England 15 for Argentina

First topic message reminder :

I'd go for a few changes rather than wholesale! Gone are the days of the Argentinians being a easy game!

1. Vunipola
2. Hartkey
3. Cole
4. Lawes
5. Attwood
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Vunipola
9. Youngs
10. Farrell
11. Yarde
12. Twelvetrees
13. Burrell
14. Wade
15. Brown

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

sirtidychris wrote:Late squad change from lancaster:

1) Abdendanon
2) M Tait
3) Watson
4) Miller
5) Cook
6) D Armitage
7) Balshaw
8) Dollman
9) Goode
10) Daly
11) Foden
12) Brown
13) A Tait
14) Pennell
15) Williams

Don't understand how you could leave out Phil Vickery from that side?

16) Phil Vickery covering the fullback position and Waterboy /Kicking Coach/ Physio/ any RFU pig insemination needs

sirtidychris wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

sirtidychris wrote:Late squad change from lancaster:

1) Abdendanon
2) M Tait
3) Watson
4) Miller
5) Cook
6) D Armitage
7) Balshaw
8) Dollman
9) Goode
10) Daly
11) Foden
12) Brown
13) A Tait
14) Pennell
15) Williams

Don't understand how you could leave out Phil Vickery from that side?

Subs bench.... Cueto, Monye, Matt Perry, Tim Stimpson, Josh lewsey, Jason Robsinson
Player/Coach : Phil Vickery covering the fullback position  

I have heard Paul Hull, Jon Callard and Simon Hodgkinson are available too. Dr Webb as the team Doctor?

The two England players under most pressure on Saturday?

1. Chris Ashton
2. Billy Twelvetrees

The two England players for whom rain will limit their opportunities on Saturday?

1. Christ Ashton
2. Billy Twelvetrees

The one thing we all want to see from England on Saturday?

1. A fast tempo interpassing game using backs and forwards leading to line breaks and tries.

What the rain will prevent on Saturday?

1. A fast tempo interpassing game using backs and forwards leading to line breaks and tries.

We'll do well to get out of this game with a "W" so everyone can just forget about it.

And we can forget about competing with the Abs too.

They're going to murder us.

Tiger/Chief wrote:I must admit i personally would have Foden over every other 15 in the Northern Hemisphere

I would as well, but only if Halfpenny, Brown, Tait, Watson, Byrne, Kearney, Medard, Huget, Hogg, Kearney were injured

doctor_grey wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I dont see that Dr.
Brown looks very good week in week out and put in his position v Australia brought that performance to international level aswell.
He could be a bouncer, but i like that..hes tough, a fighter (obviously with out the fists)...thats the mentality i want in my England team...dont back down to noone. Something im starting to think barritt brings to the team...now that he's not there...

Also, i dont just want the England team to be solid. I want much more than that. I EXPECT every player to have the basics off...tackling rucking etc to a minimum standard, then i expect excellence following that.

Brown provides that in his ability to get past the 1st/2nd and often 3rd defender, and also with his huge boot etc.

Foden also offers more than "Solid" when on form so with the injuries im more than happy with him at wing. We have a luxury of quality players at FB.

Methinks we see Brown differently.  Physically gifted, no doubts.  It is the 90% above the shoulder which worries me.  In the match between Saints and Quins earlier this year (in a deluge, granted), Brown looked lost and confused.  Foden assured and confident.   I recall one other match, but can't remember which at the moment, I thought Brown appeared almost disinterested.  Other matches he smoked the opposition.  That's why I see him as hit and miss.  

Sorry, but I really do find that opinion bizarre. I've watched Brown week-in, week-out for 7 years and one of the best things about him is his consistency. Check on Comeallwithin - most Quins fans felt he was the only Quin who played consistently well through our dark patch early in the season. He had anger management issues early in his career but we've not seen any of that for 3 or 4 seasons. He was slow to accelerate when he first had a shot at international level; it wasn't a lack of outright gas, but he had a very rangy running style that took several yards to hit full pace - he's completely changed it now.

To my mind, the main issue with him playing on the wing was if anything too much consistency - he was still doing the "beat 2 defenders and take 2 more into the tackle" thing, but then trying to offload to a player who would have been there at club level but wasn't at international level. But over at the Stoop there are never calls for him to be dropped or rested.

Bathite wrote:

Tiger/Chief wrote:I must admit i personally would have Foden over every other 15 in the Northern Hemisphere

I would as well, but only if Halfpenny, Brown, Tait, Watson, Byrne, Kearney, Medard, Huget, Hogg, Kearney were injured

You'd seriously rather have Anthony Watson over Ben Foden?  I could see it in a couple of years,  but the kid is just breaking through at Premiership level at the moment.  Foden was one England's best players for two years before he got injured and when he is fit/ in form I'd say he is a match for any one of those players quoted (aside from 1/2p who has been playing unbelievably well this year).

Marler? Wow. That sounds like an odd call to me...

Triangulation wrote:

The two England players under most pressure on Saturday?

1. Chris Ashton
2. Billy Twelvetrees

The two England players for whom rain will limit their opportunities on Saturday?

1. Christ Ashton
2. Billy Twelvetrees

The one thing we all want to see from England on Saturday?

1. A fast tempo interpassing game using backs and forwards leading to line breaks and tries.

What the rain will prevent on Saturday?

1.  A fast tempo interpassing game using backs and forwards leading to line breaks and tries.

We'll do well to get out of this game with a "W" so everyone can just forget about it.

And we can forget about competing with the Abs too.

They're going to murder us.

 

We should beat Argentina either way but it could be very much an England/Italy 6N borefest type game.

I don't think the AB's will murder us but I do think we lack the tools to score enough points and keep the pressure up on them. Last year was built on great defense and basics - and we can do that bit again. But it was also built on an inspired performance from Manu which meant we scored points too. This time we don't have him and we don't have a replacement who could do something similar.

To beat the ABs you have to force them to defend. You have to keep a bit of ball to frustrate them. You have to put points on the board and you have to do all of that for 80 minutes.

We are not tooled up to do any of that.

They know that as well as we do.

They can just focus on their attacking patterns and nothing else.

They will come into Twickenham nice and relaxed but highly motivated.

All Blacks by 20+ to wreck our Autumn if Los Pumas dont do it first.

I think you underestimate your own team, especially if you think Arg can spoil the party. They can be got at too easily in loose and broken play, I would just try and hold them off up front instead of trying to steamroll them. It would be an ugly game that way.

Bathite wrote:

Tiger/Chief wrote:I must admit i personally would have Foden over every other 15 in the Northern Hemisphere

I would as well, but only if Halfpenny, Brown, Tait, Watson, Byrne, Kearney, Medard, Huget, Hogg, Kearney were injured

Are you deliberately including Kearney jr?

Also, biased though I am, I thought brown comfortably outplayed Foden when Saints came to the stoop this year, Foden offered v little in attack or defence except that one time North singlehandedly created a line break. I've only once seen Foden outplay Brown when they've been on opposite sides. But I am biased.

Brown has had specific training from Catt to help him make attacking decisions but I've never heard anybody who has watched him regularly at FB question his rugby brain. Sometimes he tries to do too much but that's it

I personally prefer Foden to Brown - Foden makes more yards per carry and Brown beats more defenders (but without making the yards). However, Brown played well against Australia, played well when asked toplay out of position on the wing and deserves to retain his position on the basis of his performances for England. Until he does not perform well, or Foden takes his game up to another level then Brown stays for me.

gregortree wrote:He bakes a mean cake now.

and feeds them to Thompson by the look of the legends match last weekend

doctor_grey wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Tiger/Chief wrote:What's the prob with Foden?

Good finisher
Good under the high ball
Good kicking game
Good defence
Good positional play
Very quick for a full back! Not out and out pace but quicker than Brown and Goode

Most other countries full backs also play wing! It also means that ANOTHER  player doesn't come in to the squad to learn systems etc

Two things.  

One - He simply doesn't ever play on the wing for Saints.  The other blokes must have some wing time for their clubs

Two - I think he should be starting at fullback for England.  Brown was fantastic for England last weekend.  But I do not see him as consistent and he worries me.  I prefer to see him as a bouncer in a bar somewhere.

Really??

Alongside Robshaw, he's probably been the most consistant player in the premiership and that is consistently high standards of rugby aswell.

Let's put Robshaw aside because I am not sure if he has been consistently great this term.  Brown worries me.  One match and he looks great,  Next one he looks like mum and dad were bro and sis.  Lookey, mate.  I want England to be solid from 1-15 and beyond.  If he can deliver a match like last week every week, I will be very happy.  But when I watch him, it seems he almost has one match on (and very on) and one match oblivious (or as Mike Tyson says bolivious).  Hoping I am wrong.

And I do think he would be a great bouncer.

So much disagreement with almost every word you say, but if that is what you see then nothing I can state will change that.

Care's in for Youngs on the bench according to Twitter.

Not that long ago nobody (except every Quins fan) wanted Brown at 15 for England because he was apparently solid, consistent but boring and lacking attacking prowess or X factor. Now that he has shown attacking prowess and X factor, people seem to have decided he blows hot and cold and is inconsistent. He's not, he's just consistently excellent, has probably been in our top 3 performers at Quins every match he has played for at least 2 seasons, but is also capable of match winning magic and whilst neither his technical or all-round game is absolutely perfect I would say he has as few flaws as any other international standard player. I genuinely do not even get where some people's opinions are coming from.

His flaws: does he have a good right boot? No
Can he overcommit in attack? Yes
Is his outright pacy? No
Has he made a couple of attacking errors for England, namely passing to Strettle too soon? Yes

Does Foden, even at his best that we haven't seen for several seasons, or any other 15 available or in fact in World rugby, not have flaws? Absolutely not, you could make a list for any player. However, if you want I'll produce Brown's stats for Club and Country and demonstrate that even out of position he is consistently positive. I can do the same for Robshaw, whom the press seemed desperate to destroy until they were forced to backtrack last week.
Nobody likes it when people start saying things about their club players like say Foden that we know from watching them every week aren't true

Mr Bounce wrote:Care's in for Youngs on the bench according to Twitter.

No worries here - shows our strength in depth in this position

Youngs being rested then.

Youngs apparently has a minor hip injury

ChequeredJersey wrote:Not that long ago nobody (except every Quins fan) wanted Brown at 15 for England because he was apparently solid, consistent but boring and lacking attacking prowess or X factor. Now that he has shown attacking prowess and X factor, people seem to have decided he blows hot and cold and is inconsistent. He's not, he's just consistently excellent, has probably been in our top 3 performers at Quins every match he has played for at least 2 seasons, but is also capable of match winning magic and whilst neither his technical or all-round game is absolutely perfect I would say he has as few flaws as any other international standard player. I genuinely do not even get where some people's opinions are coming from.

His flaws: does he have a good right boot? No
Can he overcommit in attack? Yes
Is his outright pacy? No
Has he made a couple of attacking errors for England, namely passing to Strettle too soon? Yes

Does Foden, even at his best that we haven't seen for several seasons, or any other 15 available or in fact in World rugby, not have flaws? Absolutely not, you could make a list for any player. However, if you want I'll produce Brown's stats for Club and Country and demonstrate that even out of position he is consistently positive. I can do the same for Robshaw, whom the press seemed desperate to destroy until they were forced to backtrack last week.
Nobody likes it when people start saying things about their club players like say Foden that we know from watching them every week aren't true

OK got it.  You are a Quins supporter and see Brown almost every match.  I don't, but I have been consistent since last season that I don't trust Brown (most especially around women and children).  And from then I thought he can be dynamic one match (or even one half) and make bad mental errors the next.  Consequently, not a fan.  As a Saints fan, I see Foden regularly.  Last season was a disaster for him because of his ankle injury (from which I have now confirmed he was rushed back and is now healthy).  His form is now back to where it was before the injury.  I do prefer him to Brown. Not getting into my guy is better than yours because we can't agree - I am telling you I never trusted Brown, but Foden's last season was also obviously far below par.  

Not sure where you are going except to say you prefer Robshaw and Brown.  Brown clearly had the best match I have ever seen him play last weekend.  It was terrific.  And he wasn't helped by the rest of the back line playing like Grandma Moses.  No doubts, I would really like to see more dynamism from our out half, but I fear we are stuck.  

Is Robshaw the bloke to lead us forwards?  Not sure.  Someone mentioned the 'White Orc' type.  I like that too.  But with few exceptions we have a bunch of choir boys.  And not for nothing, without a little abrasiveness, they don't win.

England's starting lineup from today's ESPN:
Mike Brown, Chris Ashton, Joel Tomkins, Billy Twelvetrees, Ben Foden, Owen Farrell, Lee Dickson; Joe Marler, Dylan Hartley, David Wilson, Joe Launchbury, Courtney Lawes, Tom Wood, Chris Robshaw (captain), Billy Vunipola

Well I feel confident abut 9,2, 3, 4(maybe), 5, 6, 7, 8. Feck it. I better lace up my boots. We could well be in for a hiding from hell. If Lancaster underestimates Los Pumas, I want him fired.

England to stuff the Argies by 15.

England 24-9 Argentina (3 tries to nil)

Duty281 wrote:England to stuff the Argies by 15.

England 24-9 Argentina (3 tries to nil)

not enough. Needs to be more. They had a partial team in the summer, but so did we. Similar scorelines are required.

doctor_grey wrote:not enough.  Needs to be more.  They had a partial team in the summer, but so did we.  Similar scorelines are required.

Would agree in principke with that but sadly doubt it will happen. With what I would assume are Farrell snr's tactics it seems highly unlikely

England by 10 .

Great forward play by England...good lineout. If lawes can standout there today parling will lose his England spot..

Good game this..

Big test for this England scrum.

It is..

I think the scrum will keep the arg in this game but we'll sneaknit in the end

England playing well b y the sound of it. Apart from sloppy penalties...

England look so much more relaxed.....poor finish by Ashton though...he has to score that

Well, we know Ashton is only playing because of injury. Oh dear. Form just gone...

36 .. What a try

Oh good

Really happy for Twelvetrees

That's it Billy...gr8at stuff.

Ashton didn't answer his critics not finishing that and then dropped it just before Billys try

Now, don't take the foot off the gas, lads...

Classy forward play from England..

Poor pass there

Farrell over played that a bit. But good to see him try these things..

Hartley impressive aswell. He's done more carrying in this game than I can remember...looks up for it..

Dickson getting the ball out nice and quick

Fairly one way traffic at present it seems.

Ashton's got this game to get his mojo again and it doesn't look good for him. Sorry not to see Wade playing myself. But we have plenty of depth there it seems

We've certainly played at a high tempo! Can hardly believe there's only 7 mins left in the half...

The problem with Ashton though is Do we put yarde or wade on v the ABs...

Like the tempo and pace we are playing at today...

Hartley playing well too, certainly hungry for it

dickson, awesome quick ball. loving it.

hartley best game in years so far

I think we should start with Ashton with wade on the bench