Ireland v Georgia Sunday 16th

First topic message reminder :

Hi all,

Feel like this post can go up now that the dust is starting to settle on what was a very good win at the weekend.
Plenty of positives to take including the effective defense, the tenuous breakdown work and excellent control from the halfbacks. Some things could still be considered work ons including our attack with ball in hand, lineout and scrum.

Georgia, with all due respect, should be an easy game (echoes of 2007). Tonga beat them 23-6. Georgia failed to score a point in the second half and all of Tonga's tries came in the final 20minutes. Without wanting to sound too simplistic, it would appear as if Georgia are quite unfit albeit very physical while still on their feet. As a developed playing nation we should benefit from a number of things but the main one should be organisation and preparation. I am expecting a 100% return from our lineout, some later success in securing turnovers and our defensive shape to hold firm.

To put it bluntly, I don't believe that Georgia have any right scoring a point against us.............................with all due respect.

Injuries still account for a fair bit of our squad, other than the original cast who were down and out we have possibly lost Payne for this one, Best may be back, Henry should be back if it was just a virus and Darcy should be available also.

Any game day news, predictions, wish-lists etc pop it down below.
Much love,
Pete

Not a bad performance or game. Some players' played well while others were only ok.

Mike Ross' scrummaging remains a problem. He could even struggle next week against Australia. Fingers crossed he'll get up to last years performance level for the 6 nations and world cup. Anyone know when Martin Moore will be back playing?

Notch wrote:Stringer was/is criminally underrated. Brilliant nine.

Yup- great player

Notch wrote:Stringer was/is criminally underrated. Brilliant nine.

I don't think Strings was or is underrated and I don't think there is a Munster supporter who would have a bad word to say about him. But it just goes to show how good Murray was (and is) regard, that both Strings and O'Leary left Munster as soon as Murray came on the scene.

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:Stringer was/is criminally underrated. Brilliant nine.

I don't think Strings was or is underrated and I don't think there is a Munster supporter who would have a bad word to say about him. But it just goes to show how good Murray was (and is) regard, that both Strings and O'Leary left Munster as soon as Murray came on the scene.

There's a lot of people outside Ireland who would have talked him down, but you rarely see a better passer of a rugby call.

Two nice nines are nice though Sin. Especially if their skills differ but complement a side who might want a variety of ways to play.

Munster should have held onto Stringer.

SecretFly wrote:Yep.  That's all it is.  One plays slower and has a better all round and physical game.  The other plays faster with a less robust frame.  But then Stringer was fast too and not so imposing - and I loved him, especially as he angrily slapped his forwards' butts if they didn't play cart horses in the direction he wanted to go

I used to love that. The Munster forwards would say of Strings that they never had to think with him around - just do what he told them to do (and god help them if they didn't do what he told them)

SecretFly wrote:Two nice nines are nice though Sin.  Especially if their skills differ but complement a side who might want a variety of ways to play.

Munster should have held onto Stringer.

Strings knew he wouldn't get to start with Murray around ... and he wanted to be starting.

PS - I wish he had stayed. Munster are going to find it very difficult to get a good scrumhalf to stay with Murray around.

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Yep.  That's all it is.  One plays slower and has a better all round and physical game.  The other plays faster with a less robust frame.  But then Stringer was fast too and not so imposing - and I loved him, especially as he angrily slapped his forwards' butts if they didn't play cart horses in the direction he wanted to go

I used to love that. The Munster forwards would say of Strings that they never had to think with him around - just do what he told them to do (and god help them if they didn't do what he told them)

It was funny but it was also lethally serious.  You just don't come across 9s with such a dominant characteristic of where they want their forwards to be.  He was much more central to Munster and Ireland, especially that viciousness our/Munster's forwards often brought, than he has been given credit for.  He was a hard driver who knew about space and how best to ultilise it both for forwards and backs.

"The honesty was there and the Stringer incident typified it. It was a try effectively as Luger ran through, but Stringer refused to believe it was." Keith Wood on Stringer's famous tap tackle when Ireland scuppered England GS hopes for a third year.

Stringer always had heart and a good pass but he was never a brilliant nine. Murray has the potential to be the best Irish 9 since Colin Patterson but there haven't been too many world class contenders.

I think he was a brilliant nine, because he was a great organiser. He had his physical limitations of course but he knew how to work a game, as Fly said he bossed the forwards and he created lots of time and space for his 10.

Omg, that stomp on the eye socket is appalling!

Big ban I hope, disgraceful.

http://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/63264446/Referees-miss-face-stomping-in-Ireland-test

Yeah, looked bad. But I just HOPE the player didn't intend to stomp there. If he did, it was brutal considering the damage that could have been done.
I can't say that I think the player Did mean to put his foot down there. But we'll see.

It wasn’t a stomp per se. Stomp implies an intentional stamp down on a player.

If you look at the clip – here  - then it shows the Georgian flanker, Viktor Kolelisvhili, on one side of a ruck that’s just been blown up by the ref. There’s a bit of shoving and pushing and the Georgian player goes to step over the ruck to push an Irish player back, minor stuff. He misjudges stepping over and his boot comes down on Dominc Ryan’s face. In close up it looks horrible but the wide shot provides the context. It was an accident. He may get cited, but  the penalty shouldn't be too harsh.

Ok true, just had a quick look originally. Maybe not a deliberate stomp but its pretty damn careless whatever it is. He'll probably get the benefit of doubt given he didnt deliberately aim for the eyeball. The irish guy must have a touch eye socket. Did he get up and whack the guy?

ebop wrote:Ok true, just had a quick look originally. Maybe not a deliberate stomp but its pretty damn careless whatever it is. He'll probably get the benefit of doubt given he didnt deliberately aim for the eyeball. The irish guy must have a touch eye socket. Did he get up and whack the guy?

No, thankfully not. He showed some good restraint.

ebop wrote:Omg, that stomp on the eye socket is appalling!

Big ban I hope, disgraceful.

http://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/63264446/Referees-miss-face-stomping-in-Ireland-test

It may have been an accident. He wasnt looking down at the time.

It looks accidental to me. There's a player that gets up who would have been blocking Ryan's head from the Georgian player's view and he simply goes to step over another prone player. Accidental and should be seen as such IMO. Forget it and move on.

On a more serious note has anyone heard anything about Chris Henry's health?
A career ending condition?
I've only seen discussion on the UAFC about how we'll hear news of it very soon.
I may be getting mixed up due to their nicknames for players.

He had a migraine, I hardly see any reason to immediately assume the worst.

Notch wrote:He had a migraine, I hardly see any reason to immediately assume the worst.

Yeah the IRFU had reported a migraine and weakness.
However, the guy on that other forum who seems to have contacts in the Ulster camp has said that it's worse than migraines and the details will be released in the next few days.

That other guy may or may not be full of $£%^

I hope he is Notch but he has rarely if ever been wrong and does seem to have as much inside knowledge as our own Geoff.

Hmm, two ways to take the second part of that comment I think.

GunsGerms wrote:

ebop wrote:Omg, that stomp on the eye socket is appalling!

Big ban I hope, disgraceful.

http://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/63264446/Referees-miss-face-stomping-in-Ireland-test

It may have been an accident. He wasnt looking down at the time.

Totally accidental. But reckless. Could have had somebodies eye out

I was very relieved that it wasn't picked up upon at the time, actually, because with the trend of over-zealous refereeing we're going through it could have been red which would have totally ruined the game for the spectators and diluted any lessons we could have taken from it. It would have made the match too easy for us, turned it into a training exercise which benefits nobody.

So, if I'm being totally honest, I did breathe a sigh of relief when I realised the ref and his team had missed it. Georgia already had two players binned without a potential red card adding to their pain.

Joe Schmidt has now capped 14 new players in the space of one year. This is around the same on average if not slightly greater than the average as Lancaster, Hanson and PSA have capped per annum.

Schmidt certainly cannot be accused of not trying out new guys:

Jack McGrath vs Samoa 09/11/2013
Dave Kearney vs Samoa 09/11/2013
Martin Moore vs Scotland 02/02/2014
Jordi Murphy vs England 22/02/2014
Robbie Diack vs Argentina 07/06/2014
Kieran Marmion vs Argentina 07/06/2014
Rodney Ah You vs Argentina 07/06/2014
James Cronin vs Argentina 13/06/2014
Noel Reid vs Argentina 13/06/2014
Rob Herring vs Argentina 13/06/2014
Jared Payne vs South Africa 8/11/2014
Dave Foley vs Georgia 16/11/2014
Dominic Ryan vs Georgia 16/11/2014
Robin Copeland vs Georgia 16/11/2014

Notch wrote:Hmm, two ways to take the second part of that comment I think.

Do you think I would ever suggest that Geoff has jumped ship?

Notch wrote:

ebop wrote:Ok true, just had a quick look originally. Maybe not a deliberate stomp but its pretty damn careless whatever it is. He'll probably get the benefit of doubt given he didnt deliberately aim for the eyeball. The irish guy must have a touch eye socket. Did he get up and whack the guy?

No, thankfully not. He showed some good restraint.

On this incident, Reddan approached the referee and noted if he could ask him a serious question but the ref responded 'No'. Even if it is deemed careless or accidental, surely any kind of strike to the face should be TMO'd and if the play is dead and the captain for a side comes forward with 'serious' questions, they should be acknowledged by the ref?

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Notch wrote:

ebop wrote:Ok true, just had a quick look originally. Maybe not a deliberate stomp but its pretty damn careless whatever it is. He'll probably get the benefit of doubt given he didnt deliberately aim for the eyeball. The irish guy must have a touch eye socket. Did he get up and whack the guy?

No, thankfully not. He showed some good restraint.

On this incident, Reddan approached the referee and noted if he could ask him a serious question but the ref responded 'No'.  Even if it is deemed careless or accidental, surely any kind of strike to the face should be TMO'd and if the play is dead and the captain for a side comes forward with 'serious' questions, they should be acknowledged by the ref?

Maybe the ref was acknowledging a previous word in his ear from the sideline suggesting an incident was noted but that it appreared a genuine mis-step?  
It just seems that he knew why he wasn't going to give Reddan the TMO time.  I don't think he was ignoring anything but he did seem to have had a defined attitude to the incident and perhaps didn't want the circus of a crowd trying to influence the outcomes with a series of Boos on repeat viewings.

Well here's the answer to the worries about Chris Henry.

Chris Henry
Chris suffered some weakness on the morning of the South Africa game and a viral illness was suspected, he recovered quickly and the initial diagnosis was of severe migraine.

Further tests however have shown he suffered a temporary blockage of a small blood vessel in his brain. He is at home now and is well but needs further investigation and specialist opinion.

Well that doesnt sound good at all.

Best of luck to Chris. Let's hope everything work out fine for him.

OK - the opposition was no great shakes and some players were on for no more than 15-20 minutes but who advanced their cause in the Georgia game and who went into reverse

Good for Jones, Madigan, Reddan, Kilcoyne, Strauss, Foley, Ryan, Olding, Copeland, O'Donnell
Bad for Darcy (ok he's coming back from injury but he made no impact whatsoever), Cave, Diack, McCarthy

OK and no more than that for Zebo, Gilroy, Ross (we badly need Moore and White back from injury to take some of the pressure off him - Ah You might have looked good in the loose on Sunday but did he have to scrum down even once?).

Thought it was a little bit over the top to give Foley MOTM, but he was very good and controlled the lineout and looks the real deal - unlike McCarthy. If Foley keeps it up then the second rows going to the RWC should be POC, Toner, Foley and Henderson (if fit) - especially as Henderson can cover 6 as well.

Given the limit on the size of the squad, will three LH's be brought to RWC - if yes then Healy, McGrath and Kilcoyne the obvious three, if only two then who misses out? Even though he was good on Sunday, Kilcoyne might be the unlucky one

In the back line, Jones was excellent but the entire three-quarter line was nondescript (Gilroy and Zebo) to poor (Darcy and Cave). Said in a post last week, Trimble and Bowe only wingers to be defo for RWC - still other places to be fought for. Jones now probably in the frame since he can cover wing and FB

Madigan was mostly very good at 10 (and has become a very reliable goalkicker) as was Reddan at 9. Barring total loss of form or injuries looks like Murray, Reddan and Marmion for the 9 slots for RWC and Madigan as number two to Sexton as well as being a very useful utility back - hard to see Keatley or Jackson upsetting that selection - again barring a total loss of form by Madigan. Now if we could also only get that moron Matt O'Connor to start Madigan at 10....

Need to see more of Olding in the months ahead but (admittedly against a Georgia team out on its feet) he looked very good, setting up Jones nicely for a try and running a great line for his own try. Darcy has been a favourite of mine for many years, but he is going to have to improve and put in a good performance against Aus if Payne is still injured and he is picked. Yeah, I know we need experience in certain positions especially as Payne, Olding and Henshaw have only a few caps between them but experience can only go so far to compensate for absence of form. Odds are that Darcy will go to RWC but will he be a starter?

Still a long time to go, and we have the 6N and the pre-RWC friendlies but some players on the fringes have laid down markets, others have a bit of catching up to do and others well......

Wow, that's bad news about Henry, hope to god he gets back to full health

Foley had to call the lineouts though which is a big ask on debut so he did well I think.

Zaverage was average again IMO. He may pay for trying another silly flick and not securing posession during the Georgia game. Gilroy wasnt great either.

I hope Madigan will be 2nd choice OH for Ireland however, he needs to cut out all the pomposity IMO and focus instead on chasing up his own kicks and getting stuck in. I wouldnt be surprised if he started blowing kisses to the camera if he continues in his current projecture.

Kilcoyne was quite good.

I was pleased that the second team was able to go out and execute a game plan reasonably well and get a decent result so job done.

GunsGerms wrote:Foley had to call the lineouts though which is a big ask on debut so he did well I think.

Zebo was average again IMO. He may pay for trying another silly flick and not securing posession during the Georgia game. Gilroy wasnt great either.

I hope Madigan will be 2nd choice OH for Ireland however, he needs to cut out all the pomposity IMO and focus instead on chasing up his own kicks and getting stuck in. I wouldnt be surprised if he started blowing kisses to the camera if he continues in his current projecture.

Kilcoyne was quite good.

I was pleased that the second team was able to go out and execute a game plan reasonably well and get a decent result so job done.

On the chasing the kick thing.... he was the only player to go back and field the ball from the Goergian kick, ran forward to put some of his team mates onside who hadn't bothered to drop back and help him. The kick was meant for said players to chase as it was infield and closer to them. It wasn't a great kick and I think he didn't follow it as he though he would probably have to drop back to field the next Georgian kick.
On getting stuck in... He's an outhalf, he should not have to get involved in rucks and whatnot but he did when required and put a big hit on their no. 8 who tried to bulldoze through his chanel.

I spotted that but then the question is why they werent helping him out? Are they not on the same wave length or just lazy?

By getting stuck in I just meant focus on what he should be doing and not posing for the cameras.

GunsGerms wrote:I spotted that but then the question is why they werent helping him out? Are they not on the same wave length or just lazy?

By getting stuck in I just meant focus on what he should be doing and not posing for the cameras.

The first point is hardly grounds to criticise Madigan and I think you're the first person I've heard from to say he poses for the camera. Is it just when he breaks out Blue Steel when lining up goal kicks or do you have any examples in general play?

Madigan - against the opposition he was against - couldn't have done no more.  
I think he acts the part because he feels the part - no shame in that.  
I wouldn't call him overly-coc-ky but maybe a new version of Irish player who doesn't come from a generation that feel they have to be honestly meek and humble all the time.  Rob Kearney has his own Best Camera angle for the glory-frown of broodom too  A lot of the newer generation know how to do the cinematics.

Submachine wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:I spotted that but then the question is why they werent helping him out? Are they not on the same wave length or just lazy?

By getting stuck in I just meant focus on what he should be doing and not posing for the cameras.

The first point is hardly grounds to criticise Madigan and I think you're the first person I've heard from to say he poses for the camera. Is it just when he breaks out Blue Steel when lining up goal kicks or do you have any examples in general play?

He struts a bit around the place. Wouldn't bother me too much though. He is a young fellow. Thats what they do.

SecretFly wrote:Madigan - against the opposition he was against - couldn't have done no more.  
I think he acts the part because he feels the part - no shame in that.  
I wouldn't call him overly-coc-ky but maybe a new version of Irish player who doesn't come from a generation that feel they have to be honestly meek and humble all the time.  Rob Kearney has his own Best Camera angle for the glory-frown of broodom too  A lot of the newer generation know how to do the cinematics.

You only have to be meek and mild if you are Simon Zebo.

I think they all come over as fairly humble.

SecretFly wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Notch wrote:

ebop wrote:Ok true, just had a quick look originally. Maybe not a deliberate stomp but its pretty damn careless whatever it is. He'll probably get the benefit of doubt given he didnt deliberately aim for the eyeball. The irish guy must have a touch eye socket. Did he get up and whack the guy?

No, thankfully not. He showed some good restraint.

On this incident, Reddan approached the referee and noted if he could ask him a serious question but the ref responded 'No'.  Even if it is deemed careless or accidental, surely any kind of strike to the face should be TMO'd and if the play is dead and the captain for a side comes forward with 'serious' questions, they should be acknowledged by the ref?

Maybe the ref was acknowledging a previous word in his ear from the sideline suggesting an incident was noted but that it appreared a genuine mis-step?  
It just seems that he knew why he wasn't going to give Reddan the TMO time.  I don't think he was ignoring anything but he did seem to have had a defined attitude to the incident and perhaps didn't want the circus of a crowd trying to influence the outcomes with a series of Boos on repeat viewings.

Seen a bit more on this. Reddan didn't go to the ref straight away and the game had moved on a bit from the incident. Wouldn't hold that against the ref. Reddan if he was a more regular captain might have highlighted it earlier.

Hope the citing officer is pragmatic and sensible on it. If it was an accident then the fella shouldn't be thrown under the bus. I get the impression sometimes that the IRB like to make examples of some players especially towards the end of tours by handing out lengthy bans to up their punishment averages.

http://vimeo.com/25931145

Madigan reminds me of this guy.

He does?!

It's interesting you see him that high on the self-regard ladder, Guns.  

I can't see it myself.  Oh yes, he sticks out the chest and moves with purpose, always looks in command, seldom looks spooked, and loves the hairstyles (I'm growing on his latest one - much more classic Hitler Youth kinda thing than the tuft of grass on a piece of bare rock thing he had not so long ago! )

Yes, he has his little mannerisms.  But he certainly doesn't milk the kicks like other kickers do - so it doesn't seem to me that he wants the camera on him longer than his allotted time.  I just think he's a little bundle of kiddish energy - very similar to Gopperth in that sense, who always makes me laugh with his choppy strut and large personality.

What I like about Madigan is that he has that arrogance the best players have without doing anything too daft. To compare like with like both Madigan and Sexton seem to have the right temperament, you don't want a Paddy Jackson or an Owen Farrell in your side (admittedly those two still have time to mature).

I've said it before but Sexton-Madigan-Henshaw is the way to go. 
Creativity - check, solidity - check, kicking options - check.

Fly, its simples. Mads went to 'Rock, Guns went to Clongowes

Of course Guns isn't going to approve of Mads

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuONgHdQzvw

Hold on. I never said I didn't approve of him. He is a really good player and should our deputy OH. He does have a sort of silly swagger about him though that only a Rock jock could have.

You crack me up though Sin.

brennomac wrote:OK - the opposition was no great shakes and some players were on for no more than 15-20 minutes but who advanced their cause in the Georgia game and who went into reverse

Good for Jones, Madigan, Reddan, Kilcoyne, Strauss, Foley, Ryan, Olding, Copeland, O'Donnell
Bad for Darcy (ok he's coming back from injury but he made no impact whatsoever), Cave, Diack, McCarthy

OK and no more than that for Zebo, Gilroy, Ross (we badly need Moore and White back from injury to take some of the pressure off him - Ah You might have looked good in the loose on Sunday but did he have to scrum down even once?).

Thought it was a little bit over the top to give Foley MOTM, but he was very good and controlled the lineout and looks the real deal - unlike McCarthy.  If Foley keeps it up then the second rows going to the RWC should be POC, Toner, Foley and Henderson (if fit) - especially as Henderson can cover 6 as well.

Given the limit on the size of the squad, will three LH's be brought to RWC - if yes then Healy, McGrath and Kilcoyne the obvious three, if only two then who misses out? Even though he was good on Sunday, Kilcoyne might be the unlucky one

In the back line, Jones was excellent but the entire three-quarter line was nondescript (Gilroy and Zebo) to poor (Darcy and Cave). Said in a post last week, Trimble and Bowe only wingers to be defo for RWC - still other places to be fought for. Jones now probably in the frame since he can cover wing and FB

Madigan was mostly very good at 10 (and has become a very reliable goalkicker) as was Reddan at 9.  Barring total loss of form or injuries looks like Murray, Reddan and Marmion for the 9 slots for RWC and Madigan as number two to Sexton as well as being a very useful utility back - hard to see Keatley or Jackson upsetting that selection - again barring a total loss of form by Madigan.  Now if we could also only get that moron Matt O'Connor to start Madigan at 10....

Need to see more of Olding in the months ahead but (admittedly against a Georgia team out on its feet) he looked very good, setting up Jones nicely for a try and running a great line for his own try. Darcy has been a favourite of mine for many years, but he is going to have to improve and put in a good performance against Aus if Payne is still injured and he is picked.  Yeah, I know we need experience in certain positions especially as Payne, Olding and Henshaw have only a few caps between them but experience can only go so far to compensate for absence of form.  Odds are that Darcy will go to RWC but will he be a starter?

Still a long time to go, and we have the 6N and the pre-RWC friendlies but some players on the fringes have laid down markets, others have a bit of catching up to do and others well......

Agree with a lot of that but totally disagree with Diack being bad. He took as many lineout balls as Foley - mostly at the back of the line and he carried as much as Cronin who was not far behind Kilcoyne, his other stats too are ahead of Ryan (who had a very quiet game). Diack hasn't played 8 in a while and was then shifted to Lock where he did better than McCarthy (not hard I know). Joe will only be able to take eight players to cover backrow and lock. That means that with two locks starting/one on the bench and three backrows starting/one on the bench there is only one (yes ONE) squad place for a player to cover all five positions in case of injury. He has experience and versatility so I can see why Joe is looking seriously at him.

WRT whether three looseheads will go, I can't see how Joe could dare go with any less. If Healy say were to pick up a knock that kept him out of the following weeks squad (but not the tournament), would Joe simply send him home and call up Kilcoyne? Unlikely. Also rotating the position between two rather than three players means that in a long tournament like the RWC players are getting no respite even in the lesser games. The same applies to Tighthead where there should be three THs in the squad.
If there are to be only five props in the squad rather than six then one has to be able to play both sides and there aren't any of those currently in the frame.

If D'Arcy is one of the A team starting Centers then he should go. If not then he shouldn't. Other players can fill in for the B games and offer more utility for injuries and impact from the bench. He has a load of experience and Joe knows him inside out so there is a fair chance he will start 12 in the big games.

theslosty wrote:What I like about Madigan is that he has that arrogance the best players have without doing anything too daft. To compare like with like both Madigan and Sexton seem to have the right temperament, you don't want a Paddy Jackson or an Owen Farrell in your side (admittedly those two still have time to mature).

I've said it before but Sexton-Madigan-Henshaw is the way to go. 
Creativity - check, solidity - check, kicking options - check.

Why do people insist on putting OHs in the centre. It was the same when Sexton was Rogs deputy. Madigans time will come but he is an OH.

Be interested to see what other Munster supporters think but to me James Cronin is a stronger all round LH than kilcoyne - better scrummager and destructive in the lose

Unfortunately I haven't been watching any domestic rugby recently BlueMuff so I wouldn't be too familiar with J Cronin. Would be interested to hear what other Munster fans think. Because I thought Kilcoyne was really good in the Georgia game. McGrath's been good too. If only we had such an abundance of quality on the tighthead side.