Mayweather/Maidana Revisited - Carried Away A Bit...

This ladies and gentleman, is a bloody thorough breakdown. Let's have a coffee and hit the walls of tedium that very few aside from possibly Chris may be able to cope with!

For many years Floyd has looked seemingly invincible, barely anyone getting close to cracking through the defence, and the few times we have seen anyone really get through we've seen him respond in emphatic fashion. Mosley cracks him, Floyd punishes him for 10 rounds afterwards, Cotto has good skirmished successes but Floyd rocks him in the twelth and seriously shows his class late on. The one time his 0 was genuinely in doubt was against Castillo many years ago and it was 100% rectified in the rematch if there was any doubts.

Baring all of this in mind, when Floyd doesn't sparkle, when Floyd doesn't put his stamp of pure authority on something it's quite easy for us all to get carried away a little, perhaps in scoring the fight, perhaps in the views afterwards and sometimes it takes a little bit of time for the dust to settle to see things with a more clear head and a bit more sense. I'm most certainly guilty of this, the first time watching the Mayweather/Maidana fight, I thought that  it was extremely close, with Mayweather pinching it by a couple of rounds, and I felt like Floyd spent so much time on the ropes being hit by cuffing shots. That actually wasn't really the case after I rewatched the fight. After rewatching it I realised a lot more punches than I first thought were being caught on the arms by Floyd, this generally has been the casein Floyds whole career, especially in the N'Dou, Castillo, Hatton and De La Hoya fights but I did think initially watching it, Maidana was having more success than those guys, and whilst he was marginally, not by an AWFUL amount.

I've broken down my scorecard slightly differently, not just giving the person I scored it to, but as to whether it was a debatable round or not, there most certainly were LOTS of debatable rounds.

1.) Maidana - Clear
2.) Floyd - Close
3.) Floyd - Close
4.) Maidana Close
5.) Maidana - Clear
6.) Floyd - VERY close
7.) Floyd - Clear
8.) Floyd - Close
9.) Floyd - Clear
10.) Floyd - Clear
11.) Floyd - Close
12.) Floyd - Close

Final score 117/111 to Floyd. (When I first watched I thought it was 115/113 to Floyd round 2 and 3 being the rounds that changed for me, Floyd had far more success than I actually realised initially, getting a bit carried away the first time watching Maidana push him into the ropes and throw huge punches. Floyd landed lots of clean shots that were bang on the button and most of Maidana's shots simply grazing, though there was a couple of very good shots that got in for Maidana, mainly to the body and one particular sequence that was quality body work mixing it up and landing a good right hook to the head)

So... I've put 7 rounds as close rounds, rounds which you can argue for either person, this alters the scoring of a fight by a ridiculous margin. Which is why you get John Bloody Wayne coming out with a scorecard showing 116/113 to Maidana, and you get an official card showing a draw, and then you get another one showing 117/111 to Floyd. But like I have shown I think you have to be a very kind man to give all of those close rounds to Maidana as it just felt as though Floyd was stealing them slightly with the cleaner work, but if you did... Your views are your views.

Being as kind to Floyd as possible and giving him every single close round you end up with a score of 118/110. Being as kind to Maidana as possible you end up giving him the fight 117/111 by my calculations. This, essentially is mental, and the reason as to why scorecards most of the time end up being as crazy as they are I believe, not because of fights being fixed just because of fights being perceived in a different way in rounds that are slightly close. You go with one guy a certain amount of times in relatively close rounds and it ends up going completely the other direction.

So, as to assessing Floyd's overall performance...

Well, initially I wasn't overawed, but that is partly due to being overawed by the way he has simply picked apart most of his opponents and you didn't get that sense that he particularly did this time. But when you put it into relative terms, he was outweighed 17lbs on the night. Maidana is coming off the biggest win of his career and is bang on in the middle of his prime, fully determined, confident, has improved immensely as a fighter in the past 2 years since his last loss to Alexander, is an extremely unorthodox fighter and would generally be a handful to plenty, especially those with minimal power at weight. (I believe Floyd's KO percentage is around 20 at Welterweight) Floyd is 37, and to that is one absolutely massive factor. Comparing him with some of the greats, at 37 Sugar Ray Robinson was being beaten by Carmen Basilio, a career Welterweight, with Robinson being a fully fledged Middleweight at this time in his career and holding a large height and reach advantage and Basilio weighing in at what would be classed as a Light Middleweight in this era. Sugar Ray Leonard had retired after being beaten comfortably by Terry Norris. (Would later come back to be taken apart by Camacho) Thomas Hearns was in the seniors tour of boxing, fighting up at Cruiserweight against no hopers. De La Hoya had been retired by Pacquiao 2 years prior. These are just a few examples, very few Welterweights are fighting at there very best at the age of 37, decisively beating opposition, that hold versions of world titles that are in there prime. So in Floyds defence, I would say that in itself was rather impressive, although the actual performance not quite being up to his best.

Next you have to look at Maidana. Maidana has openly admitted, he barely watches boxing, he doesn't even know that much about it, which is pretty surprising. However in the case of facing Floyd, I believe this has actually worked into his advantage quite strangely enough. Floyd gives fighters different looks, constantly changing the way in which he is to be approached making fighters have to think more and more about how to get close to him. One of the things Malignaggi hit on the head when assessing Alvarez's performance against Floyd was the amount of changes he shows in just one particular round keeping you thinking and trying to change yourself in order to land shots, this invariably causes you to make mistakes, these mistakes are then punished for by Mayweather. The thing is this has worked so terrifically against fighters that are sitting there trying to figure you out that against a guy that doesn't understand it, the subtle defensive motions don't work quite as effectively as it doesn't confuse Maidana. At the same time, after rewatching the fight, I myself seriously over egged it as to how much Floyd was being pushed onto the ropes and hit cleanly, after seeing it again I realised it really wasn't anywhere near as bad as I first thought and quite a lot of the time Floyd was landing the better punches against the ropes, and a lot of Maidana's work was often illegal, though obviously he has to rough Floyd up.

How does this compare Floyd with the greats? Well boxings so difficult to judge and it's so subjective. My views are my views and your views are your views, and as wacky as some of them are, as long as there is some form of genuine rational explanation brought in, its all fair. For me lots of the old timers are far over hyped in themselves, some would have you believe that none of the great Welterweights of the past would lose a second of any round to a decent Welterweight around now, or that Floyd would get massacred by any of the greats. That to me just doesn't add up, Floyd's not unbeatable, but he's a damn lot closer than most have been to it.

Just a few thoughts on things, yours?

(Oh yeah and I never sleep!)

I was surprised by the negative backlash on here. Floyd won against a pressure fighter who was 17lbs heavier and 7(?) years younger in fairly typical fashion. Weathered the early aggression, started taking over to a relatively comfortable UD. Not sure what people were expecting or wanted him to do to be honest. Maidana did better than expected, but so what? I dont think there is a case for him winning the fight. I will have to go back and watch it again, but I scored it 115-113 to Floyd (with a lot of close rounds, as you say).

I think its a win that could get better with time, it depends how Maidana's career pans out. He got his ass handed to him by Alexander a couple of years ago, but we will have to wait and see whether he is an improved fighter under Garcia.

Thing is with the Alexander fight, Maidana didn't train for the fight and was going to retire, then he started training with Robert Garcia and everything changed.

joeyjojo618 wrote:I was surprised by the negative backlash on here.

      

Haven't re-watched it but I gave Maidana the first 6 and Floyd the last 6 when I watched it live. Certainly a case for either fighter sneaking a round in the first or second half. No way I can convince myself it was ever 117-111 without re-watching it. I just preferred Maidana's workrate and aggression, though ultimately that was what cost him the last 6 rounds as he tired and Floyd took over.

I had an argument with a friend on facebook who highlighted the fact that Mayweather landed more punches as justification for his win. I pointed out that if you're using overall punches landed as the barometer for the result, then you'd also need to judge rounds on that basis. In that case it would have been 6-6 and a draw. Apparently I'm "just hatin' on Floyd"   

I would change the 3rd and 11th and possibly 12th to Maidana.

Like I said, those were close rounds and could put it another way. If you do that you end up at a draw.

AlexHuckerby wrote:Like I said, those were close rounds and could put it another way. If you do that you end up at a draw.

Yeh it was one of those fights that had so many close rounds that could swing either way that I would class the fight as a draw.

I think in a rematch it would be even closer as Mayweather would be 6 months older and Maidana would be full of confidence after a close 1st fight. I expect there to be no rematch because Mayweather will find a different opponent.

I scored the first six rounds to Maidana, had an even round in there and gave Maidana one of the late rounds. 117-111 for Floyd seems far too wide for me. It was a very close fight.

On that performance, a peak de la Hoya would tear him a new one, nevermind a peak Duran. Maidana's workrate and pressure caused him severe problems in all but a few rounds. Punches to the arms and shoulders still hurt and do damage. Mayweather nicked the fight. I dont think Mayweather has looked seemingly invincible by any stretch, especially as a welterweight or light middleweight. The best of him was down around lightweight or superfeatherweight, where he was lucky not to have picked up a loss.

You're so right as always catchy, i'm learning so much from you, I don't need Boxrec any more, i've got a boxing oracle.

No you are above all that learning stuff arent you. You are a real individual who makes up their own mind arent you i.e il check this guys boxrec page and tell myself that is what making up my own mind is. You would be lost without your boxrec and ring magazine to form your argument which is why you spend most of your life on here regurgitating that crap.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:You're so right as always catchy, i'm learning so much from you, I don't need Boxrec any more, i've got a boxing oracle.

Are you really giving up Boxrec?

Maybe he has finally memorized after a lifetime of trawling.

I have a lot of research to do to get to your level of knowledge Catchy, you know so much im in awe.

If your arsed about that kind of thing then go for it. Your quest to be known as a boxing buff and know it all on an internet forum Im sure will be highly gratifying and productive. My advice would be to tone down the boxrec, start reading some of TRUSSMANS work and try to avoid getting banned so often.

Originally scored it 115-114 to Maidana when watching it live. Watched it back a couple of days ago and scored it 115-114 to Mayweather. Great fight, could have gone either way, I really don't understand any card that could score more than 2/3 points either way.

It does make me wonder if Maidana could have done more damage and slowed Floyd down more if he had been allowed his MX gloves. Rematch will tell.....

Excellent article and breakdown, mate. Naturally disagree on the 117-111 bit, mind you. You've put seven rounds down as being close / debatable and given six of them to Floyd. If you genuinely just thought that Mayweather did indeed nick six of those seven by the skin of his teeth then fair enough, that's how you should score it - but to others it might seem a bit of a coincidence that in six out of seven cases, you've given the benefit of the doubt to the guy expected to win, who is worth a hell of a lot of money to boxing and who was very much the 'champ' in this case, even if it was a unification bout.

Haven't re-watched it yet like you, I'll admit. This might be a bit of a contradiction on my part, but here we go; I had it a draw watching it live, but here's the rub - I still actually agree with you that a reasonable proportion of fans viewing the fight probably mistook Maidana being a lot more competitive than we predicted with Maidana actually being the better man on the night.

In terms of what you're saying about Floyd parrying, rolling with, blocking and smothering a lot more of Maidana's shots than people think, again I agree. But showing a superior defence isn't going to win you the round if you aren't backing it up with at least some effective aggression of your own. Floyd turned it on as the fight wore on, no doubt, and the chasm in quality between him and Marcos was evident then, but I thought he was very slow out of the blocks even by his standards.

A lot of the early rounds saw Maidana pushing him back and clearly outworking him, even if not all that many were getting through - but even if Floyd's showing good defence, I'm not going to give him the round if he's not mounting any reasonable attack of his own. Maidana had him where he wanted him and was throwing about 90 punches per round in the early goings; maybe only 30% of them were getting through to the target properly, but Floyd throwing, say, 30 punches in a round (that's a guestimate of his rounds 1-8 output) isn't enough to get the nod ahead of what Maidana was doing for me, regardless of his defence and his 50-odd percent connect percentage. Sometimes a better boxer can just get outworked as much as anything else and I think it's fair to say that this was the case for the first two thirds of the fight.

I thought Floyd was well on top in the last four rounds as his output picked up and he started initiating more exchanges. Maidana also tired a little down the stretch (understandable) which accentuated Mayweather finding a new gear.

The long and short of it, for me, is this - I think a lot of people have, as you alluded to, got too caught up in Mayweather not looking at his very best and winning with ease and have maybe gone a bit over the top in terms of talking about how Maidana was "robbed" or how this fight proves that Floyd isn't an all-time greats who could hang with the legends in or around his weight classes (that last point is ridiculously short-sighted, in my opinion). But while I honestly couldn't quite make a case for Maidana winning it, I don't think you have to be some blinded Mayweather hater to suggest that this was an even or at least a very, very close fight either.

Talked about this on the podcast last week - a lot of similarities here with the first Jones-Tarver fight back in late 2003. Similarly to Floyd, Roy had just beaten his naturally biggest and heaviest opponent, was considered by a mile the pound for pound number one and was expected to swat Tarver with contempt. In the end, it turned out to be one of Roy's most underwhelming showings and he only just got home on a hard-fought decision which some disagreed with - in fact, the scores were exactly the same as Mayweather-Maidana. Even the flow of the fights had similarities; Floyd and Roy respectively in charge when the fight was in the centre of the ring, but getting outworked and looking a lot less comfortable and in danger when they were forced against the ropes. In both cases, the pound for pounder pulled it out of the fire in the late rounds.

Jones was approaching 35, Floyd is 37.....Who knows, maybe Father Time is just catching up slowly but surely. Has to happen eventually. I'll wait and see how Floyd looks next time out before jumping to that ship, but interesting to see the similarities between the two fights and situations.

Good read that Chris, its quite funny seeing the similarities with Jones v Tarver I (although Jones was dropping a good 25pound in weight).
 
Would Floyd get poleaxed in the rematch, probably not but there is hope he is human like the rest of us.

25lbs? That doesnt sound right. That sounds like....

"You got any excuses tonight Roy?"

catchweight wrote:25lbs? That doesnt sound right. That sounds like....

"You got any excuses tonight Roy?"

 
One of my favourite stare down quotes. Along with 'Who are you looking at!' screamed by Katsidis against Guerrero who proceded to jab him from pilar to post for the next 12 rounds.
 
Being fair to Roy 25 pound is a big weight drop.

It surely wasnt 25lbs was it? Wasnt the whole point of the heavyweight thing meant to be that he was hardly above what he weighed at light heavyweight?

Just maybe Mayweather has thought routine defence, easy nights work, and has been shocked by Maidana,after so many clear cut victorys I think Mayweather is entitled to an off night.Thought Mayweather had done enough to keep his title.

Never been a Mayweather fan but feel the criticism is a tad over the top,every fighter in history has had a bad night at some stage of their career.

I don't even think a rematch will be close it will be Mayweather changing tactics and winning pulling away.

He weighed something like 204lbs against Ruiz so yeah. Would have been 25lbs to take off.

catchweight wrote:It surely wasnt 25lbs was it? Wasnt the whole point of the heavyweight thing meant to be that he was hardly above what he weighed at light heavyweight?

Just had a check Catchy and your were right. Just assumed Roy came in over the 200 pound + weight limit, but he came in at 193. Still an 18 pound drop though   

He weighed 193 against Ruiz, Catchy. Before jumping to Heavy, Jones only usually scaled about 180 on fight night when he held the Light-Heavyweight title, so it was a pretty considerable weight gain. Could only have been as much as 25 lb (to lose afterwards) if Jones partied a bit too hard after beating Ruiz, though!

Would have been interesting to see how Jones would have fared if he'd stayed at Heavy (or Cruiser after they reset the limit at 200 lb) instead of moving back down to Light-Heavy. If, as he and others say, shedding the weight again was the main reason for declining so quickly you'd expect that he might have been able to turn in a couple more decent performances against the right opposition had he remained in the 190s.

I think Jones probably did make a bit of a pig's ear of getting back down to 175, though. He came back down to fight Tarver in November 2003 but didn't actually vacate the WBA Heavyweight title until February 2004 when a) Lewis announced his retirement and that potential fight (Jones says that after seeing Lewis looks to unfit and poor against Vitali he was considering going after him, believe it or not) went up in smoke, and b) the demand for the Tarver rematch just got too much for him to ignore.

Because he prepared for the first Tarver fight with one eye still on going back up to Heavy, apparently he tried to cut weight while at the same time trying not to lose any muscle mass if he could avoid it, rather than just scaling down on all fronts. Said that on fight night against Tarver, he felt "as slow as a Heavyweight, and only punching like a Middleweight."

Anyway, he made his bed, got splattered second time out, and it's been nowt but woe for him ever since!

catchweight wrote:If your arsed about that kind of thing then go for it. Your quest to be known as a boxing buff and know it all on an internet forum Im sure will be highly gratifying and productive. My advice would be to tone down the boxrec, start reading some of TRUSSMANS work and try to avoid getting banned so often.

Everyone on here is more than welcome to learn from my stuff............My liberal philosophy dictates that I try to help my fellow Man as often as possible...

Think If you like Floyd you'll score the close rounds for him............If you don't you'll look for any excuse to give a round to Marcos....

Natural I suppose..........I tried to make a case for Tyson Tucker being close back in the day because I didn't like Mike......Got it to 116-113 Tyson ..........but on casual reflection it was 118-110 and I knew it..

Soldier_Of_Fortune wrote:

catchweight wrote:It surely wasnt 25lbs was it? Wasnt the whole point of the heavyweight thing meant to be that he was hardly above what he weighed at light heavyweight?

Just had a check Catchy and your were right. Just assumed Roy came in over the 200 pound + weight limit, but he came in at 193. Still an 18 pound drop though   

Well would depend what he actually weighed as a light heavyweight when he was in the ring. He was probably in the 180s as light heavy after the weigh in. I just remember the build up to the fight being all about how he was going be to light and use his speed etc. I always had it in my head he wasnt all that more than his usual light heavyweight ring weight. Too much weight would have been counterproductive against a slow coach like Ruiz.

I scored the fight a draw but no second viewing I can see how Mayweather won but not as wide as two of the judges had it.
I think it'll go down similarly to how I saw the Mayweather v De La Hoya fight in that I hadn't,on the first couple of viewings, been able to score it to Floyd. Due to the overwhelming consensus favouring Floyd I scored it to him through watching him rather than the fight itself.
Don't think I've really explained that but basically, on further viewings, it's easier to appreciate the subtlety of his skills than live where maybe the shock of it appearing that Floyd didn't have an answer to Maidana's style, conned people into scoring it for him.

Round 8 was a good round for Maidana.

11 and 12 were extremely close.

Alex, I must admit I'm a little confused by your reasoning. You've given Floyd six of the seven close rounds. Seeing as you concede they are close, would you have a problem with Maidana getting six of the seven close rounds? A swing in the close rounds, has the fight 117-111, for Marcos. That being the case, I don't see the argument. I had it 115-113 Floyd, haven't watched a second time, and I honestly don't think I'm going to. It was an absorbing figure live, but the lack of quality means I can't suffer through it when I know who gets the spoils

Alex, I must admit I'm a little confused by your reasoning. You've given Floyd six of the seven close rounds. Seeing as you concede they are close, would you have a problem with Maidana getting six of the seven close rounds? A swing in the close rounds, has the fight 117-111, for Marcos. That being the case, I don't see the argument. I had it 115-113 Floyd, haven't watched a second time, and I honestly don't think I'm going to. It was an absorbing figure live, but the lack of quality means I can't suffer through it when I know who gets the spoils

I understand what you're saying Kingraf, I just felt that although I can see how those closer rounds can go to Maidana, the rounds for me were Floyds, close but felt confident they were Floyds. Upon first viewing Maidana charging Floyd around the place in the first few really had me stunned and led me to believe that he was in firm control, when in reality he wasn't doing as well as I originally believed.

I tend to side with Chris here mate. Floyd wasn't mounting any serious offence in these rounds, Certainly wasn't mounting a greater offence than Marcos. You're essentially giving Floyd the round because he managed to not get hit (without hitting back). Which is fair enough, but eventually you're judging aesthetics, not work done, and Maidana (and, with the possible exception of Martinez or Pac in full flow, nobody) looks better than Floyd in the squared circle.

Nah but Floyd was genuinely landing clean hard shots in between, if you look at punch stats also they're relatively even in what they supposedly landed, just for me Floyds were far more cleaner.

Don't understand how people can have maidana winning! It was simalar to the cotto fight close but there was a clear winner! Compubox might've been close but how many of maidanas was the back of the head or clean! I had Floyd by 2 and that was me being generous to maidana

I think you're spot on with your reasoning Alex, Mayweather was a comfortable winner in my view but the perceived closeness of the fight comes down to Maidana doing better than expected. Throughout the fight he was setting the pace marauding forward but he wasn't landing the clean effective blows, they were coming from Mayweather.

It's the same as the first fight between Pacquiao and Bradley, a clear winner and one of the most ridiculous robberies you'll see but a small minority were giving Bradley more credit than he deserved for doing better than expected.

116-112 is how I had it but wouldn't grumble with it being a point either side.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19MgtqszNJI

This is by far THE BEST WAY to watch the fight. Its not what I remember at all. Complete shut out to Mayweather. Far better than I realised. Amazing!

A lot of people scoring it more to floyd on second viewing. Must have been a quiet beating. In 20 years time it will be a floyd shut out.

I had it even after 8, with floyd pulling away from there. Pretty much how I had the Oscar fight. Rides the storm. (Not much of a storm in oscars case), picks them off when the pace drops.

I'd like to have found a way to score it for maidana, but even at the time I knew I was looking for ways to give him rounds, and managed to resist the temptation.

Did not watch the fight live but have watched the full fight since, fully aware of the furore on here. Can’t remember my exact scoring but my instinct was very much that Floyd deserved the nod. I certainly did not agree that Marcos swept the first six rounds. Thought the second was pretty much even and Floyd won the sixth. From that point outside of the 11th which was pretty even thought Floyd had very much the better of things.

For me there is always something of a temptation to score things in someones favour when they are doing better than anticipated, as Maidana almost certainly was, but in the second half of the fight much of his work was spoiled or avoided. Personally am not a fan of this phenomena we seemingly have to endure currently of scoring for endlessly plodding forward irrespective of what you are doing or whether you are actually landing anything on your way in. Marcos for me did too much of the former and not a lot of the latter.

Mayweather had an off night and Maidana fought well. Even Mayweather at his best would have struggled with the onslaught. I watched it again last night. 115-113 for me again. Wouldn't argue with a draw.

Floyds boxing was better and he was more accurate. Problem was, he wasn't active enough and was being pushed around. Maidanas work rate, aggression and lack of respect for Mayweathers power, made this a very competitve and enjoyable bout.

You say that but unless he's landing more cleaner punches it counts for nothing when scoring the fight. Anybody can throw a lot marching forward but it's not enough on its own to win rounds.

I think there is something in the underdog theory rowls. With floyd fights there is the additional factor of people desperately wanting him to lose. Whether it's because they find him an objectionable jerk, or whether they are desperate to give credence to their argument that he's not an all time great.

It seems to effect the odd judge here and there too.

That said it was a competitive  fight with plenty of close rounds... if you follow the Vegas judging principle that the guy coming forward will get the round unless he clearly loses it, then you can make a case for maidana I guess.

Makes you wonder why floyd fights in vegas, he's nearly fallen foul of this a few times now. Maybe that risk is offset by the all those casinos and the otherwise friendly attitude of  Nevada to big name fighters

I dont see that there was much controversy at all. It was a close fight and the consensus I have encountered was that Mayweather probably did enough over the second half of the fight to win a close decision. Unless you are arguing Maidana was robbed or Mayweather won easily then its a pretty uncontroversial medium.

115-112 for me. Can't see a way that Maidana won or drew the fight, missed so much and the cleaner/better work was done by Mayweather.

Better fight than expected which, as others have pointed out, may have meant people not being overly objective due to it being a bit more competitive than Floyd winning 118-110 as usual.

Has anyone watched the link I posted, and changed their opinion as a result. The fightside camera and zero commentary makes you feel like you you're their. Hope more unique videos of that quality are posted in future.

I bet Arum scored it for Maidana.