England Squad for NZ Tour and 6N

First topic message reminder :

And I've posed it in that order for a reason. England have already said that their objective is to win the 6N (with France away first up, that's a pretty big ask...) but thy also have a 3 game tour to NZ coming up in which the first game will be played without the AP finalists.

So the challenge is - how do you put together the 6N squad so that whoever makes the final, you have enough players who've played together by the end of the 6N that England can field a half-decent side with players from the top two sides missing? I suppose the good news is that for once the EPS is a nice mix of players from various teams, but a Saints-Sarries final would be a serious hindrance.

The EPS on 1 Aug looked like this. Who would be your squad? And how would you prepare them?

England senior EPS:

Forwards: David Attwood (Bath Rugby), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints), Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), David Wilson (Bath Rugby), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints), Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Backs: Chris Ashton (Saracens), Brad Barritt (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Danny Care (Harlequins), Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers), Ben Foden (Northampton Saints), Alex Goode (Saracens), Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby), Christian Wade (London Wasps), Marland Yarde (London Irish), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

England Saxons:

Forwards: Calum Clark (Northampton Saints), Jordan Crane (Leicester Tigers), Paul Doran Jones (Harlequins), Will Fraser (Saracens), James Haskell (London Wasps), Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers), George Kruis (Saracens), Kearnan Myall (London Wasps), David Paice (London Irish), George Robson (Harlequins), Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers), Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks), Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers), Luke Wallace (Harlequins), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby), Nick Wood (Gloucester Rugby)

Backs: Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers), Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Elliot Daly (London Wasps), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Ugo Monye (Harlequins), Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby), Joe Simpson (London Wasps), David Strettle (Saracens), Mathew Tait (Leicester Tigers), Joel Tomkins (Saracens), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)

I'd say finding a realistic alternative to Cole is a must. We know he is quality but Wilson was only average vs Argentina and got given a bit of a lesson by Ayerza. Send him Thomas and a n other down to NZ and see which emerges with the best performance.

Sending a first team down to NZ could be a major error. If they take a three test kicking all confidence will be gone. Send an experimental squad and we might well find out more about the options we have and if we lose (not many win in NZ) it's unlikely to have the same effect on morale.

We desperately need an attacking 10 so put Burns and Ford into the bear pit and see how they handle the pressure. Ditto the front row options like Webber, Lindsay, Thomas and Wilson. Attwood and Slater simply have to be given a go as we need more physicality in the second row and more attack in the tight.

nganboy wrote:A few people have put the blame at the feet of the NZRFU but surely it doesn't decide the schedule by itself. Surely the English union and the IRB have to sign off on it.

good mark souster Times article. irrespective of who moved the dates (he's pretty clear who he thinks was responsible for that), NZRFU refused to discuss moving them back even when the RFU asked the IRB to intervene.

formerly known as Sam wrote:I'd say finding a realistic alternative to Cole is a must. We know he is quality but Wilson was only average vs Argentina and got given a bit of a lesson by Ayerza. Send him Thomas and a n other down to NZ and see which emerges with the best performance.

Sending a first team down to NZ could be a major error. If they take a three test kicking all confidence will be gone. Send an experimental squad and we might well find out more about the options we have and if we lose (not many win in NZ) it's unlikely to have the same effect on morale.

We desperately need an attacking 10 so put Burns and Ford into the bear pit and see how they handle the pressure. Ditto the front row options like Webber, Lindsay, Thomas and Wilson. Attwood and Slater simply have to be given a go as we need more physicality in the second row and more attack in the tight.

100% agree, especially as we will be without 10-15 of the squad for the first match.

I agree, send the possibles and maybe's with a few old heads and see what they are made of.

We won't win a series in NZ at the end of the season anyway.

formerly known as Sam wrote:I'd say finding a realistic alternative to Cole is a must. We know he is quality but Wilson was only average vs Argentina and got given a bit of a lesson by Ayerza. Send him Thomas and a n other down to NZ and see which emerges with the best performance.

Sending a first team down to NZ could be a major error. If they take a three test kicking all confidence will be gone. Send an experimental squad and we might well find out more about the options we have and if we lose (not many win in NZ) it's unlikely to have the same effect on morale.

We desperately need an attacking 10 so put Burns and Ford into the bear pit and see how they handle the pressure. Ditto the front row options like Webber, Lindsay, Thomas and Wilson. Attwood and Slater simply have to be given a go as we need more physicality in the second row and more attack in the tight.

Not against giving Attwood a go because we need options but Lawes and Launchbury look pretty good to me. Stephen Myler looks the best fly half at the moment and would probably better suit England than Burns or Ford. For one thing he can tackle. Definitely need to look at Webber as Youngs cannot throw at line-outs.

Thomas is very raw and often gets beaten up in the scrum at Premiership level, I'd also take him to NZ but I'd be sparing with him. He is the same age as Mako, but some how seems more vulnerable at the moment. It may be my bias, but maybe Kieran Brookes could force his way in if he stays fit for the rest of the season (he's looked good at times this season).

Scrumpy wrote:I agree, send the possibles and maybe's with a few old heads and see what they are made of.

We won't win a series in NZ at the end of the season anyway.

Due to the incompetence of the RFU who arranged the fixture a second team will play in the first test anyway.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/10445978/England-may-have-to-field-second-string-against-New-Zealand-in-June-due-to-clash-with-Aviva-Premiership-final.html

formerly known as Sam wrote:I'd say finding a realistic alternative to Cole is a must. We know he is quality but Wilson was only average vs Argentina and got given a bit of a lesson by Ayerza. Send him Thomas and a n other down to NZ and see which emerges with the best performance.

Sending a first team down to NZ could be a major error. If they take a three test kicking all confidence will be gone. Send an experimental squad and we might well find out more about the options we have and if we lose (not many win in NZ) it's unlikely to have the same effect on morale.

We desperately need an attacking 10 so put Burns and Ford into the bear pit and see how they handle the pressure. Ditto the front row options like Webber, Lindsay, Thomas and Wilson. Attwood and Slater simply have to be given a go as we need more physicality in the second row and more attack in the tight.

Whilst I'd agree Wilson is weaker than Cole being second best to Ayerza in the scrum is no embarrassment and he's certainly a stronger second choice TH than most other nations have.

Cumbrian - I'd agree Brookes is worth a look if his form continues. His fitness has improved drastically and he's showing up very well in tight and loose this season.

On the second rows I feel Parling will need a rest come the end of the season (especially if he is involved in the final). Problem is that all of Parling, Slater and Kitchener have a look in for the squad so if the Tigers are involved in the final the lock resources suddenly look thinner. In fact most of the second rows I'd consider to travel are in with a shout of missing that first test!

Carlos it was more that I think Wilson needs another game or two against high class opposition in order to seriously stake a claim. Thomas needs some game time to develop as will whichever other tighthead we send. Young tightheads whether it be Brookes, Balmain, Thomas or Sinckler will all have days where they take a kicking, even Cole looked a dodgey scrummager when he first hit the Tigers first team but developed at a phenomenal rate even more so once he played some international games.

Re Tom Youngs throwing. The guy threw perfectly on the Lions tour, has thrown very well this season for the Tigers and has only had a wobble once he joined the England squad. Don't know the reason, whether the new options on the back and Youngs just can't find a rhythm whilst Hartley who is playing with his club colleagues can manage it better could be a reason but I don't know. Could be sleepless nights with a heavily pregnant wife at home, whatever the reason he'll have a point to prove. Webber definitely deserves a go with his form this season.

I'd be inclined to take Slater even if he misses the first test. He's been in incredible form this season and really ticks all the boxes for an old school lock but is athletic enough to play on the backrow and weighing in at over 18 stone he's not going to be outmuscled easily. Still not a fan of Lawes, the lineout calling has made him a viable option but just not sure he's as far ahead of the other options as Stuart Barnes would make out. I'd like to see Atwood/Slater in at least one test.

Sam - Agree with all that. Especially the stuff on THs always having to take some hidings to improve and Youngs throwing.

I wont deny for a second the line-out capitulation cost us dear against the ABs but at the same time he's got an 89% completion rate for the Tigers this season (Hartley's is 92%) and was the best line-out operator on the Lions tour in the summer. He can throw but still has off days which need to be sorted.

With the second rows I'd agree Slater or Attwood need gametime in the summer but at the same time must admit Lawes has impressed me. In the past I've viewed him as a bit of a gimmick. Yes he made big hits but I rarely saw them to be made at key times or end in turnovers. This season however he has shown an added maturity to most aspects of his game plus he's developed his carrying and line-out work dramatically. His breakdown work is also far more effective now than in the past.

Is he as good as many have made out? Probably not, but not many England players are when the media hype starts!
Does he deserve to keep the shirt for the 6N? Definitely deserves this alongside Launchberry in my eyes.

The second row is looking a real strong suit for us at the moment though with Launchberry, Lawes and Parling in the forefront. Followed by Attwood/Slater who can offer some bulk and then the likes of Kitchener/Kruis with all the talent to challenge the aforementioned.

I think conceding four tries through poor defensive communication and an inability to score tries whilst in the second half ascendancy cost us dearly against the ABs. You can't win a world cup without scoring tries.

Certainly agree on the media hype thing. Not sure Lawes really fills me with confidence though, his big tackles and strong lineout work are pluses but he doesn't really impose himself on his opposite number. I think he has benefited from us not playing SA or a cohesive Puma team where his tight work would have been placed under the microscope.

I'm not sure Tom Youngs was having three off days. His throws generally started inaccurate then dramatically improved. Probably the best lineout of the series was Youngs to Parling at the tail with Tomkins crashing up nice and flat. Morgan wraps round on a nice J line and try time. His missed throws were (bar one not straight) where the man was supposed to be a split second before he got there or where the jumper would have been had he not been interfered with by the opposition. That would seem to indicate a communication problem.

If your looking for a Second row of the future...and NOW, a world cup winner, currently playing tremendous stuff and at 20 year old is a future potential England captain...step forward Dom Barrow. Id take him to NZ.

Brookes is another who could be an option...though he seems to be either injured or being managed very closely by Deano. Every game he seems to be on fire...but not playing loads of games.

formerly known as Sam wrote:I think conceding four tries through poor defensive communication and an inability to score tries whilst in the second half ascendancy cost us dearly against the ABs. You can't win a world cup without scoring tries.

Certainly agree on the media hype thing. Not sure Lawes really fills me with confidence though, his big tackles and strong lineout work are pluses but he doesn't really impose himself on his opposite number. I think he has benefited from us not playing SA or a cohesive Puma team where his tight work would have been placed under the microscope.

I'm not sure Tom Youngs was having three off days. His throws generally started inaccurate then dramatically improved. Probably the best lineout of the series was Youngs to Parling at the tail with Tomkins crashing up nice and flat. Morgan wraps round on a nice J line and try time. His missed throws were (bar one not straight) where the man was supposed to be a split second before he got there or where the jumper would have been had he not been interfered with by the opposition. That would seem to indicate a communication problem.

I disagree. Actually England conceded 3 tries. Actually you can win a world cup without scoring tries - SA have done it twice. There are normally very few tries in a rugby world cup final if any.

England lost because they did not maintain their momentum when they went 22-20 up. The bench let England down badly. As players like Hartley,Farrell and Dickson went off hopes of an England victory went up in smoke.

I'd agree we need to look at some other options at lock. I thought Lawes and Launchbury worked very well but the ABs do not have a huge pack. Against SA we need players who can stop their big carriers on the gainline, we also need players who can tighten up our fringe defence. Attwood should be looked at, possibly Slater as well.

The flip-side is that the ABs showed you can beat the Boks with a smaller but very well drilled, aggressive pack. I'm just not convinced we can replicate this with players as young and inexperienced as ours.

Hood, i think a lot has to do with the AB's backs aswell.

Thats the critical area for me...even just a lttle bit of quality there (with a bit of experience) and we'd have probably beaten the AB's.

But going back to the pack...Parling is not the type of guy to bring off the bench. Ive never been a massive fan of him in the England set up. Id prefer to have Kitchener in the England set up over Parling.

Kitchener, Slater, Attwood.

After that we're getting in to young territory...Barrow as i mentioned would be well worth a look. Has Matthews been back playing for Quins? That big fella for Exter 6'11 or whatever he is...but do we take them to a NZ series on potential with barely any Prem experience.

What about Evers and the other No.8 at saints that have been playing well.

Hood83 of course you want to always look at other players but if Lawes and Launchbury are playing well they should be retained.

Lawes and Launchbury are not that experienced players. If others want their jerseys they need to show the form to back it up.

SA aren't just bruisers. They are intelligent and can score tries too.

Borrowed from the Tigers offy:

" And when you take a look at the broader picture across the last three world cups, from 2003-11, the big games are won by the teams who score the most tries. Including just games between the 3N/6N/Arg and knock-out matches:

2003: 16 matches 4 the try-scount was level. Of the remaining 12, 10 were won by the team scoring more tries (83%)

2007: 16 matches Again, in 4 the try-count was level. Of the remaining 12, 10 were won by the team scoring more tries (83%)

2011: 16 matches Again, in 4 the try-count was level. Of the remaining 12, 11 were won by the team scoring more tries (92%)

In total, the team that scores the most tries will win. It's happened in 31 of the 36 'big' matches in the last three world cups. It just so happens that 3 of the 5 exceptions featured England, but that doesn't mean that it's a good idea to ignore the vast majority of the games in which try-scoring clearly mattered."

The sub bench didn't bring the impact we hoped but by the time they took the field we had already blown 20 mins of domination and the game had turned notably in the ABs favour. Flood entered the fray on 68 mins far too late given that England had notched only 6 points in the second half.

We look unfit in comparison to the SH teams and has Beshocked correctly points out even the big forward based teams like Argentina and SA look to score tries through backs and forwards. 10 man rugby just isn't a viable concept. Even when England were given that tag we were more than capable of moving the ball and attacking with flowing rugby. The fact we didn't have too was merely a reflection of the dominance we tended to enjoy up front.

beshocked wrote:Hood83 of course you want to always look at other players but if Lawes and Launchbury are playing well they should be retained.

Lawes and Launchbury are not that experienced players. If others want their jerseys they need to show the form to back it up.

SA aren't just bruisers. They are intelligent and can score tries too.

This is true, Id argue that Attwood and Slater's club form this year has been as good as Launchbury's, so I think it's reasonable for them to get time. We also need to develop some depth here at some point soon. Parling is fine but after that we have few with experience. They have to get it at some point or we're very thin on the ground.

SA aren't bruisers, but that is the area where they strangle teams. If our coaches can develop a game that counters this with pace and precision, great, but I doubt it from what I've seen. So the next best option is to make sure we're not hammered in the pack.

Would agree with Geordie that our backs are the major problem though.

Blown 20 minutes of domination? I wouldn't say England going from 17-3 down to 22-20 is blowing domination but that's just me!

England were leading 22-20 then Hartley went off. They had scored 6 points in the first 10 minutes of the 2nd half.

England's momentum was lost by losing their 100% lineout in spectacular fashion and you could say led to New Zealand's 10 points.

E.g. an attacking lineout in New Zealand's 22 turned into a kickable penalty for NZ.

We needed guys from the bench to maintain the momentum or up the tempo. They did not do that.

This game was lost because we couldn't maintain momentum for the full 80. Losing lineouts gives vital possession and field position to the opposition obviously and a side like NZ is ruthless. The bench must take responsibility for this. Lineouts are so important for a good platform.

Will there be space for any of Exe's youngsters on the summer tour, or is the general view that RWC 2015 will come too soon for them? I notice that not a single Exe player gets a mention in the vast majority of touring parties

Exeter are the most fairytale side in England. I suspect that all supporters of other AP teams have a soft spot for them. But they've not been in the top flight for long (3 years???) and only really at the top of it this season (which imo is one heck of an achievement). I suspect we might see some Exeter names starting to appear in the next season or so.

Good point ASBO...

I often think Exeter go under the radar in these discussions. They've got some very good young players coming through..

Who would you suggest might be worth a look?

Cowshot, i dont think it matters how long they have been in the top flight.

I dont care if they play for Leicester, Sarries or Worcester. For me IF they are pulling up trees they should be considered. To be honest if someone is standing out in a poor side that to me makes them even more worth a look.

For example Ive suggested Dom Barrow from us is worth a look as he has been quite fantastic in a stuttering side.

To be honest we only want a few changes to the pack at a time or else it'll be a mess.

Assuming it's Tigers v Sarries in the final i'd start the following against NZ.

Marler (rest Corbs)
Hartley (captain)
Wilson
Lawes
Attwood
Wood
Robshaw
Morgan

Bench: Mullan, Webber, Brookes, Launchberry, Ewers

That gives us a few new players to test out while still retaining the core of the pack. Hartley gets a stint as captain to help spread the leadership around.

In the backs assuming it's the same teams in the final:

Care
Burns
Yarde
Twelvetrees
Trinder
Wade
Brown

Bench: Dickson, Myler, Burrell

Lots of pace and threat in the backs, power from Yards, 36 and Brown while Trinder and Wade add the stardust.

Oh, agree, GF. It's just that it takes a while to be noticed, then the next year you might be in the Elite squad. They haven't been up long so they've only recently started to get noticed. That's all.

Im with ya Cowshot...but dont forget Tom Johnson was in pretty quick so they're definately on the radar. But they have some crackers coming through.

Helps if sky get behind you as well...

Oh yes! I'd forgotten him.

There is always a bit of an issue with great players in less successful teams not getting noticed. I think it partly down to human nature (one tends to look at successful teams for players...) but also that those players tend not to get eg European exposure which means they get fewer chances to impress at high level.

We've been good with the Saxons for a while. I think there is a case for expanding what we do at that level. Perhaps a new Churchill Cup would do the job? I really enjoyed that competition.

Actually ive been quite disapointed with the performances of the Saxons...i think they should be doing / playing better with what we have available.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Good point ASBO...

I often think Exeter go under the radar in these discussions. They've got some very good young players coming through..

Who would you suggest might be worth a look?

GF, I'd imagine that LC-D would be worth a look when he comes back from injury, plus Jack Nowell; Sam Hill has also been going well in the centre

Ewers too, possibly.

ASBO, has Ewers played much on the blindside?

Dont forget this is for the tour to New Zealand! Its not a trip to Canada for the Churchill cup.

BamBam wrote:Ewers too, possibly.

ASBO, has Ewers played much on the blindside?

Yes, BamBam - before this season's inheritance of Richie Baxter's boots, he was mostly being used at 6

Lol. One of the problems is that we simply don't play enough Internationals, either 1st team or Saxon, to look at all the players we might want to and integrate them!

beshocked wrote:Blown 20 minutes of domination? I wouldn't say England going from 17-3 down to 22-20 is blowing domination but that's just me!

England were leading 22-20 then Hartley went off. They had scored 6 points in the first 10 minutes of the 2nd half.

England's momentum was lost by losing their 100% lineout in spectacular fashion and you could say led to New Zealand's 10 points.

E.g. an attacking lineout in New Zealand's 22 turned into a kickable penalty for NZ.

We needed guys from the bench to maintain the momentum or up the tempo. They did not do that.

This game was lost because we couldn't maintain momentum for the full 80. Losing lineouts gives vital possession and field position to the opposition obviously and a side like NZ is ruthless. The bench must take responsibility for this. Lineouts are so important for a good platform.

By blowing domination I think Sam means that we once again failed to convert a period of forward momentum into tries. There's no point denying Youngs had a bad day at the office but at the same time there's little point claiming it is solely his fault that the line-out malfunctioned, or that this was the only deficiency that led too a loss on the day. Ultimately a poor performance from the bench against a top side doesn't make him a bad player.

It's also frustrating that the line-out struggles are being used by many to cover up the fact that if we want to beat the top sides consistently we need to turn pressure into points. This means scoring tries which we have had an inability to do for far too long.

On a different note I'd encourage people not too forget about Haskell as quickly as he seems to have been. His all round skill set, experience and versatility could be huge in a touring or world cup squad. Plus he offers a different option to Wood or Croft which against packs such as SA's could prove to be very useful.

ASBO - Is LC-D still at prop or has he moved to hooker full time now?

On the others Ewers and Nowell could be part of a large pack of very talented players I could see pushing for a few spots on the summer tour.

Back row - Morgan, Vunipola, Robshaw, Wood nailed on other than injuries/resting. That leaves two spots which in my eyes will be fought out between Kvesic, Fraser, Haskell, Ewers and Johnson.

Wing - Wade and Yarde nailed on other than injuries/resting. Again leaves two spots which I'd have contended between May, Sharples and Nowell though I expect Ashton and Strettle will be in Lancaster's mind.

From the actual OP changes to the squads i wouldnt make a huge number of changes from the Senior squad.

Id be focusing on changing the highlighted for one reason or another.

England senior EPS:

Forwards: David Attwood (Bath Rugby), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints), Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers) ,Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), David Wilson (Bath Rugby), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints), Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Backs: Chris Ashton (Saracens), Brad Barritt (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Danny Care (Harlequins), Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers), Ben Foden (Northampton Saints), Alex Goode (Saracens), Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby), Christian Wade (London Wasps), Marland Yarde (London Irish), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

England Saxons:

Forwards: Calum Clark (Northampton Saints), Jordan Crane (Leicester Tigers), Paul Doran Jones (Harlequins), Will Fraser (Saracens), James Haskell (London Wasps), Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers), George Kruis (Saracens), Kearnan Myall (London Wasps), David Paice (London Irish), George Robson (Harlequins), Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers), Henry Thomas (Sale),Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers), Luke Wallace (Harlequins), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby), Nick Wood (Gloucester Rugby)

Backs: Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers), Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Elliot Daly (London Wasps), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Ugo Monye (Harlequins), Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby), Joe Simpson (London Wasps), David Strettle (Saracens), Mathew Tait (Leicester Tigers), Joel Tomkins (Saracens), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens).

Croft is out for the season so i would take him out and promote Haskell, Fraser or Ewers possibly dependig on form.

The main problem for me is the Saxons squad. It should be predominantly great youngsters coming through with a few older guys of top quality for experience on the pitch. However i think theres too monay older guys that offer absolutely nothing. I think guys like Paice's position in the saxons is an utter waste. Get rid and put Buchanan, Lindsay or someone in there. Likewise George Robson at lock. No point being there. Bring in Barrow or someone young who'll benefit.
Waldrom is a complete waste of a spot aswell...if Ewers wants to play for England then bring him in.
Is Henry Thomas fulfilling anything? Are other young props worth a look?

I think theres lot to look at. Certainly the Saxons performances over the last few games have not impressed me at all...

king_carlos wrote:

beshocked wrote:Blown 20 minutes of domination? I wouldn't say England going from 17-3 down to 22-20 is blowing domination but that's just me!

England were leading 22-20 then Hartley went off. They had scored 6 points in the first 10 minutes of the 2nd half.

England's momentum was lost by losing their 100% lineout in spectacular fashion and you could say led to New Zealand's 10 points.

E.g. an attacking lineout in New Zealand's 22 turned into a kickable penalty for NZ.

We needed guys from the bench to maintain the momentum or up the tempo. They did not do that.

This game was lost because we couldn't maintain momentum for the full 80. Losing lineouts gives vital possession and field position to the opposition obviously and a side like NZ is ruthless. The bench must take responsibility for this. Lineouts are so important for a good platform.

By blowing domination I think Sam means that we once again failed to convert a period of forward momentum into tries. There's no point denying Youngs had a bad day at the office but at the same time there's little point claiming it is solely his fault that the line-out malfunctioned, or that this was the only deficiency that led too a loss on the day. Ultimately a poor performance from the bench against a top side doesn't make him a bad player.

It's also frustrating that the line-out struggles are being used by many to cover up the fact that if we want to beat the top sides consistently we need to turn pressure into points. This means scoring tries which we have had an inability to do for far too long.

On a different note I'd encourage people not too forget about Haskell as quickly as he seems to have been. His all round skill set, experience and versatility could be huge in a touring or world cup squad. Plus he offers a different option to Wood or Croft which against packs such as SA's could prove to be very useful.

ASBO - Is LC-D still at prop or has he moved to hooker full time now?

On the others Ewers and Nowell could be part of a large pack of very talented players I could see pushing for a few spots on the summer tour.

Back row - Morgan, Vunipola, Robshaw, Wood nailed on other than injuries/resting. That leaves two spots which in my eyes will be fought out between Kvesic, Fraser, Haskell, Ewers and Johnson.

Wing - Wade and Yarde nailed on other than injuries/resting. Again leaves two spots which I'd have contended between May, Sharples and Nowell though I expect Ashton and Strettle will be in Lancaster's mind.

He's 100% hooker these days, king

GeordieFalcon wrote:Actually ive been quite disapointed with the performances of the Saxons...i think they should be doing / playing better with what we have available.

I was thinking more of making use of the Saxons as a development squad than actual results. It's where we can take a first look at the younger players with potential at the top level though I think they HAVE lost something since the end of the Churchill Cup. Then if good enough they get introduced to the 1st team in the AIs or friendlies. Give some structure to career progression...

It's no use having a massive player base if we can't identify the talent...

....up and down from keyboard..hadn't noticed the last two posts when I hit send...

I'd agree with most those changes Geordie. Especially agree with the comments on the Saxons underachieving given their resources.

In the second row especially Garvey or Barrow would better serve the Saxons than Robson IMO.

1.Wood
2.Lindsay or Bunchanan - I'd have Webber in the EPS
3.PDJ or Brookes
4.Slater
5.Kitchener
6.Johnson
7.Fraser
8.Crane or Ewers

9.Robson
10.Ford

11.Nowell or Ashton - I'd have May in the EPS.
12.Allen or Burrell
13.Joseph - I'd have Daly in the EPS
14.Sharples
15.Tait

The Saxons in my eyes should be used to find out more about new players and help develop their all round game. A side such as the one above would do both of those things much better than the current sides tend to do.

king_carlos wrote:

beshocked wrote:Blown 20 minutes of domination? I wouldn't say England going from 17-3 down to 22-20 is blowing domination but that's just me!

England were leading 22-20 then Hartley went off. They had scored 6 points in the first 10 minutes of the 2nd half.

England's momentum was lost by losing their 100% lineout in spectacular fashion and you could say led to New Zealand's 10 points.

E.g. an attacking lineout in New Zealand's 22 turned into a kickable penalty for NZ.

We needed guys from the bench to maintain the momentum or up the tempo. They did not do that.

This game was lost because we couldn't maintain momentum for the full 80. Losing lineouts gives vital possession and field position to the opposition obviously and a side like NZ is ruthless. The bench must take responsibility for this. Lineouts are so important for a good platform.

By blowing domination I think Sam means that we once again failed to convert a period of forward momentum into tries. There's no point denying Youngs had a bad day at the office but at the same time there's little point claiming it is solely his fault that the line-out malfunctioned, or that this was the only deficiency that led too a loss on the day. Ultimately a poor performance from the bench against a top side doesn't make him a bad player.

It's also frustrating that the line-out struggles are being used by many to cover up the fact that if we want to beat the top sides consistently we need to turn pressure into points. This means scoring tries which we have had an inability to do for far too long.

On a different note I'd encourage people not too forget about Haskell as quickly as he seems to have been. His all round skill set, experience and versatility could be huge in a touring or world cup squad. Plus he offers a different option to Wood or Croft which against packs such as SA's could prove to be very useful.

ASBO - Is LC-D still at prop or has he moved to hooker full time now?

On the others Ewers and Nowell could be part of a large pack of very talented players I could see pushing for a few spots on the summer tour.

Back row - Morgan, Vunipola, Robshaw, Wood nailed on other than injuries/resting. That leaves two spots which in my eyes will be fought out between Kvesic, Fraser, Haskell, Ewers and Johnson.

Wing - Wade and Yarde nailed on other than injuries/resting. Again leaves two spots which I'd have contended between May, Sharples and Nowell though I expect Ashton and Strettle will be in Lancaster's mind.

Not sure lineout struggles are covering up that we need to score tries. E.g. see Guscott's article.

On the other hand you can't underestimate how much impact losing lineouts can make.

Of course T.Youngs' throwing wasnt the only reason England lost but it certainly was a factor. England lost momentum. NZ are the best side in the world to beat them pretty much everything needs to work like clockwork.

England weren't scoring tries but they kept the scoreboard ticking over and in that last 10 minutes they were still in the match. 17-3 down to 22-20 shows resilience.

You can't put pressure on the opposition if you don't have momentum.

agree. you can't put pressure on the opposition if you don't have the ball.

I think you can put pressure on if you dont have the ball - big defence force errors...but that and not having momentum is a slightly different thing. If you dont have momentum then your going to go backwards, and that spells trouble against the AB's

much of a muchness. losing 4 own lineouts is not having the ball, especially from penalties, and loses momentum.

It certainly does that

I thought Youngs only lost two and the other stolen from our jumper. Clearly he has an issue throwing with either the current calls or the current jumpers. Youngs didn't take the field until roughly the 60th minute just after the ABs starting coming back into the game and after which we'd throughly failed in attack. 6 points was a poor return for that territory and possession in the second half.

4 out of 6 against the throw was what i read. whether through misthrows or becuase the ABs spotted a chance to compete, had the same outcome. he had better be bombproof when he comes back as top sides are going to exploit any weakness, and pressure may be the trigger.

If pressure was the trigger then I'd have expected to see a weakness on the Lions tour. He's got something like 89% success rate this season in some tough games against Saints and Ulster he was excellent. His wife has had a baby, I wonder if lack of sleep, associated stress and missing training in order to be with her affected him. Certainly he is as fallible as the next hooker when it comes to yipps but where that has happened previously he's normally imperious the game after.

Youngs' throwing was very good on the Lions tour but he has the odd aberration. His miss-throws during this series have been costly but it would be wrong to out all of the blame on his shoulders. He needs to really work on that reliability element of his game as the rest of it is at a very high level.

Rob Webber has had some shocking times with his throwing but seems to have settled well at Bath. He's an alternative but is by no means as reliable as Hartley. Hartley has put in some much better performances for England this series and, whilst i've been highly critical of him, deserves the shirt at present.

As far as the squad for the 6N and tour goes it's difficult to specify individual players at present without seeing more of the AP and HEC closer to the time. Positionally these are the areas i'd like us to look at developing:

4. Ed Slater has been going very well, Attwood deserves some more game time. A little bit more of an edge would be welcome.

6. Tom Wood has been outstanding but beyond that we look a little lost for a decisive choice. I think Haskell should be brought back in or Matt Garvey has been going very well at 6 for Bath. His most recent game against Exeter he was really outstanding. He'd offer a more physical option there. Failing that Carl Fearns has also been going very well and with some more fitness i'd like to see him train with the squad.

10. Owen Farrell has done well this series and has shown some superb qualities coming back from a poor first half in the Australia game. We need to look at our second option though. Someone who can be an alternative tactical choice. Freddie Burns went well in Arg and I can't see why Flood made the bench ahead of him in this series.

13. At IC I think we have the two main contenders in Barritt and 36. Twelvetrees has progressed well this series and would be my long-term choice. Barritt will also be back by the 6N. As far as 13 goes we look very much at sea. I would rather have seen some consistency with Joseph picked for the AIs. The Tomkins experiment has not worked and if anything, has regressed the back play. Henry Trinder or Elliot Daly might be another viable option for some differing style at OC.

11/14. I think we all know the issues around these and it's unfortunate that injuries took their toll. Yarde and Wade should get some time. Failing that Jonny May from the Saxons should get a look-in. David Strettle has had his time in an England shirt as far as i'm concerned.

A relatively long list but not wholesale changes. The main thrust has to be the back play. With Dickson at 9 we need to encourage OF to challenge the line more and offer an option with the likes of Burns/Ford. Get that right and more of the other pieces fall into place. 36 at 12 and Trinder and 13 offer individual, passing and kicking threats making a much more rarified atmosphere for whoever takes the wing spots.

formerly known as Sam wrote:If pressure was the trigger then I'd have expected to see a weakness on the Lions tour. He's got something like 89% success rate this season in some tough games against Saints and Ulster he was excellent. His wife has had a baby, I wonder if lack of sleep, associated stress and missing training in order to be with her affected him. Certainly he is as fallible as the next hooker when it comes to yipps but where that has happened previously he's normally imperious the game after.

lets hope so. i used to play hooker, and throwing was the best part of my game, but once a season i would have a complete shocker. pressure of having to compete w hartley is big too, especially w hartley having 2 such good games on the bounce.