Is Mayweather the greatest ever... really that farfetched ???

First topic message reminder :

Look at the top 10 list...............

Robinson - drew with Brimm at 27...Basora.....24...........Lost to the ordinary Lamotta....and was outboxed by the crouching Turpin twice..only a desperate rally saved him from a cut stoppage and a second owning!!.......The ring even carries an article in 1952 of him avoiding a rubber match with Turpin !!! with evidence to back it up.........all this before the age of 30 !!!..

When he was Mayweather's age he was being beaten twice by Pender and losing to Gene Fullmer...Forget Maxim..

This is not to knock the great Man....only to point out that these guys weren't always great.........By the way these losses don't harm Robinson....It's only Oscar who's losses count against him!!

Don't see anyone on Robbo's welter record Mayweather wouldn't beat..and Floyd was a 130er..........

Robinson perhaps fought slightly more p4pers than Floyd and won undisputed titles but the fact remains he was human.........and he could be beat!!........He also avoided Turpin..

But hey Robbo is a worthy choice..no doubts!!

Look at Ali - By the age of 29 he'd been beaten by Frazier...and lost to Norton at least twice in most peoples opinion.........(ALi is my number 1) At Floyd's age he was losing to an amateur in Leon Spinks..........

Not many p4pers in Ali's list...........Frazier, Foreman..maybe Liston......

Think Floyd's record matches up pretty well with Leonard's.............Losing to the lightweight Duran.........in his prime is a black mark for Ray in my opinion..........

Fact is how many fighters reign supreme at 36 years of age like Floyd and how many have been at the top of their sport for 15 years ????

Louis ten year reign is enough for top 10 status for him.........A laughable place that Floyd can't achieve in most eyes..

Fact is Mayweather isn't likable and it counts against him but more careful analysis shows that he does have a claim to be the best...However the older fighters like Robbo get... the more people forget the bad things they did and the poor performances.....

I'd pick Mayweather to beat Robbo and Leonard............Hearns would be my main concern.....

Not enough credit is given to Floyd being the best at 36 an unheard of age for number 1 p4p status...

For me Mayweather being the greatest ever isn't that farfetched...there is a case to be made....

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Gatti and Manfredy are on your list but Guerrero and Cotto aren't opponents to value..

Are you really that dumb...

enough now.

That basically ends any agument with you..

For once...once.....I have to side with Truss.

Mayweather could have a very good claim to being the greatest of all time, even without Pacquiao. Because Pacman aside, who did he not beat? Who has he not faced? He's taken them all on. Albeit slowly and infrequently, but he has cleaned up. You have to look not only at the sheer amount of top elite level wins and title fights (26) but the manner in which he has accomplished it. Not once was he gifted a decision. Not once has he been knocked down, every single time a class apart. Only De La Hoya and Castillo came close and still lost. He won a bronze medal in 1996 (which was a complete robbery as he won that fight - similar to Roy Jones in Seoul) and has been through 5 different weight classes through his career. He brings charisma, skill, style, intrigue and although he is a completely abhorrent personality - you cannot question his ability or his record.

For me, he reaches #1 if he beats Alvarez and then goes and beats Golovkin or Martinez and maybe sticks around for Kell Brook (at the moment that would be pointless) or Amir/Alexander/Bradley. You cannot question him then. He'll have beaten every single opponent through 6 weight classes and that will be that. 4 more fights will make him 48 - 0 with 30 world title fights.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Gatti and Manfredy are on your list but Guerrero and Cotto aren't opponents to value..

Are you really that dumb...

enough now.

Having watched Mayweathers fights they are two of his most impressive wins. JMM was a joke fight. Guerrero was like watching paint dry. Cotto should have been on the list as others who were well past their best were also included.


Tell me what does Floyd have to compete with: Liston, Fraizer, Foreman or Tendler, Britton, Welsh, Dundee, and Kilbane.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Gatti and Manfredy are on your list but Guerrero and Cotto aren't opponents to value..

Are you really that dumb...

enough now.

To be fair Manfredy was a better opponent at the time than Guerrero was & a more live opponent than Cotto was at the time although Cotto surprised everybody & put in a good performance.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Gatti and Manfredy are on your list but Guerrero and Cotto aren't opponents to value..

Are you really that dumb...

enough now.

That basically ends any agument with you..

I assumed the mountain of facts I presented ended this argument.


C'mon kiddo throw out the all time great fighters Floyd has defeated.  

You have blatantly avoided this question about 5 times because you have no answer.



Geurrero a great fighter.      

Marquez (not a joke fight, did you see how he dealt with Pacquiao?)
De La Hoya
Cotto
Judah
Mosely
Gatti
Baldomir
Castillo
Corrales

There are others who were elite level when they faced Mayweather like Ortiz, N'dou, Hatton etc.

I just think that people are blinkered in that they want him to lose. I do, but I cannot question his record.

JabMachineMK2 wrote:Marquez (not a joke fight, did you see how he dealt with Pacquiao?)
De La Hoya
Cotto
Judah
Mosely
Gatti
Baldomir
Castillo
Corrales

There are others who were elite level when they faced Mayweather like Ortiz, N'dou, Hatton etc.

I just think that people are blinkered in that they want him to lose. I do, but I cannot question his record.

The fight was a joke because JMM jumped two weights, looked fat and never for a second of the 12 rounds it lasted thought he could win the fight. Even Floyd didn't have the heart to beat him up and that's saying something.

Manny would have no chance against Floyd either imo.  Manny's style relies on athleticism and he isn't getting any younger.


To be the greatest there needs to be some all time great weight class fighters in the record. Floyd has none.


Floyd wasn't too pushed on cementing a legacy and for this reason he didn't take the challenges that would make him an ATG Top 20 in my view..

JabMachineMK2 wrote:Marquez (not a joke fight, did you see how he dealt with Pacquiao?)
De La Hoya
Cotto
Judah
Mosely
Gatti
Baldomir
Castillo
Corrales

There are others who were elite level when they faced Mayweather like Ortiz, N'dou, Hatton etc.

I just think that people are blinkered in that they want him to lose. I do, but I cannot question his record.

That's very selective of the facts and has actually left out a few of Mayweathers better wins, his top ten for me would be;

Corrales
Castillo
Hernandez
Chavez
Manfredy
Hatton
De La Hoya
Mosley
Cotto
Marquez

The likes of Judah, Gatti, Baldomir, N'Dou and Ortiz are solid wins but they aren't wins that greats will be judged upon. Of his biggest wins De La Hoya, Mosley and Cotto were all a good few years past their bests while Marquez was severely outmatched physically.

You also suggested he faced everyone well he didn't, again i'll give ten fighters he should have faced or at least faced earlier.

1. Pacquiao
2. Mosley in around 2007
3. Cotto at 140lbs or 147lbs
4. Tzuyu
5. Wright after De La Hoya
6. Casamayor
7. Williams
8. Margarito
9. Freitas
10. He could have got any of Hamed, Barrera, Morales or Marquez to step up to face him at 130lbs if i'm being hyper critical. The fight with Hamed was at one point much anticipated.

When we're discussing Mayweather up with the very best we have to be very critical of his fight selection, there were definitely better options for him at certain stages of his career.

Definitely a great, greatest fighter I've watched for sure. I can't compare guys like welterweight Robbo & Greb as I've never seen them & don't know much about their opponents, but surely for those who do know there are fighters in/around their divisions they they could have fought but didn't for one reason or another.

I think there are only questions over his greatness because of how great he is, there could be any number of reasons the mentioned fights didn't happen, maybe he did pick fights he felt he could win but every fighter does that & fact is the guys he did fight were top top fighters & he dealt with all of them pretty handily, except for Castillo 1 which was controversial but he put it right 2nd time.

Point I'm making is a fighter can try to pick their way through & they all try to do it but none do it & beat everyone in the way Floyd does, to fight 12 rounds with a 3 weight world champion & hardly get hit is masterful.

And to still be doing it at 36 and look every bit as sharp is remarkable, I don't see how anyone can not like Floyd as a fighter or respect him as one, for me he is everything a boxer should be, exciting above all & at the same time hit & not get hit.

He's one of a kind & won't be truly appreciated until he's well reitred

Very good post chris...........

Thing is...He's number 1 at 36 a rare rare feat...He's been at the top for 15 years unbeaten..a rare rare feat...

and all some people can say is he's a cherry picking ducker...

Some even feel happy to call Eusebio Pedroza great and not Oscar de la Hoya..

Make that your last post on here please...and go look for Azania instead to insult..

I still haven't seen that peak ATG Top 20 division champ that Floyd has beat.


Maybe he beats Alverez and then Alerez goes on to be an ATG. Grasping at straws a bit though.

Give it a rest pal...........

Just out of curiosity who would everyone put, in order, of Floyds top 5 wins? Because after all its not just the ability you should be judged on but the actual fights you have taken, and I think when people post his top 5 wins alone you will see why he is not the greatest

I personally dont have Floyd top 10 all time so I'd say its very far fetched to call him the greatest

A don't buy into the being top for 15 (17 according to floyd) years. If by being top he means a world champ than yes, but by that logic Clev was at the top for 3 years right. When I here "at the top" I think #1p4p, and while he has been #1 he had to play second fiddle to RJJ for the first few years and then shared his time at the top 60/40 with pacquio

I think the not being beat is another tough point. Its easier to stay unbeaten when the competition is weaker, does anyone have Marciano p4p #1 of all?

If Ali can be picked up on the liston "wins" then surrly the same applies with Castillo who should have got the nod,  and castillo is a good but not great fighter anyway

Well then you can't rate Sanchez, Pedroza and anyone else who is an alphabet champ.......

Second fiddle to RJJ for a few years....Geez you're reaching aren't you !!

Leonard wasn't always p4p number 1 during his reign and neither was Robbo.......

What a great response to ignore every point I make

What, in your opinion, are floyds top 5 wins?

What about that Top 20 division all time great?

RJJ has one of those at least.

I'm not interested in you........If I answer your question which wouldn't be difficult...

You'd only deny you asked me it..

You're argument hit a wall.  

Face up to it, slide back into the shadows and come back to fight another day.

If you say so...I've more than backed it up..

Enough time spent on you..

Mayweather is a nailed on top 5 ATG. Nobody can deny it, and the only reason people do is because either they are envious of his skillset and career, or they simply don't like his arrogant personality and swagger. Something which pisses you off thus clouding your judgement on this generations greatest.

Good boy Mobile..........someone who sees the big picture...

Personality over common sense with some Floyd detractors.......

Or they acknowledge that there are five fighters better than him, it's such a cop out to say his attitude is the sole reason he's ranked ever so slightly lower.

Thank you for posting on my thread Sir Ghosty..

I'm not worthy..

Indeed. Just been sat reading through and the amount of garbage is unreal. He is undefeated, has fought top names throughout his career, has moved through the weights and has only been troubled a couple of times max with close calls against ODLH and Castillo. If he beats Alavarez then he deserves his due from some posters. But saying that, they will see hos post fight interview and not like it, thus resulting to "nah, he ain't great, he not beat anyone really" etc etc etc bore bore bore. Facts don't lie and i can see a valid argument as to why he is NOT top 5.

Given that you tend to get so upset when you feel like someone is trying to tell you what your agenda is, Truss, then I thought you'd know better than to agree with such a ridiculously simplistic and off-base comment by mm8.

Those who don't consider Mayweather a top five great, or a contender for the number one spot, have outlined there reasons for that as best they can, and none of them have said it's because of his personality, and nor has there been a hint of envy in any of those comments, as far as I can see. Mobile's comment is absurd, and you know it.

I know Trussy its hard, but given your having so much trouble I found a website you can use


http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=352&cat=boxer

So because they don't mention his personality we should accept them at face value ??

Their arguments don't wash.....As for you you regard the Oscar slapped Whittaker higher...

I like Meg Ryan because of her personality..

Must be true..

I disagree Chris (which is rare).

I don't see a valid argument as to why he isn't top 5. If someone could shed some light it would be great.

Hr has beaten everyone put in his way, multiple weight champion, undefeated, reigned over 15 years at the top of the game, is 37 and taking on a 22 year old which is considered his biggest test....these are some things top ten fighters even wish they could have IMO.

I cant discredit the guy based on his personality at all. He proves it in the ring every single time.

WHU_Champo_League_in_7Yrs wrote:I know Trussy its hard, but given your having so much trouble I found a website you can use


http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=352&cat=boxer

Five top 10 p4pers...........Almost unheard of.........Thanks all the same kiddo..

I love Chris........ mobile.........But Whittaker lost four times and drew with Chavez in a lesser period than Mayweather has reigned.......

Also lost to Oscar.........

Mayweather has fought more p4pers and has been p4p number 1 longer......

and Chris has Pernell higher.............

When you argue with him over Floyd best to remember where he is coming from..

Ok list them then in order

I just refuse to believe that someone thought up a thread like this, that Floyd might be the best ever and then completely bottle it when I ask who they think are his best wins

You always list the amount of p4p fighters he has beat but I dont really look at those lists so please list them by name

"Their" arguments are all valid, seeing as most have backed them up as best they can with context, reason etc. The fact that you don't agree with them doesn't automatically mean they don't wash.
 
As I said, you are always quick to point out how much you hate people telling you what your agenda is. To then basically say that everyone is wrong and that they're only voicing their opinions because they dislike Floyd and are jealous of him is hypocrisy of the highest order. Equivocate, avoid and make wee little barbs all you like, it won't change that fact.

Where I rate Pernell in relation to Floyd (and I have 'em basically level pegging, by the way) ain't relevant. You've only mentioned it because you want to try and tell me that I have an agenda against Mayweather, which I don't.

Chris downloaded a ring list sometime ago........Floyd has beat the requisite p4pers..

In fairness he corrected me on Buddy Mcgirt being a p4per..........(Must have been a poor couple of months)

Only a fool has Whittaker level playing with Floyd Mate..no offence..

Never beat anybody.............Ramirez, Oscar, Trinidad and a draw with Chavez....

No wonder their arguments are valid...

I saw Meldrick win a shutout over Mcgirt.......and mcgirt was lucky to get shut out.

Stop telling me they were p4pers, tell me who what there names are so I know who you are talking about

Let's just calm down.....

Must admit I do love the comment...nobody has mentioned his personality..

Bit like saying everybody is constructive about Danny Cipriati because of his rugby and not the fact he's banging Kell Brook.. 

No wonder Kell's always injured.

The same old lines over and over again.

I don't see Chris labelling your views as ridiculous or harbouring some contrived conspiracy yet you feel the need to get all high and mighty as soon as anyone challenges your views on Mayweather. The lines between Whitaker and Mayweather are very fine but you're the only one who seems to think Floyd belongs in a different stratosphere, Chris has given his reasons constantly and whilst I don't agree you have to respect well though out opinions even if they are different to your own.

As for Mayweather being a nailed on top 5 guy, he simply isn't;

1. Robinson; Longevity isn't measured in just years but still he was at or near the top for 20 years, he lost his fair share eventually but he fought 200 times in that period not 44 times so defeats are to be expected. It's often forgotten that he started at lightweight but moved up to welterweight in the hope he would get a shot at the world title.

2. Armstrong; Three simultaneous world titles as well as still holding the record for most world title defences at Welterweight, he fought so frequently against such a high level of opponent his longevity was crammed into a four year period.

3. Greb; An almost incomparable record, the only man to beat the great Gene Tunney, beat something like 16 former, current or future world champions as well as two other hall of famers including Tunney, Walker, Rosenbloom and Loughran.

4. Fitzsimmons; The first ever triple world champion from middleweight to heavyweight, his come from behind win to knock out Corbett while hugely outweighed is a better win than anything on Mayweathers resume.

5. Ali; The greatest heavyweight of them all, beat a who's who of the golden era of the division including Liston, Frazier and Foreman

6. Charles; A man deemed too good and too black to get a title shot until he stepped up to heavyweight having been a top contender at middleweight and is widely regarded as the greatest light heavyweight of them all. Had to fight the black murderers row with regularity but very rarely lost, Burley, Moore, Bivins and an ageing Louis the standouts.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Only a fool has Whittaker level playing with Floyd Mate..no offence..

Never beat anybody.............Ramirez, Oscar, Trinidad and a draw with Chavez....

No wonder their arguments are valid...

I saw Meldrick win a shutout over Mcgirt.......and mcgirt was lucky to get shut out.

As I said a minute or two ago, Truss. My views on Whitaker aren't important here. I've tried my best to deal with your double standards, pedantic attitude, unneccesary aggression etc when we've done the Pea-Floyd debate in the past (some of which is again on display here) and to be honest I don't think I've got the strength to do it anymore! We're talking about Mayweather here, and why not everyone is as blown away by him as you are.

You stated early on in this article that you don't mind people disagreeing with you as long as they give reason and think their points through. Practice what you preach, beefster. You can't just say "Your opinion is irrelevant, you don't like Floyd and that's the only reason you don't have him at number one" whenever someone disagrees.

list of 5:

Corrales (p4p 5 when fought)
Castillo (p4p 7 when fought)
JMM (p4p number 4 when fought)
Hernandez (p4p number 10 when fought)
Guerrero (p4p number 9 according to WBC)

Suppose you could throw de la hoya, Hatton and possibly some more into this of people took their time.

I browsed the list, checked their ranking at fight time, and there you go.

Depends how you're defining greatness? If it's the eyeball test i.e. you're comparing fighters based on how they look on film, then you could argue a case for him being as talented as Robinson, Armstrong et al.

If it's based on level of achievement, then he simply can't compare to fighters who took on great challenges; great fighters in their prime (and at their best weight). Mayweather hasn't done that since 2001.

Great? Yes. But hardly the greatest.

His opponents since then have all been carefully chosen. Plus, he welched on the Pacquiao fight (he had his reasons, yet the fact remains).

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Let's just calm down.....

Why don't you just tell me what his best 5 wins are, you never know I might be so impressed that i change my mind

5 p4p old men more like.

Where they p4p whenFloyd fought them????

Trussy's getting his ass handed to him here.

You'll find it hard to pick one of these that didn't fight at least one great fighter, maybe Jofre. Not my list btw but it'll do for this purpose.



1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Harry Greb
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Muhammad Ali (Tie)
4. Joe Louis (Tie)
6. Sam Langford
7. Roberto Duran
8. Benny Leonard
9. Willie Pep
10. Bob Fitzsimmons
11. Joe Gans
12. Ezzard Charles (Tie)
12. Sugar Ray Leonard (Tie)
14. Jimmy Wilde
15. Eder Jofre
16. Mickey Walker
17. Archie Moore
18. Jack Dempsey
19. Jack Johnson
20. Gene Tunney

How is JMM and old man? Just sparked pacquiao and should have been given the nod in previous fights. Not only that, but if he dealt with Pacman like that, no wonder they "avoided" Floyd.

Corrales was undefeated and ranked number one by WBC and was under 30 in terms of age.

Hatton as well.

Castillo too....

Guerrero had come off a run of good wins putting his name up there in the top 10 and wasn't old.

All the fighters i mentioned, at time of fighting Floyd, were ranked in the top ten of the Rings Pound for Pound ranking.

The fact that guerrero is a top 10 p4per just completely destroys the point about him fighting X amount of p4pers

I guess Soto Karass is about 9th atm, he beat both Aydin and Berto did he not after all that's all Guerrero had to do