England v Australia, 2nd Test: Lords, 16th-20th July

First topic message reminder :

England

Lyth
Cook
Ballance
Bell
Root
Stokes
Buttler
Ali
Broad
Wood
Anderson


Australia

Prob Team:

Warner
Rogers
Smith
Clarke
Voges
Marsh
Nevill
Johnson
Starc
Lyon
Hazlewood



Officials

Umpires - HDPK Dharmasena and M Erasmus
TV umpire - CB Gaffaney
Match referee - RS Madugalle
Reserve umpire - AG Wharf

Still think the manner of this defeat matters nothing compared to if they had shown some spunk?

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Ali can do one as well, the worst so called English batsmen i've seen since Ian Ward.

DROP THEM ALL!

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Ali can do one as well, the worst so called English batsmen i've seen since Ian Ward.

You're talking out of your backside. In case you hadn't noticed he's been better than most of the top 4.

CaledonianCraig wrote:Still think the manner of this defeat matters nothing compared to if they had shown some spunk?

I'm sure the Aussies are there thinking "if only we'd lost by 25 runs in Cardiff" right now.

It really doesn't matter

CaledonianCraig wrote:Still think the manner of this defeat matters nothing compared to if they had shown some spunk?

Agreed.

Losing while putting up a fight is one thing, but England have simply waved the white flag here.

dyrewolfe wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Ali can do one as well, the worst so called English batsmen i've seen since Ian Ward.

You're talking out of your backside. In case you hadn't noticed he's been better than most of the top 4.

He's in the team because of his perceived batting and has passed 50 on only four occasions, his bowling isn't good enough to keep him in the team so it's time we tried someone different.

dyrewolfe wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Still think the manner of this defeat matters nothing compared to if they had shown some spunk?

Agreed.

Losing while putting up a fight is one thing, but England have simply waved the white flag here.

Exactly my point.

If I were selector the changes I'd make would be to axe Bell and bring in either Finn or Taylor. By that I mean bring either Finn into the team in his place giving an extra bowler or bring Taylor in to replace him as a batsman.

Root clean bowled for 17. England 101 for 9 and on the brink of an embarrassing defeat.

Isn't taking long for the "sack 'em all" cries to come out

Look it's been absolutely horrible today. But this is the same team that won in Cardiff - very convincingly. They've not all become muppets overnight. And they're in the team in the first place because they had reasonable claims to be best available for their positions.

There may be changes. Arguably there should be changes. But a panic driven rush for the lifeboats never won a Test series before ; and it won't now.

Take it on the chin , congratulate the Australians ( through gritted teeth) and vow to come back hard at Edgbaston.

That's for the players...we can't do anything but chew the furniture

At least I get to bed before 2 am ...

Right we're at 1-1 in the series so the only logical solution would be to drop everyone and bring in out of nick county players - makes perfect sense

Or...

We take the loss on the chin (like the Aussies did in Cardiff) and move onto the next game, whilst reviewing the positions of players like Bell (who is the only one I'd consider dropping), looking at Bairstow in his place.

Lets have less of knee jerking ta

These two tests have really shown how small the margins are on which whole tests can turn.

In Cardiff Haddin shelled a chance from Root who went on to play the match defining innings.

Here at Lords Root dropped Smith in the first innings who then went on to rack up a double.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

dyrewolfe wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Still think the manner of this defeat matters nothing compared to if they had shown some spunk?

Agreed.

Losing while putting up a fight is one thing, but England have simply waved the white flag here.

Exactly my point.

If I were selector the changes I'd make would be to axe Bell and bring in either Finn or Taylor. By that I mean bring either Finn into the team in his place giving an extra bowler or bring Taylor in to replace him as a batsman.

Oh come on Craig ...they get bowled out for 100 and you want to lengthen the tail ? If four fast bowlers can't get them out a fifth won't help...

Agree Bell is on very thin ice.

alfie wrote:Isn't taking long for the "sack 'em all" cries to come out

Look it's been absolutely horrible today. But this is the same team that won in Cardiff - very convincingly.  They've not all become muppets overnight.  And they're in the team in the first place because they had reasonable claims to be best available for their positions.

There may be changes. Arguably there should be changes. But a panic driven rush for the lifeboats never won a Test series before ; and it won't now.

Take it on the chin , congratulate the Australians ( through gritted teeth) and vow to come back hard at Edgbaston.  

That's for the players...we can't do anything but chew the furniture

At least I get to bed before 2 am ...

Well that is the pragmatic way to look at it but look at Australia and how they dealt with their heavy defeat. They weren't ready to accept mediocrity and made changes to their side and the same should apply to England. I am not saying wide scale changes just tweaks as in axe Bell and try to put a bit more steel in to reinforce a top order now in a habit of collapses. Bairstow is in form and could come in and Taylor as well could do a job.

I would hope Steffan is going to get an immediate ban for that despicable comment?

Olly wrote:Right we're at 1-1 in the series so the only logical solution would be to drop everyone and bring in out of nick county players - makes perfect sense

Or...

We take the loss on the chin (like the Aussies did in Cardiff) and move onto the next game, whilst reviewing the positions of players like Bell (who is the only one I'd consider dropping), looking at Bairstow in his place.

Lets have less of knee jerking ta

But isn't knee jerking the national sport ? Or is that Morris dancing...

Don't worry Olly ; the selection absurdities will all be paraded in the next week. I'm glad I don't get the English newspapers .

What am I saying ? I have the Australian ones delivered

Don't think bringing in James Taylor will help at the moment - averaging 29 with a high score of 70 odd not out (made today) this summer. I like him, but bringing him in at the moment would be counter productive.

Bell is the only one I'd seriously consider changing, for Bairstow.

And I'd maybe look to rotate a seamer - to just save legs.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I would hope Steffan is going to get an immediate ban for that despicable comment?

I did report it - so we can only hope!

alfie wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

dyrewolfe wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Still think the manner of this defeat matters nothing compared to if they had shown some spunk?

Agreed.

Losing while putting up a fight is one thing, but England have simply waved the white flag here.

Exactly my point.

If I were selector the changes I'd make would be to axe Bell and bring in either Finn or Taylor. By that I mean bring either Finn into the team in his place giving an extra bowler or bring Taylor in to replace him as a batsman.

Oh come on Craig ...they get bowled out for 100 and you want to lengthen the tail ?  If four fast bowlers can't get them out a fifth won't help...

Agree Bell is on very thin ice.

I offered two options there though. You could replace Bell with an extra bowler and promote Ali up the order or bring in another batsman for him. Either way I'd axe him now and rule out selecting him on the old boys club policy that the selectors seem to have.

Australia wrap up the win in super quick time to win by 404 runs. The series is level now at 1-1.

It's not a knee jerk reaction when there are players in the team who have shown that they are not good enough for test cricket, I think some like Olly are too swayed by limited overs performances.

I missed Steffans comment. Perhaps just as well ?

Rather glad my stream quit. Warne was so busy gloating he was starting to drool...

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I would hope Steffan is going to get an immediate ban for that despicable comment?

Not my area but ill have a chat, that sort of xenophobia is never EVER acceptable in any part of this forum, someone always goes too far when the ashes are on.

On the brightside... its still 1-1

alfie wrote:
Take it on the chin , congratulate the Australians ( through gritted teeth) and vow to come back hard at Edgbaston.  

That's for the players...we can't do anything but chew the furniture

At least I get to bed before 2 am ...

Firstly, commiserations to England and their fans. It just seemed to go from bad to worse for them after the coin toss.

That was a truly magnificent and very comprehensive win for Australia. Almost the perfect Lord's test match. They batted and bowled so well.
Massive turnaround from Cardiff which is a distant memory now, no doubt. They will all be looking forward to continuing in the same form for the next three matches, I'd' say. The inclusion of Neville and Marsh has been good. Jinxing and sledging mysteriously absent from this match. It was played in a good spirit and was therefore even more enjoyable!

Yes, bed before 2am for us. Sweet dreams!

Too late for a chat, some handsome soul dished out a ban.

Is Compton too broken to be given a go? I think he'd show incredible fight.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

alfie wrote:Isn't taking long for the "sack 'em all" cries to come out

Look it's been absolutely horrible today. But this is the same team that won in Cardiff - very convincingly.  They've not all become muppets overnight.  And they're in the team in the first place because they had reasonable claims to be best available for their positions.

There may be changes. Arguably there should be changes. But a panic driven rush for the lifeboats never won a Test series before ; and it won't now.

Take it on the chin , congratulate the Australians ( through gritted teeth) and vow to come back hard at Edgbaston.  

That's for the players...we can't do anything but chew the furniture

At least I get to bed before 2 am ...

Well that is the pragmatic way to look at it but look at Australia and how they dealt with their heavy defeat. They weren't ready to accept mediocrity and made changes to their side and the same should apply to England. I am not saying wide scale changes just tweaks as in axe Bell and try to put a bit more steel in to reinforce a top order now in a habit of collapses. Bairstow is in form and could come in and Taylor as well could do a job.

To be fair I think most of Australia's changes were forced.

I think the biggest change was in their attitude and mindset. They realised they needed to get their act together...and they did.

England seemed to go into this game thinking it woulkd be a cakewalk after Cardiff and got their backsides handed to them from the first day.

I agree you can't go making wholesale changes to the team...but they all need to take a long hard look at themselves after this utter shambles and realise you can never relax for a moment against Australia. The coaching staff also need to play their plart in getting the players' heads right for the next match.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

alfie wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

dyrewolfe wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Still think the manner of this defeat matters nothing compared to if they had shown some spunk?

Agreed.

Losing while putting up a fight is one thing, but England have simply waved the white flag here.

Exactly my point.

If I were selector the changes I'd make would be to axe Bell and bring in either Finn or Taylor. By that I mean bring either Finn into the team in his place giving an extra bowler or bring Taylor in to replace him as a batsman.

Oh come on Craig ...they get bowled out for 100 and you want to lengthen the tail ?  If four fast bowlers can't get them out a fifth won't help...

Agree Bell is on very thin ice.

I offered two options there though. You could replace Bell with an extra bowler and promote Ali up the order or bring in another batsman for him. Either way I'd axe him now and rule out selecting him on the old boys club policy that the selectors seem to have.

Australia wrap up the win in super quick time to win by 404 runs. The series is level now at 1-1.

Yeah you did offer two options , Craig , fair. I only called you on the daft one

The other idea , Taylor for Bell , is one I'd consider. Though as Olly pointed out he appears to have rather mislaid his form. Perhaps Bairstow ,with Root moving up , would be more likely.

Unfortunately it still doesn't address the big problem : top three ; of whom only Cook really looks up to it at the moment - and the pressure told on him this afternoon.

But I dont think you make decisions in the (emotional) moment of disaster ; as Olly says , you stop and think about it calmly and logically , and act as you reckon is best.

But since we aren't selectors it doesn't matter much anyway

The Loaded Dog wrote:

alfie wrote:
Take it on the chin , congratulate the Australians ( through gritted teeth) and vow to come back hard at Edgbaston.  

That's for the players...we can't do anything but chew the furniture

At least I get to bed before 2 am ...

Firstly, commiserations to England and their fans. It just seemed to go from bad to worse for them after the coin toss.

That was a truly magnificent and very comprehensive win for Australia. Almost the perfect Lord's test match. They batted and bowled so well.
Massive turnaround from Cardiff which is a distant memory now, no doubt. They will all be looking forward to continuing in the same form for the next three matches, I'd' say. The inclusion of Neville and Marsh has been good. Jinxing and sledging mysteriously absent from this match. It was played in a good spirit and was therefore even more enjoyable!

Yes, bed before 2am for us. Sweet dreams!

Yes congratulations LD ...a pretty comprehensive win

One all and we will see why Edgbaston brings...

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Too late for a chat, some handsome soul dished out a ban.

Is Compton too broken to be given a go? I think he'd show incredible fight.

If we want to replace Lyth then he's probably been the most consistent opener in county cricket. Given he's averaging around 40 that really sums up how few players are throwing their hands up for selection than anything else.

People mention Taylor but he has had a poor season. Likewise for Sam Robson so a recall there is out of the equation. Hales started brilliantly but has faded more recently.

Vince was being mentioned over the winter following a brilliant summer in 2014. His time in division one has been torrid this summer however.

Bairstow is playing brilliantly but he isn't a top order player. The highest I would want him in test cricket is 5 which would mean a rejig in the order if Bell or Ballance were dropped.

it's a fair to say that will ground the press who got ahead of themselves (building up eng just so they could savage them now of course).

Just giving notice that this post marks the beginning of my SAM HAIN FOR ENGLAND campaign.

king_carlos wrote:

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Too late for a chat, some handsome soul dished out a ban.

Is Compton too broken to be given a go? I think he'd show incredible fight.

If we want to replace Lyth then he's probably been the most consistent opener in county cricket. Given he's averaging around 40 that really sums up how few players are throwing their hands up for selection than anything else.

People mention Taylor but he has had a poor season. Likewise for Sam Robson so a recall there is out of the equation. Hales started brilliantly but has faded more recently.

Vince was being mentioned over the winter following a brilliant summer in 2014. His time in division one has been torrid this summer however.

Bairstow is playing brilliantly but he isn't a top order player. The highest I would want him in test cricket is 5 which would mean a rejig in the order if Bell or Ballance were dropped.

Good question from Dolph and good response from King Carlos.

I like Compton and feel he got a raw deal with England. However, as Alfie sagely posted, we're not the selectors and the real ones are often reluctant to return to someone who's been discarded. Also, as Carlos points out, he's in reasonable but hardly outstanding form. Having earned a place in the Test side, I believe Lyth deserves one more go but he'll need to make that count.

Hoggy_Bear wrote:Just giving notice that this post marks the beginning of my SAM HAIN FOR ENGLAND campaign.

I fail to see how that would help England's cause...

Samhain

Last updated 2011-10-19

This festival, coming between autumn and winter, marks the Day of the Dead. For Pagans, it is a time for honouring departed spirits and reflecting on changes in their lives.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/paganism/holydays/samhain.shtml

Hoggy_Bear wrote:Just giving notice that this post marks the beginning of my SAM HAIN FOR ENGLAND campaign.

Isn't he like Sam Robson, born an Aussie?

Hoggy_Bear wrote:Just giving notice that this post marks the beginning of my SAM HAIN FOR ENGLAND campaign.

I'll see your Sam Hain and raise you Rory Burns.

It's a shame that Nick Gubbins, full name Nicholas Richard Trail Gubbins, is struggling so much in his second summer. It would be good for fan morale if we could discuss the possibility of selecting a player with a name that glorious.

Olly wrote:

Hoggy_Bear wrote:Just giving notice that this post marks the beginning of my SAM HAIN FOR ENGLAND campaign.

Isn't he like Sam Robson, born an Aussie?

Born in Hong Kong to British parents. Grew up in Oz, Describes himself as "a fair dinkum pom" saying he has wanted to play for England since he was 14 at least.

dyrewolfe wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

alfie wrote:Isn't taking long for the "sack 'em all" cries to come out

Look it's been absolutely horrible today. But this is the same team that won in Cardiff - very convincingly.  They've not all become muppets overnight.  And they're in the team in the first place because they had reasonable claims to be best available for their positions.

There may be changes. Arguably there should be changes. But a panic driven rush for the lifeboats never won a Test series before ; and it won't now.

Take it on the chin , congratulate the Australians ( through gritted teeth) and vow to come back hard at Edgbaston.  

That's for the players...we can't do anything but chew the furniture

At least I get to bed before 2 am ...

Well that is the pragmatic way to look at it but look at Australia and how they dealt with their heavy defeat. They weren't ready to accept mediocrity and made changes to their side and the same should apply to England. I am not saying wide scale changes just tweaks as in axe Bell and try to put a bit more steel in to reinforce a top order now in a habit of collapses. Bairstow is in form and could come in and Taylor as well could do a job.

To be fair I think most of Australia's changes were forced.

I think the biggest change was in their attitude and mindset. They realised they needed to get their act together...and they did.

England seemed to go into this game thinking it woulkd be a cakewalk after Cardiff and got their backsides handed to them from the first day.

I agree you can't go making wholesale changes to the team...but they all need to take a long hard look at themselves after this utter shambles and realise you can never relax for a moment against Australia. The coaching staff also need to play their plart in getting the players' heads right for the next match.

No 50% was forced and 50% was Watson dropped because of lack of form. There are players in the side out of form (perhaps even more so than Watson was). Some deserve more time but Bell I'd say his time has run out. Definitely option there is bringing in Bairstow (in form) for him but I have no doubt his membership in the old boys club will save him from the axe and perhaps scapegoats will be made of Lyth or Ballance.

What I do know is the manner of that defeat is unacceptable. Bowled out for just over 100 on what was a lifeless pitch is a sin.

Rubbish from England. Rubbish all test. Rubbish consistency (although this inconsistency is becoming worryingly consistent).

Well done to Australia, though. Difficult to gauge how great their improvement was from Cardiff to Lord's, since England played atrociously.

Missed all of the day's play - just as well I imagine. Spent most of the afternoon with a gorgeous Australian lad - who knew and cared f all about cricket, a gentle relief.

But always grasp the positive branches.

This was always the game that England were most likely to lose. England will have learnt their lesson about preparing these poor pitches. And the bookmakers have shoved England back to a 4/1 shot to win the Ashes...so get on!

Well that was humiliating. Embarrassing. Awful. Woke up this morning at 100 for 9. Great start to the day.

Smith and Rogers between them scored more than the entire England team.

Hoggy_Bear wrote:Just giving notice that this post marks the beginning of my SAM HAIN FOR ENGLAND campaign.

Hoggy - you want him to replace Bell?

guildfordbat wrote:

Hoggy_Bear wrote:Just giving notice that this post marks the beginning of my SAM HAIN FOR ENGLAND campaign.

Hoggy - you want him to replace Bell?

Looks likely that someone will, so might as well keep up the Bears contingent in the England team.

Well that was bad. My stream kicked the can at 43-2, and by the time I got it back Ballance was out. it was a sign really. England got decimated. Like badly. Like OMG they totes got smashed.

As an aside.... With that final pair of wickets... Hazlewood's the leading wicket taker. NostRafdamus is on for a large haul

Did not see a ball live of this test, so only comment I can really make is that capitulation was pathetic.

An absolute thumping from the Australia. They just destroyed England in the 2nd innings, the farce lasting just about 37 overs. Johnson bowled with fire, and the rest of the attack backed him up brilliantly.
Rogers and Smith gave them the platform and then there was no looking back.

Yet another atrocious collective showing from the England top order. At least 1 used to stand up usually, this time there was none, and Joe Root couldn't save them either. Will the selectors act at last? Cook did hint that perhaps the selectors will have to take a look at that.
Think Lyth deserves another opportunity. Ballance still have a decent overall record, he's young as well. Ian Bell has been playing average to pathetic cricket after the India series of 2011 barring the 2013 Ashes. Since that 2013 series, he has been far too inconsistent for a senior batsman in the side. But will the selectors act? Or will they hold off till Bell scores a ton and finds his way back or retires under the pressure?
Though Bairstow has been scoring big at the county level, his technique will have to have improved considerably since his last chance at the test level,, if he has to have any consistent success. But he seems the form man and the only realistic option since they have their trust issues nonsense.......

In hindsight I'd say this was like the First Test in reverse. In Cardiff, the real Australia never turned up and England were better in all aspects of the game resulting in a heavyish defeat for Australia. At Lords, England failed to perform and Australia were better in all areas resulting in a very heavy defeat for England. Hmm I wonder if that is offering clues.

CaledonianCraig wrote:In hindsight I'd say this was like the First Test in reverse. In Cardiff, the real Australia never turned up and England were better in all aspects of the game resulting in a heavyish defeat for Australia. At Lords, England failed to perform and Australia were better in all areas resulting in a very heavy defeat for England. Hmm I wonder if that is offering clues.

I'd suggest that Australia were overconfident in Cardiff (and they have said as much) - and I do wonder if some of that has crept into England this test, maybe thinking that the Aussies were in a bit of bother (selection issues etc).

Either way both sides have a stinker and a very good performance from the first two tests. Certainly makes Edgbaston a complete unknown!

My point was that, as we both agree, both sides have had stinkers but Australia's stinker resorted in a defeat of under 200 runs whereas England's stinker resorted in a defeat of just over 400 runs. That may just be an indication of the gap between the teams. We shall soon find out I suppose.

CaledonianCraig wrote:My point was that, as we both agree, both sides have had stinkers but Australia's stinker resorted in a defeat of under 200 runs whereas England's stinker resorted in a defeat of just over 400 runs. That may just be an indication of the gap between the teams. We shall soon find out I suppose.

Well I think most on here would agree that on paper Australia have the better side (barring Duty of course!) - they have the world class seam attack, and the best batsman in the world among others. 

But as has been proven in world cricket over many years, it's tough to win series away from home conditions even if you are the better side. And we have a side that has a lot of potential in it.

That's what's making the series so intriguing!

Olly wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:My point was that, as we both agree, both sides have had stinkers but Australia's stinker resorted in a defeat of under 200 runs whereas England's stinker resorted in a defeat of just over 400 runs. That may just be an indication of the gap between the teams. We shall soon find out I suppose.

Well I think most on here would agree that on paper Australia have the better side (barring Duty of course!) - they have the world class seam attack, and the best batsman in the world among others. 

But as has been proven in world cricket over many years, it's tough to win series away from home conditions even if you are the better side. And we have a side that has a lot of potential in it.

That's what's making the series so intriguing!

England are in with a shout but for me they need key players to stand up and be counted and at the moment a few of them are hiding. Gary Ballance has toiled, Bell has been poor aside a 60+ in Cardiff (his first 50+ score in a while) and Anderson hasn't weighed in with the wickets expected of him. That must change or the urn will be heading back to the southern hemisphere.

I was at Lords today. An utterly dominant performance by the Aussies, and England had pretty much nothing to offer.  Sustained hostility by the Aussie bowlers.  Among the England dismissals Stokes' one stands out as being daft, but Cook and Buttler both offered vague wafts at the ball.  Bells' innings was tortured. He was dropped as well as playing and missing on numerous occasions.