England 15 for Argentina

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I'd go for a few changes rather than wholesale! Gone are the days of the Argentinians being a easy game!

1. Vunipola
2. Hartkey
3. Cole
4. Lawes
5. Attwood
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Vunipola
9. Youngs
10. Farrell
11. Yarde
12. Twelvetrees
13. Burrell
14. Wade
15. Brown

I'd still be surprised to see Ashton dropped next week. He could've been a while ago now and hasn't, so think he'll still be there next week.

Good solid win for England, but Ashton is a problem for me he was Lucky to get away with his try as I think he was out of play apart from that he was very average again yarde should replace him next week imo

Tomkins doesn't look the part to me

Was Ashton worse than foden on the other wing though?

Flattered by the final score. Poor second half, Danny Care disappointing when he came on

Yes

New Zealand might have raised an eyebrow slightly at the first half. Might. Slightly.

The game gives as much you worry about as hope for looking ahead a week. We are still underdogs and a win would be a surprise. Usual situation against the ABs. No change there at present. Still, you never know. A friend of a friend has a mate who's uncle's wife's sister's friend works at the hotel they are staying in before the match. Wonder how much a little laxative would help the cause...

Pretty good first half from England. They looked to coast it in the 2nd half. Two X 40 minute performances so far. They will need a full 80 minute performance next week.

A resounding win for the Scots too.

Foden's not a winger so even if he were worse than Ashton (he wasn't) that wouldn't be a great win by Ashton

I'd start Wade and Yarde next week. I'd probably start Ben Youngs as well.

1st impressions – SL needs to stop talking about rising up the rankings, without Manu we don’t have a single back who’s good enough to be ranked in a top 4 side (maybe Brown), our pack is doing the damage here. The current 10/12/13 line is pedestrian – we’re desperate for Manu & Barritt to return. And why keep bringing Flood on at centre, for gawd’s sake – FH or nowhere. Thanks to Dickson, and goodnight. I have been a reluctant Splash supporter, but after his missed try on 20 mins I think his ship has sailed (injuries permitting). Amusing that 12T showed him how to power thro 2-3 tacklers a few minutes later.

The pack was mostly good: Corbs did the business, and Hartley was excellent (sorry, TY doesn’t have the basics other than off the bench). I thought this was a game Attwood might have suited. Morgan seems to have found his level – an impressive 10-20 min cameo. And please God don’t let Wood & Robshaw get injured – ever.

B.Young's Morgan yarde should all start next week

I reckon we should start Baxter for Lancaster......

Should have been Twelvetrees and Burrell all along.........

Great first half from England, very good game from the England pack and for me Hartley, Lawes, Launchberry and Wood all stood out. Dickson was whipping out the quick passes in the first half but still utterly non plus with the england backs. Twelvetrees was bipolar did some good things did some terrible things and despite what greenwood said he was taken off cause 3 passes in a row went behind the man and against new zealand his try would have been stopped and he would have butchered an opportunity by not passing...Why the hell burrell wasn't on the bench i dont know. Ashton was AWFUL AGAIN, his walk-in try looked out to me, he butchered another walk in 10 minutes earlier, his passes sucked, his kicking was pants and he looked slow, he couldn't beat 1 man !!! Tompkins was basically invisible again (was he playing ?), Farrell was okay but started crabbing and standing deep ARGGGHHH. Basically our backline play requires Manu Tuilagi and without him we cant do anything.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Well played England. A very fine first half that would put temors in most sides. Powerful ball carrying, dynamic work at the ruck and a quick defensive line that shut down Argentina very well.

England look competent and worthy third place ranking holders. If they can extend their 40 minutes to 80 they will challenge any side. They'll be tough to break down next week for NZ, who will need to be patient and it should be a cracker of a test.

Mods!! Someones cloned GE's account!!

tigerleghorn wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Well played England. A very fine first half that would put temors in most sides. Powerful ball carrying, dynamic work at the ruck and a quick defensive line that shut down Argentina very well.

England look competent and worthy third place ranking holders. If they can extend their 40 minutes to 80 they will challenge any side. They'll be tough to break down next week for NZ, who will need to be patient and it should be a cracker of a test.

Mods!! Someones cloned GE's account!!

Yes, must admit I read that and didn't quite know what to say... A very gracious post - perhaps a tad over generous?

As GE says, if England can put 80 minutes together then we've got the makings of a good match next week.

sirtidychris wrote:Great first half from England, very good game from the England pack and for me Hartley, Lawes, Launchberry and Wood all stood out. Dickson was whipping out the quick passes in the first half but still utterly non plus with the england backs. Twelvetrees was bipolar did some good things did some terrible things and despite what greenwood said he was taken off cause 3 passes in a row went behind  the man and against new zealand his try would have been stopped and he would have butchered an opportunity by not passing...Why the hell burrell wasn't on the bench i dont know. Ashton was AWFUL AGAIN, his walk-in try looked out to me, he butchered another walk in 10 minutes earlier, his passes sucked, his kicking  was pants and he looked slow, he couldn't beat 1 man !!! Tompkins was basically invisible again (was he playing ?), Farrell was okay but started crabbing and standing deep ARGGGHHH. Basically our backline play requires Manu Tuilagi and without him we cant do anything.    

Unless you go with a 4/4 forwards/backs split on the bench a replacement centre is not usually included.

Granted, Flood replaced 12T, but he was primarily covering Farrell.

What was the point in bringing on Flood at centre? Farrell shows again a lack of ability to run a dangerous backline. He has his merits, but he needs to show more if England are to progress. Flood may not be the long term answer, but he can certainly run a backline, the rest of his game is solid and he is experienced at this level. But he is wasted at 12 , especially if Farrell is at 10. And of the 2 centres why sub 12trees, who at least looked somewhat threatening today? Tomkins is a nothing player at this level.

Lancaster and Farrell holding this team back I think. To much of a Saracens/Northern obsession in selections and tactics. Ashton shouldn't be anywhere near the squad. Tomkins is a waste of a shirt when we could be blooding someone like Eastmond or Burrell, who would at least offer some threat. Farrell should not be guaranteed 80 minutes. And we need more than a Saracens based gameplan against good sides. Especially when the England squad are nowhere near as efficient at it than Sarries are.

For 20 mins England faltered, but overall very good performance,
]
I wonder how GE is going to spin this win!!

Hound,

For sure you wouldn't go 4/4 but the three should have been Care, Flood, Burrell. Full back is covered, worst came to the worst Burrell could play on the wing but as the game went when twlevetrees was playing cack Burrell could have got 20-30 minutes, instead we had goode who came on at 73 mins for a pointless cap. When the backline play was stalling Burrell would have provided impetus and would have been a nice cap to come on when the game is won against tiring opposition and show what he can do...

stub wrote:

tigerleghorn wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Well played England. A very fine first half that would put temors in most sides. Powerful ball carrying, dynamic work at the ruck and a quick defensive line that shut down Argentina very well.

England look competent and worthy third place ranking holders. If they can extend their 40 minutes to 80 they will challenge any side. They'll be tough to break down next week for NZ, who will need to be patient and it should be a cracker of a test.

Mods!! Someones cloned GE's account!!

Yes, must admit I read that and didn't quite know what to say... A very gracious post - perhaps a tad over generous?

As GE says, if England can put 80 minutes together then we've got the makings of a good match next week.

  

the calm before the storm. GE is very nervous

A game of two halves, for me Englands first half was the performance to take away from this weekend. The forwards showed their A game, the backs managed some fluency and with a little more control at 9/10 and Wade or Yarde on the wings we could have been further ahead.

The second half you have to tip your hats to Argentina, they went back to their roots playing the ref well and kicking the points. I lost count of the early shoves in the lineout, early shoves at the scrum, off feet at rucks and playing the player in the air that occured. It all paid off though and England will be upset that they didn't get back on top of it.

Players wise i'm seriously thinking that Webber may have a look in for the 6N's. Youngs just can't control the lineout! We lost three key throw-ins in the second half two of which were needed to help build attacking momentum and one which was a key defensive lineout. Looking at the NZ game though only changes should be Ashton out and B Youngs in. Attwood too might be worth benching in favour of mr invisible.

Lastly congrats to Marler on a very strong showing. I was a little worried by him starting but he stepped up well and looked assured. Worth noting the forwards lost all forward power in the second half once he came off...

Haven't seen the game, but sounds like a very decent first half performance followed by a so-so one in the second half.

Will be a fantastic game next week for England - little pressure, great atmosphere, and a chance to play at the home of rugby against the World Champions hell-bent on revenge.

Can't wait!

maverickmak wrote:What was the point in bringing on Flood at centre? Farrell shows again a lack of ability to run a dangerous backline. He has his merits, but he needs to show more if England are to progress. Flood may not be the long term answer, but he can certainly run a backline, the rest of his game is solid and he is experienced at this level. But he is wasted at 12 , especially if Farrell is at 10. And of the 2 centres why sub 12trees, who at least looked somewhat threatening today? Tomkins is a nothing player at this level.

Lancaster and Farrell holding this team back I think. To much of a Saracens/Northern obsession in selections and tactics. Ashton shouldn't be anywhere near the squad. Tomkins is a waste of a shirt when we could be blooding someone like Eastmond or Burrell, who would at least offer some threat. Farrell should not be guaranteed 80 minutes. And we need more than a Saracens based gameplan against good sides. Especially when the England squad are nowhere near as efficient at it than Sarries are.

Just seen SA beat wales with a very Sarries esque gameplan.........we're still winning and against good sides. Next week will be a wake up call but I expect a different side starting.

That was a funny old game.

Excellent first half and then England seemed to take their foot off the gas (partly due to Argentina improving though). You just can't do that at this level. The very best sides don't lose the intensity. The result was never really in doubt though.

Good defence by England though and only one try conceded so far in the Autumn. They'll have to redouble their efforts next week though.

Scrum went ok considered this is Argentina's strength. Wilson didn't look out of place at all. Good to see Corbs back in.

Hartley's all round game was excellent. Youngs' line-out throwing is a real weakness at the moment.

Launchberry linked play very well and put in good hits.

I know captaincy is not all about shouting but I sometimes think Robshaw is a little too quiet when the going gets tough (like a decent period of the 2nd half today).

Pleased that Twelvetrees had much improved game. Powerful try and some more confident passing.

Brown I thought had a good game again (not quite as standout as last week but I think that's to do with more of the side stepping up compared to last week).

Wood was everywhere.

All in all a good win, but it's still difficult to see quite where this side is at present. Two wins that at paper are impressive somehow are a little unsatisfying. Such a shame Tuilagi is injured. Would love to see him in there when 12T is playing well. Not sure about Tomkins.

The wing situation is going to be interesting. I have the feeling Lancaster will go with experience.

"Brown I thought had a good game again (not quite as standout as last week but I think that's to do with more of the side stepping up compared to last week)."

yep everyone looked good first half.. No one stood out!!

I also thought Ashton looked fine.. He got himself in to good positions to receive the ball, and seemed to get better throughout the game.

He is such an easy target, every mistake he makes is magnified. I would start him next week.

It would be a big call now to give Wade his first real chance against NZ. Yarde def back in but I think there are question marks about Ashton still. Think he should have scored his opportunity earlier in the 1st half and I'll just say his actual try was close to being not grounded. Looking forward to next week in the hope we have a repeat from last eyar but I'm not expecting it with any real confidence!

Ashton provides no threat now. A better finisher in better form, with more confidence would have finished his first chance. And my mum could have scored his second which in replays looks like he actually cocked it up anyway! His only tactic when receiving the ball when he isn't being given a walk in or from a high ball, is to spot the nearest cluster of forwards and pile into them with minimal effect. He isn't even good defensively, and let plenty slip down his channel. Why not give the shirt to somebody who might be able to make something of it. They can hardly do any worse. Ashton should have been dropped ages ago.

Tomkins clearly isn't going to good enough at this level. Why not use the opportunity of losing Tuilagi to blood someone who might actually pose a threat? It would be worth playing Burrell or Eastmond there.

England's backs are going to progress with Farrell at 10 either. He has his merits, but it is frightening when he is guaranteed 80 minutes despite the backline consistently being cack, and the pack producing plenty of good ball. Insult to Flood being brought on to play 12 when things are clearly not working in the backline. he isn't going to influence things easily from 12. Why not give Flood a chance to change things up? And why sub Twelvetrees and not Tomkins? Twelvetrees at least looked something of a threat at times.

Bomber and Daddy need to get over their favourites and their obsessions if England are to progress from being a decent side, to a great one.

Did anyone think the obstruction call against Argentina when their flyhalf went over was wrong?

Refs get things wrong sometimes, however over the last two England games the better team on the day won

Just answer the question mystir, I didn't suggest that england didn't deserve to win.

No

I thought hevwas wrong

I dont remember it, I was watching football as well as rugby at the same time. I just had a feeling you asked due to last weeks decision and possible reaction from some posters

Awful second half from England. And Ashton is rubbish.

just watched the france nz game, just goes to show how important decent centres and wingers are...fritz, fickou, fofana, nonu, smith, pitauau, jane, medard all looked dangerous everytime they touched the ball !!!! we have tomkins and ashton, tompkins ive seen play 160 minutes of international rugby and haven't noticed him on the field and ashton looks like a colt player in comparison...as dangerous as a kitten wrapped in wool !!

Biltong wrote:I thought hevwas wrong

He was definitely right.

I thought Corbs would have started for you guys today, does he get thrown straight in now next week against the Blacks?

Bilts - Whilst there was definitely some obstruction it was no more significant than other stuff you see in almost every game - i.e. Robshaw holding his opposite number in the scrum in the lead up to Twelvetrees try. On balance I'd say it was a harsh call against Argentina - It would have been interesting to see the decision had it gone upstairs such as last week.

bedford - General opinion is that he was being eased back in after the injury. He got given the entire second half and looked full fit though. He was strong (if sometimes fortuitous) in the scrum but didn't show up much in the loose as was the case for most of our forwards in the second half. Yes I think he'll definitely start next week however - He's the best all round LH we have by some distance and we'll need him at his best against NZ.

I haven't watched it on replay, and missed what sounded like England's worst period rounding up my children from the bowels of Twickenham stadium, but I'd take a different view from what I saw. We were central and at pitch level in the South stand, so I had a player's eye view of some of the action.

The handling in the first half was very strong with a lot of good interplay between backs and forwards and England varying the point of attack to get over the gainline. If England can find the space to get that started next week, it will at least keep the AB defence busy.

Tomkins looked to me to be doing a lot of hard yards in that context. Generally he was standing wide with one winger outside him. If there was something on he was popping the ball to Brown or the winger outside, more often he was trucking it up, getting over the line and ensuring it was recycled. Not setting the world alight but actually adding a lot in terms of go forward and getting some fluent phases together. Tomkins also deserves a bit of credit for Twelvetrees' try - I think he fixed the defence sufficiently to create the gap.

Ashton butchered one chance and was daft in not grounding immediately on the other, but was noticeably more confident and willing to try things after his try - it may have been just what he needed. Brown was less visible than last week, but was doing a good job of drawing the man and then releasing the pass instead of trying to do it all himself.

Both iterations of the pack went well. Hartley was better than Youngs, and I think Cole made the difference in terms of starting to win scrum pens - but that was against the replacement Argentina front row. I didn't see much of the bad period, but Wood was copping a lot of flak from the ref on Reflink.

The defence was generally good, but they will need to be careful next week. Both AB tries resulted from drawing 2-3 players into the tackle in the centre channel and creating an overlap out wide. Had it been England playing, I think Brown or Foden might have stopped the first one (but conceded a pen or lineout to do so), but there'd have been no chance against the second if they'd ended up committing 3 players to one tackle, unless the choke tackle had come off.

That said, I think the French showed that a forward-dominated attack could create opportunities, but you need backs who can muscle their way through small gaps. For England, that probably means Twelvetrees, Brown or Youngs (or Care) playing off someone who can fix the defence. Without Tuilagi, that puts a big burden on Vunipola or Tomkins.

I've been slightly disappointed by Tomkins. He's meant to be a brilliant offloader but in the last two games he's just looked straight ahead and taken contact. Maybe that's partly just a lack of supporting runners, but he hasn't added a huge amount.

Risca Rev wrote:I'd still be surprised to see Ashton dropped next week. He could've been a while ago now and hasn't, so think he'll still be there next week.

He was as good as dropped for yesterday, but for Wade's injury.

Biltong wrote:Did anyone think the obstruction call against Argentina when their flyhalf went over was wrong?

He didn't actually get over, he was chopped down by a very good tackle from Brown about 6-7 metres short.

Cumbrian wrote:

Biltong wrote:Did anyone think the obstruction call against Argentina when their flyhalf went over was wrong?

He didn't actually get over,  he was chopped down by a very good tackle from Brown about 6-7 metres short.

Yeah, he was stopped well short. Who knows what might of happened. Not seen the replay properly to tell. Probably just enough obstruction.

That was literally the only time Argentina threatened the line which is a good thing for England's defence (or a bad reflection on Argentina's penetration - lack of).

Marginal call wasn't it? Here's to a few more for England next week!

thomh wrote:
He was as good as dropped for yesterday, but for Wade's injury.

In a weird sense it could work out well for Wade if he does start next week. You couldn't really get a tougher first test, but similarly expectations won't be high. A lot of credit to him if he gets the chance to impress with his footwork, but given the opposition no real damage to his reputation if he has a tough day at the office.

Biltong wrote:I thought hevwas wrong

Bilt, i thought the obstruction call was right for 2 reasons. 1 - the referee was right there and he blew up immediately, so he was in no doubt and didnt let the play run and then refer to the TMO. 2 - leguisamon ran into the first tackler, stepped to the left and with his left armed shoved away the second tackler. he initiated contact with both England defenders, and that feels like clear obstruction to me.

compared with Hartley last week, he was walking back to the england line with his back to Moore, and Moore ran into him trying to claim an obstruction. very different situation when you compare Leguisamon moving forwards and initiating contact with the 2 english defenders vs Hartley moving backwards being run into by Moore.

did your saffer refs website ever opine on last week's one?