England Saxons v Irish Wolfhounds - Kingsholm

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25th January 2014 - Live on Sky Sports 1 (4:45pm Kick Off)

Saxons XXIII to face Ireland Wolfhounds:

1. A Waller
2. J George
3. T Mercy
4. C Matthews
5. G Kruis
6. C Clarke (c)
7. L Wallace
8. D Ewers
9. J Simpson
10. F Burns
11. C Sharples
12. S Hill
13. M Hopper
14. A Watson
15. E Daly

16. D Ward 17. N Catt 18. S Wilson 19. E Stooke 20. S Dickinson 21. D Lewis 22. H Slade 23. R Miller


Ireland XXIII

15. Felix Jones (Shannon/Munster)
14. Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
13. Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht)
12. Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
11. Craig Gilroy (Dungannon/Ulster)
10. Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster)
9. Isaac Boss (Terenure College/Leinster)
1. David Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster)
2. Rob Herring (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
3. Martin Moore (Lansdowne/Leinster)
4. Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
5. Dan Tuohy (Ballymena/Ulster)
6. Rhys Ruddock (St. Mary’s College/Leinster) (capt)
7. Tommy O’Donnell (UL Bohemians/Munster)
8. Robin Copeland (Cardiff Blues)

Replacements:

16. Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster)
17. Jack McGrath (St. Mary’s College/Leinster)
18. Stephen Archer (Cork Constitution/Munster)
19. Robbie Diack (Malone/Ulster)
20. Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
21. Kieran Marmion (Corinthians/Connacht)
22. Ian Keatley (Young Munster/Munster)
23. Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster)

15. Felix Jones (Shannon/Munster)
14. Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
13. Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht)
12. Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
11. Craig Gilroy (Dungannon/Ulster)
10. Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster)
9. Isaac Boss (Terenure College/Leinster)
1. David Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster)
2. Rob Herring (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
3. Martin Moore (Lansdowne/Leinster)
4. Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
5. Dan Tuohy (Ballymena/Ulster)
6. Rhys Ruddock (St. Mary’s College/Leinster) (capt)
7. Tommy O’Donnell (UL Bohemians/Munster)
8. Robin Copeland (Cardiff Blues)

Replacements:

16. Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster)
17. Jack McGrath (St. Mary’s College/Leinster)
18. Stephen Archer (Cork Constitution/Munster)
19. Robbie Diack (Malone/Ulster)
20. Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
21. Kieran Marmion (Corinthians/Connacht)
22. Ian Keatley (Young Munster/Munster)
23. Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster)

That is an incredibly strong looking Wolfhounds side.

Actually I see I have been duped - McFadden is at 14, which means a 3 way fight to partner Fitzgerald.

What I like about the Wolfhounds side is how many ball carriers we have in that pack. Henderson, Tuohy, O'Donnell, Kilcoyne, Moore, Copeland etc. Pretty much everyone in that pack is capable of taking the ball on.

Notch wrote:Alright Guns, now I'm not sure if you're circumventing the swear filter or if you're comparing yourself to a South African back row who qualifies for Ireland on residency...

Here's a thing; how about you guys pick 5 exciting England Saxons players to watch and I'll try and do the same for Ireland.

1) Martin Moore- the big Leinster tight head ousted Mike Ross from the team for their final home game in the Heineken Cup and continues to impress. Should win a host of caps.
2) Iain Henderson- played lock at Under 20s before impressing at blindside for Ulster. He's used mainly as a lock this year but is a highly mobile ball carrier with real athleticism and power.
3) Robin Copeland- the Irishman has been one of the real bright spots in Cardiff Blues' season, a dynamic ball carrying 8 who is heading back to Ireland and Munster for next season
4) Ian Madigan- one of the most exciting or frustrating or both players in Ireland, depending on the day. Incredibly talented footballer who has the speed of thought and skill to play right at the gain line whatever number  is on his back. Has struggled a bit with his decision making and been in and out of the Leinster team since Gopperth arrived. A confidence player looking to regain some confidence.
5) Robbie Henshaw- a real contender to replace BOD long term, highly rated by the Irish coaching staff and made his debut against Australia. Tall, fast, strong- he's seen as a player who can develop into a modern strike running outside back.

For me-

1) Eliott Daly- should be at 13 but better at 15 than not at all. Starting at 15 for Wasps, played in our runner up u20s side and has the boot (plus kicking boot which I think we need to try and get used more), the pace and the step plus a great defender despite his size. Real attacking spark and played for the Baabaas against the Lions and England last Summer and was one of the best players on the pitch, completely unfazed, in both games in a losing, actually overwhelmed, side.

2) Luke Wallace - bias here, but has looked great at HEC level for Quins. Captaincy material, really quick for a flanker but also happy to get invoplved, works well with Robshaw after a shaky start and a good linkman with great hands. Can be found out on the wing but mostly in defence and covering kicks which is a strength and we think that's a deliberate tactic. Also a "real 7" and good on the floor

3) Jamie George- Been feted as the next England Hooker for a while, but struggled to start for Sarries behind Brits and Smit. Got some game time this season and is a powerful carrier, good at the hooker basics and has scored tries. Learnt from Smit and Brits which as good an education as a Hooker could ever get

4) Anthony Watson - being looked at as a possible winger (though really a FB who can genuinely play wing) for England. Physical, and bigger than he looks, with a step and pace and good all around game. Real REAL pace and has looked good for Bath. Some say not scoring enough tries but that can be hard with Bath's style and pitch, and has threatended defences and beaten plenty of men and I think the best back 3s work on balance like a backrow (Cohen-Robinson-Lewsey for example) and not both wingers need to be outright finishers.

5) George Kruis - could have picked Matthews but I marginally rate Kruis more. Has played HEC rugby with Sarries at looked class (he outplayed the whole Munster pack last year) at 6 and lock and can play either very well. Good in the lineout but also the loose and has the whole package IMO

Saw the try Watson scored for Bath in the last round of the Amlin. Screamer- good prospect.

5 players from the England side:

Jamie George - Young hooker, very good size and speed for the position, really good at the breakdown and a strong scrummager. Have been questions over his throwing in the past, but I think he has improved a lot there.

David Ewers - Been a revelation this season at 8 for Exeter, massive carrier, makes big hits and looks a good offloader too. Still only 22, and effectively learning the position.

Freddie Burns - Most will be familiar, but has been off form so far this season behind a poor Gloucester pack. I hope he gets better ball from the Saxons, if he does and can perform our backline should go well.

Anthony Watson - the boy is special. Not a natural winger, but he is like greased lightning even though he's 6'3. Brilliant counterattacker, and many want to see him line up on the wing in Paris next week.

Elliott Daly - I promise I'm not being an obsessive schoolgirl, this boy is absolute class. I reckon he's a better 13 than 15, but he has all the skills. Massive boot, brilliant outside break, good under the high ball. Some questions over his size for outside centre, but still only 21.

Agree with everyone highlighted so far. For Ireland as well. I'll try and pick some different ones for the sake of balance.

Sam Hill - Young abrasive centre who offers a real carrying threat, in the mould of Picamoles in the sense that he's an iceberg. Good offloading and soft hands. Part of the JWC winning side. Needs to focus on his wider distribution and kicking game. A top top talent though.

Elliot Stooke - Although he's not starting young Stooke could be a real candidate for the England number 4 shirt in a season or two in the mould of Martin Johnson. Big and physical very good in the tight and was probably close to England U20s best player when on show.

Dave Ewers - Zimbabwean by birth but educated and resident here since 13. Can play 6 or 8. At his best i've seen him bump off some heavy duty players, a monster carrier. Has been going very well for Exeter at 8 and could usurp the likes of Haskell as third choice No.8/BS.

Callum Clark - A terrible reputation and well deserved so far. After his ban his from was poor but has been playing well for Saints recently and has all the attributes to be a very tough BS. Has some very good breakdown skills though and with Wallace should be a menace on the floor.

Dave Ward - A converted no.7 and it really shows with some excellent breakdown and ripping skills. Carries hard and a has a real physical presence. Not a spring chicken but has had three MOTM HEC appearances for Quins. Recently against Cleremont and Scarlets.

Got to say i'm slightly stunned that Clark is suddenly the England Saxons captain. He's had average form so far this season for Saints but I could still be happy with his selection to just play. BUT any captain for any sport should be more then just a good player, they need to lead by example and be more of a role model to other players and to the fans watching as well. Clarks disciplinary record is terrible for someone so young and with so few games under his belt, now while yes he should be allowed to move on and put it behind him making him captain to soon after it just reeks as favouritism from Lancaster (along with Clarks constant appearance in all squads no matter the form).

Sorry to rant.

Wow, Clark seems very unpopular even among English fans. I wonder what Lancaster sees in him.

yappysnap wrote:He's had average form so far this season for Saints

Must admit that I'm as surprised as anyone that he's captain but disagree with your assessment of his form this season. He started slowly but his form since October has been good to very good at times culminating in what for me should have been MoM in the Leinster win. If you leave all the disciplinary stuff out of the equation for now he is a traditional BS flanker who is happy to do the unfashionable work to a high standard that allows others to play the more eye catching stuff.

Both Stuart Lancaster and Jim Mallinder rate him very highly so he must be doing something right. He is also the reason that Tom Wood plays 7 and not his England position of 6 for Saints.

Ok lets take the negative aspects away from Clark for the moment...ie discipline...

What does he do good?

He's physical, aggressive, strong at the breakdown, tackles hard. Is he lineout option?

He's served his time, and so long as he can prove he's keeping out of trouble, maybe now he should be allowed to do his talking on the pitch.

This Saxons game will be very interesting for a number of players performances...his, the new Saviour Watson, Daly etc etc...

yappysnap wrote:Got to say i'm slightly stunned that Clark is suddenly the England Saxons captain. He's had average form so far this season for Saints but I could still be happy with his selection to just play. BUT any captain for any sport should be more then just a good player, they need to lead by example and be more of a role model to other players and to the fans watching as well. Clarks disciplinary record is terrible for someone so young and with so few games under his belt, now while yes he should be allowed to move on and put it behind him making him captain to soon after it just reeks as favouritism from Lancaster (along with Clarks constant appearance in all squads no matter the form).

Sorry to rant.

I totally agree with you.

It doesn't rankle for me that Clark got off quite lightly for that infamous act of foul play, it rankles that he is considered Captaincy material after it. If a player with a reputation for foul play is the best representative off the team, then it reflects badly on the team. I'm firmly of the belief that a good Captain is a gentleman off the pitch, and plays fairly on it. Especially at national level when a Captain could be considered an ambassador for a whole country! People often do deserve second chances, and Clark has served the ban he was given. I want to emphasise that I have no problem with him getting the chance to prove he's turned over a new leaf and if he can turnover a new leaf it'll speak favourably of him as a person. I'm just not sure about the message it sends out to make him Captain.

I'm sorry if this posts offends anyone (who is this Irishman to judge? they'll say. They'd have a point to be fair) and I would much rather focus on the positives but it's what I believe. On a positive note, I'm really looking forward to watching this young Saxons side, brimming with talent, take on an Ireland Wolfhounds side that I feel is one of the strongest we've named in years. I really think this years game could be very good.

I agree...making him Captain is a curious one...and one I wouldn't have taken.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Wow, Clark seems very unpopular even among English fans.  I wonder what Lancaster sees in him.

 Lancaster been involved in his coaching since Clarke was 14 I think, in leeds.

B91212 wrote:

yappysnap wrote:He's had average form so far this season for Saints

Must admit that I'm as surprised as anyone that he's captain but disagree with your assessment of his form this season. He started slowly but his form since October has been good to very good at times culminating in what for me should have been MoM in the Leinster win. If you leave all the disciplinary stuff out of the equation for now he is a traditional BS flanker who is happy to do the unfashionable work to a high standard that allows others to play the more eye catching stuff.

Both Stuart Lancaster and Jim Mallinder rate him very highly so he must be doing something right. He is also the reason that Tom Wood plays 7 and not his England position of 6 for Saints.

Yea I was a bit harsh there as you say he was pretty good over the Xmas period and after.

I think your last statements wrong though. IIRC Wood was always meant to play 7 for England (where he plays for Saints) but Robshaws good form after his injury meant that Wood moved in at 6 for England. Luckily the gameplan and Woods versatility seem to mean he can play both well.

Oh and I do think his core skills will make a brilliant Saxons backrow. I'm just totally against him getting the captaincy after having done little to earn it.

It just looks like Lancaster always had this pathway planned out for him and nothing will change it.

Another factor to consider regarding Clarke being made captain is - within the team selected are there any other obvious candidates in this young side?
Clarke is an ex England U-20 captain & as has been mentioned above been recognised as a natural leader from a young age.

Wallace is a clear other candidate

That Irish pack is BIG.

Kilcoyne-known for his carrying
Herring-ok he isn't
Moore-one of the more dynamic tightheads in Ireland
Tuohy-a big carrier
Henderson-a big carrier
Ruddock-a big carrier and tackler
TOD-a big carrier
Copeland-a fairly big carrier

I think this is the strongest Irish wolfhounds pack in many a year

Clark was an U20's captain and SL clearly has him down as someone who can snap back into a leadership role when he is asked to. Maybe it will mean he has a cooler head on the field.

Personally, I would have gone with Wallace as Captain though.

Looking forward to this game, should be a good one I think, hopefully the weather won't ruin it.

yappysnap wrote:Got to say i'm slightly stunned that Clark is suddenly the England Saxons captain. He's had average form so far this season for Saints but I could still be happy with his selection to just play. BUT any captain for any sport should be more then just a good player, they need to lead by example and be more of a role model to other players and to the fans watching as well. Clarks disciplinary record is terrible for someone so young and with so few games under his belt, now while yes he should be allowed to move on and put it behind him making him captain to soon after it just reeks as favouritism from Lancaster (along with Clarks constant appearance in all squads no matter the form).

Sorry to rant.

Yappy,
I have to agree about the selection of Clark as captain.  Surprised indeed.  I think he should earn that opportunity on the pitch in these kinds of matches before consideration, and that is if he could (should?) ever receive that opportunity again.  Rightly or wrongly, for certain things in life there are no second chances.    

On the other hand, I think his form for Saints has been good.  Not at the level of Hartley, Lawes, Wood, Manoa, but just a rung below.  And that is Saxons level.  I think he also gets overshadowed by some of his teammates and is making a conscious effort to keep his head down (for the obvious reasons).   Lancaster has always liked Clark.  

So here we are.  Let's see how we get on.

Not saying it is the correct thing to do given his record and especially the lies told at his hearing but maybe he is one of those players that the coaches feel will behave better with the responsibility of captaincy?

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:That Irish pack is BIG.

Kilcoyne-known for his carrying
Herring-ok he isn't
Moore-one of the more dynamic tightheads in Ireland
Tuohy-a big carrier
Henderson-a big carrier
Ruddock-a big carrier and tackler
TOD-a big carrier
Copeland-a fairly big carrier

I think this is the strongest Irish wolfhounds pack in many a year

We get the picture Pete! BIG CARRIERS   

Royal Navy scrapped all its big carriers.. so England may be in trouble here.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Another factor to consider regarding Clarke being made captain is - within the team selected are there any other obvious candidates in this young side?
Clarke is an ex England U-20 captain & as has been mentioned above been recognised as a natural leader from a young age.

 Yeh but for that U20 side he got sent off.


 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNgWg8kGMWk

 Luke Wallace has captained Harliquins, why not him?

Interview with Gilroy about this game and some other things;

http://thescore.thejournal.ie/craig-gilroy-ireland-wolfhounds-1279317-Jan2014/?utm_source=facebook_short

25 points to 7 to the hounds. Mon Ireland!!

Welly wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Another factor to consider regarding Clarke being made captain is - within the team selected are there any other obvious candidates in this young side?
Clarke is an ex England U-20 captain & as has been mentioned above been recognised as a natural leader from a young age.

 Yeh but for that U20 side he got sent off.


 [video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNgWg8kGMWk[/video]

 Luke Wallace has captained Harliquins, why not him?

Yes a few have mentioned Wallace.
Sometimes you have to trust the guys in charge. I'm sure Luke Wallace would have made a good captain also.
Anyway the back row looks good & will have to be.

Dylan Hartley hasn't a great disciplinary record but Malinder has made him captain....

There a difference to a not great disciplinary record, like Hartley, Johnson and Borthwick and just out and out thuggery.

MrsP wrote:Not saying it is the correct thing to do given his record and especially the lies told at his hearing but maybe he is one of those players that the coaches feel will behave better with the responsibility of captaincy?

Must be.
I've met Clark a number of times, and have spoken to a number of people at Saints about him. Almost everyone says he acts like a good lad, and is a great teammate in training and on the pitch. No one can seem to reconcile his incidents with his usual friendly personality. It's not as if he looks and acts like a crazed lunatic with blood dripping from his canines. Weird, eh?

Even more worrying in my opinion, was that he didn't look like a crazed lunatic while he bent another man's arm back until it broke either.

Looked mildly annoyed but totally calm.

Not good.

GunsGerms wrote:25 points to 7 to the hounds. Mon Ireland!!

I'm getting excited now, but I'm very likely to miss the game- or at least the first half.

Ah no. This is must watch. I assume its on RTE? Do you know?

Welly wrote:There a difference to a not great disciplinary record, like Hartley, Johnson and Borthwick and just out and out thuggery.

Mmm I think that's a dangerous line to go down. Biting an ear not thuggery?
However, both players have served tier time & moved on maybe us to?

GunsGerms wrote:Ah no. This is must watch. I assume its on RTE? Do you know?

Sky Sports.

I'll be there - in the Shed - anyone going ?

MrsP wrote:Even more worrying in my opinion, was that he didn't look like a crazed lunatic while he bent another man's arm back until it broke either.

Looked mildly annoyed but totally calm.

Not good.

I get what you are hypothesising but not sure I want to go there.
I know he has undergone a lot of counseling and has said he is better for it. Can't extrapolate beyond that.
As I said, I wouldn't have him as captain.

I hope he is right!

This game is tomorrow afternoon?

Welly wrote:There a difference to a not great disciplinary record, like Hartley, Johnson and Borthwick and just out and out thuggery.

What has Borthwick done? How the hell can you compare Johnson and Hartley to Borthwick?

It's like comparing a rabid rottweiler to a poodle when it comes to discipline.

I would say Johnson and Hartley are the perfect definition of rugby thugs. Decent players who you would want in your side but thugs nonetheless.

Beshocked you must be joking about Borthwick, right?

Was he thinking of Grewcock? I don't know why you would get confused between the 2 but he certainly was a thug!

I think you must mean Grewcock not Borthwick (although Danny G is a lovely bloke off the pitch).

One was a black belt 18st player with red mist issues, the other is a bloke who gets a cut on his nose from blowing it.

The Clark thing sounds a bit similar to other players who are lovely when sober but become Muppet when drinking

Bathman_in_London wrote:I think you must mean Grewcock not Borthwick (although Danny G is a lovely bloke off the pitch).

One was a black belt 18st player with red mist issues, the other is a bloke who gets a cut on his nose from blowing it.

  Borthwick's nose is perennially cut alright!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Was he thinking of Grewcock? I don't know why you would get confused between the 2 but he certainly was a thug!

 Whoops I was. sorry got the bath days mixed up. Talk about brain fart.


 Although borthwick still isn't a poodle.

Definitely agree. Has to be Grewcock. Another player who you would want on your side but was marred with numerous disciplinary issues.

Borthwick is a wind up merchant at club level but he's definitely not in the same category as Johnson,Hartley or Grewcock. Would have probably been more appreciated for England if he wound up other sides like he does at club level.

Subdued for England yet outspoken at club level.

Interesting thing about Borthwick - perhaps one of the greatest club captains in the AP yet at international level he never was.

Compare that to Martin Johnson who has the reputation of being a bit of a thug yet he's one of England's greatest captains.

Whatever we say about Hartley's ill discipline to be fair he's been a pretty good captain for Saints except for getting sent off in the AP final....  



Cutting a very long story short - I think if combustive characters like Johnson and Hartley can be effective captains then so can Clark.

Robshaw is criticised as England captain because he's arguably too nice a bloke. He hasn't got that edginess.

Mickado wrote:

Bathman_in_London wrote:I think you must mean Grewcock not Borthwick (although Danny G is a lovely bloke off the pitch).

One was a black belt 18st player with red mist issues, the other is a bloke who gets a cut on his nose from blowing it.

  Borthwick's nose is perennially cut alright!

If we get Nigel Owens in the Heineken Cup quarter-final a cutting remark about acting like a footballer might well be enough to set it off, bless him. Interesting sub-plot...

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:That Irish pack is BIG.

Kilcoyne-known for his carrying
Herring-ok he isn't
Moore-one of the more dynamic tightheads in Ireland
Tuohy-a big carrier
Henderson-a big carrier
Ruddock-a big carrier and tackler
TOD-a big carrier
Copeland-a fairly big carrier

I think this is the strongest Irish wolfhounds pack in many a year

Just a slight correction there Pete but Herring is a damn fine carrier. He isn't so much a tight carrier as he is in the Cronin mould of being very pacy and he has very good hands

He's a player who is very good in the wide channels but I wouldn't say he gives a lot of power in the tight- he is quite good at set piece time though. He adds some balance to the pack, I haven't thought of him as more than back-up at this level tbh.

Herring is still comparitively young and I think he has more improvement in him.
He has come a long way since he joined