England VS Scotland Discussion

First topic message reminder :

Quite looking forward to this game, anyone know what sort of attendance is expected? I reckon could be closer than people think. A few of my English mates reckon 4-0 or 5-0 wins but just don't think that'll happen tbh, hopefully I'm not wrong! Wish game culd have been at Hampden so there would have been cracking atmosphere but I'm hoping Wembley surprises me although I'm not expecting it. I hope to see Bridcutt play, not seen too much of him but impressed by limited amount I've seen. And I hope Rooney plays too.

Love how the St George-bummers are trying to suggest last night was a bit of a fluke and totally irrelevant.

In COMPETITIVE qualifiers we managed to draw 3 times last season against average European-level sides.

This is not an anomoly, this is part of a pattern!

NickisBHAFC wrote:

super_realist wrote:It's clear England are a second string National side, never likely to challenge beyond QF and sitting alongside Sweden, Belgium, Croatia , Russia etc in International standing.
They aren't failures being knocked out in QF or 2nd Round, that's just their natural level.

 Couldn't agree more.

I don't think Belgium should be on that list. I think they are many people's dark horses to do really well in the WC. How many of their squad would get into the England team?

HOw many of Englands team would get into the Belgium team more like.

I would say we're probably in the top 8 bracket.

Technically, we are behind Brazil, Spain, Argentina, Germany, and are roughly at the same level with Holland and Portugal. But we're better organised than Holland and Portugal, have greater depth over the pitch, aren't as reliant on one key man, and, on our day, can beat any team in the world.

England should expect the quarter-finals as a minimum of every tournament they play in. But they have the potential to be better than that, and they should get to more semi-finals, more finals, and they should have chalked up more than just one world cup.

We can win the world cup next year, but so can about 7 or 8 other teams.

If England get it right next summer, they do have the ability to go all the way. And I think they will get it right. I do think England will be Champions of the World in about 11 months time. I actually, truly do believe that.

super_realist wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

super_realist wrote:It's clear England are a second string National side, never likely to challenge beyond QF and sitting alongside Sweden, Belgium, Croatia , Russia etc in International standing.
They aren't failures being knocked out in QF or 2nd Round, that's just their natural level.

I'd say we're a notch above that but below the Brazils, Germanys, Spains, Italys etc of the world.  Would put us on a level with Portugal, for example.

Almost, but not quite. Portugal routinely get further than England and tend to beat England and England are certainly no better in tournaments than Sweden, Croatia or Czech Republic,  better than Poland, Switzerland and Greece though.

I think you'll find that hard to prove.

Way too optimistic. QF would be an acceptable level, but no way a minimum. There are way too many teams better than them. To put Holland on a par is a massive insult to Holland.

You can win the world cup in the same way that Croatia or Russia can, but it's not very likely is it?

super_realist wrote:Way too optimistic. QF would be an acceptable level, but no way a minimum. There are way too many teams better than them. To put Holland on a par is a massive insult to Holland.

You can win the world cup in the same way that Croatia or Russia can, but it's not very likely is it?

4-1 and 5-1. Can we say we're better than Croatia?

And England had a better Euro 2012 than Holland, Croatia, or Russia.

I think England are a QF team, therefore top 8, but bottom of that list.

I agree with some of what you say but this is a Scotland side nearly at its lowest ebb and you still struggled to win. True you cannot read a lot into one game but back that up by looking at your qualifying campaign tells me that all is not as rosy as Duty paints it. I do realise though that most English posters here do have a sense of sensible expectations about this squad is perhaps Second Round or at a push QF material.

TopHat24/7 wrote:I think England are a QF team, therefore top 8, but bottom of that list.

That's a fair assessment. Somewhere between 8-12 in actual reality, hence why they often don't make QF and go out in R2.

I see nothing to suggest they can go any further, combination of a lack of bottle, tactical nouse and team work.

Last 4 world cups we've done QFs twice and R2 twice. Both those R2 losses were against top opposition and were close games we did well in (losing one on pens).

To me that affirms QF/Top8. Inter-tournament we sometimes nudge up as we do well with the tourney pressure off.

super_realist wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:I think England are a QF team, therefore top 8, but bottom of that list.

That's a fair assessment. Somewhere between 8-12 in actual reality, hence why they often don't make QF and go out in R2.

I see nothing to suggest they can go any further, combination of a lack of bottle, tactical nouse and team work.

I just think that technically our players are light years behind still. Hodgson can't make a silk purse out of a pigs ear.

Christ we still struggle to put penalties away.

EH? Close games? England got absouttely smashed 4-1 going on 6 against Germany in R2 in 2010

I would suggest that what Scotland needed to change their "low ebb" was a game they couldnt lose (metaphorically) against a side they would be really up for it against. The mental edge they have been lacking was drastically transformed, the motivation and occasion helping to lift it. 

Much for England, as many 6-12 World Cup sides, will depend on the draw. You hit Spain or Germany in R2 then its unlucky. As is the nature of knockout football.

We're light years behind because pig-thick dumb-chav ignorant England football fans still celebrate defenders hoofing it clear and chucking their bodies on the floor, and cream over midfielders hitting hollywood passes even though they almost never come off (looking at you Stevie-G).

Paul Scholes walking away from the international set-up told you all you need to know. Only need to look at the vitriol reserved on here for Carrick, a player Xavi (may have been Iniesta) says is the best player in England by some margin and the only one he'd like to play with.

TopHat24/7 wrote:Last 4 world cups we've done QFs twice and R2 twice. Both those R2 losses were against top opposition and were close games we did well in (losing one on pens).  

To me that affirms QF/Top8.  Inter-tournament we sometimes nudge up as we do well with the tourney pressure off.

Well in 1998, Argentina couldn't beat an England side that were down to 10 men for nearly an hour.
In 2002, England were beaten by the better side. If you swap Germany and England in the draw, England would have made the Final.
In 2006, Portugal couldn't beat an England side that were down to 10 men for just over an hour.
In 2010, Germany needed a massive favour from the referee to see them past England.

It's frustration really. If the sending's off didn't happen, and Rooney's in 2006 was ridiculous, then England would have probably won those games. And in 2010, England-Germany could have gone either way if Lampard's goal was given.

super_realist wrote:EH? Close games? England got absouttely smashed 4-1 going on 6 against Germany in R2 in 2010

Close, IMO. Result was a joke and the score flattered the Germans.

I actually thought it was the best we played up until the Lampard goal was not given which was the turning point of the game. That given I'd have backed us to win.

TopHat24/7 wrote:We're light years behind because pig-thick dumb-chav ignorant England football fans still celebrate defenders hoofing it clear and chucking their bodies on the floor, and cream over midfielders hitting hollywood passes even though they almost never come off (looking at you Stevie-G).

Paul Scholes walking away from the international set-up told you all you need to know.  Only need to look at the vitriol reserved on here for Carrick, a player Xavi (may have been Iniesta) says is the best player in England by some margin and the only one he'd like to play with.

Carrick was absolutely awful for England when we played Montenegro. Awful.

I'm sorry, I love my country n all, but the Germans were technically superior in nearly every department and we only woke up very briefly. The momentum of the goal we should have got might have changed things, but Germany were definitely the better side.

If's and but's. If your auntie had balls she'd be your uncle.

You can make up fictitious scenarios but the records say exactly the level England are at.

Hard to accept for you, I know, but it's reality for now and the foreseeable future.

Do you think the likes of Russia and Sweden have loads of people talking up chances? No, they are realistic and accept their level.

England had more shots, and more possession in that game against Germany, didn't they?

Germany (GER) Statistics England (ENG)
17 Shots 19
7 Shots on goal 9
7 Fouls Committed 6
4 Corner kicks 6
0 Direct Free Kicks to Goal 3
0 Indirect Free Kicks to Goal 0
0 / 0 Penalty Kicks 0 / 0
4 Offsides 2
0 Own Goals 0
1 Cautions 1
0 Expulsions due to Second Caution 0
0 Direct Expulsions 0
48% Possession (%) 52%
32 Actual playing time 34

But Germany were brutal on the attack.

Thank you Freek.  

I seem to remember England being in control from the moment Upson scored, to the moment Germany countered for their 3rd goal. What might have been, I suppose.

FreekShow wrote:But Germany were brutal on the attack.

Only because we put bodies forward and were chasing a game we should have been level in. I still believe we would have won if Lampard's goal stood.

Really, this is getting like a "if we'd have scored more goals than them, we'd have won" situation.

England are like it or not,  are no better than a QF team. I'm not sure why you A) Can't be satisfied with that or B) Expect to get any further.

Would you expect Everton or Fulham to win the Premier League? Of course not, so why would England win a WC or Euro?

CFCNick wrote:

FreekShow wrote:But Germany were brutal on the attack.

Only because we put bodies forward and were chasing a game we should have been level in. I still believe we would have won if Lampard's goal stood.

They still had to convert though Nick. As I said, brutal.

Duty281 wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:We're light years behind because pig-thick dumb-chav ignorant England football fans still celebrate defenders hoofing it clear and chucking their bodies on the floor, and cream over midfielders hitting hollywood passes even though they almost never come off (looking at you Stevie-G).

Paul Scholes walking away from the international set-up told you all you need to know.  Only need to look at the vitriol reserved on here for Carrick, a player Xavi (may have been Iniesta) says is the best player in England by some margin and the only one he'd like to play with.

Carrick was absolutely awful for England when we played Montenegro. Awful.

Because he was playing alongside the dross which the ignorant masses cheer on that would get laughed out of any other top 8 side.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:We're light years behind because pig-thick dumb-chav ignorant England football fans still celebrate defenders hoofing it clear and chucking their bodies on the floor, and cream over midfielders hitting hollywood passes even though they almost never come off (looking at you Stevie-G).

Paul Scholes walking away from the international set-up told you all you need to know.  Only need to look at the vitriol reserved on here for Carrick, a player Xavi (may have been Iniesta) says is the best player in England by some margin and the only one he'd like to play with.

Carrick was absolutely awful for England when we played Montenegro. Awful.

Because he was playing alongside the dross which the ignorant masses cheer on that would get laughed out of any other top 8 side.

Surely if he was so great, that wouldn't matter?

Carrick is the most overrated player in England, he was underrated for many years because people didn't understand what he did, but now he's massively overrated.

FreekShow wrote:

CFCNick wrote:

FreekShow wrote:But Germany were brutal on the attack.

Only because we put bodies forward and were chasing a game we should have been level in. I still believe we would have won if Lampard's goal stood.

They still had to convert though Nick. As I said, brutal.

Converting wasn't very hard though. When it's 3/4 attackers on 2 defenders plus David James. Especially when those attackers were Ozil, Klose, Muller and Podolski.

 

FreekShow wrote:Germany (GER) Statistics England (ENG)
17 Shots 19
7 Shots on goal 9
7 Fouls Committed 6
4 Corner kicks 6
0 Direct Free Kicks to Goal 3
0 Indirect Free Kicks to Goal 0
0 / 0 Penalty Kicks 0 / 0
4 Offsides 2
0 Own Goals 0
1 Cautions 1
0 Expulsions due to Second Caution 0
0 Direct Expulsions 0
48% Possession (%) 52%
32 Actual playing time 34

Well, if your going to use stats, then lets look at the stats for England's games at Euro 2012 against France, Ukraine and Italy:

http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro/season=2012/matches/round=15172/match=2003326/postmatch/statistics/index.html

http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro/season=2012/matches/round=15172/match=2003342/postmatch/statistics/index.html

http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro/season=2012/matches/round=15173/match=2003346/postmatch/statistics/index.html

Crimey wrote:Carrick is the most overrated player in England, he was underrated for many years because people didn't understand what he did, but now he's massively overrated.  

And there we go......

I'll take Xavi's opinion over yours, thank-you.

I wasn't using stats to further any argument Benson. Duty mentioned them and I put them up.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Crimey wrote:Carrick is the most overrated player in England, he was underrated for many years because people didn't understand what he did, but now he's massively overrated.  

And there we go......

I'll take Xavi's opinion over yours, thank-you.

All I can find about what Xavi said about Carrick is this:

"Carrick gives United balance and can play defensively too. He passes well, has a good shot and is a complete player.” – Xavi

Hardly the most glowing praise in the world.

Will have to dig out the article (it was Xavi or Iniesta), posted it to another thread a while back.

Alternatively he may have been talking about Paul Scholes, in which case I'll have egg on my face....

TopHat24/7 wrote:Will have to dig out the article (it was Xavi or Iniesta), posted it to another thread a while back.

Alternatively he may have been talking about Paul Scholes, in which case I'll have egg on my face....

Yeah Xavi has been waxing lyrical about Scholes for years Toppy. Think Zidane said similar things.

I think you're thinking of Scholes as well, I haven't heard either Iniesta or Xavi wax lyrical about Michael Carrick.

I've never been given any evidence of Carrick being exceptional.

On the subject of players praise just read this from Buffon:

Gianluigi Buffon has admitted he will face the heir to his throne in tomorrow’s Euro 2012 showdown.

Buffon says Joe Hart is already one of the best three keepers in the world – and believes the England keeper could become No.1 in the future.

World Cup winner Buffon, 34, who has won 117 caps, is regarded as one of the best of all time and says Hart is already not far behind him.

Manchester City keeper Hart has described Buffon as his hero and so the Italy legend’s rich praise will be appreciated before they go head to head in Kiev tomorrow.

Buffon said: “Hart is one of the three best goalkeepers in the world. Together with Manuel Neuer (Bayern Munich and Germany) and Salvatore Sirigu (Buffon's back-up with Italy, now at Paris Saint Germain), he can become the best goalkeeper in the world.

“His aim is not to commit mistakes during one season. The maximum number of mistakes a keeper can commit is two or three, but he doesn’t seem to make mistakes.



It is a year old mind.

Dammit - it was Scholes <hangs head in shame>

Maybe Carrick's younger than I thought he was, cause he tweeted today:

"Michael Carrick ‏@carras16 7h
Nervous times waiting on A level results today..
Good luck all."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDI7KxMpbGw

the evidence is here. now, he says paul scholes. but paul scholes is carricks nickname around europe, ok, just remember that

FreekShow wrote:On the subject of players praise just read this from Buffon:

Gianluigi Buffon has admitted he will face the heir to his throne in tomorrow’s Euro 2012 showdown.

Buffon says Joe Hart is already one of the best three keepers in the world – and believes the England keeper could become No.1 in the future.

World Cup winner Buffon, 34, who has won 117 caps, is regarded as one of the best of all time and says Hart is already not far behind him.

Manchester City keeper Hart has described Buffon as his hero and so the Italy legend’s rich praise will be appreciated before they go head to head in Kiev tomorrow.

Buffon said: “Hart is one of the three best goalkeepers in the world. Together with Manuel Neuer (Bayern Munich and Germany) and Salvatore Sirigu (Buffon's back-up with Italy, now at Paris Saint Germain), he can become the best goalkeeper in the world.

“His aim is not to commit mistakes during one season. The maximum number of mistakes a keeper can commit is two or three, but he doesn’t seem to make mistakes.



It is a year old mind.

He said that about Craig Gordon as well, just before or after he moved to Sunderland

Unlucky

Whatever happened to Craig Gordon, I remember him making an incredible save and then there was talk of a move to Arsenal etc, queue Darren Anderton style injury record and he disappears from trace.

Has he retired?

super_realist wrote:Whatever happened to Craig Gordon, I remember him making an incredible save and then there was talk of a move to Arsenal etc, queue Darren Anderton style injury record and he disappears from trace.

Has he retired?

He's still technically a free agent but ongoing injuries have made it difficult for him to find a club, was doing a bit of casual coaching for Dumbarton on the side.

Shame what's happened to him as he was a great keeper (though luckily for Scotland I think McGregor is of a comparable standard), one of my Hearts supporting mates blames his wife for his injury troubles, refusing to move from Edinburgh and forcing him to commute too and from Sunderland on a regular basis.

Not sure how much truth there is in that though as she fancies him and could just be looking for a reason to hate the wife.

Can't blame her, have you ever been to Sunderland?

I haven't actually, too warm down those parts for me

Even Dundee is nicer

FreekShow wrote:On the subject of players praise just read this from Buffon:

Gianluigi Buffon has admitted he will face the heir to his throne in tomorrow’s Euro 2012 showdown.

Buffon says Joe Hart is already one of the best three keepers in the world – and believes the England keeper could become No.1 in the future.

World Cup winner Buffon, 34, who has won 117 caps, is regarded as one of the best of all time and says Hart is already not far behind him.

Manchester City keeper Hart has described Buffon as his hero and so the Italy legend’s rich praise will be appreciated before they go head to head in Kiev tomorrow.

Buffon said: “Hart is one of the three best goalkeepers in the world. Together with Manuel Neuer (Bayern Munich and Germany) and Salvatore Sirigu (Buffon's back-up with Italy, now at Paris Saint Germain), he can become the best goalkeeper in the world.

“His aim is not to commit mistakes during one season. The maximum number of mistakes a keeper can commit is two or three, but he doesn’t seem to make mistakes.



It is a year old mind.

Still young is hart. Young GK's are gonna make mistakes. It's whether he chooses to learn from them and become better for them, or just remain inconsistent which will stop him being one of the best