Carl 'The Condradiction' Froch

First topic message reminder :

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jpq_ZAhbRwU

George Groves just tweeted this. Have to say, it is pretty funny and makes Froch look like a complete Muppet...

How old was Johnson when he faced Froch? He wasn't a young man in his late teens was he? No, didn't think so. And yet this fella clouted Froch round the head with God only knows how many overhand rights. "Old Man" Kessler had froch doing a silly dance in the last round of their rematch and yet we're expected to believe that this will be a wide wide wiiiiide UD for Carl "The Wiggling Warrior" Froch.

I expect Froch to win but certainly don't expect him to have things all his own way. Groves was a big underdog against Degale but didn't let the occasion get to him. He's got an old head on young shoulders, I'm sure he'll be full of confidence too and I think he has enough about him to give Froch a few troubling moments in the fight

DAVE667 wrote:How old was Johnson when he faced Froch? He wasn't a young man in his late teens was he? No, didn't think so. And yet this fella clouted Froch round the head with God only knows how many overhand rights. "Old Man" Kessler had froch doing a silly dance in the last round of their rematch and yet we're expected to believe that this will be a wide wide wiiiiide UD for Carl "The Wiggling Warrior" Froch.

Silly dance my ar5e. Tripe.

seanmichaels wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:How old was Johnson when he faced Froch? He wasn't a young man in his late teens was he? No, didn't think so. And yet this fella clouted Froch round the head with God only knows how many overhand rights. "Old Man" Kessler had froch doing a silly dance in the last round of their rematch and yet we're expected to believe that this will be a wide wide wiiiiide UD for Carl "The Wiggling Warrior" Froch.

Silly dance my ar5e. Tripe.

Watch it again, catches Froch Astaire flush and he's hurt. If Kessler hadn't overtrained  he'd be fighting Groves now!

azania wrote:

mobilemaster8 wrote:

azania wrote:Groves will win.  Vastly underrated with Froch overrated.

Based on who they have fought so far AZ, could you please explain to the forum how you come to this?

Based on their abilities.  Groves  is a rapidly improving fighter who can mix up the fight.  Plus he has a dig on him. Froch isn't exactly hard to find and will be found wanting at the end.

How has he improved that much?, nearly stopped by Anderson, an improved defensive performance against Degale of which he still struggled (and many had lose) and since then he has beat up a 43 year old Johnston who came to his back yard on the back of three losses, with no head movement or speed left...

The only issue I have is people giving Froch credit for beating Johnson and then saying Groves beat up an old man. In my opinion, Groves did a much better number on him than Froch. Froch got caught quite a lot. Please review ages below of what age Johnson was when fighting both:

Froch - 42 years, 5 months, 2 days
Groves - 43 years, 11 months, 13 days

Not much of a difference so I think it's fair to say they both beat a similar version of Johnson. I'm not saying this an indicator on the outcome Froch-Groves, just people slating Groves for beating a 'shot' Johnson.

DAVE667 wrote:How old was Johnson when he faced Froch?

He wasn't a young man in his late teens was he? No, didn't think so. And yet this fella clouted Froch round the head with God only knows how many overhand rights.

He was a year an a half younger which when over 40 in this sport is a long time. He had also come off the back of a victory and was fighting in the USA where he has fought most of his fights, and while it was seen as a poor Froch performence, he still won.

Then take Groves who fought him a year in a half later of which he had come off the back of 3 losses and went to the UK to fight Groves, and where Groves was hailed for useing him as a punch bag.

With all that aside you only had to look at Johnson limited head movement past round 2 and his lack of speed to know he was an old man in their at the most to hang on to his good record of not being stopped and pick up a pension cheque!

"Old Man" Kessler had froch doing a silly dance in the last round of their rematch and yet we're expected to believe that this will be a wide wide wiiiiide UD for Carl "The Wiggling Warrior" Froch.

Ok so despite Kesler KOing all his opponents since he last fought Carl, and despite him being a world champion when he fought Carl and younger than Carl, lets ignore Carls last victory over Kessler and just admire how close he came in Denmak 3 years ago against a supposed better Kessler. and question how Groves would have delt with being tagged as many times by Kessler in front of all those Danish fans.... oh wait, we have no idea as Groves has not been at that level.

I expect Froch to win but certainly don't expect him to have things all his own way. Groves was a big underdog against Degale but didn't let the occasion get to him. He's got an old head on young shoulders, I'm sure he'll be full of confidence too and I think he has enough about him to give Froch a few troubling moments in the fight

Degale had even less pro experience than Groves had in that fight and they were both nervous, and it showed. Groves also had most of the crowed supporting him which wont be the case with Froch.

 

Forget how Groves did v Johnson versus how Froch did. Look how Bute dealt with the likes of Bika and Johnson before Froch got hold of him.

This is about how Groves moves and how he reacts when he is tagged. Personally, I don't see him reacting well. Froch KO inside 8

Pedro147 wrote:
Froch - 42 years, 5 months, 2 days
Groves - 43 years, 11 months, 13 days

Not much of a difference so I think it's fair to say they both beat a similar version of Johnson. I'm not saying this an indicator on the outcome Froch-Groves, just people slating Groves for beating a 'shot' Johnson.

yeah right, when you are over 40 a year an a half can be a very long time, you forget the work put on these guys bodies.

Johnson fought Groves 1 1/2 years later, who lost 2 fights since Froch also beat him, so you are talking three training camps later, plus he traveled to the UK. Bute done a better job than Froch in Johnson's following fight, Does that make Bute on Carls level?

Anyone who watched the Groves v Johnson fight and was honest would have seen Johnson was done... no speed, head movement gone from the 2 rnd on, throwing very few punches. then compare it to the Johnson who Carl fought.

Froch by no means put in a great performance against Johnson but it was certainty not the same fighter Groves beat.

Dave what fight you on about with froch being wobbled?

im sure he got caught late on, stumbled against the ropes, Kessler went in to finish and then froch turned the round around and battered him nearly getting the stoppage himself?

mobilemaster8 wrote:Dave what fight you on about with froch being wobbled?

im sure he got caught late on, stumbled against the ropes, Kessler went in to finish and then froch turned the round around and battered him nearly getting the stoppage himself?

He was wobbled by Kessler tho. You are right, but he was a wobbled. No man's chin holds up forever. Not even The Contradiction's

Yeh i know he wobbled, but he wasn't on Khan Street or something like when Mayweather got clocked by Mosley was he? He took the shot, knees dipped, used the ropes to compose, then came back and dominated like the warrior he is.

His chin is great, but we have seen previous flaws. Taylor wasn't the most concussive of punchers and he dropped froch. Suppose its about the speed of the shot, technique etc, something i don't think groves has.....yet.

tunes666 wrote:

Pedro147 wrote:
Froch - 42 years, 5 months, 2 days
Groves - 43 years, 11 months, 13 days

Not much of a difference so I think it's fair to say they both beat a similar version of Johnson. I'm not saying this an indicator on the outcome Froch-Groves, just people slating Groves for beating a 'shot' Johnson.

yeah right, when you are over 40 a year an a half can be a very long time, you forget the work put on these guys bodies.

Johnson fought Groves 1 1/2 years later, who lost 2 fights since Froch also beat him, so you are talking three training camps later, plus he traveled to the UK.  Bute done a better job than Froch in Johnson's following fight, Does that make Bute on Carls level?

Anyone who watched the Groves v Johnson fight and was honest would have seen Johnson was done... no speed, head movement gone from the 2 rnd on, throwing very few punches. then compare it to the Johnson who Carl fought.

Froch by no means put in a great performance against Johnson but it was certainty not the same fighter Groves beat.

Well Johnson is called the Road Warrior as that's what he did his whole career so don't see the the problem with him coming the UK. You asked "Bute done a better job than Froch in Johnson's following fight, Does that make Bute on Carl's level?". Of course not which is why I stated in my first post that I'm not comparing their other fights, simply the ones with Johnson.

It was not intended as an anti-Froch post, just my personal opinion on their fights with Johnson. I think Froch will win this as he's all wrong for Groves. The only worry I would have is if Froch gets too cocky and walks into a master-blaster from Groves who can bang, something that has improved since his fight with JDG in my opinion.

Pedro147 wrote:

tunes666 wrote:

Pedro147 wrote:
Froch - 42 years, 5 months, 2 days
Groves - 43 years, 11 months, 13 days

Not much of a difference so I think it's fair to say they both beat a similar version of Johnson. I'm not saying this an indicator on the outcome Froch-Groves, just people slating Groves for beating a 'shot' Johnson.

yeah right, when you are over 40 a year an a half can be a very long time, you forget the work put on these guys bodies.

Johnson fought Groves 1 1/2 years later, who lost 2 fights since Froch also beat him, so you are talking three training camps later, plus he traveled to the UK.  Bute done a better job than Froch in Johnson's following fight, Does that make Bute on Carls level?

Anyone who watched the Groves v Johnson fight and was honest would have seen Johnson was done... no speed, head movement gone from the 2 rnd on, throwing very few punches. then compare it to the Johnson who Carl fought.

Froch by no means put in a great performance against Johnson but it was certainty not the same fighter Groves beat.

Well Johnson is called the Road Warrior as that's what he did his whole career so don't see the the problem with him coming the UK. You asked "Bute done a better job than Froch in Johnson's following fight, Does that make Bute on Carl's level?". Of course not which is why I stated in my first post that I'm not comparing their other fights, simply the ones with Johnson.

It was not intended as an anti-Froch post, just my personal opinion on their fights with Johnson. I think Froch will win this as he's all wrong for Groves. The only worry I would have is if Froch gets too cocky and walks into a master-blaster from Groves who can bang, something that has improved since his fight with JDG in my opinion.

YEAN MAN, A PROPER WARRIOR WHO TRAVELS THE WORLD SEEKING OUT BATTLE AFTER BATTLE, WAR AFTER WAR, CONFLICT AFTER CONFLICT, DRAWING LINES IN THE SAND AND THE TRENCHES, FIGHTING IN THE FIELDS, STREETS, BEACHES AND ARENAS, ASKING NO QUARTER AND GIVING NONE IN RETURN...NOT LIKE THIS SO-CALLED WARRIOR FROCH WHO SPENDS HIS TIME DOING THE CHA CHA AND THE SHIMMY AND THE HUSTLE BUSTLE AND DROPPING WOMEN ON THEIR HEADS!!!!!!!!!!

tunes666 wrote:

azania wrote:

mobilemaster8 wrote:

azania wrote:Groves will win.  Vastly underrated with Froch overrated.

Based on who they have fought so far AZ, could you please explain to the forum how you come to this?

Based on their abilities.  Groves  is a rapidly improving fighter who can mix up the fight.  Plus he has a dig on him. Froch isn't exactly hard to find and will be found wanting at the end.

How has he improved that much?, nearly stopped by Anderson, an improved defensive performance against Degale of which he still struggled (and many had lose) and since then he has beat up a 43 year old Johnston who came to his back yard on the back of three losses, with no head movement or speed left...

Base him on the Anderson fight. Great. He hasn't improved from then. Should we base Froch on getting lucky against Dirrell or the other blown up middleweight who he stopped seconds from the end when way behind on points?

You bring up Johnson. Was he a sprightly youth when he gave Froch nightmares?

I believe Groves has the ability to beat Froch. Yes Froch is a strong b'stard and tough as nails. A warrior and a worrier. An altogether Spartan and mighty fella. But he is beatable and Groves can do it hence I'm backing him.

How has Groves improved? If you can't see it then stop watching boxing.

tunes666 wrote:

Pedro147 wrote:
Froch - 42 years, 5 months, 2 days
Groves - 43 years, 11 months, 13 days

Not much of a difference so I think it's fair to say they both beat a similar version of Johnson. I'm not saying this an indicator on the outcome Froch-Groves, just people slating Groves for beating a 'shot' Johnson.

yeah right, when you are over 40 a year an a half can be a very long time, you forget the work put on these guys bodies.

Johnson fought Groves 1 1/2 years later, who lost 2 fights since Froch also beat him, so you are talking three training camps later, plus he traveled to the UK.  Bute done a better job than Froch in Johnson's following fight, Does that make Bute on Carls level?

Anyone who watched the Groves v Johnson fight and was honest would have seen Johnson was done... no speed, head movement gone from the 2 rnd on, throwing very few punches. then compare it to the Johnson who Carl fought.

Froch by no means put in a great performance against Johnson but it was certainty not the same fighter Groves beat.

Johnson was fighting out of him prime weight for the first time in a decade when he fought Froch. One can argue that he was still getting used to the weight loss also.

Johnson as done before he fought Froch. Yet he gave him fits. Groves handled him with ease.

Taylor was no blown up middleweight, he was always bigger than Froch.

I agree with you there Az, he is a modern age Spartan.

Aye, Glencoffe got the call to join the Super Six after (insert name) pulled out injured. he'd been campaigning at LH for ages and would have been foolish to turn down a big pay day and chance to get back in the title mix. Old man or not he hit Froch flush with more shots than a fighter of Froch's calibre should feasibly ship. Let's not forget Carl Astaire wasn't facing RJJ in his prime, this was old man Johnson

Amazing what can happen when you have no fear of an opponents power, the one guy he thought could hurt him Abraham barely touched him.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Amazing what can happen when you have no fear of an opponents power, the one guy he thought could hurt him Abraham barely touched him.

Although the opposing view is that Froch WAS in fear of Abraham's power and wisely chose to box at range. He won't fear Groves' power and will probably leave himself open to shots that might not put him out or even put him over but will only serve to give Groves confidence.

Still have to favour Froch but I think Groves will surprise some of you with how good he is.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Taylor was no blown up middleweight, he was always bigger than Froch.

He was coming down from LHW. For someone his age to do that is an incredible fete in itself. Then to fight competitively which he did is amazing.

mobilemaster8 wrote:I agree with you there Az, he is a modern age Spartan.

Kep reading mate. There is lots to learn from my posts:D  

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Taylor was no blown up middleweight, he was always bigger than Froch.

SO what of Taylor was the bigger man on fight night. Some here put down Floyd's win against Hatton because Hatton's prime weight was LWW even though Hatton entered the fight the bigger man. Fact is Taylor, who decked Froch, was a career MW whose best wins and fights happened there.

Any more nit-picking?

The point being he was no blown up middleweight, a term used to try and downplay Froch.

Try reading what I wrote Dave before jumping in with both feet.

Oh and Johnson had knocked Green out the fight before Froch at 168lbs.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:The point being he was no blown up middleweight, a term used to try and downplay Froch.

Try reading what I wrote Dave before jumping in with both feet.

He was outboxed for most of the fight and only Taylor's lack of gas caused Froch to win.

Or the reality is that the fight was heading to a split decision with al Bernstein of showtime thinking there was a round in it either way. Media row were also split on the fight which has taken on a life of its own.

Who was winning?

Had the fight gone the distance it would have been a two point split decision win for Taylor but alas a fight is an actual 12 rounds in which time Froch had grown into the fight and worn Taylor down.

More like Taylor gassed as he did against Abrahams. Look at his fights with Hop. Gassed also. WhenPavlik beat him he gassed after 5 rounds. He is a stamina free zone.

I prefer to give the winner of a fight credit rather than find any excuse to downplay a win, Froch won fair and square, he knew of Taylors weaknesses and took full advantage of that.

The Slimster Froch will win on points I have always said that but never in a million years does he stop Groves

You said the same of Bute and look how that turned out/.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:You said the same of Bute and look how that turned out/.

True. Groves is a better fighter though than Bute

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I prefer to give the winner of a fight credit rather than find any excuse to downplay a win, Froch won fair and square, he knew of Taylors weaknesses and took full advantage of that.

When people do the same about his opponent, then it's fair game to scrutinise his wins. Even the lucky ones.

Bit early to be saying that, strange how Froch beats Bute and he becomes an average boxer.

azania wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I prefer to give the winner of a fight credit rather than find any excuse to downplay a win, Froch won fair and square, he knew of Taylors weaknesses and took full advantage of that.

When people do the same about his opponent, then it's fair game to scrutinise his wins. Even the lucky ones.

What lucky ones?

Taylor and the Dirrell fight. I had Direll ahead.

Taylor was no part luck, he knocked him out and Dirrell ran for most of the fight so didn't deserve to win but saying such things goes along with your new found opinion that Froch is an idiot.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Taylor was no part luck, he knocked him out and Dirrell ran for most of the fight so didn't deserve to win but saying such things goes along with your new found opinion that Froch is an idiot.

Ran? He didn't fight the fight Froch wanted and out boxed him. He deserved the win.

Nothing to do with Froch personally. I had Dirrell winning the fight when watching it. Froch is an idiot, but I also like Tyson Fury.

You should probably watch the fight again, Dirrell could have outboxed him but was more content with making sure Froch was nowhere near him, he clicked into gear around the 10th but by the time he'd done the square root of nothing.

Froch was gifted a decision imo.

azania wrote:
Johnson was fighting out of him prime weight for the first time in a decade when he fought Froch. One can argue that he was still getting used to the weight loss also.

Johnson as done before he fought Froch. Yet he gave him fits. Groves handled him with ease.

Not true, He TKOed Alan Green as a S Middleweight when he entered the super 6 as a S Middleweight, the only fight at the weight he has ever won, another reason Groves probably fought him.

You cant possibly tell me the Johnson that fought Groves was not completely and utterly shop warn.... I will give it to him he was still durable and how he was not stopped I dont know, But he was gassed by about the 5th rnd throwing for about 15 seconds a round.. no head movement... It would be interesting if someone could compare the punch stats with how many punches thrown... I would guess allot less than in the USA against Froch.

azania wrote:Froch was gifted a decision imo.

To be honest i'm not at all surprised you say that, makes it far easier than to just say it was a close fight.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:You should probably watch the fight again, Dirrell could have outboxed him but was more content with making sure Froch was nowhere near him, he clicked into gear around the 10th but by the time he'd done the square root of nothing.

I thought Direll did well againt Froch and at times outboxed him, but it was only in bursts and the rest of the time he was running holding, complaining to the reff, he was not able to keep Froch off him and was lucky to just have one point taken away as his holding was constant.. for that reason I felt it was a fair result, but Dirrell is better than Groves as well anyway.

I suppose it was a peak Johnson who lost to Froch and not a shop worn fighter. Or a shop worn fighter giving it his all and finding the fountain of youth just for Froch.

He was shot when he fought Froch as much as when he fought Groves. GG did a number on him.

GG didn't allow him to fight the way Froch was incapable of doing.

Not really that difficult when it comes to Johnson is it. He was regressing when he fought Froch and had aged another 18 months by the time he fought Groves and as such had regressed further.

azania wrote:I suppose it was a peak Johnson who lost to Froch and not a shop worn fighter. Or a shop worn fighter giving it his all and finding the fountain of youth just for Froch.

He was shot when he fought Froch as much as when he fought Groves. GG did a number on him.

GG didn't allow him to fight the way Froch was incapable of doing.

Thats just it, he was shop worn when he fought Froch, what do you think that made him 18 months and two more defeats later?

Rowley wrote:Not really that difficult when it comes to Johnson is it. He was regressing when he fought Froch and had aged another 18 months by the time he fought Groves and as such had regressed further.

Don't bring crystal clear logic into this.

azania wrote:More like Taylor gassed as he did against Abrahams. Look at his fights with Hop. Gassed also. WhenPavlik beat him he gassed after 5 rounds. He is a stamina free zone.

Is he friends with David Hayes and Chris Eubanks?