Scotland v Argentina, 8 November

         
Scotland v Argentina
8 November 2014
KO: 17:30 GMT
BT Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh

Referee: Wayne Barnes (RFU)
Touch judges : George Clancy (IRFU) & Marius Mitrea (FIR)
TV : Eric Gauzins (FFR)

BBC Two/Various others

A. Teams:

Scotland

15 Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors); 24 caps
14 Sean Maitland (Glasgow Warriors); 13 caps
13 Mark Bennett (Glasgow Warriors); uncapped
12 Alex Dunbar (Glasgow Warriors); 8 caps
11 Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors); 10 caps
10 Finn Russell (Glasgow Warriors); 2 caps
9 Greig Laidlaw CAPTAIN (Gloucester); 31 caps

1 Alasdair Dickinson (Edinburgh Rugby); 36 caps
2 Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby); 77 caps
3 Euan Murray (Glasgow Warriors); 60 caps
4 Richie Gray (Castres); 39 caps
5 Jonny Gray (Glasgow Warriors); 5 caps
6 Rob Harley (Glasgow Warriors); 7 caps
7 Blair Cowan (London Irish); 3 caps
8 Adam Ashe (Glasgow Warriors); 1 cap

16 Scott Lawson (Gloucester); 45 caps
17 Gordon Reid (Glasgow Warriors); 3 caps
18 Geoff Cross (London Irish); 32 caps
19 Tim Swinson (Glasgow Warriors); 9 caps
20 Alasdair Strokosch (Perpignan); 40 caps
21 Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors); 12 caps
22 Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors); 15 caps
23 Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors); 88 caps

Argentina

15 Joaquin Tuculet
14 Juan Imhoff
13 Marcelo Bosch
12 Juan Martín Hernandez
11 Manuel Montero
10 Nicolas Sanchez
9 Martin Landajo

1 Marcos Ayerza
2 Agustin Creevy (capt)
3 Ramiro Herrera
4 Tomas Lavanini
5 Juan Cruz Guillemai
6 Rodrigo Baez
7 Javier Ortega Desio
8 Leonardo Senatore

16 Matias Cortese
17 Lucas Noguera Paz
18 Nahuel Tetaz Chaparro
19 Lucas Ponce
20 Facundo Isa
21 Tomas Cubelli
22 Santiago Gonzalez Iglesias
23 Horacio Agulla

B. Form - head to head (last 5 matches):

21 June 2014
Estadio Mario Alberto Kempes, Córdoba
19 – 21 to Scotland
2014 Summer Test

25 September 2011
Wellington Regional Stadium, Wellington
13 – 12 to Argentina
2011 Rugby World Cup

19 June 2010
Estadio José María Minella, Mar del Plata
9 – 13 to Scotland
2010 Scottish tour of Argentina

12 June 2010
Estadio José Fierro, Tucumán
16 – 24 to Scotland
2010 Scottish tour of Argentina

28 November 2009
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
6 – 9 to Argentina
2009 Autumn International

C. Form:

Scotland

28 June 2014
South Africa 55–6  Scotland

20 June 2014
Argentina 19–21  Scotland

14 June 2014
Canada 17–19 Scotland

7 June 2014
United States 6–24 Scotland

Argentina

Oct 4, 2014
Rugby Championship / Puma Trophy
Argentina 21 - 17 Australia

Sep 27, 2014
Rugby Championship
Argentina 13 - 34 New Zealand

Sep 13, 2014
Rugby Championship / Puma Trophy
Australia 32 - 25 Argentina

Sep 6, 2014
Rugby Championship
New Zealand 28 - 9 Argentina

Some pretty faces you have there.

Wayne Barnes

Biltong wrote:Some pretty faces you have there.

Thanks very much Bilt, you big flirt.

Oh, wait. You mean the ladies on the thread?
Bérénice Bejo (born in Buenos Aires) and Karen Gillan (born in Inverness) are this week's team representatives.

George Carlin wrote:

Biltong wrote:Some pretty faces you have there.

Thanks very much Bilt, you big flirt.

Oh, wait. You mean the ladies on the thread?
Bérénice Bejo (born in Buenos Aires) and Karen Gillan (born in Inverness) are this week's team representatives.

That's the sexiest redhead I've seen since I looked in the mirror this morning!

Btw, Taylor and Hamilton played for saracens this weekend - makes you doubt they'll feature in the XV.

That surely means we're going to see Dunbar & Bennett start?

Can we read much into that, given the SRU have to release players playing in the AP and French leagues?

RDW_Scotland wrote:Wayne Barnes

I think Barnes is a damn fine ref. Problem is he is a damn good scrum ref. Thats bad for us since we'll no doubt be on the wrong side of a gubbing up front.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Wayne Barnes

I think Barnes is a damn fine ref. Problem is he is a damn good scrum ref. Thats bad for us since we'll no doubt be on the wrong side of a gubbing up front.

I am hoping to hell Ayerza comes down with a 24 hour virus at the appropriate moment.

George Carlin wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Wayne Barnes

I think Barnes is a damn fine ref. Problem is he is a damn good scrum ref. Thats bad for us since we'll no doubt be on the wrong side of a gubbing up front.

I am hoping to hell Ayerza comes down with a 24 hour virus at the appropriate moment.

http://www.seoil.co.uk/ <---- Visit this website and ask for an immediate delivery to clutch onto.

I think upcoming test players are usually rested in LV cup games. But I also think Hamilton and Taylor have not had a lot of game time this season so maybe getting a run out helps their chances. Cross also got some time off the bench for Irish, which is useful.

I'm sure Taylor will be involved, even if he's the utility backs sub. He played quite well yesterday, certainly works hard.

Ryan Grant has been called into the squad to replace the injured Dell.

Too soon for ABs and Argentina I think, but can see him getting gametime against Tonga

George Carlin wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Wayne Barnes

I think Barnes is a damn fine ref. Problem is he is a damn good scrum ref. Thats bad for us since we'll no doubt be on the wrong side of a gubbing up front.

I am hoping to hell Ayerza comes down with a 24 hour virus at the appropriate moment.

Yeah, he is a bit of a scrummager that bloke

RDW_Scotland wrote:Ryan Grant has been called into the squad to replace the injured Dell.

Too soon for ABs and Argentina I think, but can see him getting gametime against Tonga

Probably too soon for Pumas match but I'd be happy to see him start the ABs match then get replaced by Reid once he runs out of gas.

Really hope Dunbar is fit.

VC will be naming the caprain for the Argentina game today.

My money's on Laidlaw, but I really don't like your captain not staying on for the full 80.

Harely? He doesn't talk much!

I don't rate Laidlaw as a captain. I'm not entirely convinced about him as a SH.

And with that ringing endorsement, Laidlaw's been announced as captain!

Probably a fair choice - no one else truly stands out instead.


Denton called up to the squad too.

Touch disappointed as I wanted someone from the younger generation but not the end of the world.  Got experience in the role, form has been good for Gloucester and a scrum-half is always close to the action.

Agree RDW though, always preferred a captain who stays on for the full 80 minutes and scrum-halves almost always get replaced.

Can't say I'm surprised. I just hope Laidlaw has confidence in his 10 to give him the ball and replicate the way he has been playing for Glaws.

If he retreats back into his box kicking shell it's a bad choice. If he comes out and plays as he has been, it's the most sensible choice.

All the talk from VC has been about playing a high tempo game, so hopefully the endless box kicks are a thing of the past

A bit disappointed with Laidlaw being made captain. Bit of a safe and easy pick by Cotter, thought he would have been a bit more bold in selecting someone new!
I would have gone with Johnny Gray, earned his place in the starting line up and is likely to play a full 80. Very vocal around the pitch and has experience of being a leader despite him being v young.
Laidlaw I wouldn't say should be starting scrum half. I think Cusiter is the better and more in form 9 and also the better leader.
Hope not to see Laidlaw putting in lots of aimless kicks like he has gotten accustomed to!

Majestic83 wrote:
Laidlaw I wouldn't say should be starting scrum half. I think Cusiter is the better and more in form 9 and also the better leader.

I have watched Glaws and Sale a lot this year (thank you BT sport) and that comment is simply not true.

Laidlaw has been superb for Gloucester. However With a number 8 Like Morgan and a Midfield with Hook and 36 it's hard to look bad.

Laidlaw by merit should be the starting 9 for Scotland.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Majestic83 wrote:
Laidlaw I wouldn't say should be starting scrum half. I think Cusiter is the better and more in form 9 and also the better leader.

I have watched Glaws and Sale a lot this year (thank you BT sport) and that comment is simply not true.

Laidlaw has been superb for Gloucester. However With a number 8 Like Morgan and a Midfield with Hook and 36 it's hard to look bad.

Laidlaw by merit should be the starting 9 for Scotland.

I would disagree, I've seen both Sale and Gloucester play as well this season and over the season Cusiter has been the far more consistent 9. Laidlaw has had a few good games of late but overall Cusiter has been the more impressive for me. Sharper passing, better box kick and his defence has been very good tracking back and saving a couple of scores. He has also been a threat in attack using his snipe to good effect and scoring a couple of good tries.
Laidlaw's passing has improved in recent games but his box kicking has still been pretty aimless and still doesn't offer anything in attack due to his lack of speed. I would go Cusiter over Laidlaw any day!

Maybe Cusiter is still struggling with that calf strain that kept him out of training at the weekend?

Agreed though, I'd have preferred Cusiter / Pythagoras to start with Laidlaw coming on to close out the game.

Yeah Possibly it has come down to who has trained more this week between the 2. Pyrgos is unlucky to miss out on a place.
Quite a lot of competition for the 9 jersey at the moment which is good to see. For me the inform 9 has been Scott Steele who doesn't even make the squad.

Hello again all. I have a little free time at the moment, so I felt compelled to join the debate after a few years off the boards.
I think VC may be going for the fittest option here, given the doubt over CC. It's a tough call on HP, as he has been playing very well for Glasgow, but he can be a very good, momentum bringing scrum half to bring impact from the bench if required.
I prefer CC as my first choice, but maybe the plan will be to use him against the AB's once he has regained full fitness.
Given that all three scrum halves are playing well at the moment, I don' think that this is the key area for concern.
For me me the crucial areas are continuity of play, retaining possession (and actually doing something productive with it), getting the balance right in the rows and pairings of the squad and most importantly hooker selection.
With these thoughts in mind, I would like to see the following selection:
Reid, Lawson, Murray.
Gary, Gray.
Harley, Cowan, Ashe.
Laidlaw, russell.
Mainland, Bennett, Dunbar, Seymour.
Hogg.
Dickinson, Ford, Cross, Swinson, Strokosch, Beattie, Pyrgos, Taylor.

Anglobraveheart wrote:
I prefer CC as my first choice, but maybe the plan will be to use him against the AB's once he has regained full fitness.

I think we have to assume that, barring injury, the captain will be starting every game - therefore Cusiter and Pyrgos will only see action from the bench.

VC is quoted as saying that the appointment is 'for this game'. He hasn't quoted clearly that it's for the AI series, so there's no firm commitment of permanence there. Laid law (or Cusiter) are best placed from experience and ability to captain the team, but I would also hope that JG is given the job of leading the forwards and calling the shots up front. This will give balance and shared responsibility between the nominated leaders. Could work well that way.

I did not know that. My apologies Anglo.

None-the-less being this close to the World Cup we really need a captain to stick to. I know he sees that as Gilchrist but he's far from a guaranteed starter on form (would be the Grays for me). But hey, what can we do? We're not overbrimming with leaders sadly.

I think Gilchrist and Gray jnr would be an excellent partnership at lock.

Gilchrist is certainly I think and always thought one of the most underrated players in Scotland.

No woes. You're right about the clear leaders though. I had hoped a few years ago that Al Strokosch would be the leader, but then he got injured and didn't regain the lethal form he'd had, and we then had an influx of new stars, Harley etc.
We're in a much better place wrt depth of squad now, but a clear leader is the one thing we miss. JG is the man for the future, but I think he'd be better eased into the role by giving him the leadership of the forwards first as he also need to grow into the international playing role. Which he's more than capable of doing.
The 'senior' options for captaincy are really Ford, Murray, Lawson, Beattie and the two scrum halves already mentioned. I think that the pragmatic option is to school JG for now ready for him taking the reins for the WC, and in the mean time keep him as forward leader, and use whichever scrum half is on the pitch to lead the team, make decisions and liaise with the ref.
Laidlaw, Cusiter and Pyrgos are all experienced enough and capable of doing that. Makes sense, to adopt a flexible approach until JG is ready for the whole job, and he has had the chance to develop into the role over the next twelve months.

We need to work with the best combos that we have available now though, and Gilchrist isn't there.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I think Gilchrist and Gray jnr would be an excellent partnership at lock.

Gilchrist is certainly I think and always thought one of the most underrated players in Scotland.

I'm going to run for my life now and say that I actually think the opposite and conversely I don't yet see what Gilchrist has done to warrant the amazing opportunities he has received from both Papper and Cotter. I simply don't see him as being at the same standard as Gray Jnr. That's not to say that he shouldn't partner him, of course.

Maybe I just haven't watched GC enough. I am open to having my mind changed. This is not a Glasgow-Edinburgh thing at all. I want him to be amazing, I just haven't seen it yet.

George Carlin wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I think Gilchrist and Gray jnr would be an excellent partnership at lock.

Gilchrist is certainly I think and always thought one of the most underrated players in Scotland.

I'm going to run for my life now and say that I actually think the opposite and conversely I don't yet see what Gilchrist has done to warrant the amazing opportunities he has received from both Papper and Cotter. I simply don't see him as being at the same standard as Gray Jnr. That's not to say that he shouldn't partner him, of course.

Maybe I just haven't watched GC enough. I am open to having my mind changed. This is not a Glasgow-Edinburgh thing at all. I want him to be amazing, I just haven't seen it yet.

He's a different kind of lock to Gray jr

Gray jr is like Courtney Lawes and Grant Gilchrist is more like Joe Launchbury. Different moulds of Lock. Having both would be a superb combination.

What I mean by that is Gray hammers rucks, gets about the park and puts his hits in. Gilchrist gets about the place, is good at the breakdown and runs a good lineout.

He's Defo not scorched the heather for me either. I don't see what all the fuss is about regarding him, as I would have the Grays, Swinson and probably Ryder in front of him.
He just seems like a big lump of a fella, not much more than that. But I know very little of the dark of of a second row forward tbh.

I'm a big Gilrchrist fan, and definitely think he deserves a place in the 23. Saying that, I don't think he's better individually than either Gray brother, but it's all about balance. He runs a very good lineout now too - Edinburgh's went from shambolic to very good when he returned for injury.

I've watched him a fair bit and he seems to be a good lineout forward which, considering we always have Ross Ford throwing, is no bad thing. Still, I don't think he offers as much in the loose or on the ground as the Gray brothers or Hamilton respectively. If, and I have a sneaky suspicion he may be able to, Cotter tempts Hines out of retirement then he'd become my 2nd/3rd choice and potential captain for the WC.

Has anyone noticed how the BBC have managed to deal out some snide journalism again? The initial picture of Greg Laidlaw announced as captain makes him look like an 8yo holding a full size 5 ball!

Anglobraveheart wrote:Has anyone noticed how the BBC have managed to deal out some snide journalism again? The initial picture of Greg Laidlaw announced as captain makes him look like an 8yo holding a full size 5 ball!

Seems to be that the media on a whole that are obsessed with trying to make Laidlaw look tiny!

Also speaking of the BBC, after the news BBC Scotland ran an advert for our games in the AI's but half the footage was of our rugby league team...

GLove39 wrote:

Anglobraveheart wrote:Has anyone noticed how the BBC have managed to deal out some snide journalism again? The initial picture of Greg Laidlaw announced as captain makes him look like an 8yo holding a full size 5 ball!

Seems to be that the media on a whole that are obsessed with trying to make Laidlaw look tiny!

Also speaking of the BBC, after the news BBC Scotland ran an advert for our games in the AI's but half the footage was of our rugby league team...

Depressing, but predictable. I have stopped complaining about the BBC coverage of Scottish rugby being sh!te.

It's like complaining that 101 Dalmations has got a lot of dogs in it.

I see that Duncan Hodge will be the new attack coach.

He was never the most attack orientated fly half, but he's replacing Scott Johnson - so he gets my ringing endorsement!

I think any steps, quick or slow to move SJ out of the way are good steps. I would have thought that DH becoming attack coach would have been at VC's behest, and if so, must be a good thing. He needs to be allowed to do stuff and make the changes required to tweak and amend the structure that he's inherited.
They are all little steps (which is presumably what our captain takes?? ) and I'm a great believer in making subtle adjustments to things where they need to be improved. It's like eating an elephant, you're never gonna do it in one bite.
Being positive about it, we now have a talented squad, with a bit of depth (hooker excepted) we have a new regime, new ideas, a very positive and successful domestic team as the core for the squad, and a diversity of talent that plays in other leagues.
VC also appears to have that very pragmatic (dour??) single mindedness that gives the impression that he doesn't give a monkeys about sentiment, and just wants to achieve success his way with the resources available. Clinical, but could be the right way to at last harness the talent we have to best effect.

VC is the polar opposite of SJ so far in terms of how he's come across in the media. There's no colourful language, no hyperbole, no random metaphors - he just says what needs to be said.

I like the talk of re-gaining the 'Scottish way' of playing, and VC has certainly done his research and has even consulted Telfer, McGeechan and Irvine on the matter. Most importantly though, he's asked the players what they see as the 'Scottish way'.

That way seems to be more attack orientated - which I like - but am a bit concerned how open we're being about what our planned tactics are. I know it is not exactly rocket science what they are saying, but it gives the Argies a heads up of what we're planning on doing against them.

RDW_Scotland wrote:VC is the polar opposite of SJ so far in terms of how he's come across in the media.  There's no colourful language, no hyperbole, no random metaphors - he just says what needs to be said.

I like the talk of re-gaining the 'Scottish way' of playing, and VC has certainly done his research and has even consulted Telfer, McGeechan and Irvine on the matter.  Most importantly though, he's asked the players what they see as the 'Scottish way'.

That way seems to be more attack orientated - which I like - but am a bit concerned how open we're being about what our planned tactics are. I know it is not exactly rocket science what they are saying, but it gives the Argies a heads up of what we're planning on doing against them.

Well, they've stated they're going to play a more open running game and use the pace of the back three but it's hardly giving the Argies details of the planned backline moves.

I think it's good that they're being open about the kind of rugby they want to play. All teams know the old dour crap style Scotland played which is easy to defend against. This would allow teams to concentrate on their own attack rather than defence which usually meant us shipping tries whilst scoring none.

My fear is that we're going to see plenty of dropped ball!

As I said, it's not exactly rocket science what they've been saying, but in the back of my mind I've been thinking about the Toulon-Glasgow game last year - Glasgow expected them to play typical 10 man Jonny Wilkinson rugby, but actually came out and threw the ball about and ran riot, and Glasgow weren't expecting it at all.

If we had said nothing all week, or even just made some comments about needing to stand toe to toe with the Argie forwards, be strong in the set piece  and mauls, play in the right areas of the field etc. then the Argies would be set up for a forwards battle.

By saying we are going to be more attack orientated and even having said we are going to move the big Argie pack around the park and wear them down, you can sure as hell bet they will be focussing all week on slowing our ball down and getting the game back into the forwards.

I'm probably reading too much into this, but just would have liked a bit more subtlety in the tactical battle!

If they plan on slowing the ball down, then it's up to our forwards to smash them back onto their collective arses and support our runners in broken play.

Don't get me wrong, this will be tough whatever the gameplan, but if Scotland want to be challenging for 6N and latter stages of the WC, these are the games they need to be winning without fear.

Let's not forget that VC will be no mug, and there will be all sorts of vague suggestion and spin being banded about.
We don't want an arm wrestle, and we don't want to play sevens either. So long as we keep control and play the game in the way we want in the areas that we want, then we'll be fine.
I think Glasgow learned a lot from the Toulon game, and generally over last season they matured and are a much more rounded team. Again, I hope that these qualities will be carried through the the national team.
As for giving away the game plan, I think we need to have options on this, depending on the match situation. Yes, they can play a more expansive game, but, they need to be controlled and clinical in the set piece too, which again, Glasgow have demonstrated this season when required.
I wouldn't read too much into what talk is being released to the press, it's just talk, and fairly obvious tbh.