England Squad for NZ Tour and 6N

First topic message reminder :

And I've posed it in that order for a reason. England have already said that their objective is to win the 6N (with France away first up, that's a pretty big ask...) but thy also have a 3 game tour to NZ coming up in which the first game will be played without the AP finalists.

So the challenge is - how do you put together the 6N squad so that whoever makes the final, you have enough players who've played together by the end of the 6N that England can field a half-decent side with players from the top two sides missing? I suppose the good news is that for once the EPS is a nice mix of players from various teams, but a Saints-Sarries final would be a serious hindrance.

The EPS on 1 Aug looked like this. Who would be your squad? And how would you prepare them?

England senior EPS:

Forwards: David Attwood (Bath Rugby), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints), Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), David Wilson (Bath Rugby), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints), Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Backs: Chris Ashton (Saracens), Brad Barritt (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Danny Care (Harlequins), Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers), Ben Foden (Northampton Saints), Alex Goode (Saracens), Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby), Christian Wade (London Wasps), Marland Yarde (London Irish), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

England Saxons:

Forwards: Calum Clark (Northampton Saints), Jordan Crane (Leicester Tigers), Paul Doran Jones (Harlequins), Will Fraser (Saracens), James Haskell (London Wasps), Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers), George Kruis (Saracens), Kearnan Myall (London Wasps), David Paice (London Irish), George Robson (Harlequins), Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers), Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks), Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers), Luke Wallace (Harlequins), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby), Nick Wood (Gloucester Rugby)

Backs: Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers), Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Elliot Daly (London Wasps), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Ugo Monye (Harlequins), Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby), Joe Simpson (London Wasps), David Strettle (Saracens), Mathew Tait (Leicester Tigers), Joel Tomkins (Saracens), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)

Agree about hartley. I have been critical of his performances for a long time now. But in this series he has played like a different person. He's carried hard, followed great lines, hes tackled, hit the rucks and hit the lineouts. But he cant now let that performance drop. He MUST continue to perform like that.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Agree about hartley. I have been critical of his performances for a long time now. But in this series he has played like a different person. He's carried hard, followed great lines, hes tackled, hit the rucks and hit the lineouts. But he cant now let that performance drop. He MUST continue to perform like that.

Indeed, i've seen him play to that level for Saints in the past but that has to be his benchmark now. With T Youngs and Webber we have some very capable options at hooker now.

How have some of the youngsters been doing at Falcons? Dom Barrow impressed in the televised games at the start of the season but has he carried that through? If so I could easily see him making the Saxons squad in January.

Hartley's return to form has been a joy to watch, I wonder if missing out on the lions has done him good. He is back to being Capt material imo.

Probably a few things Scratch...just been told in general to up his game. Credit to him he's doing it.

CHj
Yeah Barrow has been outstanding especially when you consider hes 20 years old. Big unit aswell.
The others, well Deano is confusing lots of people. Scott Wilson is progressing nicely at TH. Keiron Brookes has been brilliant when hes played both in the tight and the loose but has rarely played. Deano is very tight lipped on injuries etc so us fans are just assuming he's injured as if he was fit theres no way he wouldnt be playing.

We've got a load of young backs coming through of real quality who are getting the odd game. But the style we're playing at the moment simply mirrors the national team. Decent pack no use of the backs at all and no plan b when the big pack doesnt work.

The overall thing i am most encouraged by is our real strength in depth at pretty much every position 1-8. SL needs to keep doing what he is doing in making people really compete for places, this is a young side and the competition for spots will do them all good, and raise everyone's games. By the time of rwc2015 we really could have an awesome 1-8. Look what it has done for hartley already, and others. Those who flourish in this fierce competition within a really talented squad will be more than ready to mix it with the SA and NZ pack in my opinion.

then we just need the same pressure for places to start producing similar standout performances in the backline. i think dickson has really done well so far, has siezed the opportunity, and now its up to youngs to show why he deserves the jersey back. hopefully manu, barritt, yarde and wade will turn the heat up on everyone else.

i'm really optimistic.  

you have every right to be quoins but as we 'discussed' yesterday the obvious strength of the pack is masking the problems form 10-14…..i agree that if you get Manu and Barrit back, and they have a run in the 6 Nations - assuming both will be fit? That should sort the issues out. But England must be more dynamic and less conservative about sorting the back line asap, no doubt i will get a letter from Cockerill for saying this but for me Flood is a waste and Ashton continually proves he is not up to the job. It has to be Yarde and Wade and the sooner the better. I would also like to see Foden back pushing at 15 becuas e on form i think he is one of the best counter attacking 15s England or the home nations have ever had.

The depth developing at hooker is great. Hartley has looked a different player in an England shirt this series and Youngs whilst he'll have been disappointed with the NZ game is still a top hooker (merely remember the Lions tour). On top of that Webber is looking very strong for Bath.

One real strength to Webber's game is his defence. He is a big unit and technically very good in the tackle and over the ball. He offers a brick wall to big carriers in the opposition which against certain sides such as SA with BDP, Etzebeth, Alberts, Vermuelen, etc could be extremely useful.

Think I've posted this comment a few times before but I remember watching an interview with Shaun Edwards when he was with Wasps back around 06' when Webber was just starting out in the side. Edwards was asked who the biggest tackler in the Wasps squad was and without hesitation he said Webber.

May seem arbitrary but given that was a Wasps squad containing the likes of Ilbanez, Vickery, Shaw, Worlsey, Dallagio, Rees, Lewsey and Fraser Waters that is no small accolade for his tackling ability!

I see Geoff Parling is likely to be out of the start of the 6N if not the whole tournament.

Obviously no one wants to pick up injuries but this could be bad news overall for Parling considering Lawes is likely to carry on with the line-out and the options which might be brought on to the bench have all been pressing for a while.

It's an opportunity for us to really add to the pack I feel. The candidates to my mind are:

Dave Attwood - In the EPS and if fit will certainly make the bench. I believe he ran the line-out in Argentina and is doing so part-time for Bath. He'd be a great addition to the pack in terms of power. SL might opt to call up a bit more of a line-out leader however.

Ed Slater - Been playing superbly for Tigers both last season and this. A Saxons member and seeing a combination of Slater/Lawes would be a lovely addition to the pack overall. He isn't a line-out leader though and that may count against him.

Graham Kitchener - A great all-round lock who I assume will run the line at Tigers with Parling out. Has come on really well since leaving Worcester and is dynamic in the loose. Would be another who's pushing hard.

George Kruis - Like the other two also a Saxons member. There was talk of him learning from Borthwick on the line-out front but I don't know if he does actually run it for Sarries? Again like Kitchener great all-round contributor. Not selected that often this season behind Hargreaves though.

My choice would be Attwood on the bench with Graham Kitchener called into the squad. I like Slater a lot but he doesn't fit the bill from a line-out perspective unless that's handed to Tom Wood? Kruis needs to be alternating properly with Borthwick at Sarries I feel before he gets the call. Robson I have never rated hugely. Good line-out but not enough impact around the park.

If Attwood and Lawes can call the lineout then you have Slater and Launchbury adding grunt, Slater is a damn good lineout jumper. Given the similarities in how Slater and Launchbury operate that would give us some handy backup. Be interesting to see who gets the nod at Tigers as Deacon and Slater normally get a few games together when the weather is at It's worst.

formerly known as Sam wrote:If Attwood and Lawes can call the lineout then you have Slater and Launchbury adding grunt, Slater is a damn good lineout jumper. Given the similarities in how Slater and Launchbury operate that would give us some handy backup. Be interesting to see who gets the nod at Tigers as Deacon and Slater normally get a few games together when the weather is at It's worst.

Indeed, didn't Deacon call the line for England in the 2011 RWC? That would put a bit of a dampner on Kitchener's chances of serious game time. Would be very happy to see Slater called up if Attwood can run a good enough line-out.

I think we're ok in the seconds.

Rightly or wrongly i am ok with our wings too because we have Wade and Yarde to come in. I would like to see some other competition there though.

I and i think most others are more concerned about our centres. Can Luther Burrell play 13 ? If Lancaster asks Northampton to play him there would they do it? What is Luther's passing game like?

I want to see someone challenge Robshaw at 7. What has happened to the form of Fraser and Kvesic?

steffon armitage  

all we need to do is get lancaster to change his policy.

Fraser's been injured unfortunately, Kvesic has been poor (behind a struggling tight 5)

ChequeredJersey wrote:Fraser's been injured unfortunately, Kvesic has been poor (behind a struggling tight 5)

Kvesic hasn't had much of a chance in a poor overall pack. Take a look this week though in a much better balanced pack with Kvesic at 7 and Morgan at 8.

Incidentally one to watch out for is young Elliot Stooke at no.4. Only won the JWC this year but is looking to be doing a Launchbury this season as he did for Wasps and stand out in a pack on the back foot. Bit more of a physical presence than JL despite being only 20. Good to hear Dom Barrow seems to be doing the same!

Fraser is the one to watch out for I think, seems to have the attitude.

The BBC is reporting that Tomkins will be out for three months, if he's only getting match fit for the 2nd/ 3rd match of the 6N you could probably assume that he is out.  I know he's not everybody's favourite player,  but we've had some rubbish luck with our centres!  Barritt, Tuilagi and Tomkins are injured from the main squad and Allen and Lowe are injured out of the Saxons.  Throw in Joseph's lack of form and Kyle Eastmond throwing a wobbly, means resources are stretched. Just hope that 36 stays fit for the next 3-4 months...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25071807

Cumbrian wrote:...Kyle Eastmond throwing a wobbly...

I wonder whether Eastmond was feeling a bit left out of things. Not getting England game time at the same time as his old code was getting relatively heavy press coverage at the World Cup might have preyed on his mind. Now that England are out of the Cup, and centre spots are opening up for the Six Nations, he might knuckle down again.

If there is one player who screams international quality to me it's Elliot Daly. He's an intelligent footballer, good kicking game, monster boot from the tee, quick and with good acceleration and surprisingly strong and has a good pass. Defence is not 100% yet, and his running lines are hit and miss but has more natural talent than a lot of players currently in the squad.

I'd really like to see him introduced gradually into the squad environment. I just have a feeling he'd thrive as he seems to have a mental toughness about him as well.

king_carlos wrote:The depth developing at hooker is great. Hartley has looked a different player in an England shirt this series and Youngs whilst he'll have been disappointed with the NZ game is still a top hooker (merely remember the Lions tour). On top of that Webber is looking very strong for Bath.

One real strength to Webber's game is his defence. He is a big unit and technically very good in the tackle and over the ball. He offers a brick wall to big carriers in the opposition which against certain sides such as SA with BDP, Etzebeth, Alberts, Vermuelen, etc could be extremely useful.

Think I've posted this comment a few times before but I remember watching an interview with Shaun Edwards when he was with Wasps back around 06' when Webber was just starting out in the side. Edwards was asked who the biggest tackler in the Wasps squad was and without hesitation he said Webber.

May seem arbitrary but given that was a Wasps squad containing the likes of Ilbanez, Vickery, Shaw, Worlsey, Dallagio, Rees, Lewsey and Fraser Waters that is no small accolade for his tackling ability!

That's an interesting point, I hadn't considered Webber for having that quality. My feeling is still that our pack is now well drilled and aggressive enough to put other similar sized packs, and even some bigger ones, under a lot of pressure. BUT - our defence around ruck fringes is still not great, when it is attacked teams always make gains, and this will be amplified against teams like SA. A player like Attwood I'm not sure is a heavy duty carrier I'd still like us to have in the second row, but his defence in the tight looks excellent to me, interesting to hear Webber is similar. You don't want your team to be entirely dictated by the opposition but I still have nightmares about Alberts et al swatting our guys around the pitch!

Hood83 wrote:If there is one player who screams international quality to me it's Elliot Daly. He's an intelligent footballer, good kicking game, monster boot from the tee, quick and with good acceleration and surprisingly strong and has a good pass. Defence is not 100% yet, and his running lines are hit and miss but has more natural talent than a lot of players currently in the squad.

I'd really like to see him introduced gradually into the squad environment. I just have a feeling he'd thrive as he seems to have a mental toughness about him as well.

He is playing well in the match on the telly at the moment. The only problem is that they are trying to make him into a full back and we have plenty of those at the moment.

Agree why turn him to a FB....we desperately need quality skilled centres

GeordieFalcon wrote:Agree why turn him to a FB....we desperately need quality skilled centres

I know, agree entirely. Missed the game, so was he decent?

I'd like to see Daly get the 23 shirt regularly and come on at 13 or wing depending upon the circumstances. As mentioned there's just something about him that separates him from a lot of other potentials.

Wasps are without their other FB options Southwell and Masi at the moment. 13 of Daly's 18 starts were at centre for Wasps last season.

Daly would be a great option off the bench. Covers a good chunk of positions and has a great step and pace. I'd like to see him add a little bulk and play a bit at 12. Get him running the Fofana style lines and ghosting through gaps created by the presence of Manu at 13. We know Daly can play in the midfield and he's got the footballing skills.

That's a good idea Sam. Only problem is that Englands whole game plan calls for the 12 to be a ball carrier and gain line breaker more then a ghost. Also the 12 seems to lead the defensive effort as well which I just can't see Daily's body managing. If we tweaked the gameplan a fair bit and dropped in a couple of other players then it may work, but that's a big if.

The backs don't work, Daly can tackle and he'll be alongside Manu who will be doing the trucking up when required. Shove Yarde on the wing and Brown at fullback and there's three powerful running options to choose from. Add a 10 that doesn't stand 20 metres behind the gain line and suddenly you don't need two centres capable of crashing the ball.

Generally speaking the defence works about as well as it is ever likely too. Our backs are massively underwhelming though, we need to be able to score some tries. Worth a look on tour.

Couldn't manu play 12?

Could do. Restricts Manu a bit though. Daly as a second playmaker with the ability to use Manu on a dummy line outside of him and exploit the holes as the defence look to double tackle him. You can always use a traditional wedge to bring Manu back in on the crash line or release Daly in the wide channel. Daly at 12 gives a massive boot at 12 as well. Would make Daly and Twelvetrees similar options. Billy obviously adds more muscle whilst Daly is far more elusive.

Hood83 wrote:

king_carlos wrote:The depth developing at hooker is great. Hartley has looked a different player in an England shirt this series and Youngs whilst he'll have been disappointed with the NZ game is still a top hooker (merely remember the Lions tour). On top of that Webber is looking very strong for Bath.

One real strength to Webber's game is his defence. He is a big unit and technically very good in the tackle and over the ball. He offers a brick wall to big carriers in the opposition which against certain sides such as SA with BDP, Etzebeth, Alberts, Vermuelen, etc could be extremely useful.

Think I've posted this comment a few times before but I remember watching an interview with Shaun Edwards when he was with Wasps back around 06' when Webber was just starting out in the side. Edwards was asked who the biggest tackler in the Wasps squad was and without hesitation he said Webber.

May seem arbitrary but given that was a Wasps squad containing the likes of Ilbanez, Vickery, Shaw, Worlsey, Dallagio, Rees, Lewsey and Fraser Waters that is no small accolade for his tackling ability!

That's an interesting point, I hadn't considered Webber for having that quality. My feeling is still that our pack is now well drilled and aggressive enough to put other similar sized packs, and even some bigger ones, under a lot of pressure. BUT - our defence around ruck fringes is still not great, when it is attacked teams always make gains, and this will be amplified against teams like SA. A player like Attwood I'm not sure is a heavy duty carrier I'd still like us to have in the second row, but his defence in the tight looks excellent to me, interesting to hear Webber is similar. You don't want your team to be entirely dictated by the opposition but I still have nightmares about Alberts et al swatting our guys around the pitch!

Agree about our defence around the fringes not being good enough. It isn't terrible by any means but allows sides a way of controlling their attack and a route for turning slow ball into quick ball.

At full strength with Corbs and Cole we have two props who are very good in this area though. Add in Launchberry and Billy V who's game in the tight exchanges is developing very well with experience and we should have the players to correct this with some work. We also then have Wood and Robshaw on the flanks who whilst limited in attack are extremely good defensively.

I also agree wholeheartedly with the various comments about Daly needing to be in the squad. For me the 13 shirt should be between him and Trinder for the 6N as both have the pace and passing game to offer a threat themselves as well as let the wingers see the ball.

For the 1st match 6N - France in Paris..... we will be missing.....

Corbs
Tuilagi
Parling


Our best LH prop
Our best attacking back
Our best lineout general

oh and Tomkins.....

.........Ben Foden? ............

..............and counting........

Triangulation wrote:

For the 1st match 6N - France in Paris..... we will be missing.....

Corbs
Tuilagi
Parling


Our best LH prop
Our best attacking back
Our best lineout general

oh and Tomkins.....

.........Ben Foden? ............

..............and counting........

We're missing Tomkins?! What shall we do?!! Thank heavens that useless galump isn't available.

Corbs is broken, I'm gutted but trying to accept that one of Mako or Marler will simply have to step up in the next year. To be honest if Corbs can't get any game-time then he's not exactly going to improve anyway.

Manu's injury could be a blessing. We will always over rely on him when he's fit otherwise and the temptation will always be to just use him as a battering ram. I still think he should have been developed as a winger who can drift in, or if I was being very ambitious a Nonu-like 12. If Daly goes back to 13 I think he could be a far more rounded player.

Parling is a sub now. If Hartley is playing the link with him and T Youngs is less important anyway. I think we're better off without him.

quinsforever wrote:steffon armitage  

all we need to do is get lancaster to change his policy.

Whether we agree with the policy itself or not, Armitage has just signed a new contract in France knowing full well that it rules him out of England contention. Unless there are some personal circumstances around why he's decided to stay there that we don't know about, it indicates that he's really not all that fussed about international rugby.

i would say rather that he doesnt appear to be all that fussed about taking a 50% paycut just for the "chance" of international rugby.

i just dont understand why we have that policy though. no-one else does.

Talking about big tacklers the other player that might be worth an EPS place is Garvey. He had an outstanding game for Bath on the weekend and has been good all season.

At the risk of becoming Geordie Falcon, I really think he does need to come in to the Eng set up ASAP!

I wouldn't mind seeing Wood given the captaincy for a game or two either in the 6N's (in a real pressure environment) or on the summer tour (less pressure) and being moved to 7 to accomodate Garvey at 6.

Maybe Wood for the summer tour Yappy but I though Robshaw was very good in the AIs and would look to replace Wood before the 6N if It's decided we need some additional muscle. It's worth noting Garvey has been largely ignored since his Saxons debut where he was subbed at half time despite a stunning first half.

Triangulation wrote:

For the 1st match 6N - France in Paris..... we will be missing.....

Corbs
Tuilagi
Parling


Our best LH prop
Our best attacking back
Our best lineout general

oh and Tomkins.....

.........Ben Foden? ............

..............and counting........

Mako and Marler have shown themselves to be decent enough back up to Corbisiero - not too worried about that.

Tuilagi - as good as he is, can't rely on him.

Parling our best lineout general? Shame he couldn't show that vs NZ. 

Tomkins was unlikely to start vs France anyway.

Foden is 2nd behind Brown. England have plenty of decent FB options.

Parling has been great for England but if (and it is a big if) Lawes and Launchbury continue with their form they're nailed on starters surely. We must try an attacking OC, thinking Trinder is in 1st place at the mo. And surely we have to plan long term for no Corbs?

Yappy, Im saying nothing about Garvey  

Although a back row of below would be huge.
6 Garvey
7 Wood / Robshaw
8 Vunipola / Morgan

As for second rows i thought Lawes and Launchbury looked a very impressive combo.

But i think we're creating a position of strength there now...Slater, Kitchener, Attwood etc would fit in nicely.

I will also include Stooke (as mentioned above ) and Barrow...two young kids who are playing beyond their years. Certianly Barrow as i have mentioned in the past has been outstanding.

And whilst Corbs is a huge blow, im repeating myself again, we need Marler and Vunipola getting as much gametime as possible...so Corbs missing is not a problem. Indeed Marler suggested to me against the Ab's that he certainly can make the grade with a very impressive performance, and Mako is another work in progress.

The backs...well i think all our wingers and Fb's are very good and offer different options. But unless we address the 10-13 axis it doesnt matter who plays there.

I know I'm biased but I reckon Dom Barrow is the one to watch because he is learning the ropes as a lineout caller. Parling is into his 30s and there should be some plan to bring through another lineout lock after him. Even if Lawes is the long term answer, there is still a need for cover in this area. Plus Dom is the athletic, mobile player that Lancaster likes... With the added advantage of being pretty strong in the contact too! I don't like it but I suspect that players like Garvey and Stooke who are there to bring the biff will find it difficult to get a game under Bomber's tenure.

Edit: I reckon he could get a chance quicker than anybody expects if the management are looking in Falcon's direction, they've shown that they aren't afraid to a punt on a young player.

Ive been singing his praises for a while now. He's an intelligent player aswell...and is a born leader.

But it would appear in general the policy is a player must have at least one season of consistant top rugby performances under their belt (of course there has been the odd exception) so maybe a Saxons spot might be a possibility. And he's in great hands with Wells and Deano looking after him.

Garvey has long deserved a place in the Saxons at least and probably further at times. I'd be very interested to know just what happened in the Saxons match when he was pulled off at half time despite looking the best player on the pitch for the first 40mins!

Come the squad announcements for the 6N I'd look to bring Slater into the EPS for the injured Parling. Then bring Garvey and Barrow into the Saxons to replace Slater and Robson.

EPS Locks - Launchberry, Lawes, Attwood, Slater

Saxons Locks - Kitchener, Garvey, Kruis, Myall, Barrow

The above look some very handy resources to me with Kitchener and Garvey IMO ready to step into the EPS if injury strikes along with Kruis, Myall and Barrow who will benefit massively from time and experience in the set-up.

I could go along with those options Carlos. Covers all angles..

If there's ever an open Q&A with Lancaster or Rowntree we must ask what happened with Garvey!! Especially when you consider his position in the EPS is often wasted by Stu's love child.

That is the question isn't it Yappy.
Do you think he was subbed to trial other players and because he was having such a good game he spat his dummy out? Its possible. But why sub him when he was having such a good game?
Who knows...

It may be that he wouldn't be that good at the top level..but no one knows until he's tried. But if he does perform...its yet more options in a pack that appears to be moving forward nicely.

That looks a really good mix King Carlos.

The positive thing about bringing the likes of Garvey and Fearns through to the Saxons is it gives us increased options in the pack. Namely a more physical 6/8 combination.

If we're going to persist with Farrell at 10 and a quasi-flanker at 12 in Barritt, then a heavy-duty pack is a pre-requisite to play that total forward domination game.

I know we've seen some very positive reviews of the pack and deservedly so on the showing in the autumn. They have not yet faced the true litmus test of a physical pack yet. Until they do face SA we don't know how good this pack really is.

Personally I feel the likes of Attwood (as a sub) and a physical 6 is going to be required in that scenario.

Backs? Backs? We don't need no stinkin' Backs.

Garvey has looked impressive so far. For me Burns has to play quite a big part in the 6Ns purely for the fact that he needs game time with England. For me he should be the 2nd choice at fly half but seriously pressing Farrell. If it's Farrell with Flood as the bench option I wouldn't be looking forward to the 1st test in NZ if it's a Leicester Saracens final.

I know we've seen some very positive reviews of the pack and deservedly so on the showing in the autumn. They have not yet faced the true litmus test of a physical pack yet. Until they do face SA we don't know how good this pack really is.

Chjw,

Ive praised the pack, but your totally right...and don't forget Wales blew us off the park as well. Its certainly looking promising and more options coming through almost by the game..but lets see if we can continue this pack performance in the 6n.

I desperately want to see some cutting edge in attach from the team as a whole as well.

yappysnap wrote:If there's ever an open Q&A with Lancaster or Rowntree we must ask what happened with Garvey!! Especially when you consider his position in the EPS is often wasted by Stu's love child.

If dearest Calum is called into the EPS as a replacement lock again I may have a breakdown! As a Tigers fan people can call bias due to the Hawkins business, but even as a flanker I honestly feel that if it weren't for Crofts injury he wouldn't merit a Saxons place as a blindside at current.

Blindsides - Wood, Haskell, Johnson, Fearns, Garvey

Even with Croft out I'd take all of the above ahead of Clark at current and even with 5 injuries to the above I would probably be more drawn to trying 6.Robshaw 7.Kvesic/Fraser than Clark at blindside. Simply don't feel he's knocking the door down like Saxons players should need to given our resources.

Looking at the pack as a whole I agree the depth is building well but would also argue key changes (other than injury replacements) need to be made to allow players and the squads to keep progressing.

Hookers - Firstly with the EPS I think it's time to get Webber in as a 3rd options to offer real competition to Hartley and Youngs. He's playing very well at Bath and offers a different skill set with his physical defence which could be very useful vs a pack such as SA. Then in the Saxons it's time to cut Paice loose and bring in two of Buchanan, Gray or Lindsay to get a better look at them.

Tighthead - We really need to develop some depth behind Cole/Wilson and IMO Brookes deserves a chance in the Saxons to prove himself. Thomas is a big talent but hasn't looked as strong as I'd hoped he would this season and PDJ I've just never bee very convinced by. Brookes on the other hand has looked very good in the tight and loose this season - out of interest why hasn't he played more if anyone knows?

Flanker - I'd promote Haskell to the EPS in place of Croft and I'd give Fearns a much deserved place in the Saxons.

Number 8 - Crane I'd keep in the Saxons as a leader and experienced player who offers a huge work rate. Alongside him it's time for someone like Ewers to be given a shot ahead of Waldrom though.

1.Wood
2.Buchanan
3.Brookes
4.Garvey
5.Kitchener
6.Johnson
7.Fraser
8.Crane or Ewers

16.Lindsay 17.Mullan 18.PDJ 19.Kruis/Barrow 20.Fearns

The above is the sort of pack I'd very much like to see the Saxons fielding to get a proper look at new players. Also the above offers the opportunity to mix things up from game to game - particularly in the back row with Ewers/Fearns capable at 6 or 8 and Fraser/Wallace fighting it out at 7.