, the selectors will lose face. Is that a risk worth taking so close to the vital decider?

Tribalism will be the accusation levelled at the many Scots perplexed by Grant’s stint on the bench. For some this will be true. Yet the inconsistency in tactics is more worrying, for fans from all four Unions. All will be forgiven should the Lions win the series, but a few individuals will still feel aggrieved having missed out because one or two men do not know them as well as others. Grant is certainly feeling jaded after the fact, replying to a tweet from Scotland teammate Ruaridh Jackson about not being able to wait for a chance to get away from it all with, “You and me both brother!"

As for Scotland, any perceived slight would have to be acted upon positively. If a lazy stereotype of Scottish inferiority does indeed exist it must be eradicated. That comes through action, and if players do not get the opportunity to do that on the Lions stage, the clubs and national side must step up.

After the 1983 Lions tour to New Zealand, several Scots returned feeling spurned and unfairly treated. They went on to win the following Five Nations Championship. Now, to expect Scotland to win the next Six Nations is unrealistic. Nonetheless, they will have to back up the defeat of Ireland and finally overcome Wales and England to gain any respect.
Mind you, before all that, they have the chance to protect their Hopetoun Cup against Australia in the upcoming Autumn Internationals. If they beat them again, that would certainly send out a message to those not able to see Scotland’s finest during the summer Tests. That would be the positive reaction.

In international rugby there is no time to feel sorry for yourselves.

by ScarletSpiderman Tue 02 Jul 2013, 3:46 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I think Grant deserves a chance. He is the middle ground between Corbs and Vinapola.

He also has dealt well with plenty of top class tightheads recently.

Aye

He was superb against Adam Jones for Scotland and Glasgow this year...! I do agree that Corbisiero is the man to go with though. He is a superb scrummager, shame he struggles so much with injuries.

To be fair, he fought Jones to a draw at Scotstoun, I mean Rolland binned them both. As for the game at Murrayfield Joubert never gave us a chance.

We went early we were penalized we went late, we were penalized we went on engage we were penalized.

He should have only binned Jones, but that would have looked bad.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 02 Jul 2013, 4:28 pm

SecretFly wrote:Whichever combination plays best on the day

How do we predict that, given how close this series is to date and nobody is really shooting-from-the-hip form wise?

Grant (because a lot of people seem to think he's the Messiah) first. Corbs on the bench. And if the Messiah proves he isn't then.......... I'm afraid he'll quickly get promoted to Devil in the after-show party here at 606

Oh dear, Fly, all Scottish posters know that Grant is not the Messiah angel

- that is Mark Bennett. He is also the new BOD

Braveheart

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 02 Jul 2013, 4:32 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Very interesting read...

By Alan Dymock

http://www.rugbyworld.com/news/blogs/lions-2013-jilted-or-not-jocks-are-jaded/

IF SELECTION does not fall favourably for the few, the 2013 tour could be the first time since 1930 that a Scot has not received a Test cap for the British and Irish Lions.

Conspiracy theories aside, it is worth noting that Scottish loose-head prop Ryan Grant sat on the bench for 80 minutes during the second Test, waiting for a chance to replace Mako Vunipola. The chance never came.

It is very likely that nationality has nothing to do with this choice. However, what can be stated is that Warren Gatland and Graham Rowntree did not trust Grant when it mattered. Effectively they said on Saturday that a fatigued Vunipola is more valuable than a fresh Grant when a Test result is in the balance.

If you look for context, Grant is a prop who had started every game in the Six Nations for Scotland, defeating Ireland and Italy. He had propped for Scotland when they beat Australia last summer. He was picked in the RaboDirect Pro12 team of the year and at the end of last season troubled Test shoe-in Adam Jones when Glasgow Warriors played the Ospreys.

Of course, your last year can mean nothing when under pressure, and certainly when troubles pile-up it is easy to resort to what you know. However, keeping Vunipola on the field for 80 minutes was a gigantic risk by the Lions management.
In the interest of balance it must be pointed out that tactically, had the coaches indeed mistrusted Grant, that swapping Vunipola for Dan Cole – a player with more than enough loose-head experience – would have been a sufficient move to get the referee onside.

Neither substitute replaced Vunipola, though. Yes the scrums did improve while the Saracen was still on the park, however this did not remove the risk. Had a scrum gone down in Lions territory in the second half the referee could have just as easily pinged Vunipola for going down, reverting to the decisions he made in the first quarter when Vunipola was twice held responsible for the wonky set-piece. There is just no way of predicting many referees, particularly one like Craig Joubert with a track record of muddling his scrums. The gamble paid off in some tiny way, but it was still a gamble and one that was not wholly necessary.

There is still time for Gatland to shake up his bench and include a second row, which in theory gives Richie Gray a 50/50 chance of making the team, running in competition with Ian Evans. However, should he not, it is almost guaranteed that Alex Corbisiero will return to the Lions starting team, a reward for his fine showing in the first Test. If Vunipola drops out of the squad completely after being backed for a whole game, the selectors will lose face. Is that a risk worth taking so close to the vital decider?

Tribalism will be the accusation levelled at the many Scots perplexed by Grant’s stint on the bench. For some this will be true. Yet the inconsistency in tactics is more worrying, for fans from all four Unions. All will be forgiven should the Lions win the series, but a few individuals will still feel aggrieved having missed out because one or two men do not know them as well as others. Grant is certainly feeling jaded after the fact, replying to a tweet from Scotland teammate Ruaridh Jackson about not being able to wait for a chance to get away from it all with, “You and me both brother!"

As for Scotland, any perceived slight would have to be acted upon positively. If a lazy stereotype of Scottish inferiority does indeed exist it must be eradicated. That comes through action, and if players do not get the opportunity to do that on the Lions stage, the clubs and national side must step up.

After the 1983 Lions tour to New Zealand, several Scots returned feeling spurned and unfairly treated. They went on to win the following Five Nations Championship. Now, to expect Scotland to win the next Six Nations is unrealistic. Nonetheless, they will have to back up the defeat of Ireland and finally overcome Wales and England to gain any respect.
Mind you, before all that, they have the chance to protect their Hopetoun Cup against Australia in the upcoming Autumn Internationals. If they beat them again, that would certainly send out a message to those not able to see Scotland’s finest during the summer Tests. That would be the positive reaction.

In international rugby there is no time to feel sorry for yourselves.

Bra-feicin-vo clap

by LordDowlais Tue 02 Jul 2013, 4:44 pm

GunsGerms wrote:Everyone knows that when Poite refs the scrum going forward regardless of dirty tactics is the team that gets the penalties. Therefore, Hibbard, Jones and Corb will be selected.

+1, also, Gatland must let Adam Jones play for a bit longer as Dan Cole cannot scrummage as good as him.

by **LondonTiger** Tue 02 Jul 2013, 4:49 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:Everyone knows that when Poite refs the scrum going forward regardless of dirty tactics is the team that gets the penalties. Therefore, Hibbard, Jones and Corb will be selected.

+1, also, Gatland must let Adam Jones play for a bit longer as Dan Cole cannot scrummage as good as him.

While that may be true, the way the Lions demolished a couple of Aussie scrums once Hibbard and Cole came on, suggests a rested Cole is better than a tired Jones.

by Guest Tue 02 Jul 2013, 4:57 pm

Bit selective of that blokey from his quoting of Jackson mind. Guess people can skew anything to fit their agenda

"@ruaridh_jackson: So happy to be in Thailand. Loving life chilling with the girls, looking forward to @ryangrant85 getting here though http://t.co/23Im1iLpR6"

Getting away from it all eh?

by RuggerRadge2611 Tue 02 Jul 2013, 4:57 pm

I think we should also recognise that the Lock combination wasn't great either.

we need some bigger units in the boiler room to help the front row and the lineout.

by bluestonevedder Tue 02 Jul 2013, 5:02 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I think we should also recognise that the Lock combination wasn't great either.

we need some bigger units in the boiler room to help the front row and the lineout.

Agree with this. We did just seem underpowered, especially in the tight exchanges.

I thought AWJ had a decent game, and Parling ran the lineout very well, but wasn't his usual self in the loose. Who would you drop/bring in?

by RuggerRadge2611 Tue 02 Jul 2013, 5:08 pm

I would start Gray and Evans and bring AWJ on for the last quarter.

by R!skysports Tue 02 Jul 2013, 5:10 pm

While this is not a slight on Parling he was brought in primarily to run the line out

That did not improve in the second test (not saying it is his fault, just our line outs have been a weakness) is it not time to say, lets get the best second row across all aspects of the game in the line up.

We may lose 5% in line out, but gain 5% in the scrum, break down, the loose and general play around the pitch?

by Guest Tue 02 Jul 2013, 5:15 pm

AWJ and Gray for me. I think I'd settle for a perceived lineout weakness rather than a scrum one.

A front five of Corbs, Youngs, Jones, AWJ and Gray has a bit more firepower than last week.

by **LondonTiger** Tue 02 Jul 2013, 5:23 pm

Risca Rev wrote:AWJ and Gray for me. I think I'd settle for a perceived lineout weakness rather than a scrum one.

A front five of Corbs, Youngs, Jones, AWJ and Gray has a bit more firepower than last week.

I would probably start with Hibbard and really go for them in the scrum. Whilst not a weak scrummager, TomYoungs does not have that same intimidating physicality of Hibbard(if you can be intimidated by someone who looks like they drive a Suzuki Vitara Very Happy

)

by flyhalffactory Tue 02 Jul 2013, 6:14 pm

Unless Grant is carrying an injury or is so far off form I cannae understand why Grant wasn't brought on for an absolutely knackered Mako.

I can't believe after the world and his dog have asked the for an explanation why, that Mr Stubborn Fatman or his henchman Growler Rowntree haven't provided reasons why Grant, or Farrell for that matter (Sexton didn't have the best of games in all honesty) didn't have some gametime. There has been such a furore now that it might be unfair to place Grant under the microscope hence I would start Corbs and bring on Grant around 55 mins. I believe we are so poor at Hooker I would even get a certain Ms Debbie D Dallas on the plane for Saturday however that's as daft as asking Shane Williams to make a cameo role in Hong Kong (what's that Mum? we actually did ask lil Shane to play a year after he retired!, Mum please keep off the house sherry....)

For me I would select if fit

1 Corbs
2 Hibbard
3 Jones

Bench: Grant, Youngs, Cole.

I also would retain Alun Wyn Jones and make him captain.

4 AWJ
5 Gray

Bench
Evans

Hello Sydney that's the scores from Edinburgh, Scotland.

by **Ozzy3213** Tue 02 Jul 2013, 6:15 pm

FHF I would concur with your starting front 5, but would have Vunipola as the bench option ahead of Grant.

by flyhalffactory Tue 02 Jul 2013, 6:20 pm

Ozzy3213 wrote:FHF I would concur with your starting front 5, but would have Vunipola as the bench option ahead of Grant.

How dare you...... you you Charlatan you ..................... grrrrrrrr its haggis at dawn for you and don't forget to bring your second (he can take my place because I will be with Dawn mmmmm lovely lass)

by Norfolklass Tue 02 Jul 2013, 7:36 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
Ozzy3213 wrote:FHF I would concur with your starting front 5, but would have Vunipola as the bench option ahead of Grant.

How dare you...... you you Charlatan you ..................... grrrrrrrr its haggis at dawn for you and don't forget to bring your second (he can take my place because I will be with Dawn mmmmm lovely lass)

There's an early rising at daybreak joke in there somewhere! Very Happy

by glamorganalun Tue 02 Jul 2013, 8:02 pm

Does anybody admit to voting for Grant starting, I would have him on the bench and Corbs to start VP looks a good prospet but should learn his trade first.

by HammerofThunor Tue 02 Jul 2013, 8:24 pm

Risca Rev wrote:AWJ and Gray for me. I think I'd settle for a perceived lineout weakness rather than a scrum one.

A front five of Corbs, Youngs, Jones, AWJ and Gray has a bit more firepower than last week.

Got to say I'd rather a stronger lineout than scrum.

1) Scrums depend massively on timing of the hit and 'luck' of the bind. Plenty of stronger Scrums can lose out due to miss timing or ref decisions.

2) What good is winning a scrum penalty if you lose the resulting lineout? Assuming you're outside goal range. I remember the 2007 final where they just kept taking our lineout ball, we had no chance.

3) You can go for most of a game without many/any Scrums. Line outs are generally more common.

4) Australia have played and won plenty of games where their scrum has been pooned. Generally against NH sides.

5) Even a strong scrum can be unstable, resulting in poor scrappy ball.

6) Lineouts are tactically more flexible, varying player numbers, etc.

Overall I'd prefer a strong lineout and a decent scrum to a strong scrum and decent lineout. Of course the best would be strong scrum and strong lineout.

Note: the above is just opinion.

Can Grant throw AND jump in the lineout? That may be the answer to our prayers. raspberry

by The Saint Tue 02 Jul 2013, 8:26 pm

glamorganalun wrote:Does anybody admit to voting for Grant starting, I would have him on the bench and Corbs to start VP looks a good prospet but should learn his trade first.

Not ahead of a fit Corbs, but Grant's form this season is worthy of test against Australia. So he would be my bench option.

by valtrepkos Tue 02 Jul 2013, 8:44 pm

Corbs-youngs-jones front row for me if they're all available

by maestegmafia Tue 02 Jul 2013, 10:48 pm

nathan wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I think Grant deserves a chance. He is the middle ground between Corbs and Vinapola.

He also has dealt well with plenty of top class tightheads recently.

Aye

He was superb against Adam Jones for Scotland and Glasgow this year...! I do agree that Corbisiero is the man to go with though. He is a superb scrummager, shame he struggles so much with injuries.

I kind of hope that irish didn't look after him properly and we'll see a lot less injuries now he's moved on and it isn't that he's just injury prone.

Let's hope so. Cracking player, too long on the sick note list.

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