Yes 53% - No 44% ....Can Sturgeon take advantage and gain independence for Scotland ??

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 3:23 pm

First topic message reminder :

Amazing polling figures from Ipsos-Mori (Poller was closest to the result in 2014)....Show a big 9% lead for those that want independence....

All time high !!!!

The question is how does Sturgeon manipulate another vote sooner rather than later to take advantage ??

Let's be honest this SNP bubble won't last !!!!!...........

Much food for thought for the little ball-breaker and her army..............

These figures must be both uplifting and depressing at the same time !!!.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Thu 17 Sep 2015, 5:39 pm

Although you have to admit we need to see how these changes can be continued and the impact they have. Equally, can the SNP do all this without the safety blanket waiting there, thats another question.

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Post by superflyweight on Thu 17 Sep 2015, 5:40 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:Would be better if you posted something they did do CC.

Free prescriptions.  That were already free to those that needed them to be.  I and millions of others can afford to pay for them and I would be happy to do so if it meant the money went directly to fund the NHS.  Essentially a policy which benefits the middle classes.

Not introducing tuition fees (unlike rest of UK) meaning college spots are affordable for more. Exodus swarmed up to Scotland from England for those.  Again a policy which ultimately benefits the middle classes.  College (not University) places have been cut to fund the lack of tuition fees and thousands of kids from poorer backgrounds who would have traditionally taken up those college places have been denied any access to further education.  Schools are equally underfunded and class sizes are growing.  Also, and this is important, free tuition places are not available to English students but are to students from the rest of the EU.

Re-opening train routes closed by Doctor Beeching.  Their involvement in the Borders railway was directly responsible for at least a three year delay and a reduction in the scope of the service.

Frozen council taxes for 4 years.  Again, another policy which ultimately benefits the middle classes the most and has led to a cut in services which were previously provided to the poorer members of society that needed them the most.  Again, I'd be more than happy to pay a bit extra to make sure that important services are maintained.  the SNP say they are anti-austerity, but this is the very definition of an austerity policy.  

Introduced extra policemen onto streets.  A tiny round of applause but Police Scotland has a number of failings.  

See comments in bold above.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Thu 17 Sep 2015, 5:44 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:Would be better if you posted something they did do CC.

Free prescriptions.

Not introducing tuition fees (unlike rest of UK) meaning college spots are affordable for more. Exodus swarmed up to Scotland from England for those.

Re-opening train routes closed by Doctor Beeching.

Frozen council taxes for 4 years.

Introduced extra policemen onto streets.

Excellent. All fantastic things to do, all things I'd hope to happen in England. Now- What did they cost you?

No more than I was paying for when Tories were introducing Poll Tax, introducing slave labour YTS schemes closing down coal mines, privatizing everything or when Labour were taking the country into false wars founded on lies.

Laugh


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Post by superflyweight on Thu 17 Sep 2015, 5:46 pm

It's also important to note that despite the lack of tuition fees, it's been shown that a child from a poor background in England is more likely to go to University than a child from a poor background in Scotland.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 17 Sep 2015, 5:51 pm

All still far more worthwhile policies than what Scottish Conservatives and Scottish Labour offer. Even during the last election (I think on the BBC coverage) Ken Livingstone mused over Labour's disastrous fall in Scotland admitted the party should re-invent and compartmentalize itself as Scottish Labour had lost touch with Scottish matters. Spot on. The same I'd say applies to Scottish Conservative.

It is all very well for people here to attempt to pick holes in the SNP, what is stands for, what its policies are and what its mandate is but look at Labour and the Tories and try to tell me they are parties worthy of voting for and I'd say no way. Parties soiled with decades of lies, false wars, shocking policies, corruption and dirty dealings. There is as good as reason as any why many Scots have had enough.
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Post by superflyweight on Thu 17 Sep 2015, 5:56 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:All still far more worthwhile policies than what Scottish Conservatives and Scottish Labour offer. Even during the last election (I think on the BBC coverage) Ken Livingstone mused over Labour's disastrous fall in Scotland admitted the party should re-invent and compartmentalize itself as Scottish Labour had lost touch with Scottish matters. Spot on. The same I'd say applies to Scottish Conservative.

It is all very well for people here to attempt to pick holes in the SNP, what is stands for, what its policies are and what its mandate is but look at Labour and the Tories and try to tell me they are parties worthy of voting for and I'd say no way. Parties soiled with decades of lies, false wars, shocking policies, corruption and dirty dealings. There is as good as reason as any why many Scots have had enough.

But just because other parties are rubbish doesn't mean the government should get a free ride. Regardless of where they are as a party now, Labour's performance in government in Scotland was demonstrably better than the SNP's performance has been over the last 8 years. However and as I mentioned earlier, the SNP have been able to distract from those failings and have convinced the electorate that any failings are not the fault of the Scottish government. Again, just because people in Scotland voted form them, it isn't necessarily because of their performance, it's because of their message. Two entirely different things.

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Post by superflyweight on Thu 17 Sep 2015, 5:57 pm

P.S. that still leaves us without a single socialist, redistributive policy in 8 years of government.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 17 Sep 2015, 6:32 pm

Woah back. Even staunch Labour man Ken Livingstone conceded Scottish Labour had neglected Scottish policies so it isn't the SNP just banding that about. And besides let's just presume what others are saying here is true and that SNP are charlatans etc then people will take their votes elsewhere so let's just wait and see if that is the case.
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Post by SecretFly on Thu 17 Sep 2015, 8:56 pm

superflyweight wrote: just because people in Scotland voted form them, it isn't necessarily because of their performance, it's because of their message.  Two entirely different things.    

I've honestly heard the exact opposite many many times during the last election and in the aftermath of the Independence referendum - 'just because people in Scotland voted for them, it isn't necessarily their Independence message, it's because of their performance in governance.'

So people who like their message and have no time for their message are voting for them - and people who think they perform in government and think they're poor in government voted for them.

They have blanket support by the looks of things.

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Post by superflyweight on Thu 17 Sep 2015, 9:27 pm

I don't doubt it but anyone voting for them purely on the basis of their performance in government has not been paying attention.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Fri 18 Sep 2015, 8:30 am

That is a heck of a lot of people not paying attention then
Too much actually.
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Post by superflyweight on Fri 18 Sep 2015, 9:19 am

Really? Then point to their successes.

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Fri 18 Sep 2015, 9:52 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:Would be better if you posted something they did do CC.

Free prescriptions.

Not introducing tuition fees (unlike rest of UK) meaning college spots are affordable for more. Exodus swarmed up to Scotland from England for those.

Re-opening train routes closed by Doctor Beeching.

Frozen council taxes for 4 years.

Introduced extra policemen onto streets.

That is totally incorrect. My wife is in the Police and they are criminally short on rank and file police officers... no pun intended.

The amalgamation of police Scotland has been a farce that has seen highland and island policing implemented the same way as strathclyde and has seen injured people bleed to death in cars.
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Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Fri 18 Sep 2015, 10:01 am

Furthermore CC, is evidently a Nationalist and that's totally fine, we live in a democracy after all. thumbsup

However I cannot understand the blind faith that many nationalists have for the cause.

If the socialist policies are what draw you to the SNP how can you justify tax breaks for oil and gas and massive corperations.

Jeanie the cleaner who makes the living wage is paying her taxes to subsidise BP workers who make on average £80k a year?

Is that the sexy socialism that the SNP stand for?

Or slashing corporation Tax so Amazon can use slave labour at their distribution depot in Dunfermline? Paying the minimum wage whilst paying 10% less tax than the rest of the UK, despite not paying their tax properly in the UK anyway?

and the less said about Trump and his golf course the better!

For some reason westminster is corrupt and untrustworthy and the SNP are truthful and paragons of politics.

One day Scotland will wake up, I just hope they do it before the election next year.
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 18 Sep 2015, 10:28 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:Would be better if you posted something they did do CC.

Free prescriptions.

Not introducing tuition fees (unlike rest of UK) meaning college spots are affordable for more. Exodus swarmed up to Scotland from England for those.

Re-opening train routes closed by Doctor Beeching.

Frozen council taxes for 4 years.

Introduced extra policemen onto streets.

Excellent. All fantastic things to do, all things I'd hope to happen in England. Now- What did they cost you?

No more than I was paying for when Tories were introducing Poll Tax, introducing slave labour YTS schemes closing down coal mines, privatizing everything or when Labour were taking the country into false wars founded on lies.

Wowzers, you did suffer, your disposable income hit hard by the poll tax and then they close the coal mines putting you out of a job and then the cheeky feckers make you sign up to Youth Training Scheme. What a life you've had........

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 18 Sep 2015, 10:39 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Furthermore CC, is evidently a Nationalist and that's totally fine, we live in a democracy after all.  thumbsup

However I cannot understand the blind faith that many nationalists have for the cause.

If the socialist policies are what draw you to the SNP how can you justify tax breaks for oil and gas and massive corperations.

Jeanie the cleaner who makes the living wage is paying her taxes to subsidise BP workers who make on average £80k a year?

Is that the sexy socialism that the SNP stand for?

Or slashing corporation Tax so Amazon can use slave labour at their distribution depot in Dunfermline? Paying the minimum wage whilst paying 10% less tax than the rest of the UK, despite not paying their tax properly in the UK anyway?

and the less said about Trump and his golf course the better!

For some reason westminster is corrupt and untrustworthy and the SNP are truthful and paragons of politics.

One day Scotland will wake up, I just hope they do it before the election next year.

.. or is it simply them not caring about all that, Rugger, and thinking - believing - they are a simply a distinct Nation with a distinct identity, and want that acknowledged by the International community in law and deed?

I think after all is said and done, it simply is a desire to be Independent rather than thinking SNP are the ideal Governing party to govern Scotland - independent or not.

In other words, SNP are popular because they are the only ones offering the dream of Independence.  That indeed can be the only conclusion reached if all the wrongs you listed are true and the electorate know them to be true.

Your list of 'wrongs' is proof (if true) that SNP is being elected for other reasons - the Independence reason.

I wonder would the Labour Party's fortunes in Scotland be revived if they declared that they were going to go their own way, break away from Labour in England and are now actually going to support an Independent Scotland?

I think there'd be a spike Wink  And its perhaps what Labour fear most.  Their voters are staying away from them and their policies because they haven't added 'Independence' to the agenda.

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Fri 18 Sep 2015, 11:19 am

That's all fair and well Fly, however the SNP press machine keeps on saying we want to have close ties with the UK government despite them being a hive of corrupt snakes? If the UK are so bad why do we want close relationships?

Like I said the SNP want independence they just don't want the rest of the UK to pay for it.
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Post by SecretFly on Fri 18 Sep 2015, 11:36 am

I think these threads is enough proof, Rugger - more than enough proof - and I mean the sporting ones, not the politics ones, but they're proof that if you have a campaign and a dream and a cause, you'll say and accuse the opponents of such a plan and dream of absolutely anything to offset their opposing view.

Therefore SNP say the UK government is a hive of corrupt snakes (don't believe it totally but politically expedient to keep saying it) and the SNP get a pretty good dose of the 'yis are only separatist rats!" stuff thrown back at them.

It's a war for hearts and minds, like any campaign.  Look at the nice words Cameron had for Miliband when he resigned as Leader. He didn't say quite the same things about him when across the chamber from Miliband in Westminster Wink.  

It's a game - a serious game but a game - and both sides know how to play it.

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Post by Guest on Fri 18 Sep 2015, 11:48 am

Duty281 wrote:
McLaren wrote:Independence is an ever scarier prospect now that we know Cameron will not allow refugees from failed states to enter Britain.

What are you talking about? Britain has a refugee population of over 100,000, with just over 2,000 from Syria.

Not enough, I think, but a complete fabrication to say "Cameron will not allow refugees from failed states to enter Britain."

That's 20,000 Syrians in ADDITION to the regular immigration / asylum channels.  Britain also has spent / is spending £1 billion supporting Syrians in refugee camps around Syria - which is probably more than Saudi - Arabia and the Gulf States put together. Saudi Arabia have offered to pay for more mosques in Europe to help accommodate them.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-cameron-announces-20000-syrian-refugees-will-be-accepted-by-britain--after-more-than-360000-sign-our-petition-10489913.html

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Post by Guest on Fri 18 Sep 2015, 11:57 am

The recent rhetoric by Sturgeon and the SNP is certainly increasing the divide between the Scottish and the "English": "with the UK living on borrowed time" comment  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-34283944

It does seem that independence is inevitable.  "England" has a problem because most of our English politicians believe themselves to be British, and many believe that "Englishness" is inherently racist, and the St George's flag is inherently racist.  With Scottish Independence there will be no more Great Britain, only "England & Wales & Northern Ireland".  Then one could argue it is hardly worth keeping "England & Wales & Northern Ireland" together.  I don't know - what would you call it?  Perhaps the "United Kingdoms". We would also need a new flag --> the white on blue saltire would have to go.

Australia and New Zealand could still keep the Union Jack in their flag - because it is a historical component of their identity.

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Post by Pr4wn on Fri 18 Sep 2015, 12:10 pm

To be honest, I don't blame to Scots for wanting independence. The political landscape north of the border is so different from in England.

The question of independence will keep rearing its head while Scotland remains largely left wing and England remains largely right wing.

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Post by Guest on Fri 18 Sep 2015, 12:28 pm

Personally I think the biggest losers of the Great Britain - United Kingdom enterprise is the English People.  While the Scottish, Welsh, Irish (northern Irish?) have a strong sense of their own identity (often - "not English").  The English identity is up for grabs.  For too long it has been the target of scorn and shame by many (especially those on the left of the political divide).  As mentioned above "Englishness" has been identified with white pot-bellied football hooligans and racists.  More English people are happy to call themselves British than English which brings with it a sense of shame or embarrassment (if you are white).  When Scotland leaves, and the English can no longer call themselves British or use the Union Jack - then there is going to much wailing and gnashing of teeth (maybe).

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Post by navyblueshorts on Fri 18 Sep 2015, 8:28 pm

Fed up to the back teeth with this already. The SNP are beyond belief - they're completely disrespectful of the fact that 55% told them to stuff their independence agenda last year.
For me, if they want to go live in some imaginary pixie land, let them. I can't wait.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Fri 18 Sep 2015, 9:22 pm

Actually no that isn't a stuff that type number. Up until the vote polls even had yes vote slightly ahead hence Gordon Brown messing his pants with fear and trying to turn it into devo-max vote which it was never intended to be by offering promises for voting no which still haven't been fulfilled incidentally. That swayed the don't knows but polls now say those conned by empty promises have said they would vote yes now if given the chance.

If the vote had returned an unequivocal no vote of say two thirds no then I am sure the question would have been answered.

And let's not just say this is the SNP screaming for another vote as the public do as well. Plus Nicolas Sturgeon has been more reserved saying they can wait.
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Post by Duty281 on Fri 18 Sep 2015, 10:05 pm

With the recent slump in the price of oil, I would have thought the 'no' side would flourish in terms of support.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Fri 18 Sep 2015, 11:13 pm

Oil prices are not the issues Scots are going to be swayed on. Being conned or lied to by prominent Westminster figures does sway many.
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Post by GSC on Fri 18 Sep 2015, 11:27 pm

Being conned by those closer to home is clearly a better future
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Post by SecretFly on Fri 18 Sep 2015, 11:30 pm

Well, the letters of complaint have shorter to travel.... Wink

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Fri 18 Sep 2015, 11:33 pm

GSC wrote:Being conned by those closer to home is clearly a better future

SNP have held the balance of power in Scotland now for a few years and their share of the vote is only getting bigger - not smaller. Hardly, symptomatic of voters seeing they are being conned. If that were the case their vote share would now be in decline which it clearly isn't.
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Post by Steffan on Sat 19 Sep 2015, 3:17 pm

A year on and Cameron has not delivered the further devolution powers for Scotland or Wales neither has he given the English their own parliament so if he is willing to move the goal posts then so should Sturg and the SNP

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sat 19 Sep 2015, 4:41 pm

She's more interested in the 2016 Holyrood elections...

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 11:12 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:Oil prices are not the issues Scots are going to be swayed on. Being conned or lied to by prominent Westminster figures does sway many.

Rather be conned and lied to by the SNP...... Rolling Eyes

Oh, and bankrupt.

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 1:15 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
GSC wrote:Being conned by those closer to home is clearly a better future

SNP have held the balance of power in Scotland now for a few years and their share of the vote is only getting bigger - not smaller. Hardly, symptomatic of voters seeing they are being conned. If that were the case their vote share would now be in decline which it clearly isn't.

The SNP's greatest trick is blaming everything on Westminster. They are conning the Scottish people much more effectively than westminster. That rag of a white paper with it's $113 a barrel for brent crude should have set everyone with an IQ greater than a yoghurt questioning their economic abilities.

Again Craig seems to hold them as a paragon of politics despite back alley deals with Trump and their own refusal to wield their existing tax powers in Scotland.

I just hope the opposition can get through to the SNP Zealots because that party will lead our country to ruin.

Finally Craig I respect your opinion, but like Sir Sean Connery, perhaps it's best you stay out of Scottish affairs. It's not you that will have to deal with the consequences since you stay down in London thumbsup
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Post by SecretFly on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 1:28 pm

Hmmm, could all those that don't live in Scotland remove themselves from this debate please.

I'm gone of course.

But others need to go now too.... TopHat?, Truss?, a good few more I'd think....

Orderly please... move towards the exits.... Wink

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Post by ShahenshahG on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 1:33 pm

Think superflyweight and rugg are the last men standing

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Post by superflyweight on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 1:38 pm

B*gger off the lot of you!

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Post by seanmichaels on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 1:41 pm

The Scots should be jettisoned from the UK regardless of whether we get a referendum to vote them out again.

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 3:16 pm

SecretFly wrote:Hmmm, could all those that don't live in Scotland remove themselves from this debate please.

I'm gone of course.

But others need to go now too.... TopHat?, Truss?, a good few more I'd think....

Orderly please... move towards the exits.... Wink

You misunderstand my meaning. A lot of Scottish exiles are in love with the romantic notion of independence they give money hand over fist to the SNP and their cause or preach about it's benefits every chance they get.

It's no issue for them if the vote is yes. It's not their taxes that will sky rocket or their local services that will go down the crapper.

Alan Cummings preaches about Scottish inependece from his 6 bedroom pent house in NYC and Connery preaches about it from his beach side mansion in the Bahamas.
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Post by superflyweight on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 3:39 pm

Yep - Brian Cox (actor not the scientist) says he dreams of an independent Scotland. That's nice Brian, I dream about being a rich Hollywood actor and having an apartment in Manhattan but swings and roundabouts.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 4:41 pm

You guys haven't mentioned Andy Murray..

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 5:29 pm

Hmm nationalism is an ideal as unionism is. One offers a country the chance to run its own country by people of its own nationality. The other offers being ruled from outwith it's borders by a government not with a wholly vested interest in Scotland and passing policies detrimental to Scotland whether they want them or not.

The cracks have been forming in the union for years now as it is antiquidated. Scotland and Wales now have their own parliament and England is demanding their own as well. The old political landscape has also changed.

Posters here can spew as much venom as they want at the SNP or those that want independent for Scotland but that won't quell the strength of feeling.

The SNP's policies and mandate is more trusted than Labour and Tories as the political landscape has shown over the last few years and I don't see that changing either as voters themselves are even becoming active members of the SNP in their many thousands as campaigners etc whilst Labour and Tory MP's are about as rare in Scotland as a Westminster government you can trust.

I will sit back as the Tory government continue to shoot themselves in the foot and no doubt a few years down the line Labour will take up the baton of incompetence. The decay continues.
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Post by Duty281 on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 5:36 pm

I thought the SNP wanted an independent Scotland to be part of the European Union, thus meaning an 'independent' Scotland would be sacrificing its new-found parliamentary sovereignty straight away?

So the SNP aren't actually offering 'the chance to run its own country by people of its own nationality.'

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 5:44 pm

In that case then we would still be no worse off as UK is part of the European Union anyway. One difference is Scotland would be governed by Scots whereas at the moment we are governed by a parliament three hundred miles away with their own agenda.
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Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 7:17 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:In that case then we would still be no worse off as UK is part of the European Union anyway. One difference is Scotland would be governed by Scots whereas at the moment we are governed by a parliament three hundred miles away with their own agenda.

When you are in Kirkwall or Applecross, Edinburgh is just as far away as London.
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Post by Duty281 on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 7:40 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:One difference is Scotland would be governed by Scots

The last time I checked the SNP's grand plan, an 'independent' Scotland would hand its parliamentary sovereignty and the supremacy of its courts to the European Union, whilst simultaneously having its interest rates set by a foreign bank (the Bank of England).

Under that plan, Scotland being governed by the Scottish is a pure illusion.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 7:55 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:In that case then we would still be no worse off as UK is part of the European Union anyway. One difference is Scotland would be governed by Scots whereas at the moment we are governed by a parliament three hundred miles away with their own agenda.

When you are in Kirkwall or Applecross, Edinburgh is just as far away as London.

But all still Scots. ;-)
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 9:44 pm

Duty281 wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:One difference is Scotland would be governed by Scots

The last time I checked the SNP's grand plan, an 'independent' Scotland would hand its parliamentary sovereignty and the supremacy of its courts to the European Union, whilst simultaneously having its interest rates set by a foreign bank (the Bank of England).

Under that plan, Scotland being governed by the Scottish is a pure illusion.

I take it then that the UK is not highly dependent on Europe and seeing as it is no longer a major player as say a car manufacturer and major businesses are internationally owned that the UK as is now in the same boat dependent on others. Difference under independence will be Scots will be in charge of their own decision making and destiny unlike today.
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Post by Duty281 on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 10:29 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:One difference is Scotland would be governed by Scots

The last time I checked the SNP's grand plan, an 'independent' Scotland would hand its parliamentary sovereignty and the supremacy of its courts to the European Union, whilst simultaneously having its interest rates set by a foreign bank (the Bank of England).

Under that plan, Scotland being governed by the Scottish is a pure illusion.

Difference under independence will be Scots will be in charge of their own decision making and destiny unlike today.

They wouldn't be according to the ideals laid down by the SNP.

Want to nationalise your railways, for instance? Tough, the EU won't allow it.

The most crucial aspects to an independent nation are parliamentary sovereignty and a currency of its own - Scotland would have neither of these under what the SNP envisage.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 11:04 pm

The SNP though are or would be disbanded as soon as independence as achieved. It would be broken up into newly formed parties. An election would then take place to elect it's first government. These points were covered during the last referendum so kind of goes against all you've said.
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Post by Duty281 on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 11:21 pm

No it doesn't.

If Scotland had voted 'yes' last year, they had no plans in place to implement a currency of their own, so they would have used the pound sterling. If Scotland had voted 'yes', they would have applied to join the European Union.

None of this has changed.

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