The New European Cup Thread (Merged)

[Portnoy's Complaint]

First topic message reminder :

Can anyone provide an update on what is going to actually happen from next season?

A factual update would be welcome. As brief as possible.

Opinionated views not so.

[Guest]

Meritocracy is, and always has been a red herring.  It is by definition about rewarding ability.  Nobody can say that the Top X in each league is equal, they are not comparable without playing one another directly and fairly.

Oh I agree. It's the 'fairly' bit I'm disagreeing with, and the fact that it was PRL/LNR and some of their support that were grumbling about meritocracy, and how the Rabo was skewed in favour of succeeding in the HEC. Now that the play offs are skewed in favour of the French and English, they are making all sorts of excuses as to why it's fair...

[LeinsterFan4life]

How many times does it have to be pointed out that the Rabo is not like the other leagues in that it is made up from teams from 4 nations. This is a European comp and each of the Top tier nations deserve to be represented.

It can't be treated like the other leagues.

[HammerofThunor]

its not about "deserve". it's about what was required in order to get a deal through.

rabo have 7 spots. they can allocate them however they wish. in order to get that seventh spot though, they clearly had to concede the home advantage for the english and french teams for the 20th spot, in exchange for which they get 2 teams into the playoffs.

it is what it is.

if you want fairness, top 6 from each league would be nearer the mark.

So forget about meritocracy for the sake of pushing a deal through? Whatever happened to the stance on meritocracy?

Top 6 from each league wouldn't be fair, but there's no point arguing it. You already know the arguments against, and you simply want to use the excuse for the sake of argument.

  

The French and English teams have 'earned' the home games by coming 7th in their leagues compared with the 8th and 9th in the Pro12. The 7th placed Pro12 team has even more advantage in that they automatically qualify.

All of the league playoffs and the current HEC knockouts have the best performing teams play at home. It's not a strange new invention. If the 8th and 9th placed Pro12 teams ever finish above 7th then they can play at home.

[LeinsterFan4life]

But hammer a team can come 6th in the league and still end up in the playoff so your argument doesn't make sense.

[Guest]

its not about "deserve". it's about what was required in order to get a deal through.

rabo have 7 spots. they can allocate them however they wish. in order to get that seventh spot though, they clearly had to concede the home advantage for the english and french teams for the 20th spot, in exchange for which they get 2 teams into the playoffs.

it is what it is.

if you want fairness, top 6 from each league would be nearer the mark.

So forget about meritocracy for the sake of pushing a deal through? Whatever happened to the stance on meritocracy?

Top 6 from each league wouldn't be fair, but there's no point arguing it. You already know the arguments against, and you simply want to use the excuse for the sake of argument.

  

The French and English teams have 'earned' the home games by coming 7th in their leagues compared with the 8th and 9th in the Pro12. The 7th placed Pro12 team has even more advantage in that they automatically qualify.

All of the league playoffs and the current HEC knockouts have the best performing teams play at home. It's not a strange new invention. If the 8th and 9th placed Pro12 teams ever finish above 7th then they can play at home.

The 7th placed Rabo team doesn't automatically qualify. A team can come 7th and still miss out. 7 teams will qualify if that's what you mean.

"All of the league playoffs and the current HEC knockouts have the best performing teams play at home. It's not a strange new invention. If the 8th and 9th placed Pro12 teams ever finish above 7th then they can play at home"

Excellent Hammer. I will add this to the list of excuses being dreamt up here. They would be playing to get entry into the Euro Cup. A long way from knockouts. The qualifying teams get to play home and away in the interests of fairness. If the 8th and 9th ever finish above 7th they would cease to be 8th or 9th.

[Exiledinborders]

Personally, I don't think Treviso will develop unless exposed to top level competition. Their results have improved over the years and most teams have been 'outclassed' at one point or another in the Heineken Cup.  We're not going to agree clearly.

I think teams develop by playing teams better than them but not by playing teams much better than them. After all in the Challenge Cup they will be playing teams like Stade Francais and Wasps who are pretty good teams.

[HammerofThunor]

But hammer a team can come 6th in the league and still end up in the playoff so your argument doesn't make sense.

No sure what that's referencing. If it's about the qualifying playoffs, then 6th in the Pro12 wouldn't be in the league playoffs so they are free to play in the qualifying Euro playoffs during the league playoffs...if that makes sense.

God damn it Munchkin. If all the Irish teams finish 1-4th, the Welsh finish 5-8th and the scots and Italians finish last then the 6th and 7th teams would be in the playoffs. Which would mean 6th would be ahead of 7th in the Franglo leagues, meaning they should be playing at home.    Hoisted by my own petard there wasn't I. Shh, we'll pretend it never happened   

[Guest]

But hammer a team can come 6th in the league and still end up in the playoff so your argument doesn't make sense.

No sure what that's referencing. If it's about the qualifying playoffs, then 6th in the Pro12 wouldn't be in the league playoffs so they are free to play in the qualifying Euro playoffs during the league playoffs...if that makes sense.

God damn it Munchkin. If all the Irish teams finish 1-4th, the Welsh finish 5-8th and the scots and Italians finish last then the 6th and 7th teams would be in the playoffs. Which would mean 6th would be ahead of 7th in the Franglo leagues, meaning they should be playing at home.    Hoisted by my own petard there wasn't I. Shh, we'll pretend it never happened   

   Yep, think a mulligan's ok on that one   

[HammerofThunor]

[quinsforever]

How the rabo awards places is up to them. So it is the 8th and 9th choice qualifiers, they just may not be in 8th and 9th positions

[Engine#4]

Personally, I don't think Treviso will develop unless exposed to top level competition. Their results have improved over the years and most teams have been 'outclassed' at one point or another in the Heineken Cup.  We're not going to agree clearly.

I think teams develop by playing teams better than them but not by playing teams much better than them.  After all in the Challenge Cup they will be playing teams like Stade Francais and Wasps who are pretty good teams.

Fair enough, that's your opinion and you're well entitled to it. I just think the visit of a big team can do wonders for smaller clubs both in terms of experience and drumming up interest and cash. A bit like when New Zealand turn up to Dublin and give us a shellacking. The stadium is packed and many who would not normally follow rugby are suddenly interested.

Anyway it still brings us back to fact that mid-table Franglo teams, like Wasps and Stade, will get home advantage and all the perks that go with it versus mid-table Rabo teams (potentially a 6th place Munster 2012 or Ulster 2011) which is not, as has been claimed, a meritocratic system.

[Exiledinborders]

How the rabo awards places is up to them. So it is the 8th and 9th choice qualifiers, they just may not be in 8th and 9th positions

Exactly, Rabo gets an extra automatic place. They have decided that they do not want to put forward the best seven teams but to award places not to the best teams but the least bad Italian team (in future years that could be least bad scottish, Irish or Welsh team). That is up to them but they still get an automatic extra place which justifies the English and French teams getting a home play-off place.

[Exiledinborders]

Personally, I don't think Treviso will develop unless exposed to top level competition. Their results have improved over the years and most teams have been 'outclassed' at one point or another in the Heineken Cup.  We're not going to agree clearly.

I think teams develop by playing teams better than them but not by playing teams much better than them.  After all in the Challenge Cup they will be playing teams like Stade Francais and Wasps who are pretty good teams.

Fair enough, that's your opinion and you're well entitled to it. I just think the visit of a big team can do wonders for smaller clubs both in terms of experience and drumming up interest and cash.  A bit like when New Zealand turn up to Dublin and give us a shellacking.  The stadium is packed and many who would not normally follow rugby are suddenly interested.

Anyway it still brings us back to fact that mid-table Franglo teams, like Wasps and Stade, will get home advantage and all the perks that go with it versus mid-table Rabo teams (potentially a 6th place Munster 2012 or Ulster 2011) which is not, as has been claimed, a meritocratic system.

You are right it is not meritocratic for 6th placed team not to qualify. However that is the choice of the Rabo Unions not the English or French.

[Notch]

How the rabo awards places is up to them. So it is the 8th and 9th choice qualifiers, they just may not be in 8th and 9th positions

Exactly, Rabo gets an extra automatic place. They have decided that they do not want to put forward the best seven teams but to award places not to the best teams but the least bad Italian team (in future years that could be least bad scottish, Irish or Welsh team). That is up to them but they still get an automatic extra place which justifies the English and French teams getting a home play-off place.

"We've" decided indeed- thats the problem. There is no 'we'. We, for me, is the IRFU not the Pro12. If the IRFU was just aggressively pursuing their own interest they would probably have tried to insist on it being the Top 7 of the league that qualifies automatically regardless of nation but we make up just one quarter of the administrative side of the Pro12. There are four unions in the Pro12 with different priorities and needs that have to be compromised. You appreciate that the Italians wouldn't have signed the deal if this wasn't put in place and we'd still be at the negotiating table? And why should they? This is a competition with teams from six unions. No union is going to agree they should not have representation in the main tournament. It's completely unreasonable to think that any union would just sign that away. Thats what this whole process has been about, the English and French clubs trying to bully everyone else into shoehorning your league model onto our system.

I support the way qualification is structured however. There is a basic principle that all nations with top tier club sides should be represented that I feel is important if we're going to have a true European Cup. I think a fairer distribution of places would be 8 places for the Pro12. The two largest unions get to enter six sides each and the other four unions have 8 places between them- hardly unfair. But a lot of the comment is just lumping us Irish in with the Welsh, Scottish and Italians. As if the 'Celts' were one group. We're four different nations. I care about their goals to an extent in that if their sides are strong it benefits us but I'm Irish, I care about what the Irish sides have to do to qualify and I'm pointing out that the extra place for the Pro12 doesn't benefit the Irish sides.

[asoreleftshoulder]

Well this is a competition that only the French or Irish will win over the next few years and the Irish will really struggle as the might of the French spending power.The fact that the French have the advantage over the Irish of having no foreign player restrictions and the advantage over the English of having a massively larger salary cap means that all the noises made by the power brokers about making it a fair tournament were just wind.

rubbish.

massive changes to the seeding (nothing to do with HC performance which favoured those teams guaranteed HCV entry). massive changes to qualification. Rabo teams will be relatively disadvantaged compared to this year - less money relatively, less qualification spots relatively, more relevance of domestic league competition relatively (unfort no relegation yet).

Your saying only the french or irish will win over the next few years is ridiculous. Typical one-eyed, retrograde rubbish. The only thing you can say is that the new competition's arrangements are more favourable to the French and English clubs compared to the Rabo clubs than the previous arrangement. Anything else is utter speculation and fan bias.

Changes to the seeding won't make the English teams any better.They could only scrape a team into the semis this year by playing against 14 men for 75 minutes.

The English teams aren't nearly good enough and the salary cap ensures that they can't improve enough to bridge the gap.The issue the English clubs have is without increasing the cap they will continue to be uncompetitive but if they increase it then the extra money they have got will be lost in an arms race as wage bills will increase and then they're back to most clubs losing large sums of money each year.

[broadlandboy]

Notch that is part of the problem, some see it as a Union comp while others see it as a Club comp.

[Notch]

Notch that is part of the problem, some see it as a Union comp while others see it as a Club comp.

I've said it many times. It's a hybrid competition between sides who work within different systems. You can't treat both sides by the same set of rules, that doesn't make any sense. The negotiating tactic of trying to bully the unions into structuring our league like it was a one nation club tournament and trying to force reduced qualifying places on us has created a sense of resentment towards the English clubs, fairly or unfairly. There's a lot of bad blood thats passed under the bridge. I'm more happy that we'll have European Cup that anything else though. My overriding emotion is relief we have the competition firmed up.

But we have the English now crowing about how things are 'fairer' when they and the French have six guaranteed places and everyone else only has one guaranteed place. I appreciate that some changes were necessary and that England and France deserve a higher representation due to the fact they have more teams and a larger player base, but still- it's just over a third of the places between four of the six major nations in European rugby. Just goes to show that 'fair' means different things to different people.

[broadlandboy]

If you wanted it based on Unions the only "fair" ,IMHO,way would be to have half of your top tier team in the top comp. This could limit Ireland to 2 teams, would you be happy with that?

[Notch]

I think we had a fair balance before now to be honest. I thought the old format was fair. Ireland and Wales had half the teams England and France did, Scotland and Italy a third of the teams.

I would not have seen anything wrong with the format as it was, I understand that the English and French did and I appreciate their reasons but I think the whole qualifying aspect of this debate has been about club sides trying to bully everyone else into changing their system to be more like them. The financial aspect and the broadcasting aspect are different.

[geoff998rugby]

Of course qualification was never the real issue that was all done and dusted months ago.

The hold up was agreeing Governance ad the fact 2 TV deals had been signed by 2 differing bodies

[LeinsterFan4life]

To add salt to the wound, the playoff game is only being televised on BT.

[The Saint]

I think we had a fair balance before now to be honest. I thought the old format was fair. Ireland and Wales had half the teams England and France did, Scotland and Italy a third of the teams.

I know, but try explaining that to the idiotic Franglo's.

[Notch]

I think we had a fair balance before now to be honest. I thought the old format was fair. Ireland and Wales had half the teams England and France did, Scotland and Italy a third of the teams.

I know, but try explaining that to the idiotic Franglo's.

Using words like 'idiotic' is the kind of thing that has made this long running debate more emotionally charged and fractious than it needs to be. I understand their position.

[Notch]

As this thread has hit twenty pages, I'm going to lock it and start a new topic for the discussion to continue on

https://www.606v2.com/t53170-the-new-european-cup-thread-part-2

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