England 15 for Argentina

First topic message reminder :

I'd go for a few changes rather than wholesale! Gone are the days of the Argentinians being a easy game!

1. Vunipola
2. Hartkey
3. Cole
4. Lawes
5. Attwood
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Vunipola
9. Youngs
10. Farrell
11. Yarde
12. Twelvetrees
13. Burrell
14. Wade
15. Brown

I'm probably gonna get shot down here but did anyone else think England were.... Slow? By that I mean the whole team lacked any pace genuinely think Lawes and Launchberry could keep up in a foot race with Tompkins and 12trees!! Brown is elusive but not much of an attacking threat when joining the line off set piece and Robshaw... There was one point he was chasing a up and under and he looked like a prop, our hooker is our fastest forward and if Ashton continues to follow the play as he does we can never spin the ball wide in the right wing.

I cannot say strongly enough that we need to pick a 13 who can threaten the opposition line with ball in hand because without one Ashton might as well not be playing, cos all he's doing is following the play waiting for a break which never comes.

He's not the best kick chaser in the world but to be fair wade is probably worse at making straight up tackles as seen on the lions, he is however devastating for wasps when they wing it wide quickly and create overlaps.

I think where the calls were marginal and the players last week weren't great, we should see what the other options are like. That means, to me, maybe try Attwood, maybe another player at 12 or 13 (both is silly), maybe try Wade. Also I might start Hartley as our lineout wasn't great

Corbs
Youngs
Cole
Lawes
Launchbury
Wood
Robshaw
Vunipola

Youngs
Farrell
Yarde
Twelvetrees
Trinder
Wade
Brown

Triangulation wrote:
In the lead up to the Cook Cup match I was overly pessimistic about England. I was wrong. I apologise to anyone who I annoyed.

No worries Tri. Dare I ask how you feel about our next match?  

Only changes should be:

Hartley in fir Youngs- we can't afford to lose so much lineout ball and having Lawes club hooker at 2 can't be a bad thing.

Youngs in for Dickson- again Dickson has shown that he just doesn't have the extra edge to step up to Int level. Especially when partnered with Farrell there is just too little threat ball in hand to worry the defence. Youngs looked like a man on a mission when he came on

Ive defended Ashton when most have been calling for his head...but im afraid im now beginning to think he needs to go now.

With our current (uncreative midfield) we need a bit more creativity out wide...Ahstons game is not about that where as Wade can make things happen and create chances for himself. Also his defence is no worse than Ashtons.

Id make the change for this game.

yappysnap wrote:Only changes should be:

Hartley in fir Youngs- we can't afford to lose so much lineout ball and having Lawes club hooker at 2 can't be a bad thing.

Youngs in for Dickson- again Dickson has shown that he just doesn't have the extra edge to step up to Int level. Especially when partnered with Farrell there is just too little threat ball in hand to worry the defence. Youngs looked like a man on a mission when he came on

I agree that change needs to be made Yappy, but im concerned that Youngs seems to blow hot and cold...he looked top class when he came on...changed the game, but he could start on Saturday and look totally out of place at this level. I'd love to see him really start to show some consistency, he certainly has the ability...

Continuity V testing other players is a difficult call for Lancaster, especially with the All Blacks match coming up. It would great to have our establsihed 1st choice team play Argentina as preparation for the All Blacks, but we are still a long way from knowing our best team.

Front row: Corbs is a cert if fit, but Youngs V Hartley debate will persist for a long time. I would stick with Youngs. Wilson to replace Cole....that is a big call, but Wilson should start against Argentina to give Cole a bit of a break plus he deserves a start.

2nd row: big area of uncertainty. You could replace both Lawes and Launchbury with Attwood and Parling, but a new combination right now may be dodgy. I am really not sure what is best, but I would like to see Attwood start to see how he goes.

Back row: only debate is no.8. Morgan could replace Billy?

Scrum half: has to be Youngs for me

Fly half: has to remain Farrell

Wings: Yarde needs another go and I would start Wade - his defence is hardly likely to be weaker than Ashtons.

Centres: Lancaster has already said he is sticking with 36 so I would keep the same combo and hope the continuity pays off. It would be great to get Eastmond on the bench as he would offer some variety.

Fullback: Brown. I would love to give Foden a start but need to let Brown get some practice with his wingers before the All Blacks.

And I am not underestimating Argentina by mentioning the All Blacks a few times, but we all know they are the ultimate test. Selection this Sat is a difficult task.

Theres a lot to be said of continuity in selection, however with so many players pushing for starting places in key areas, specifically in the pack, i'd like to see Lancaster give a few of the challengers a run, if not from the start at least an extended run from the bench, not just 5 minutes at the end. Looking soley at the pack, as for me this is where there is the most competition for places, I would like to see Lancaster go for:

1. M. Vunipola
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Attwood
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. B. Vunipola

16. Webber
17. Marler
18. Wilson
19. Lawes
20. Morgan

With Marler and Wilson coming on at half time, and Webber and Morgan having an exteneded runout of 30 mins.

This is not a slight on the other players i have missed out, specifically Youngs and Parling, I feel we know what they can do and what they bring to the party and its time to define who our best 2 are in each position, thus giving everyone a chance to prove their worth, and once that is decided we then move forward with a more stable selection for the 6N and the summer tour. I'd hate it to be this time next year and we're still debating over who 6 of our starting pack are.

Also, I've deliberately left Corbisiero out so that, if fit, he can get a full run out with the Saints this weekend before coming back into contention next week.

Would it be worth dropping Foden from the bench to put Eastmond in there? 30 mins against the tough Argie defense could teach Lancaster a lot.

yappysnap wrote:Would it be worth dropping Foden from the bench to put Eastmond in there? 30 mins against the tough Argie defense could teach Lancaster a lot.

With Flood on the bench covering 10/12, if we have Foden he covers 15 first but also 11 and 14. Having eastmond on there it'll limit the positions we cover. Of course if you've got 36 starting and Eastmond on the bench, there is the arguement that you've got 10 covered already and could afford to drop Flood from the 23 and then keep Foden in the 23.

Personnally, I think you need Flood on the bench, but who the other back replacement should be, I don't know.

Eastmond can cover wing though...he played wing in League didnt he (i think) and he was wing when he came on for the Saxons against scotland.

We could always drop flood have Eastmond cover 10, 12...

Infact Eastmond and Foden would cover 9, 10, 11,12,13,14,15 in two players...

Technically

I'm definitely not worried about Eastmond covering wing, hell we've seen Danny Care out there on occasion, Eastmond is a very good runner so wing cover should be the least of our concerns

Care is pretty quick though, Eastmond could definitely cover wing end game, I'd never ever advocate starting him there though

Oh I agree with you there, just saying its not worth leaving him off the bench because we might lack wing cover

hugehandoff wrote:
...

Wings: Yarde needs another go and I would start Wade - his defence is hardly likely to be weaker than Ashtons.

...

For me there are 2-3 players in most positions that are all of a par and you can make the case for any of them. In that scenario I think continuity is no bad thing until the incumbent plays their way out or someone outside can step up a notch and demand inclusion. However, I'm with you in wanting to see Wade start. From what I've seen he really is the best English wing going at the moment by quite a stretch. To quote Sir Clive "Everybody keeps telling me Wade is too small — but so were Neil Back and Jason Robinson so that’s the end of that conversation."

He'd be fine as a 23 though. Covering centre and back three If needed. This is Argentina, they'll be physical as bell but one newbie coming off the bench at wing shouldnt even come close to costing us the game.

Could Wade not take Yardes spot and then Lancaster makes the tough call come NZ game. Honestly it's so early in both their careers that they shouldn't worry about being rotated now.

Playing devils advocate Yards had IMO a far worse game then Sharples and looked what happened to him last season (or the season before).

I like the cut of Yarde's jib but how the hell did he let out of position outside centre Adam Ashley-Cooper run him down like that?

Not happy.

Eastmond also went to FB during the Saxons v Scotland game. Frankly he's got the skill set to cover most positions. I'd like to see him on the bench with Flood, although Foden is only a whisker away from the starting team.

The pack is a tough one, I think it needs to be fairly similar to build some momentum. This is what I think Lancs will go with:

1. A Corbisiero
2. D Hartley
3. D Cole (D Wilson)
4. J Launchbury
5. G Parling (D Attwood)
6. T Wood
7. C Robshaw
8. B Vunipola

16. T Youngs 17. M Vunipola 18. D Wilson (D Cole) 19. C Lawes 20. B Morgan

In brackets are the players I would like to see start.

Triangulation wrote:

I like the cut of Yarde's jib but how the hell did he let out of position outside centre Adam Ashley-Cooper run him down like that?

Not happy.

I'd rate AAC's cover defence as possibly the best in the world, he's not the first young winger to struggle there so I won't blame him too much, it was his own defence and silly late tackle that annoyed me more

Love to see Eastmond at 13...

http://www.rfu.com/news/2013/november/news-articles/051113_squad_update_wade

Mako and Attwood ( ) and Trinder and Eastmond ( ) sent home

Sounds like Wade could play, maybe?

Care still there too, and Burrell and Webber

Think this means Corbs is fit and Parling too

I reckon/hope it may just be Corbs & Wade to come in to the side for Saturday.

If Mako Vunipola is going home who's going to play 10?

Mako > Marler for me, he had a good game on Saturday and did nothing to warrant being dropped out of the squad, even if Corbs is fit.

I would have started with Mako and looked to give Corbs the majority of the 2nd half

Mako is injured

Doh  

Ignore me

He may also have rested Mako for this one even if he were fit - Marler and Corbs would both benefit more from game time before NZ.

It's interesting to see Lancaster has kept all three scrum halves, is one carrying a knock or is he just letting them push each other right up to the last second for a place in the match day 23?

A certain despicable red top reports today an "exclusive" that Wade is starting vs Argentina

Same one that said Wood was England Captain?

Triangulation wrote:

A certain despicable red top reports today an "exclusive" that Wade is starting vs Argentina

That doesn't help narrow them down!

No bad thing if Wade does get a run though.

Its the one that isn't actually a red top on paper, but its the lowest of the red tops in actual content but thinks its aimed at the "middle class"

The Guardian?

South West Saint wrote:It's interesting to see Lancaster has kept all three scrum halves, is one carrying a knock or is he just letting them push each other right up to the last second for a place in the match day 23?

I suspect more to do with injury clear up progress this week, but will also serve to keep them keen.

Bathman_in_London wrote:The Guardian?

  

Agree with bam bam...if Mako is injured / sent home, hopefully Marler starts, and Corbs can get a run out off the bench.

Does this mean a back 3 of
Yarde
Wade
Brown

Now that has some spark!...just need to make sure we get our big guys smashing holes and giving them a chance to work their magic...

EDIT: Im beginning to think Burrell in their might give us a bit of Oomph aswell.

England squad preparing for Argentina
Forwards (14)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Backs (13)
Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
Joel Tomkins (Saracens)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)
Marland Yarde (London Irish)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Christian Wade (London Wasps)

The following 10 players have been released back to their Aviva Premiership clubs ahead of this weekend’s LV= Cup Round 1:

Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby)
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby)
Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks)
Henry Trinder (Gloucester Rugby)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)

I think I read somewhere that T Youngs' wife is due to give birth very soon and he may have to rush off to the bedside (or sit smoking in his gentlemen's club, whatever it is fathers-to-be do these days). Hence Webbers inclusion.

With Parling back it'll be interesting to see how the hooker/line-out caller situation is resolved with Saints/Tigers combos available.

I reckon Hartley will start anyway.

With the potential last minute disruption of Youngs, Hartley has got to start surely.

Still think there is a biased towards London and Midland based clubs within the England set up, the Westcountry is hit hard with 7 out of the 10 being sent home.

Not sure about a bias, but of those 7 I would definitely have found room for Attwood and Eastmond

that must be hard for mako sent home seeing is brother billy still there

BamBam wrote:Not sure about a bias, but of those 7 I would definitely have found room for Attwood and Eastmond

I agree with Attwood and Eatmond.  

Scrumpy wrote:Still think there is a biased towards London and Midland based clubs within the England set up, the Westcountry is hit hard with 7 out of the 10 being sent home.

Gloucester need all the help they can get at the moment in the AP.
Burns needs a bit more penalty practice at Kingsholm.
Trinder is a class centre, glad to have him back.

gregortree wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:Still think there is a biased towards London and Midland based clubs within the England set up, the Westcountry is hit hard with 7 out of the 10 being sent home.

Gloucester need all the help they can get at the moment in the AP.
Burns needs a bit more penalty practice at Kingsholm.
Trinder is a class centre, glad to have him back.

I suggest some scrum practice might help. 

Scrumpy, that too, although Burns success rate vs Wasps was just 57% so needs more work.
I see the England camp have kindly never touched our front five though.

Well looks like Wade, Corbs and Twelvetrees are definate starts...
Mako has strain knee ligaments.

Infact probably only scrum half, hooker and second rows to confirm though i think the only one will be the scrum half with Youngs coming in.

I noticed the pack didnt miss one tackle v the Aussies.

That would mean-
1 Corbs
2 Youngs
3 Cole
4 Launchbury
5 Lawes
6 Wood
7 Robshaw
8 Vunipola

9 Youngs
10 Farrell
11 Yarde
12 Twelvetrees
13 Tomkins
14 Wade
15 Brown