England vs New Zealand 8th November

First topic message reminder :

Thought we might as well have a thread as we'll have the team announcements soon.

I see Myler is out of contention with a mild hamstring strain. Not serious enough to warrant a call-up for Cipriani or Burns, though. Attwood's wife is due to give birth any day, so that clouds the picture a little on his availability.

Hansen is apparently considering Carter and SBW for Twickenham, injury permitting.

England team to play New Zealand

M Brown (Harlequins); S Rokoduguni (Bath), B Barritt (Saracens), K Eastmond (Bath), J May (Gloucester) ; O Farrell (Saracens) , D Care (Harlequins); J Marler (Harlequins), D Hartley (Northampton), D Wilson (Bath), D Attwood (Bath), C Lawes (Northampton), T Wood (Northampton), C Robshaw (Harlequins, capt), B Vunipola (Saracens).

Replacements: R Webber (Bath), M Mullan (Wasps), K Brookes (Newcastle), G Kruis (Saracens), B Morgan (Gloucester), B Youngs (Leicester), G Ford (Bath), A Watson (Bath).

All Blacks (test caps in brackets)

15. Israel Dagg (45)
14. Ben Smith (35)
13. Conrad Smith (83)
12. Sonny Bill Williams (20)
11. Julian Savea (30)
10. Aaron Cruden (36)
9. Aaron Smith (36)
8. Kieran Read (70)
7. Richie McCaw (c) (134)
6. Jerome Kaino (54)
5. Sam Whitelock (60)
4. Brodie Retallick 34)
3. Owen Franks (65)
2. Dane Coles (24)
1. Wyatt Crockett (33)

Reserves:

16. Keven Mealamu (121)
17. Ben Franks (39)
18. Charlie Faumuina (24)
19. Patrick Tuipulotu (5)
20. Liam Messam (37)
21. TJ Perenara (8)
22. Beauden Barrett (26)
23. Ryan Crotty (10)

Pleased to see Nigel Owens refereeing tomorrow.

Do enjoy it, my fellow Englishmen, while it lasts; Steve Walsh is refereeing England-South Africa!

Duty281 wrote:Pleased to see Nigel Owens refereeing tomorrow.

Do enjoy it, my fellow Englishmen, while it lasts; Steve Walsh is refereeing England-South Africa!

I am happier with Walsh doing the SA game than I am with Owen's taking the NZ one.

While Walsh is overly pedantic, and hates us, we know that and just have to be whiter than white.

Owens laissez faire attitude to the laws so long as we get a free flowing game works completely in NZ favour.




Mind you, if you have to moan about the ref - well you just did not play well enough.

At least with Owens you know the way he's going to ref. With Walsh you know that if you're wearing white no matter what you do you are boned. Someone just wants as many infringements as possible to check his hair on the big screen deary...

Hartlepool of course GF! Quins, Seaton is always cold, even in Summer. I've just moved away from Seaton but remember when it used to be quite the tourist destination

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Hartlepool of course GF! Quins, Seaton is always cold, even in Summer. I've just moved away from Seaton but remember when it used to be quite the tourist destination

If yopu lived in billingham it was

LondonTiger wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Pleased to see Nigel Owens refereeing tomorrow.

Do enjoy it, my fellow Englishmen, while it lasts; Steve Walsh is refereeing England-South Africa!

I am happier with Walsh doing the SA game than I am with Owen's taking the NZ one.

While Walsh is overly pedantic, and hates us, we know that and just have to be whiter than white.

Owens laissez faire attitude to the laws so long as we get a free flowing game works completely in NZ favour.




Mind you, if you have to moan about the ref - well you just did not play well enough.

fortunately, we will have home broadcasters showing unsollicited clips that Owens missed on the big screen where they would go in England's favour, and there will be lots of noise to scream for forward passes and offsides which, given the noew forward pass rules, there should be tons of from NZ (forward passes i mean, they will do their usual large amount of offsides anyway).

LondonTiger wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Hartlepool of course GF! Quins, Seaton is always cold, even in Summer. I've just moved away from Seaton but remember when it used to be quite the tourist destination

If yopu lived in billingham it was

It probably still is if you live in Billingham.

GeordieFalcon wrote:West Hartlepool. Seems a age since they were in the top flgiht.

Horsham...supposed to be a good night out.

Horsham's a very quiet night out! 1 very good bar though as long as you've just been paid...

Amazing isn't it, the form english OC this season, JJoseph, is over looked for a flanker.

Care
Cipriani/Ford
Wade
Twelvetrees
Joseph
Watson
Foden

Twelvetrees has been dreadful this season, Eastmond is the only real option at 12 and JJ alongside is too suspect defensively. I'm easy with that midfield given the injuries.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Twelvetrees has been dreadful this season, Eastmond is the only real option at 12 and JJ alongside is too suspect defensively. I'm easy with that midfield given the injuries.

Average not dreadful, he's needed the captaincy like hole in the head. I do appreciate its very harsh on Eastmond but even I err in selecting an alll small backline. Ofcourse I'd prefer;

Care
Cipriani
Wade
Burrell
Tuilagi
Watson
Foden

Even with the heavy rain forcast, I am expecting the AB's by 25+

Twelvetrees has been anything but in form.

Great, 2 wingers with no Int experience. A 10 with an attitude who can't tackle and 2 injured midfielders. Don't get me started on Foden with his terrible kicking game and one option run it back straight!

SL is picking the best players available in a back line to balance attack with defence. He sees these guys in training and what they bring to the set up and I trust his judgement with players like Cips (Who's nowhere near Int rugby imo).

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Twelvetrees has been anything but in form.

Great, 2 wingers with no Int experience. A 10 with an attitude who can't tackle and 2 injured midfielders. Don't get me started on Foden with his terrible kicking game and one option run it back straight!

SL is picking the best players available in a back line to balance attack with defence. He sees these guys in training and what they bring to the set up and I trust his judgement with players like Cips (Who's nowhere near Int rugby imo).

Preferred, if fit and available......

Well we'll have to disagree about the rest of it, 'trust his judgement'......

Harsh on cips Pooly he has turned a corner.

Why do people insist on picking Wade on the left wing in their desired teams ? watch him and he is clearly a right winger s - his step and outside arc off the left foot bringing many of his tries. He seems unable to do the same thing off his right foot.

ebop wrote:Wahey, our first anti-haka rant from a British scribe with an inferiority complex. Evidently, he's the same joker that snooped around the ABs hotel digging for dirt like a dodgy tradesman rifling through undie draws.

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11354283

is that going to be in the telegraph tomorrow?

the UK is drifting away from being super-politically-correct these days. UKIP are on the rise and Scotland wants to go their own way. I wouldnt be surprised in the slightest if by the time of RWC, teams will either completely ignore the haka or counter it with something of their own.

the haka was a wonderful part of the exchange of cultures of amateur rugby since the 1800s. now it is used as a psychological weapon by the ABs and deserves no greater respect than a national anthem. imo.

quinsforever wrote:the haka was a wonderful part of the exchange of cultures of amateur rugby since the 1800s. now it is used as a psychological weapon by the ABs and deserves no greater respect than a national anthem. imo.

Surely it does not deserve any respect? The haka is overused and, as you correctly state, is merely a psychological weapon.

Either way I am sure the utter tedium of it will be drowned out by the home of rugby...as usual.

If the powers that be were not so politically correct, they could play Jerusalem or Land of Hope and Glory over the PA system whilst the haka is ongoing, and have the English players turn their back on the dull dance.

Quins you're fast I deleted the post but you snuck in there. To be honest, people can think what they like about the haka, it doesn't really bother me. It has been overexposed a bit I agree. They toned it down significantly for the recent commonwealth games so that was a relief. For AB rugby, it is what it is. Ban it, wouldn't bother me. Disrespect or challenge it, wouldn't bother me, just adds to the drama. But it is funny that it only gets mentioned when we travel to England. What's that about?

quins - that article was in the DT online yesterday. I didn't think it would be long before a 606er picked up on it.

ebop - well if NZ will vacate their meeting room and leave the bloody doors wide open what do you expect a journo to do? Turn down a free sports news scoop!
Nowhere near as bad as the intrusive press and locals taking pictures of the England squad and selling them to the highest bidder during the last RWC.

I think the haka 'lost it' respect wise after the Cardiff fiasco (2006?) when NZ threw a hissy fit and performed it in the dressing room.....but then released a video of it!! Most people on these islands thought that was being overly precious. And then came the whingeing to the IRB to get the opposition to stand at least ten yards away when the haka is performed and not approach it blah, blah.

NZ rugby say it is a challenge,  but in reality they don't want a challenge afterwards. Therefore they clearly want to take the psychological advantage from it straight into the game. Most of us think this is a bit rich, and it has only really come about in the last ten years.

Pretty experienced team

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11354412

All Blacks (test caps in brackets)

15. Israel Dagg (45)
14. Ben Smith (35)
13. Conrad Smith (83)
12. Sonny Bill Williams (20)
11. Julian Savea (30)
10. Aaron Cruden (36)
9. Aaron Smith (36)
8. Kieran Read (70)
7. Richie McCaw (c) (134)
6. Jerome Kaino (54)
5. Sam Whitelock (60)
4. Brodie Retallick 34)
3. Owen Franks (65)
2. Dane Coles (24)
1. Wyatt Crockett (33)

Reserves:

16. Keven Mealamu (121)
17. Ben Franks (39)
18. Charlie Faumuina (24)
19. Patrick Tuipulotu (5)
20. Liam Messam (37)
21. TJ Perenara (8)
22. Beauden Barrett (26)
23. Ryan Crotty (10)

LondonTiger wrote:Why do people insist on picking Wade on the left wing in their desired teams ? watch him and he is clearly a right winger s - his step and outside arc off the left foot bringing many of his tries. He seems unable to do the same thing off his right foot.

My bad, I intened Wade right. Watson left.

Welly, I don't rate Cipriani as a top fly half in the slightest. His defence is at times beyond a joke and he still goes for the glory pass rather than playing for the team.

I do think he's playing well for Sale but when I watch him closely, I can still see fundamental flaws in his game that would be targeted by better sides.

England team to play New Zealand

M Brown (Harlequins); S Rokoduguni (Bath), B Barritt (Saracens), K Eastmond (Bath), J May (Gloucester) ; O Farrell (Saracens) , D Care (Harlequins); J Marler (Harlequins), D Hartley (Northampton), D Wilson (Bath), D Attwood (Bath), C Lawes (Northampton), T Wood (Northampton), C Robshaw (Harlequins, capt), B Vunipola (Saracens).

Replacements: R Webber (Bath), M Mullan (Wasps), K Brookes (Newcastle), G Kruis (Saracens), B Morgan (Gloucester), B Youngs (Leicester), G Ford (Bath), A Watson (Bath).

Just about as expected, the pack should be OK, but OF needs to find some form or we are in for a long afternoon.

Glad to see Watson given a chance, much better back three cover than Goode.

Quite like the look of the wings, a lot of pace and power in May ( deceptively powerful ).

With Eastmond and Barritt swapping about on the defence I think we look OK in the centres, but again no chance to meld together, can see a lack of cohesion there.

Is Rokoduguni an amateur as he is still in the army? How does he fit in the training with his army career and what happens if he gets deployed. Was Josh Lewsey still serving when he played for England, otherwise your going back to Tim Rodber/Rory Underwood for an active serviceman playing for England.

Have any other countries in the top 8 anyway got any active service personnel playing for them?

Theres a huge amount of pressure on Eastmond to be the creative link.
Farrel is going to be a key player simply for the fact he is not fit or playing at all well....i really hope he's found some form in the couple of weeks with the England squad.

Quite a bit of pressure on May and Roko to create things from the wing aswell.

Pack itself is quite good. Im really looking forward to seeing Attwood playing his full game. And helping Vunipola in the carrying department.

I also wat to see a BIG game from Hartley. He needs to be at his explosive best which he doesnt always show for England.

I'm looking forward to this game (well the whole AI's really) more than any game I have in a long while.

I'm optimistic about our chances, but I'm not entirely sure why. I don't watch much SH rugby, but that NZ back row and the entire back line is pretty damn formidable.

The weather doesn't look good so I doubt it's going to be an expansive game. It might end up being a battle of the packs which I think may help us and also might negate the perceived lack of creativity in midfield somewhat.

Do many other teams play a like-for-like number eight on the subs bench?

I know the idea is that another fresh ball carrier comes on and smashes through holes in a tiring defence, and Morgan certainly can make an impact.

It just feels sometimes that we are limiting our options, since Morgan doesn't play anywhere else and Vunipola is a possible six but largely untried there at Test level.

If Woodshaw remains the preferred pairing, I suppose the man I think might suffer most with this strategy is Haskell, with Croft also left out in the cold. I know both are not in contention (assuming Haskell is not as recovered as he maintains) but, in the future, a different back row option on the bench might give is a chance to address a problem or opportunity on the pitch.

I'm just wondering whether both Morgan and Vunipola are selected together because they offer the most, or because neither can be trusted to go a full 80 minutes.

Rugby fan are you suggesting
Morgan is a specialist 8
Haskell can play the whole back row so covers injuries
Likewise Ewers can cover 8 / 6

But then Kruis can cover 6
Lawes in an emergency (i dont take anything to that one previous performance there)
Barritt is a flanker playing in the centre...

Rugby Fan wrote:Do many other teams play a like-for-like number eight on the subs bench?

I know the idea is that another fresh ball carrier comes on and smashes through holes in a tiring defence, and Morgan certainly can make an impact.

It just feels sometimes that we are limiting our options, since Morgan doesn't play anywhere else and Vunipola is a possible six but largely untried there at Test level.

If Woodshaw remains the preferred pairing, I suppose the man I think might suffer most with this strategy is Haskell, with Croft also left out in the cold. I know both are not in contention (assuming Haskell is not as recovered as he maintains) but, in the future, a different back row option on the bench might give is a chance to address a problem or opportunity on the pitch.

I'm just wondering whether both Morgan and Vunipola are selected together because they offer the most, or because neither can be trusted to go a full 80 minutes.

Rather than a lack of fitness, I think it's got more to do with the amount of ball carrying they're expected to do, which would mean they would inevitably lose their impact at some stage. Likewise, bringing fresh legs on will have a positive impact on the flow of a game. Wood and Robshaw both have good engines so are only going to go off if they're having a mare, which rarely happens, or if they're injured. For as well as Haskell is playing he is not an 8, so it would be a waste of a sub to have a utility involved when it is veyr likely the only sub will be at 8.

The current back row combination is probably the one that will go through to the RWC:
Wood covers 6 & 7
Robshaw covers 7 & 6
Vunipola covers 6 & 8
Morgan is an out-and-out 8, and as HKC points out it means you have a big carrier on the bench for when the game opens up. The big worry remains what happens if Robshaw gets injured, but fortunately his fitness record is very good.

Poorfour wrote:The current back row combination is probably the one that will go through to the RWC:
Wood covers 6 & 7
Robshaw covers 7 & 6
Vunipola covers 6 & 8
Morgan is an out-and-out 8, and as HKC points out it means you have a big carrier on the bench for when the game opens up. The big worry remains what happens if Robshaw gets injured, but fortunately his fitness record is very good.

Aw well now you've just flippin well tempted fate.
ACL rupture first 10 mins v AB's....

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Poorfour wrote:The current back row combination is probably the one that will go through to the RWC:
Wood covers 6 & 7
Robshaw covers 7 & 6
Vunipola covers 6 & 8
Morgan is an out-and-out 8, and as HKC points out it means you have a big carrier on the bench for when the game opens up. The big worry remains what happens if Robshaw gets injured, but fortunately his fitness record is very good.

Aw well now you've just flippin well tempted fate.
ACL rupture first 10 mins v AB's....

If that happens, I will never ever forgive you, GF

What.....never ever?

Rugby Fan wrote:Do many other teams play a like-for-like number eight on the subs bench?

I know the idea is that another fresh ball carrier comes on and smashes through holes in a tiring defence, and Morgan certainly can make an impact.

It just feels sometimes that we are limiting our options, since Morgan doesn't play anywhere else and Vunipola is a possible six but largely untried there at Test level.

If Woodshaw remains the preferred pairing, I suppose the man I think might suffer most with this strategy is Haskell, with Croft also left out in the cold. I know both are not in contention (assuming Haskell is not as recovered as he maintains) but, in the future, a different back row option on the bench might give is a chance to address a problem or opportunity on the pitch.

I'm just wondering whether both Morgan and Vunipola are selected together because they offer the most, or because neither can be trusted to go a full 80 minutes.

+1

Bench for impact and/or change in tactics as required. Vuni to start, Haskell or S Armitage on bench to cover BR and add something different.

As far as I'm concerned anything with 'back' in it seems to confuse Stewie a bit (BR, back 3....backs ). Good job Back has retired, Stewie might be tempted to put him in the back 3.

The gulf in the caps tally as expected is pretty painful reading for an England fan.

1.Marler - 22 caps
2.Hartley - 57
3.Wilson - 37
4.Attwood - 12
5.Lawes - 32
6.Wood - 30
7.Robshaw - 28
8.Vunipola - 10

9.Care - 48
10.Farrell - 25

11.May - 7
12.Eastmond - 4
13.Barritt - 18
14.Rokoduguni - 0
15.Brown - 29

16.Webber - 8
17.Mullan - 5
18.Brookes - 2
19.Kruis - 0
20.Morgan - 23
21.Youngs - 38
22.Ford - 2
23.Watson - 0

Starting XV - England 359, NZ 759
Bench - England 78, NZ 270

Forwards starting - England 228, NZ 474
Forwards bench - England 38, NZ 226

Backs starting - England 131, NZ 285
Backs bench - England 40, NZ 44

The differences in everything but backs on the bench is pretty stark.

Only one Englishman over the 50 mark, and one over 40 must be one of the greenest sides we have ever sent out against top 8 opposition. An average of 15.6 per player over the squad.

It would be interesting to see an age comparison, probably about 23/24 Eng, to around 30 for NZ

I'd be interested to see the difference in caps if England were fielding their front choice team? Arguably Corbesiero Youngs Cole Launchbery Croft Tuilagi would all be in the 15 and most certainly the 23!

Croft a close one, the others all in the 23

Can't wait to see May run himself into a vortex. Farrell's selection proves nepotism is rife in international sport.

Maybe that's the plan. May's lateral running creates a vortex, we trap the ABs and score unimpeded

Torygraph sports writers presumably failed maths at school. Slightly better indication would be to sum up the bookies odds although these are loaded with about 33% margin for error and their profit. Can, but anyone have the odds ?

Sorry wrong thread. I meant the zero NH thread

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
It would be interesting to see an age comparison, probably about 23/24 Eng, to around 30 for NZ

Inteesting indeed.

The Telegraph wrote:
"But the All Blacks are all old warriors, and in decline," you might contest. Not true: only three starters on Saturday is over the age of 30 (Wyatt Crockett, Jerome Kaino and McCaw). Indeed, their average age of their starting XV is 27.5, compared to England's 26.1.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11212725/England-v-New-Zealand-Stuart-Lancasters-side-make-to-look-second-rate-compared-with-Steve-Hansens-All-Blacks.html

goneagain wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
It would be interesting to see an age comparison, probably about 23/24 Eng, to around 30 for NZ

Inteesting indeed.

The Telegraph wrote:
"But the All Blacks are all old warriors, and in decline," you might contest. Not true: only three starters on Saturday is over the age of 30 (Wyatt Crockett, Jerome Kaino and McCaw). Indeed, their average age of their starting XV is 27.5, compared to England's 26.1.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11212725/England-v-New-Zealand-Stuart-Lancasters-side-make-to-look-second-rate-compared-with-Steve-Hansens-All-Blacks.html

They seem to have forgot about Conrad Smith at 33.....

I've not worked it out but I'm a little surprised the average ages are so close.

15. Israel Dagg (45) - 26
14. Ben Smith (35) - 28
13. Conrad Smith (83) - 33
12. Sonny Bill Williams (20) - 29
11. Julian Savea (30) - 24
10. Aaron Cruden (36) - 25
9. Aaron Smith (36) - 25
8. Kieran Read (70) - 29
7. Richie McCaw (c) (134) - 33
6. Jerome Kaino (54) - 31
5. Sam Whitelock (60) - 24
4. Brodie Retallick 34) - 23
3. Owen Franks (65) - 26
2. Dane Coles (24) - 27
1. Wyatt Crockett (33) - 31

27.6.....average, ah well.

1.Marler - 22 caps - 24
2.Hartley - 57 - 28
3.Wilson - 37 - 29
4.Attwood - 12 - 27
5.Lawes - 32 - 25
6.Wood - 30 - 28
7.Robshaw - 28 - 28
8.Vunipola - 10 - 22

9.Care - 48 - 27
10.Farrell - 25 - 23

11.May - 7 - 24
12.Eastmond - 4 - 25
13.Barritt - 18 - 28
14.Rokoduguni - 0 - 27
15.Brown - 29 - 29

26.2......

Quite an old backline really. Only really Tuilagi missing tht would bring the average down.

May needs a big game.

He really has all the attributes to be a top class player. He will be very clear of the criticism of him in recent internationals...sideways running etc and will be keen to make amends.

He's been in very good form this season and he needs to get the balance of his runs right. The odd vortex (running through traffic) run isn't actually bad..so long as he finds the gaps like he does for Glos. But he needs to focus on running straight...he has simply ridiculous pace...and a great step.

Whitlock has 60 caps at 24 year old...

Holy moly...

May has all the attributes but maybe lacks a bit of nous. He's really not looked like scoring so far, he needs a big AI.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:1.Marler - 22 caps - 24
2.Hartley - 57 - 28
3.Wilson - 37 - 29
4.Attwood - 12 - 27
5.Lawes - 32 - 25
6.Wood - 30 - 28
7.Robshaw - 28 - 28
8.Vunipola - 10 - 22

9.Care - 48 - 27
10.Farrell - 25 - 23

11.May - 7 - 24
12.Eastmond - 4 - 25
13.Barritt - 18 - 28
14.Rokoduguni - 0 - 27
15.Brown - 29 - 29

26.2......

Quite an old backline really. Only really Tuilagi missing tht would bring the average down.

our backline feels like it should be younger given the late starts to england careers of Brown, roko, eastmond and barritt.

we should have cleaned house more drastically a few years ago and then some of these players would have twice the number of caps and familiarity with each other in key combinations across the pitch