Scarlets v Ulster 12th September 2015 15:00 Parc y Scarlets

First topic message reminder :

Scarlets have won their last five Guinness PRO12 fixtures since Edinburgh won at Parc y Scarlets on 28th March.

This also represents their only home defeat in the tournament since Boxing Day 2013.

Ulster ended a three game winless streak in the Guinness PRO12 with their 28-6 victory over the Ospreys in Belfast on Friday. The Ulstermen have won three of their last six away games in the tournament.

Scarlets have won just one of their last eight encounters with Ulster in the PRO12: 17-9 in Llanelli on 2 November 2013. Overall the Ulstermen have a won 2, drawn 2, lost 5 record in all competitions at Parc y Scarlets.

At Parc y Scarlets, 3pm.

Referee: Andrew Brace (IRFU, 2nd competition game)
Assistant Referees: Neil Hennessy, Justin Williams (both WRU)
Citing Commissioner: Aurwel Morgan (WRU)
TMO: J Mason (WRU)

Live on Sky Sports
Read more at http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/17800.php#Ai2TBfB6KdSd17AW.99

I read them, but to blunt saw them as someone suddenly noticing what they have said and trying to back track and be diplomatic.

Edit: the outrage is far from mock

Well, you should have Learned I'll say what I'll say and I don't really give a toss what you or anyone else on here thinks about it. Backpedaling only applies if you've said something and then you're worried about what impression it will make. I do not care about your opinion of me. If I thought all fans of a team were one way inclined, have no fear that I'd say it. But that would be a truly ridiculous thing to believe. But for the record, thats nonsense. I'll tell you this; I've never gotten into a fight with any Welsh fans at a game because they have abused a referee. I have gotten into verbal arguments with fans at Ravenhill and Croke Park who were abusing referees. Being at more home games it is true that I will comes across more home fans acting badly than others.

It's not an ok thing to do. Not at schools level. Not at club level. Not at professional level. And if you'd rather go through with a microscope looking at things to get offended by rather than saying 'Yes, I agree the referee was inexperienced and made some harsh calls but it's not fair to call him a cheat' then fine. I stand by the fact that as someone who goes to a lot of rugby games, I don't like people who abuse referees. Some Scarlets fans do chant 'Cheat', I doubt that they are a majority and I'm sure they must be as embarrassing to guys like you as the boo boys at Ravenhill are embarrassing to me. But that can't possibly be generalised about all fans.

I mean... do you actually disagree? Even if you yourself are a fair-minded soul do you think it's appropriate to chant cheat at a guy who's taken on the job nobody else wants so we can have a game? I can't believe that you do. I notice what I said and I stand by it. There's no back-pedalling here. I hate to hear it anywhere.

Why am I not surprised that you have been involved in verbal arguments with other fans.

I agree that refs should not get too much aggro, but at the same time people should voice their opinions on decisions. After all what's the difference between being vocal and letting the red know you disagree with decisions at the game, or whinging about them on the internet? Surely running them down n the internet is just as bad, yet it's pretty expected. And sure as hell it never gets put in the 'classless' category.

There's a difference between disagreeing with a decision- be it rightly or wrongly, in the heat of the moment or afterwards- and questioning a persons integrity. In rugby you're going to get calls against you all the time. I feel like more can be done to raise refereeing standards, I feel some referees are better than others but I think saying a referee is cheating because of a marginal call is just silly. Frankly, I agree there's little difference between doing it in person or from behind a keyboard. I've spent quite a lot of time on this site expressing the view that I think people who question the integrity of referees and accuse officials of corruption with no evidence other than a few bad calls are.. let's say extremely toxic individuals. I think when things like that are thrown around with no basis its fairly disappointing.

I have heard all kinds of abuse from fans at our games when things aren't going well. All fan bases have that. I've heard Ulster fans call referees cheats. I've remonstrated with them. I'm not standing up here and saying someone is better than someone else.

Fair enough. I shall remember that next time there is a thread regarding Wayne Barnes. Maybe the 'cheat' chant comes across wrong (and sorry to disappoint you I'm not one of those who take part), it is like a slow clap aimed or boo, aimed at showing disagreement not a question of integrity.

I'm not disappointed at all, I never thought you would have been.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Fair enough.  I shall remember that next time there is a thread regarding Wayne Barnes.  Maybe the 'cheat' chant comes across wrong (and sorry to disappoint you I'm not one of those who take part), it is like a slow clap aimed or boo, aimed at showing disagreement not a question of integrity.

Oh you don't have to wait so long, Scarlet.  Our dearly esteemed, notorious (and loving it) colleague has already began this season where he left off in the last one over on the Leinster v Cardiff thread:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:Navidi gone.

Via a made up decision by a pathetically biased Irish touch judge.

If anyone as any footage of Navidi's indescretion please shoot me down.

I'm sure he was referring to GunsGerms, who is often faintly ridiculous in the things he says about Barnes. I mean, I'm not a fan of how he refs the game but come on.

Congratulations to Scarlets on the win. Ulster didn't deserve anything from that game and should apologise to Sky for this fixture going from one of the most exciting games last season to one of the worst in living memory this time round.

Notch wrote: I think people who question the integrity of referees and accuse officials of corruption with no evidence other than a few bad calls are.. let's say extremely toxic individuals. I think when things like that are thrown around with no basis its fairly disappointing.

.

Yet you refuse to accept that officials refereeing their colleagues and friends is bad practice. Until you realise that that FACT is a blight on the competition your team plays in, you'll probably continue to have little ding dongs around websites like this, and any discourse outside of a BT postcode.

It is utter delusion

The Great Aukster wrote:Congratulations to Scarlets on the win. Ulster didn't deserve anything from that game and should apologise to Sky for this fixture going from one of the most exciting games last season to one of the worst in living memory this time round.

Well done fly you have only gone and attracted him to this thread....

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Notch wrote: I think people who question the integrity of referees and accuse officials of corruption with no evidence other than a few bad calls are.. let's say extremely toxic individuals. I think when things like that are thrown around with no basis its fairly disappointing.

.

Yet you refuse to accept that officials refereeing their colleagues and friends is bad practice. Until you realise that that FACT is a blight on the competition your team plays in, you'll probably continue to have little ding dongs around websites like this, and any discourse outside of a BT postcode.

It is utter delusion

They're not their colleagues and they are not their friends.

ME-109 wrote:Well done fly you have only gone and attracted him to this thread....

I know. Forgive me, folks. I'll say Three hail Marys, promise.

Notch wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Notch wrote: I think people who question the integrity of referees and accuse officials of corruption with no evidence other than a few bad calls are.. let's say extremely toxic individuals. I think when things like that are thrown around with no basis its fairly disappointing.

.

Yet you refuse to accept that officials refereeing their colleagues and friends is bad practice. Until you realise that that FACT is a blight on the competition your team plays in, you'll probably continue to have little ding dongs around websites like this, and any discourse outside of a BT postcode.

It is utter delusion

They're not their colleagues and they are not their friends.

Official documents prove otherwise. Kumquat.

Official friendship documents? Most of us don't feel the need to make our buddies sign on the dotted line...

Have a nightcap Notch. It's been a long day.

#StayClassyNow

Notch wrote:Official friendship documents? Most of us don't feel the need to make our buddies sign on the dotted line...

None of us were certainly forced to sign any to join this place!!!

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Notch wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Notch wrote: I think people who question the integrity of referees and accuse officials of corruption with no evidence other than a few bad calls are.. let's say extremely toxic individuals. I think when things like that are thrown around with no basis its fairly disappointing.

.

Yet you refuse to accept that officials refereeing their colleagues and friends is bad practice. Until you realise that that FACT is a blight on the competition your team plays in, you'll probably continue to have little ding dongs around websites like this, and any discourse outside of a BT postcode.

It is utter delusion

They're not their colleagues and they are not their friends.

Official documents prove otherwise. Kumquat.

You on the mountain dew again, numbnut?

Munchkin wrote:

You on the mountain dew again, numbnut?

I prefer Islay. But thanks for the comment

[remember it is me that supposedly gives "constant abuse"]

And so you do. Sure you love it.

Anyway, try to be a little understanding. I was looking forward to winding you up after Ulster beat Scarlets, and now I have been robbed of that. It's not fair

Thats a bit harsh on yourself chunks...you dont give abuse at all. Your posts are usually extremely insightful and well thought out. I know I speak for everyone in hoping you continue in that vein. In fact I know we are all looking forward to the next year of your input into the Pro 12. We all know that an Irish/Scottish team will win (aided and abetted by numerous referees/touch judges and TMOs - or indeed loadsamoney). Unless of course the O's get a run in (aided and abetted by numerous referees/touch judges and TMOs etc...

Anyhow it wont have anything to do with some teams being better than others but mainly due to the league being crap as well as the refs. So maybe we should all give up now and just pull the winners out of a hat (minus the welsh teams of course).

ME-109 wrote:Thats a bit harsh on yourself chunks...you dont give abuse at all. Your posts are usually extremely insightful and well thought out..

Fair play. That's a nice thing to say. Appreciate it.
cheers.

No worries chunks...the content of your posts provides no end in terms of amusement and hilarity. There is always a need for a class clown in a place like 606v2. You certainly fill that void.

Notch wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Notch wrote: I think people who question the integrity of referees and accuse officials of corruption with no evidence other than a few bad calls are.. let's say extremely toxic individuals. I think when things like that are thrown around with no basis its fairly disappointing.

.

Yet you refuse to accept that officials refereeing their colleagues and friends is bad practice. Until you realise that that FACT is a blight on the competition your team plays in, you'll probably continue to have little ding dongs around websites like this, and any discourse outside of a BT postcode.

It is utter delusion

They're not their colleagues and they are not their friends.

don't feed the troll

Oh that troll feeds himself.... plenty of dead goats under his bridge....

Shockingly bad from Ulster. Nelson is out of position so can't be too harsh on him but that was awful.

McCloskey did some good things but around him it was a shambles - Luke Marshall had a shocker.

Fair play to the Scarlets, despite their illegal tackling and repeated infringing at the breakdown in their own half were the deserving winners.

Notch wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Notch wrote: I think people who question the integrity of referees and accuse officials of corruption with no evidence other than a few bad calls are.. let's say extremely toxic individuals. I think when things like that are thrown around with no basis its fairly disappointing.

.

Yet you refuse to accept that officials refereeing their colleagues and friends is bad practice. Until you realise that that FACT is a blight on the competition your team plays in, you'll probably continue to have little ding dongs around websites like this, and any discourse outside of a BT postcode.

It is utter delusion

They're not their colleagues and they are not their friends.

As they are paid and employed directly by the same organisation, please could you explain why you think that they are not colleagues?

Thanks.

Notch wrote:I mean... do you actually disagree? Even if you yourself are a fair-minded soul do you think it's appropriate to chant cheat at a guy who's taken on the job nobody else wants so we can have a game? I can't believe that you do. I notice what I said and I stand by it. There's no back-pedalling here. I hate to hear it anywhere.

What's this? Nobody wants to be a professional referee?

Notch wrote:I'm sure he was referring to GunsGerms, who is often faintly ridiculous in the things he says about Barnes. I mean, I'm not a fan of how he refs the game but come on.

He refs the games to the correct tackle and breakdown laws. I can see why an Irish follower would not be pleased by that.

PhilBB wrote:

Notch wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Notch wrote: I think people who question the integrity of referees and accuse officials of corruption with no evidence other than a few bad calls are.. let's say extremely toxic individuals. I think when things like that are thrown around with no basis its fairly disappointing.

.

Yet you refuse to accept that officials refereeing their colleagues and friends is bad practice. Until you realise that that FACT is a blight on the competition your team plays in, you'll probably continue to have little ding dongs around websites like this, and any discourse outside of a BT postcode.

It is utter delusion

They're not their colleagues and they are not their friends.

As they are paid and employed directly by the same organisation, please could you explain why you think that they are not colleagues?

Thanks.

Actually no ones determined who pays the referees

marty2086 wrote:
Actually no ones determined who pays the referees

Yes, we have. The IRFU Annual Report notes it.

The IRFU pays them.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Actually no ones determined who pays the referees

Yes, we have. The IRFU Annual Report notes it.

The IRFU pays them.

No actually it doesn't it states referee costs and referee development costs, it doesn't state what those costs entail whether it is the employment of referees or the cost of having refs taking charge of games in Ireland etc

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Actually no ones determined who pays the referees

Yes, we have. The IRFU Annual Report notes it.

The IRFU pays them.

No actually it doesn't it states referee costs and referee development costs, it doesn't state what those costs entail whether it is the employment of referees or the cost of having refs taking charge of games in Ireland etc

Your mate even produced a link to show who was an IRFU employee.

The word 'contracted' appears here: http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/34749.php#.VfaytLQirzI

http://www.stmaryscollegerfc.com/index.php/referee-section

IRFU contracted ref.

http://www.arlb.ie/?page_id=417

15 contracted referees.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Actually no ones determined who pays the referees

Yes, we have. The IRFU Annual Report notes it.

The IRFU pays them.

No actually it doesn't it states referee costs and referee development costs, it doesn't state what those costs entail whether it is the employment of referees or the cost of having refs taking charge of games in Ireland etc

Your mate even produced a link to show who was an IRFU employee.

The word 'contracted' appears here: http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/34749.php#.VfaytLQirzI

Yes one has a job as a referee development officer but that does not mean the IRFU pay him or others to referee the games in the Pro12 and some of those contracted referee in the AIL

Referees have to belong to one of the unions, would you prefer they moved to England, Wales, Scotland or somewhere else?

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Actually no ones determined who pays the referees

Yes, we have. The IRFU Annual Report notes it.

The IRFU pays them.

No actually it doesn't it states referee costs and referee development costs, it doesn't state what those costs entail whether it is the employment of referees or the cost of having refs taking charge of games in Ireland etc

Your mate even produced a link to show who was an IRFU employee.

The word 'contracted' appears here: http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/34749.php#.VfaytLQirzI

Yes one has a job as a referee development officer but that does not mean the IRFU pay him or others to referee the games in the Pro12 and some of those contracted referee in the AIL

Referees have to belong to one of the unions, would you prefer they moved to England, Wales, Scotland or somewhere else?

What would be preferable is for you to admit the blindingly obvious in that these referees are CONTRACTED and PAID by the IRFU.

They are, therefore, colleagues of the players in that regard.

So the evidence we have for this is the IRFU noting they have contracted referees and the IRFU having a cost for these referees. At least one other referee, Fitzgibbon, is ALSO a referee development officer, meaning an employee of the IRFU.

You do yourself no favours if you won't recognise the blindingly obvious facts.

Phil, there's a thread for your brand of nonsense, and this isn't it.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Actually no ones determined who pays the referees

Yes, we have. The IRFU Annual Report notes it.

The IRFU pays them.

No actually it doesn't it states referee costs and referee development costs, it doesn't state what those costs entail whether it is the employment of referees or the cost of having refs taking charge of games in Ireland etc

Your mate even produced a link to show who was an IRFU employee.

The word 'contracted' appears here: http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/34749.php#.VfaytLQirzI

Yes one has a job as a referee development officer but that does not mean the IRFU pay him or others to referee the games in the Pro12 and some of those contracted referee in the AIL

Referees have to belong to one of the unions, would you prefer they moved to England, Wales, Scotland or somewhere else?

What would be preferable is for you to admit the blindingly obvious in that these referees are CONTRACTED and PAID by the IRFU.

They are, therefore, colleagues of the players in that regard.

So the evidence we have for this is the IRFU noting they have contracted referees and the IRFU having a cost for these referees. At least one other referee, Fitzgibbon, is ALSO a referee development officer, meaning an employee of the IRFU.

You do yourself no favours if you won't recognise the blindingly obvious facts.

I have no problem saying they are contracted to the IRFU as Im pretty sure that's need by World Rugby but you have presented nothing blindingly obvious to say they are paid by the IRFU just vague descriptions that YOU conclude is blindingly obvious

Why would the IRFU pay refs to work for the Pro12 or any other organisation? That means the Pro12 get refs for free and if Im not mistaken a number of English refs have worked in the Pro12 in the past, do you think the RFU paid for that?

marty2086 wrote:

I have no problem saying they are contracted to the IRFU as Im pretty sure that's need by World Rugby but you have presented nothing blindingly obvious to say they are paid by the IRFU just vague descriptions that YOU conclude is blindingly obvious

Why would the IRFU pay refs to work for the Pro12 or any other organisation? That means the Pro12 get refs for free and if Im not mistaken a number of English refs have worked in the Pro12 in the past, do you think the RFU paid for that?

So that contract that you're aware of will have a payment attached to it - yes?

The IRFU is a joint shareholder in the PrO'12 and jointly runs the competition. As part of that, they also provide referees. The PrO'12 may pay the IRFU for use of its referees, but that would be the same as any sub contractor relationship where the employment resides with third party and, therefore, so do the wages.

It's not abnormal during a season for Unions to offer an exchange weekend, on a contra basis.

PhilBB wrote:

Notch wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Notch wrote: I think people who question the integrity of referees and accuse officials of corruption with no evidence other than a few bad calls are.. let's say extremely toxic individuals. I think when things like that are thrown around with no basis its fairly disappointing.

.

Yet you refuse to accept that officials refereeing their colleagues and friends is bad practice. Until you realise that that FACT is a blight on the competition your team plays in, you'll probably continue to have little ding dongs around websites like this, and any discourse outside of a BT postcode.

It is utter delusion

They're not their colleagues and they are not their friends.

As they are paid and employed directly by the same organisation, please could you explain why you think that they are not colleagues?

Thanks.

Would you call someone in a different branch of your organisation who you have no day to day interaction with a colleague? I suppose it's all in language. I would not use that word given the IRFU guarantees a healthy degree of separation between the professional teams and their referees. As is common amongst teams in a variety of competitions, including in Wales, referees are occasionally invited in to referee practice matches. That seems to be the full extent of their involvement with the provinces. They are not part of the team environment, they have a completely separate training schedule and management structure. Refereeing is handled independently within the IRFU and at no point does any coach of the national team or provincial teams, or any CEO or other managerial staff have a say into how the refs are managed.

I mean, who else would be paying for any of this if not the Unions? I'm pretty sure that the WRU funds Welsh referees and the RFU funds English referees. Does that impact on a Welsh referees ability to adjudicate on whether Sam Warburton is off his feet or not, given he is on a dual contract? Either he's a good referee or he's not. If you can't see that is insulting to question a referees integrity on that basis then I despair.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

I have no problem saying they are contracted to the IRFU as Im pretty sure that's need by World Rugby but you have presented nothing blindingly obvious to say they are paid by the IRFU just vague descriptions that YOU conclude is blindingly obvious

Why would the IRFU pay refs to work for the Pro12 or any other organisation? That means the Pro12 get refs for free and if Im not mistaken a number of English refs have worked in the Pro12 in the past, do you think the RFU paid for that?

So that contract that you're aware of will have a payment attached to it - yes?

The IRFU is a joint shareholder in the PrO'12 and jointly runs the competition. As part of that, they also provide referees. The PrO'12 may pay the IRFU for use of its referees, but that would be the same as any sub contractor relationship where the employment resides with third party and, therefore, so do the wages.

It's not abnormal during a season for Unions to offer an exchange weekend, on a contra basis.

That may be the case but that's far from blindingly obvious as you've previously stated

Notch wrote:

Would you call someone in a different branch of your organisation who you have no day to day interaction with a colleague? I suppose it's all in language. I would not use that word given the IRFU guarantees a healthy degree of separation between the professional teams and their referees. As is common amongst teams in a variety of competitions, including in Wales, referees are occasionally invited in to referee practice matches. That seems to be the full extent of their involvement with the provinces. They are not part of the team environment, they have a completely separate training schedule and management structure. Refereeing is handled independently within the IRFU and at no point does any coach of the national team or provincial teams, or any CEO or other managerial staff have a say into how the refs are managed.

I mean, who else would be paying for any of this if not the Unions? I'm pretty sure that the WRU funds Welsh referees and the RFU funds English referees. Does that impact on a Welsh referees ability to adjudicate on whether Sam Warburton is off his feet or not, given he is on a dual contract? Either he's a good referee or he's not. If you can't see that is insulting to question a referees integrity on that basis then I despair.

Yes, I'd call them a colleague. And I'd recognise that relationship when they visit my workplace every so weeks to deliver their specialist training.

Take those last two sentences of yours and tell me why Clancy can't referee an Ireland game. Is that an insult to his integrity or is your despair based on you spectacularly missing the point?

It seems that the Irish contributors on this board think of referees in binary terms - either cheats or not. Come on, folks, engage your brain a little.

marty2086 wrote:

That may be the case but that's far from blindingly obvious as you've previously stated

That rather depends on your perception abilities.

Munchkin wrote:Phil, there's a thread for your brand of IDIOTIC, PUERILE nonsense, and this isn't it.

Fixed that one for you Munch

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

That may be the case but that's far from blindingly obvious as you've previously stated

That rather depends on your perception abilities.

Touche.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

That may be the case but that's far from blindingly obvious as you've previously stated

That rather depends on your perception abilities.

Well when you say 'The PrO'12 may pay the IRFU for use of its referees', if its blindingly obvious either they do or they don't. The truth is you don't know either way, so your making a leap to blindingly obvious past the lack of concrete evidence to conclusions that suit your beliefs.

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

That may be the case but that's far from blindingly obvious as you've previously stated

That rather depends on your perception abilities.

Well when you say 'The PrO'12 may pay the IRFU for use of its referees', if its blindingly obvious either they do or they don't. The truth is you don't know either way, so your making a leap to blindingly obvious past the lack of concrete evidence to conclusions that suit your beliefs.

Oh dear. Oh dear. Oh dear.

It looks like this will have to go to Key Stage 2 in order to get the point through: whether the PrO'12 pay the IRFU for the use of its labour is utterly irrelevant to whether the IRFU pay the referees that work for the IRFU and are contracted to the IRFU.

What we have here is evidence of Irish referees working for the IRFU, being contracted to the IRFU and a huge sum paid by the IRFU for referees. If you still want to hang on to a belief that the IRFU contracted referees are not IRFU employees, and therefore colleagues of the IRFU contracted players (i.e. all of them) then please state that belief clearly.