England Saxons v Irish Wolfhounds - Kingsholm

25th January 2014 - Live on Sky Sports 1 (4:45pm Kick Off)

Saxons XXIII to face Ireland Wolfhounds:

1. A Waller
2. J George
3. T Mercy
4. C Matthews
5. G Kruis
6. C Clarke (c)
7. L Wallace
8. D Ewers
9. J Simpson
10. F Burns
11. C Sharples
12. S Hill
13. M Hopper
14. A Watson
15. E Daly

16. D Ward 17. N Catt 18. S Wilson 19. E Stooke 20. S Dickinson 21. D Lewis 22. H Slade 23. R Miller


Ireland XXIII

15. Felix Jones (Shannon/Munster)
14. Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
13. Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht)
12. Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
11. Craig Gilroy (Dungannon/Ulster)
10. Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster)
9. Isaac Boss (Terenure College/Leinster)
1. David Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster)
2. Rob Herring (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
3. Martin Moore (Lansdowne/Leinster)
4. Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
5. Dan Tuohy (Ballymena/Ulster)
6. Rhys Ruddock (St. Mary’s College/Leinster) (capt)
7. Tommy O’Donnell (UL Bohemians/Munster)
8. Robin Copeland (Cardiff Blues)

Replacements:

16. Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster)
17. Jack McGrath (St. Mary’s College/Leinster)
18. Stephen Archer (Cork Constitution/Munster)
19. Robbie Diack (Malone/Ulster)
20. Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
21. Kieran Marmion (Corinthians/Connacht)
22. Ian Keatley (Young Munster/Munster)
23. Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster)

1. N Catt
2. J George
3. W Collier
4. C Matthews
5. G Kitchener
6. D Ewers
7. J Wallace
8. S Dickinson
9. D Lewis
10. F Burns
11. T Varndell
12. S Hill
13. E Daly
14. S Rokoduguni
15. M Tait

16. D Ward 17. A Waller 18. S Wilson 19. G Kruis 20. J Gibson 21. J Simpson 22. H Slade 23. M Benjamin

Pretty much picks itself with that squad size but there'll be rotation for the Scotland game. I like the look of the pack generally. Ewers has played 6 plenty of times and there's Gibson on the bench as a different option. Be nice to see Wallace's break-down skills against the Irish.

Its a huge step forward from the last one i think...lots of potential future there...and a few cheeky moves by Lancs aswell....Scott Wilson being kept away from the Scots for example...

I guess Ewers decided he's better going for England than Zimbabwe after all.

Ewers, Billy V and Ben Morgan gives us 3 cracking options...

I wasn't aware that Semesa Rokoduguni qualified!
He seems like a quality player. Looks like a good squad - I would like to see a starting 15 of -
Catt
George
Collier
Kitchener
C.Mathews
Gibson
Wallace
Dickinson
Simpson
Burns
Rokoduguni
Eliot Daly
Joseph
Benjamin
Tait

Who is Saxons captain? I'd go with:

Tait
Benjamin
Joseph
Daly
Varndell
Slade
Lewis

Don't really care enough about the forwards, none of them interest me enough except for Catt, Dickinson, Clark and Wallace (who, incidentally, I'd have as captain)

I wasn't aware that Semesa Rokoduguni qualified!

Yeah , we've been discussing that on the England thread...afraid im against it...but ah its been discussed to death on there   

Overall generally happy...didnt notice Elliott Daly in there aswell...now THAT's a good move.

SuperGuinness69 wrote:Who is Saxons captain? I'd go with:

Tait
Benjamin
Joseph
Daly
Varndell
Slade
Lewis

Don't really care enough about the forwards, none of them interest me enough except for Catt, Dickinson, Clark and Wallace (who, incidentally, I'd have as captain)

Why those in particular...3/4 of those (Wallace is the exception) are 3 of the least interesting in the squad!

Jamie George has been called up. Logic prevails.

If Jamie George starts then George Kruis should start in the 2nd row also.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

I wasn't aware that Semesa Rokoduguni qualified!

Yeah , we've been discussing that on the England thread...afraid im against it...but ah its been discussed to death on there   

Overall generally happy...didnt notice Elliott Daly in there aswell...now THAT's a good move.

Yes agreed, and with Tait in there i'm guessing he'll be the 13 as well! Particularly with Trinder and Joseph out.

beshocked wrote:Jamie George has been called up. Logic prevails.

If Jamie George starts then George Kruis should start in the 2nd row also.

Actually yes that's a good call beshocked. Club partners and i'm assuming Kruis' line-out calling is good enough for him to be the fixture at 5 next season for Sarries?

Nice to see Jamie George finally get in there. He's in the mould of Webber and Hartley but has more potential going forward I feel, particularly with age on his side.

I'd actually have Kitchener as Captain, he played a blinder in this fixture last year.

Chjw131 wrote:1. N Catt
2. J George
3. W Collier
4. C Matthews
5. G Kitchener
6. D Ewers
7. J Wallace
8. S Dickinson
9. D Lewis
10. F Burns
11. T Varndell
12. S Hill
13. E Daly
14. S Rokoduguni
15. M Tait

16. D Ward 17. A Waller 18. S Wilson 19. G Kruis 20. J Gibson 21. J Simpson 22. H Slade 23. M Benjamin

Pretty much picks itself with that squad size but there'll be rotation for the Scotland game. I like the look of the pack generally. Ewers has played 6 plenty of times and there's Gibson on the bench as a different option. Be nice to see Wallace's break-down skills against the Irish.

I'd pick quite a different 15!

Tait
Benjamin
Daly
Hill
Varndell
Burns/Slade
Lewis
Ewers/Dickinson
Wallace (c)
Kruis/Ewers
Matthews/Kruis
Kitchener
Wilson
George
Waller

From an Irish perspective I can see something like this, however Schmidt might go for something more experimental

David Kilcoyne (Munster)
Damien Varley (Munster)
Martin Moore (Leinster)
Iain Henderson (Ulster)
Dan Tuohy (Ulster)
Robbie Diack (Ulster)
Tommy O'Donnell (Munster)
Robin Copeland (Cardiff Blues)
Kieran Marmion (Connacht)
Ian Keatley (Munster)
Keith Earls (Munster)
Luke Marshall (Ulster)
Robbie Henshaw (Connacht)
Fergus McFadden (Leinster)
Felix Jones (Munster)

ha you guys are going to get minced!

Jokes  From an English perspective the teams above look pretty strong, it should be a cracking game, I'm actually really looking forward to it this year.

slane wrote:From an Irish perspective I can see something like this, however Schmidt might go for something more experimental  

David Kilcoyne (Munster)
Damien Varley (Munster)
Martin Moore (Leinster)
Iain Henderson (Ulster)
Dan Tuohy (Ulster)
Robbie Diack (Ulster)
Tommy O'Donnell (Munster)
Robin Copeland (Cardiff Blues)
Kieran Marmion (Connacht)
Ian Keatley (Munster)
Keith Earls (Munster)
Luke Marshall (Ulster)
Robbie Henshaw (Connacht)
Fergus McFadden (Leinster)
Felix Jones (Munster)

ha you guys are going to get minced!

Jokes  From an English perspective the teams above look pretty strong, it should be a cracking game, I'm actually really looking forward to it this year.

Looks a good team. Ian Henderson has impressed me whenever i've seen him play, likewise Marmion. From what i've seen of Keatley he hasn't looked bad but i'd rather see JJ Hanrahan starting for you guys.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:1. N Catt
2. J George
3. W Collier
4. C Matthews
5. G Kitchener
6. D Ewers
7. J Wallace
8. S Dickinson
9. D Lewis
10. F Burns
11. T Varndell
12. S Hill
13. E Daly
14. S Rokoduguni
15. M Tait

16. D Ward 17. A Waller 18. S Wilson 19. G Kruis 20. J Gibson 21. J Simpson 22. H Slade 23. M Benjamin

Pretty much picks itself with that squad size but there'll be rotation for the Scotland game. I like the look of the pack generally. Ewers has played 6 plenty of times and there's Gibson on the bench as a different option. Be nice to see Wallace's break-down skills against the Irish.

I'd pick quite a different 15!

Tait
Benjamin
Daly
Hill
Varndell
Burns/Slade
Lewis
Ewers/Dickinson
Wallace (c)
Kruis/Ewers
Matthews/Kruis
Kitchener
Wilson
George
Waller

That's the beauty of selection! Nice potential backrow combination though. I think Kruis is nailed on as a SR but has had some outstanding games at BS for Sarries. Benjamin is another more physical winger but I do like Rokoduguni's power which gives a bit more balance to the back-line. Having said that Sam Hill looks a great prospect as a physical 12.

Should be a good game if Freddie can get his mind straight. It's the best opportunity he's got to reclaim the bench spot from Ford at present.

Chjw131 wrote:

slane wrote:From an Irish perspective I can see something like this, however Schmidt might go for something more experimental  

David Kilcoyne (Munster)
Damien Varley (Munster)
Martin Moore (Leinster)
Iain Henderson (Ulster)
Dan Tuohy (Ulster)
Robbie Diack (Ulster)
Tommy O'Donnell (Munster)
Robin Copeland (Cardiff Blues)
Kieran Marmion (Connacht)
Ian Keatley (Munster)
Keith Earls (Munster)
Luke Marshall (Ulster)
Robbie Henshaw (Connacht)
Fergus McFadden (Leinster)
Felix Jones (Munster)

ha you guys are going to get minced!

Jokes  From an English perspective the teams above look pretty strong, it should be a cracking game, I'm actually really looking forward to it this year.

Looks a good team. Ian Henderson has impressed me whenever i've seen him play, likewise Marmion. From what i've seen of Keatley he hasn't looked bad but i'd rather see JJ Hanrahan starting for you guys.

I agree, JJ has unreal potential, for me he's like a mix between ROG and Sexton skill wise but unfortunately he's not first choice for Munster, yet. However, I think when he takes the 10 jersey for Munster he will become Sextons replacement.

Should be interesting to see how the Sextons backline goes with Burns at 10. England have a quality pack but IMO they need a few more quality players in their backline to contact play with the forwards.

Out of those mentioned for the Sextons squad is their any you guys think might make it into England's first team for the 6 Nations?

slane wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:

slane wrote:From an Irish perspective I can see something like this, however Schmidt might go for something more experimental  

David Kilcoyne (Munster)
Damien Varley (Munster)
Martin Moore (Leinster)
Iain Henderson (Ulster)
Dan Tuohy (Ulster)
Robbie Diack (Ulster)
Tommy O'Donnell (Munster)
Robin Copeland (Cardiff Blues)
Kieran Marmion (Connacht)
Ian Keatley (Munster)
Keith Earls (Munster)
Luke Marshall (Ulster)
Robbie Henshaw (Connacht)
Fergus McFadden (Leinster)
Felix Jones (Munster)

ha you guys are going to get minced!

Jokes  From an English perspective the teams above look pretty strong, it should be a cracking game, I'm actually really looking forward to it this year.

Looks a good team. Ian Henderson has impressed me whenever i've seen him play, likewise Marmion. From what i've seen of Keatley he hasn't looked bad but i'd rather see JJ Hanrahan starting for you guys.

I agree, JJ has unreal potential, for me he's like a mix between ROG and Sexton skill wise but unfortunately he's not first choice for Munster, yet. However, I think when he takes the 10 jersey for Munster he will become Sextons replacement.

Should be interesting to see how the Sextons backline goes with Burns at 10. England have a quality pack but IMO they need a few more quality players in their backline to contact play with the forwards.

Out of those mentioned for the Sextons squad is their any you guys think might make it into England's first team for the 6 Nations?  

Are you a Johnny Sexton fan?   

Agree on the backline point, it should be a nicely balanced back-line for once though. Burns plays flat and attacks the gain-line well, his kicking from hand can be excellent. Sam Hill is a big direct runner and went extremely well during the U20 JWC.

Daly at 13 is a special talent and many hope that's where he'll nail down a position rather than FB. Rokoduguni, whatever people's opinion on his eligibility is a powerful runner with good speed. On the other wing Varndell is an out and out pace man and at the back Matt Tait offers a bit more of the magic along with Daly.

As far as anyone breaking into the seniors I don't see anyone doing so bar injury. The most likely to be called for at present I would say is Wallace as he's been playing some excellent games. I hope Ewers can put in a top performance and force his way into contention as a bench option over Kvesic, who's not had the best season so far.

Shock, horror, as England poach another pacific islander....

  

slane wrote:From an Irish perspective I can see something like this, however Schmidt might go for something more experimental  

David Kilcoyne (Munster)
Damien Varley (Munster)
Martin Moore (Leinster)
Iain Henderson (Ulster)
Dan Tuohy (Ulster)
Robbie Diack (Ulster)
Tommy O'Donnell (Munster)
Robin Copeland (Cardiff Blues)
Kieran Marmion (Connacht)
Ian Keatley (Munster)
Keith Earls (Munster)
Luke Marshall (Ulster)
Robbie Henshaw (Connacht)
Fergus McFadden (Leinster)
Felix Jones (Munster)

ha you guys are going to get minced!

Jokes  From an English perspective the teams above look pretty strong, it should be a cracking game, I'm actually really looking forward to it this year.

That's one of the strongest Wolfhounds line-up I've seen.

Great to see this game is being televised

Dissapointed not to see Hart getting called up just to get him capped, so the French don't get any ideas. He has apparently been brilliant this season and has made a couple of Top 14 team of the weeks.

Chjw131 wrote:Agree on the backline point, it should be a nicely balanced back-line for once though. Burns plays flat and attacks the gain-line well, his kicking from hand can be excellent. Sam Hill is a big direct runner and went extremely well during the U20 JWC.

Daly at 13 is a special talent and many hope that's where he'll nail down a position rather than FB. Rokoduguni, whatever people's opinion on his eligibility is a powerful runner with good speed. On the other wing Varndell is an out and out pace man and at the back Matt Tait offers a bit more of the magic along with Daly.

As far as anyone breaking into the seniors I don't see anyone doing so bar injury. The most likely to be called for at present I would say is Wallace as he's been playing some excellent games. I hope Ewers can put in a top performance and force his way into contention as a bench option over Kvesic, who's not had the best season so far.

Agree with all of that! The potential for the backline is huge but I'm pretty concerned it's going to be ruined by Burns if he beings his form with him. It'd be depressing as hell to watch those backs have to tackle and defend turnovers all game.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

I wasn't aware that Semesa Rokoduguni qualified!

Yeah , we've been discussing that on the England thread...afraid im against it...but ah its been discussed to death on there   

Overall generally happy...didnt notice Elliott Daly in there aswell...now THAT's a good move.

If the guy is willing to put his life on the line for this country, if he is good enough then I have no problems with him representing this country at any sport. He has been here a while, did not come over here to play rugby professionally but to join the army, whom he represented many times. I would much rather have someone like Semesa play for England than someone who suddenly discovers they have a great aunt who was born over here and has to be taught the words to the national anthem,

Jamie George looked impressive when he came on for Sarries today. I know it was a walkover vs Connacht but he's mobile with good hands.

With the recent changes coming in - I am now expecting a bit of a tonking.
We've got a lot more of the U20's crop in there and as good as they are - this might feel a bit like a men against boys match. Good character building though.

Stookes has been called up for this

Still think it will be close. Bit safe and not my choices in the call ups and our bench won't be as strong as it could be but the possible starting 15 could still be very good, and guys like Daly and Slade have played relatively big matches before and I don't think they will be too overawed

Daly at 13 with Miller at FB seems the obvious choice, but Hopper at 13 and Daly at FB wouldn't surprise me.

Anyone know when the team is named?

This is always a competitive game. England Saxons have the upper hand in terms of recent record but its rare for the game reach the last 10 minutes without still being in the balance and one-sided score lines are rare.

Cyril wrote:Great to see this game is being televised

Yep. Love these games too and the under 20s games. Nice foreplay for the main event.

BamBam wrote:Daly at 13 with Miller at FB seems the obvious choice, but Hopper at 13 and Daly at FB wouldn't surprise me.

Anyone know when the team is named?

I bet you £1million of fantasy rugby money that it's Daly at 15 and Hopper at 13

ChequeredJersey wrote:

BamBam wrote:Daly at 13 with Miller at FB seems the obvious choice, but Hopper at 13 and Daly at FB wouldn't surprise me.

Anyone know when the team is named?

I bet you £1million of fantasy rugby money that it's Daly at 15 and Hopper at 13

Ha, I think you're probably right, and I need every penny . When I said obvious choice, I should have added obvious to me..

And me bro, but it looks like Daly is going to be put at 15 and thus not get England time until all of Goode, Tait, Foden and Brown age a bit and not fulfil his obvious potential at 13 whilst we will try every single 13, 12 and probably other positions under the sun to cover for Manu, watching with dismay but no surprise when none of them quite work

Doh   it does look as though that might be a distinct possibility - I wonder if it might be on him to decide that he definitely wants to be a 13, and thus push his club to only play him elsewhere in real emergencies

Tough for a young player to do

Agree with that Chequeredjersey. It's so frustating seeing a huge problem position like 13 yet one of the potential 13s will be played at 15 despite that being a position England can easily cover.

E.g. even Nowell,Watson and May can play at 15!

Suppose Lancaster is a full back fan though!

Very sad for Daly that he's ended up in a lose lose position really. I think his best bet is to push for the 13 shirt at Wasps once Southwell and Masi come back from injury.

Having said that the original selection seemed to lend itself to Tait at FB and Daly at 13 so it's just possible that we'll see Miller stepping straight in for Tait and Hopper take the bench spot.

Glad to see Elliot Stooke come in, he's put in some strong performances and he has lots of potential. A bit more of a heavyweight than Launchbury et al but still puts in a huge work rate. I can see him and Kruis starting in the SR with Matthews on the bench. That's a powerful locking combination all round.

I like that Alex Waller is in the squad. When Tiny and Mujati left Saints many people wondered how they were going to be replaced. It seems like there has been a master plan after all. He has been managed carefully for the last 2-3 years getting lots of minutes off the bench, but learning his trade and not becoming exhausted/ jaded. Now all of a sudden Saints have this good scrummaging young prop that has a lot of energy and has 70+ appearances for his club.

It seems the model way to develop a prop in my opinion. It’s not a criticism, but I sometimes worry that guys like Joe Marler and Mako Vunipola are going to be worn out by the time they are 27-28.

Is Waller a TH Cumbrian?

No he's a loosehead, which is unfortunate given how the positions stack up.

Hmm - that's the problem. We have a lot of good LH's at the moment.
THs are a rare breed - But it is the tougher of the 2 positions.

Well dont forget, these young kids will have been doing plenty of training with the seniors...so being a LH Waller will have been matched with Mujati a lot. That in itself is great training as he was a beast of a TH...

All the clubs are benefitting from this now...and i think why we're seeing so many youngsters really emerging.

Daly needs to be a 13. And he needs to be playing simple as that. But i just cant work out what Lancaster is looking for in his backs.

propdavid_london wrote:Hmm - that's the problem.  We have a lot of good LH's at the moment.  
THs are a rare breed - But it is the tougher of the 2 positions.

After Cole and Davy Wilson there is a bit of a void...however i have huge hope for Scott Wilson really making the grade. And i also think Keiron Brookes performances this season have been very impressive ironically probably better than Wilson this season...

In fact if England we're struggling i for one would be more than happy with Brookes on the bench (behind Cole) in France. He's that good, has size, been immense in the scrums and has shown excellent carrying this season aswell.

Not sure about the rest of the prem clubs TH's resources..though Quins appear good at producing TH's so see how Collier goes...and Sarries and Leicester are bound to have a few gems coming through...not to mention Saints.

Hi GF - I am not sure about Brooks, having said that I really haven't seen much of him. But when I have seen him I don't think he's destroyed his opposite number either.
If he is that good then why did Tigers get rid/or let him go? Was he injured when with them?
How come Deano doesn't start him in more games?

propdavid_london wrote:Hi GF - I am not sure about Brooks, having said that I really haven't seen much of him.  But when I have seen him I don't think he's destroyed his opposite number either.
If he is that good then why did Tigers get rid/or let him go?  Was he injured when with them?  
How come Deano doesn't start him in more games?  

TBF, he did actually destroy Marler, whose form has been pretty good this season both for us and England, when Falcons played us. It was just overshadowed by us destroying Falcons in every respect other than the scrum

I hope Thomas steps up his scrummaging, he is clearly rated as one for the future by Rowntree, and he knows a bit about these things.

In a way we almost don't want to see too many 21 year old props tearing things up as it means they are more likely to be over played and develop niggling injuries. On the LH side, both Catt and Waller have had to wait their turn, which may well help them in the long run. Catt was in the U20's side with Corbs, but their careers have taken different trajectories since then...

GeordieFalcon wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:Hmm - that's the problem.  We have a lot of good LH's at the moment.  
THs are a rare breed - But it is the tougher of the 2 positions.

After Cole and Davy Wilson there is a bit of a void...however i have huge hope for Scott Wilson really making the grade. And i also think Keiron Brookes performances this season have been very impressive ironically probably better than Wilson this season...

In fact if England we're struggling i for one would be more than happy with Brookes on the bench (behind Cole) in France. He's that good, has size, been immense in the scrums and has shown excellent carrying this season aswell.

Not sure about the rest of the prem clubs TH's resources..though Quins appear good at producing TH's so see how Collier goes...and Sarries and Leicester are bound to have a few gems coming through...not to mention Saints.

I've been impressed with Brookes when i've seen him, he was good before moving to Tigers. There is a bit of a gap from Cole and Wilson but Cole was an unusually early developer for a TH. Wilson has taken time but is of really high quality in my opinion.

Henry Thomas is great in the loose but his scrummaging isn't there yet. Collier has looked pretty good at times and kept PDJ on the bench, another who hasn't developed as well as one might have hoped.

What we seem to lack at the moment is a really destructive TH but that seems to be the case the world over at the moment. When the new laws came in there was some talk about the LH being a lot more pivotal now and perhaps that's just as well in our case. I wonder if Sheridan had been a TH whether he'd still be playing for England?

propdavid_london wrote:Hi GF - I am not sure about Brooks, having said that I really haven't seen much of him.  But when I have seen him I don't think he's destroyed his opposite number either.
If he is that good then why did Tigers get rid/or let him go?  Was he injured when with them?  
How come Deano doesn't start him in more games?  

1) Because he suffered a list of injuries whilst with the Tigers, and then his fondness for Nandos saw him absolutely balloon.

2) He has returned to us and been hammered in the fitness and had his injuries sorted, well nearly...he's had a couple of injury issues since he's been back...but they've been dealt with.

3) Deans selections are an absolute minefield. He's been playing a hooker (Rob Vickers) at LH when we have Montanella (a beast of a french man) and young Scottish LH Shiells who is excellent available...so dont ask me about why brookes doesnt play every game.
 
We also have three crackin TH's, Scott Wilson who is in the Saxons and Olvier Tomastshyk...who has been excellent for us and Brookes. So maybe just squad rotation? Who knows...

So of the current crop we're likely to see:

1. A Waller
2. J George
3. T Mercey
4. C Matthews
5. G Kruis
6. C Clark
7. L Wallace
8. D Ewers
9. J Simpson
10. F Burns
11. T Varndell
12. S Hill
13. E Daly
14. S Rokoduguni
15. R Miller

16. D Ward 17. N Catt 18. S Wilson 19. E Stooke 20. S Dickinson 21. D Lewis 22. H Slade 23. M Hopper

I don't think that's a bad side at all, it's certainly got to be one of the youngest Saxons sides seen for a while but I think it generally has a nice balance to it. Losing Collier and Kitchener is a blow but I think they'll get the win at Kingsholm.